Majora's Mask on the GameCube: Was it a Bad Port/Emulation?

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Are there a few legitimately bad changes in 3DS?   Actual bad changes, and not just "that's not how I remember it"?  Sure—I'll say them if you really want.  But I would highly, highly, highly recommend giving it a whirl yourself, if you want to analyze it.  I think you'll be in a much better spot for debating about it.

Alright, let's hear which of the changes actually bothered you.

[FionordeQuester]

47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alright, let's hear which of the changes actually bothered you.i

1) Nerrel was right about this: The Twinmold fight.  It's a wonderful idea having a Kaiju fight, and I'm glad Grezzo wasn't afraid to experiment...but this needed more testing.  There needed to be some sort of indication that his hit counter reset after burrowing down.  If he'd have had that (and also told you that your grapples did more damage by rotating the Analogue stick), it would've been perfect.

2) Nerrel was right about this: The Gyorg Trial on the Moon is a janky mess.  The ultra-precise Dolphin dives made that far more frustrating than it should have been.

3) Nerrel was right about this: The Deku & Zora movement, in general, are worse overall.  The Deku one is too minor for me to care, but it's still there nonetheless—the Zora movement, however, has screwed me in a few spots, since I'm an impatient sucker that can't stand going a few seconds slower.  As Nerrel said, players should have been able to toggle between N64 speed  & 3DS.

This still does not justify the amount of flak the 3DS has gotten.

4) ...This last one is down to taste (some'll like the challenge), but I wish the Inverted Song of Time was as fast as it was in N64.  It slowed time to 1/3rd in N64, but only 1/2 in 3DS.  I don't like being made to hurry up.

Edited July 10, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

1) Nerrel was right about this: The Twinmold fight.  It's a wonderful idea having a Kaiju fight, and I'm glad Grezzo wasn't afraid to experiment...but this needed more testing.  There needed to be some sort of indication that his hit counter reset after burrowing down.  If he'd have had that (and also told you that your grapples did more damage by rotating the Analogue stick), it would've been perfect.

Yeah, I find this the most indefensible change. It's fun for all of thirty seconds before it drops into the very frustrating territory. Not a bad idea in concept (especially with Attack on Titan being popular at the time), but very bad in execution.

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2) Nerrel was right about this: The Gyorg Trial on the Moon is a janky mess.  The ultra-precise Dolphin dives made that far more frustrating than it should have been.

I actually personally don't remember any issues with that.

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3) Nerrel was right about this: The Deku & Zora movement, in general, are worse overall.  The Deku one is too minor for me to care, but it's still there nonetheless—the Zora movement, however, has screwed me in a few spots, since I like fast-travel.  Still doesn't justify the amount of flak 3DS has gotten, however.

While leaving the Deku Playground might not be as impossible as the video suggests, I still do feel like the nerfed movement is annoying for much the same reasons as the Zora. It's minor, but it's something you'll be doing a lot and it's just not as much fun.

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4) ...This last one is down to taste (some'll appreciate the challenge), but I wish the Inverted Song of Time was as fast as it was in N64.  It slowed time to 1/3rd in N64, but only 1/2 in 3DS.  I don't like being made to hurry up.

I do sometimes feel like the Inverted Song of Time slowed things down too much in the original to the extent that there basically is no time limit on the game, but the new Inverted Song of Time makes it virtually impossible to do the 3 Day Challenge without glitches or exploits and that's a major shame.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Jotari

[FionordeQuester]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, I find this the most indefensible change. It's fun for all of thirty seconds before it drops into the very frustrating territory. Not a bad idea in concept (especially with Attack on Titan being popular at the time), but very bad in execution.

Indeed.

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I actually personally don't remember any issues with that.

...Huh.  How'd you do it, out of curiosity?  Any special trick you can recall?

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

While leaving the Deku Playground might not be as impossible as the video suggests, I still do feel like the nerfed movement is annoying for much the same reasons as the Zora. It's minor, but it's something you'll be doing a lot and it's just not as much fun.

Fair enough.

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I do sometimes feel like the Inverted Song of Time slowed things down too much in the original to the extent that there basically is no time limit on the game, but the new Inverted Song of Time makes it virtually impossible to do the 3 Day Challenge without glitches or exploits and that's a major shame.

Hard to find that happy medium, eh?

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

...Huh.  How'd you do it, out of curiosity?  Any special trick you can recall?

Well just by playing well and finding the right method through. I like how it's more involved than the original which is kind of just random selection.

 

[FionordeQuester]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well just by playing well and finding the right method through. I like how it's more involved than the original which is kind of just random selection.

Sounds like I need to give that another look, then.  Nice to know there is something I'm missing 🙂 !

[FionordeQuester]

In any case, here's 4 other ways of beating Oldolwa—three of them with Bow & Bombs.  I did this on a keyboard, so please forgive the jerky movement 😞 ...

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

10 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Your problem isn't your autism or your communication.  Your problem is that you're using someone else's arguments on a version of the game you've never played before.  You're doing this while debating someone who has played it before, has constructed his own arguments, and is willing to record video to back up his points.

Forgive me: yesterday, I meant to add: "To be clear, I'm not taking anyone's side or anything; I'm just pointing out the argumentation and the different points being made" to my post yesterday, but I was really tired and forgot. With that most recent reply, I was mainly trying to focus on where I thought you had misunderstood his argument or presented something that countered a different argument from the one you said you were countering.

 

7 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

1) Nerrel was right about this: The Twinmold fight.  It's a wonderful idea having a Kaiju fight, and I'm glad Grezzo wasn't afraid to experiment...but this needed more testing.  There needed to be some sort of indication that his hit counter reset after burrowing down.  If he'd have had that (and also told you that your grapples did more damage by rotating the Analogue stick), it would've been perfect.

2) Nerrel was right about this: The Gyorg Trial on the Moon is a janky mess.  The ultra-precise Dolphin dives made that far more frustrating than it should have been.

3) Nerrel was right about this: The Deku & Zora movement, in general, are worse overall.  The Deku one is too minor for me to care, but it's still there nonetheless—the Zora movement, however, has screwed me in a few spots, since I'm an impatient sucker that can't stand going a few seconds slower.  As Nerrel said, players should have been able to toggle between N64 speed  & 3DS.

This still does not justify the amount of flak the 3DS has gotten.

4) ...This last one is down to taste (some'll like the challenge), but I wish the Inverted Song of Time was as fast as it was in N64.  It slowed time to 1/3rd in N64, but only 1/2 in 3DS.  I don't like being made to hurry up.

1) Again, I haven't actually played the fight, but I honestly think it would've been better if they didn't add the wrestling and just had you cut him to pieces with your sword in giant form like the original. I mean, it just seems like it would feel better (and probably be less tedious).

Plus, if I I could grab a snake-like enemy in one hand, I wouldn't grab its tail and wrestle it (it might turn around and attack); I'd grab its neck and snap it. 

2) Interesting. I can't really say more than that.

3) I can agree about that; I never got as far as the Great Bay before, but I saw my brother do so, and the zora swimming looked really fun. Why tie that to magic? As for Deku Link's movement, I have to say that I really like pulling off spin-attack hopping on the water, and I can imagine not having that would make the swamp a bit more tedious.

4) Wait; they seriously nerfed the inverted song of time in the 3DS version? I can't see why they'd do that; I'm not far in the game yet, but I honestly feel that the inverted song of time, as it is now, just gives me enough room to breathe, especially when it comes to the side-content and mini-games. I get that you're supposed to be constantly against the clock, but with Zelda games, you're also supposed to be careful and observant and take at least a bit of time exploring and looking around.

I just cleared the Swamp Skulltula House yesterday, and it took almost half in-game day for me to complete it even with the inverted song of time (mainly because it took a while for me to realize that you're supposed to roll into the giant jars as human Link; since that's what you're supposed to do for the boxes, I figured the jars, being something else entirely, would require a different solutionl I tried throwing bombs into them as human Link and dropping deku nuts into them as Deku Link).

 

Out of curiosity, what did you think of his point about change to the ice arrows, or the change to the Gyorg fight?

 

Also, going back to the N64 version for a sec, is there a trick to aiming where the deku nuts will fall when flying as Deku Link? I haven't been able to be accurate with them while moving. In the Deku Palace, I tried dropping Deku Nuts on the deku scrubs, but I had to stop and fly directly above them, and by the time I got into position where I could drop a deku nut and be certain it would hit the scrub, the scrub would shoot me out of the air with a deku seed. Eventually, I gave up trying to use the deku nuts on them and used the bubbles instead.

[FionordeQuester]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Forgive me: yesterday, I meant to add: "To be clear, I'm not taking anyone's side or anything; I'm just pointing out the argumentation and the different points being made" to my post yesterday, but I was really tired and forgot. With that most recent reply, I was mainly trying to focus on where I thought you had misunderstood his argument or presented something that countered a different argument from the one you said you were countering.

I see.  And you're certain you haven't made any decisions regarding how you feel about the 3DS version?

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1) Again, I haven't actually played the fight, but I honestly think it would've been better if they didn't add the wrestling and just had you cut him to pieces with your sword in giant form like the original. I mean, it just seems like it would feel better (and probably be less tedious).

I think it would've been fun, with more testing.  I thought the wrestling animations and roars were awesome!

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2) Interesting. I can't really say more than that.

And it seems I might just not have figured out the right way to do it yet—will check shortly.

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3) I can agree about that; I never got as far as the Great Bay before, but I saw my brother do so, and the zora swimming looked really fun. Why tie that to magic? As for Deku Link's movement, I have to say that I really like pulling off spin-attack hopping on the water, and I can imagine not having that would make the swamp a bit more tedious.

It's not a big deal—in some ways, I appreciate the challenge.  Progress is certainly slower, though.

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4) Wait; they seriously nerfed the inverted song of time in the 3DS version? I can't see why they'd do that; I'm not far in the game yet, but I honestly feel that the inverted song of time, as it is now, just gives me enough room to breathe, especially when it comes to the side-content and mini-games. I get that you're supposed to be constantly against the clock, but with Zelda games, you're also supposed to be careful and observant and take at least a bit of time exploring and looking around.

That's a problem with Majora's Mask in general, I feel—yet some folks enjoy that very same feeling.  Those guys'd love it, I imagine.

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I just cleared the Swamp Skulltula House yesterday, and it took almost half in-game day for me to complete it even with the inverted song of time...

Ah—well here's a tip: Play the Song of Double Time inside it.  You'll get the "Your notes echo far, but nothing happens" text, and it'll just hang there, freezing the clock.

That was a new exploit introduced in the 3DS version.  N64 froze you in place until you cleared the text.  Weird but...definitely helpful!

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Out of curiosity, what did you think of his point about change to the ice arrows...,

The Ice Arrows never allowed you to make platforms wherever you wanted, even in N64. In fact, it'd be easier to list the places you could:

1) Woodfall Temple (pointless—you probably already did it)

2) Great Bay Temple (for progression reasons)

3) Zora Hall exterior (likely an oversight—also made it possible to fall out of bounds)

4) Ikana Canyon (for progression reasons)

5) Stone Tower Temple (likely an oversight—made the compass easier to get than they probably intended)

Yet another myth Nerrel perpetuated (or repeated from wherever he may've heard it from).  Don't believe me?  Try it out at "Great Bay Region" (where you rescued Mikau), or Pirate's Fortress (where the guards are on boats), or...really anywhere else besides what I listed.

In conclusion, the 3DS did not nerf the Ice Arrows—they just fixed a few programming errors, and made it more consistent.  They also added sparkles for people who had trouble completing dungeons before the moon crashed (like the AVGN, when he reviewed Majora's Mask).

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...or the change to the Gyorg fight?

 I loved it!  The fight was far too simple, and far too easy, in N64, so I loved that they added an entire 2nd phase!  I had no trouble with the mines, either—the game made it completely clear what I was supposed to do without holding my hand the entire way.  My skill level mattered!  It was like how Barinade was in OoT (my favorite boss from that game)!

And if you didn't want to do that?  You could just make ice platforms and shoot him to death.  You needed to prep for that, of course—and of course, you needed to have impeccable aim.  But man did you feel clever when you pulled it off 😄 !

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Eventually, I gave up trying to use the deku nuts on them and used the bubbles instead.

That's what I always did, too.  That or spin attacks.

Edited July 10, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

49 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

I see.  And you're certain you haven't made any decisions regarding how you feel about the 3DS version?

None in terms of its quality, though I have made some in regards to both its development and its discourse.

 

50 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

That's a problem with Majora's Mask in general, I feel—yet some folks enjoy that very same feeling.  Those guys'd love it, I imagine.

I don't know what you mean by this, and I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

To clarify, I was trying to say that Zelda games typically are about taking your time to be observant and figure things out, while Majora's Mask still does that, it also has the player under a constant, yet infinitely-resettable, timer, so it's an interesting tight-rope of expecting the player to be fast and expecting the player to take their time, and I think the way the songs of time work in the N64 version mostly pulls that off that difficult balance, with the only thing I'd want being more intervals available when playing the song of double time. So, I think nerfing the inverted song of time leans too hard in the "race against the clock" aspect. Does that make sense?

 

58 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

The Ice Arrows never allowed you to make platforms wherever you wanted, even in N64. In fact, it'd be easier to list the places you could:

1) Woodfall Temple (pointless—you probably already did it)

2) Great Bay Temple (for progression reasons)

3) Zora Hall exterior (likely an oversight—also made it possible to fall out of bounds)

4) Ikana Canyon (for progression reasons)

5) Stone Tower Temple (likely an oversight—made the compass easier to get than they probably intended)

Yet another myth Nerrel perpetuated (or repeated from wherever he may've heard it from).  Don't believe me?  Try it out at "Great Bay Region" (where you rescued Mikau), or Pirate's Fortress (where the guards are on boats), or...really anywhere else besides what I listed.

In conclusion, the 3DS did not nerf the Ice Arrows—they just fixed a few programming errors, and made it more consistent.  They also added sparkles for people who had trouble completing dungeons before the moon crashed (like the AVGN, when he reviewed Majora's Mask).

To be fair to Nerrel, from the context, I'm pretty sure he meant "shoot anywhere within the bodies of water" as in, "there are no sparkly bits in the water that are the only places you can shoot to create the ice". If the ice arrows don't work on every body of water... okay, but his main complaint was the addition of the sparkly bits telling the player exactly where to shoot (and being the only places that freeze in the bodies of water where it did work), meaning there's nothing for the player to have to figure out, as well as the fact that the water in the Gyorg boss room doesn't sparkle; meaning players are likely to think that it can't be frozen even though it can, and nothing you've pointed out has disputed either of these.

If a player got stuck because they couldn't figure out a good path to create with the ice arrows, then why not, for just one possible example, have it that Tatl can guide the player as an option for those who are stuck? You can press the button for a hint from Tatl, and Tatl could fly over the next area to freeze. That way, those who want to figure it out for themselves still can.

 

1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

That's what I always did, too.  That or spin attacks.

Okay; I just wanted to know if there was a trick to getting better with dropping the deku nuts on enemies.

[FionordeQuester]

16 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

None in terms of its quality, though I have made some in regards to both its development and its discourse.

Sure.

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To clarify, I was trying to say that Zelda games typically are about taking your time to be observant and figure things out, while Majora's Mask still does that, it also has the player under a constant, yet infinitely-resettable, timer, so it's an interesting tight-rope of expecting the player to be fast and expecting the player to take their time, and I think the way the songs of time work in the N64 version mostly pulls that off that difficult balance, with the only thing I'd want being more intervals available when playing the song of double time. So, I think nerfing the inverted song of time leans too hard in the "race against the clock" aspect. Does that make sense?

It does—however, I imagine there are others who believed the Inverted Song of Time was too strong in N64.  So, while I personally dislike the nerf, I don't think either of us can hold it against the 3DS.  At most, we can call it a decision we both disagree agree with.

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To be fair to Nerrel, from the context, I'm pretty sure he meant "shoot anywhere within the bodies of water" as in, "there are no sparkly bits in the water that are the only places you can shoot to create the ice". If the ice arrows don't work on every body of water... okay, but his main complaint was the addition of the sparkly bits telling the player exactly where to shoot (and being the only places that freeze in the bodies of water where it did work)...

That was one of his complaints, sure.  But, I came away from his video with the impression that he was  also saying they worked everywhere—that N64's Ice Arrows encouraged exploration and experimentation in a way that 3DS does not (which is hogwash). 

I apologize to him if that wasn't what he meant.  Either way, it's nice to finally have a visual cue for what water I can freeze, and what water I can (especially since I'm under a time limit).

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...meaning there's nothing for the player to have to figure out, as well as the fact that the water in the Gyorg boss room doesn't sparkle; meaning players are likely to think that it can't be frozen even though it can, and nothing you've pointed out has disputed either of these.

True—but I also think it would have looked silly to have an entire boss room surrounded in bright yellow sparkles.  Maybe that's why they made that exception?

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If a player got stuck because they couldn't figure out a good path to create with the ice arrows, then why not, for just one possible example, have it that Tatl can guide the player as an option for those who are stuck?

Because then I'm wondering "what's different about the water itself?".  At least with their way, I know "sparkly water freezes, normal water does not".  

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Okay; I just wanted to know if there was a trick to getting better with dropping the deku nuts on enemies.

Hmm...I think it's just practice?  Again though, I don't usually bother—especially since Deku Nuts are lost so easily to the Song of Time.

Edited July 10, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

45 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

The Ice Arrows never allowed you to make platforms wherever you wanted, even in N64. In fact, it'd be easier to list the places you could:

1) Woodfall Temple (pointless—you probably already did it)

2) Great Bay Temple (for progression reasons)

3) Zora Hall exterior (likely an oversight—also made it possible to fall out of bounds)

4) Ikana Canyon (for progression reasons)

5) Stone Tower Temple (likely an oversight—made the compass easier to get than they probably intended)

Yet another myth Nerrel perpetuated (or repeated from wherever he may've heard it from).  Don't believe me?  Try it out at "Great Bay Region" (where you rescued Mikau), or Pirate's Fortress (where the guards are on boats), or...really anywhere else besides what I listed.

In conclusion, the 3DS did not nerf the Ice Arrows—they just fixed a few programming errors, and made it more consistent.  They also added sparkles for people who had trouble completing dungeons before the moon crashed (like the AVGN, when he reviewed Majora's Mask).

Honestly from that list it seems more like the area where you rescue Mikau is more of the oversight than the Zora Hall exterior. As they're both basically the same area. Aside from there you've kind of listed pretty much all the deep water areas in the game. Where else is there? The beaver area and that's pretty much it. All the other bodies of water are small shallow areas like the Laundry Pool. Playing the original game one certainly doesn't get the impression that the ice arrows freeze "special" pools of water. You get the impression that it freezes all water and as a result it works pretty much everywhere you'd expect to try it and see it work. I don't see a sparkling sign saying "Use Ice Arrows here" as the solution, I see making it so it actually does work everywhere as preferable. It's a much more interesting and cooler mechanic if it does work on all water, letting you do things like get the compass in Stone Tower more easily should you be innovative to realize that's something you can do.

[FionordeQuester]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Honestly from that list it seems more like the area where you rescue Mikau is more of the oversight than the Zora Hall exterior. As they're both basically the same area. Aside from there you've kind of listed pretty much all the deep water areas in the game.

What about the Pirate's Fortress?

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I don't see a sparkling sign saying "Use Ice Arrows here" as the solution, I see making it so it actually does work everywhere as preferable. It's a much more interesting and cooler mechanic if it does work on all water, letting you do things like get the compass in Stone Tower more easily should you be innovative to realize that's something you can do.

I did think of that, as well...but I also think you would've had to test everything to make sure you didn't break something.  Like, say...the new fishing mini-game they added in...or stuff like this:

 

 

[Jotari]

29 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

What about the Pirate's Fortress?

You already mentioned it.

29 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

I did think of that, as well...but I also think you would've had to test everything to make sure you didn't break something.  Like, say...the new fishing mini-game they added in...or stuff like this:

 

 

Honestly I don't see using the ice arrows to go out of bounds in Great Bay as a problem. I think it's pretty cool. But were people developing the game and realized it were possible, it'd be a simple enough fix to put an area barrier above the water as well as below. The way I see it the ice arrows are intended to work everywhere, and the result is that they made them work in all of the dungeons, Ikana Canyon and the area right outside the dungeon. All the places the expect people to use them. Even Ikana Canyon freezing the water isn't required to progress, as you actually have to freeze the octoroks to cross the canyon, not the water itself, but they expect people to use the Ice Arrows there so the water is freezable even though it doesn't need to be. All the areas beyond that? Well there was like half a month of development time for the game and there wasn't much need to make any other water freezable as they rightfully guessed players wouldn't use them in those areas as there's no obvious advantage to it. And that's why players think the effect has been paired down to special pools when it didn't actually change. But for a remake, I think they absolutely could and should have just made every deep patch of water freezable. It's not like the  special water in Ikana Canyon is magic while the same water flowing into the swamp isn't. It makes more sense for all water to be freezable. And if it breaks something crucial? Well that's why you play test a game and put quality assurance into it. If it breaks something non crucial? Well then cool, I can go visit the Great Bay Temple and discover it's actually a really tiny model.

[FionordeQuester]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The way I see it the ice arrows are intended to work everywhere, and the result is that they made them work in all of the dungeons, Ikana Canyon and the area right outside the dungeon...All the areas beyond that? Well there was like half a month of development time for the game and there wasn't much need to make any other water freezable... And that's why players think the effect has been paired down to special pools when it didn't actually change...

Hmm...wait.  Crud, there was a big one I missed—Great Bay Region after you beat Gyorg (not before).  You can do some pretty funky things with this, and Mikau, as it turns out:

So I guess it's a matter of "is it worth it"?  I'll admit that platforms everywhere would have been cool...but I can also see why they wouldn't want to take extra time play-testing a feature that would have minimal practical use (since I'll want to conserve my magic).

Edited July 10, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Hmm...wait.  Crud, there was a big one I missed—Great Bay Region after you beat Gyorg (not before).  You can do some pretty funky things with this, and Mikau, as it turns out:

So I guess it's a matter of "exploration" vs "consistency"?  I'll admit that platforms everywhere would have been cool...but I can also see why they wouldn't want to take extra time play-testing a feature that would have minimal practical use.

Ah, I did think it was odd that that area didn't allow ice arrow use. And the fact that you can after beating the boss (ie after the developers expect you to have ice arrows, despite the fact that you can time travel to undo that flag) further convinces me that the intention was for all water to be freezable, but only wanting to do the water they expect players to freeze due to a short development time. The fun little glitch you have Mikau himself there wouldn't need to be factored in considering he vanishes for good after you get the Zora mask (which is obviously required to get the ice arrows).

[FionordeQuester]

...Huh.  Yeah, it looks like even Song of Time doesn't bring 'em back.  So I suppose that glitch'd only be possible with...well, glitches.

[FionordeQuester]

Before discussion starts up again, I want to be clear, in case Vanguard is nervous at all.

I have absolutely no ill will toward you, or anyone else who prefers the N64.  Just the opposite—you appear to be like me: Someone who enjoys analyzing and critiquing all the media he consumes.  I do the same in each and every one of my Let's Plays. 

However, the 3DS remake of Majora's Mask is one of the most misunderstood remakes I can remember coming across.  I see people complaining about problems that (for the most part) literally don't exist.  That, and making mountains out of molehills about the few that do.  Even the phrasing people use is strangely uniform—as though I'm hearing one person's voice out of multiple different people.  I don't know why that is, but I suspect clickbait videos like Nerrel's play a part. 

If I seem unusually blunt, it's because I'm trying to encourage you—as strongly as I know how (without being a jerk)—to play the 3DS yourself, or compliment your research with words from someone who both likes the 3DS version and has played it to completion.  It's not just a personal plea—it's also advice from one analyst to another.  

You understand where I'm coming from, now?

Edited July 11, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Before discussion starts up again, I want to be clear, in case Vanguard is nervous at all.

I have absolutely no ill will toward you, or anyone else who prefers the N64.  Just the opposite—you appear to be like me: Someone who enjoys analyzing and critiquing all the media he consumes.  I do the same in each and every one of my Let's Plays. 

However, the 3DS remake of Majora's Mask is one of the most misunderstood remakes I can remember coming across.  I see people complaining about problems that (for the most part) literally don't exist.  That, and making mountains out of molehills about the few that do.  Even the phrasing people use is strangely uniform—as though I'm hearing one person's voice out of multiple different people.  I don't know why that is, but I suspect clickbait videos like Nerrel's play a part. 

If I seem unusually blunt, it's because I'm trying to encourage you—as strongly as I know how (without being a jerk)—to play the 3DS yourself, or compliment your research with words from someone who both likes the 3DS version and has played it to completion.  It's not just a personal plea—it's also advice from one analyst to another.  

You understand where I'm coming from, now?

I wouldn't say it's entirely base don videos like Nerrel's. I have never seen that video until this thread, nor do I recall ever watching any videos on the subject, but a lot of the points brought up did resonate with me. Now maybe some of them aren't as bad as they seem, like the ice arrows not actually being changed, or the Zora swimming not actually being that slow, but as I said on that second point earlier, perception matters. And forwhatever reason,  a lot of the changes did strike a bad cord with a lot of the fan base. I think the casualisation of it is definitely and aspect too. One of the things Nerrel briefly mentions is how in the original using the Song of Time to save feels meaningful, as it finally feels like you can log your progress and actually accomplish something. That's something that really resonated with me because it's not something I've put into words before, but it is how I feel about Majora's Mask. A comparison that Nerrel doesn't use, but which is quite apt here, would be like passing a Fire Emblem chapter. If it's a particularly hard chapter it might take you over an hour, but when you pass it you have that immense feeling of relief. In the meantime, Suspend saves are available, just like Owl Saves, but they're not really logging your progress, they're just there to break up the gameplay in case you can't spend over an hour playing the game. Majora's Mask 3DS basically enforced Battle Saves and made it so you can save anywhere. And well, that's great for some people, we have casual mode and battle saves in modern Fire Emblem titles too and I don't begrudge people who enjoy it, but it's also typically an optional mode in Fire Emblem and I kind of wish it were for Majora's Mask too. I understand that people want the more convenient package, but that's not the experience best tailored to me, and I think people with similar values sets to me were put off by a lot of small changes like this. Different strokes for different folks basically.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

Before discussion starts up again, I want to be clear, in case Vanguard is nervous at all.

I have absolutely no ill will toward you, or anyone else who prefers the N64.  Just the opposite—you appear to be like me: Someone who enjoys analyzing and critiquing all the media he consumes.  I do the same in each and every one of my Let's Plays. 

However, the 3DS remake of Majora's Mask is one of the most misunderstood remakes I can remember coming across.  I see people complaining about problems that (for the most part) literally don't exist.  That, and making mountains out of molehills about the few that do.  Even the phrasing people use is strangely uniform—as though I'm hearing one person's voice out of multiple different people.  I don't know why that is, but I suspect clickbait videos like Nerrel's play a part. 

If I seem unusually blunt, it's because I'm trying to encourage you—as strongly as I know how (without being a jerk)—to play the 3DS yourself, or compliment your research with words from someone who both likes the 3DS version and has played it to completion.  It's not just a personal plea—it's also advice from one analyst to another.  

You understand where I'm coming from, now?

If I am nervous, it's only because this thread was mainly about the GameCube emulation of the game and I don't want to risk the topic getting derailed too much. Don't get me wrong; I like talking about the 3DS remake; I'm just saying that the conversation should circle back to the Collector's Edition every now and then when relevant.

I too prefer analyzing and critiquing the media I consume, but in my case, it's because I'm an aspiring writer & developer, so all that analysis and critique is going towards seeing what works and what doesn't a lesson to keep in mind when going to make my own work. I'm currently writing my own fantasy war novel.

Ah, yes; 'the phrasing of the complaints are somewhat uniform, so it must be because a couple reviews told them all to think this way and they're just regurgitating it.' I've always vehemently disliked that accusation because, from what I've seen, people tend to use critiques and reviews in part to help find the words to explain something they felt but couldn't communicate; I even do it all the time because I struggle with explaining stuff sometimes do to my autism. Another reason I dislike it is that I've seen it used all the time by defenders to dismiss criticism, and it ignores the fact that people are capable of independently coming to similar conclusions and even phrasing it similarly because there are only so many ways to say it. More than a few times now within the last half-a-decade, I've had the unpleasant experience where I voiced my criticisms of something (and they were criticisms I came up with entirely on my own because I hadn't watched any reviews or anything yet) only to immediately be met with an angry accusation that I just regurgitated something some reviewer said. I have to say; being angrily told that your thoughts aren't your own as a way to dismiss those thoughts is not a fun experience in the slightest.

 

This is unrelated, but recently, since I'm going to be heading to the Woodfall Temple soon in my Majora's Mask playthrough, I tried fighting the spinners in the Forest Maze because I figured they'd be present in the dungeon. I kept trying to block their attacks and then strike their head when it poked out, but it never worked, even when I clearly hit the head. I then read Tatl's advice, which said, "These things never expose their weakspot", and I was thinking, "Their head pokes out all the time though?" I tried using deku nuts to stun them, and nothing. Eventually, I gave up and looked online, and I found out that their weakness is their underside, not their head.

Yes, because when I always think of a turtle's weakspot, I always think of the hard bottom side of their hard shell, not their fleshy unarmoured head. Anyone else have a moment like this at some point, where the basic solution to something in this game ran counter to what you were thinking or what seemed like the intuitive solution? I ask because this has happened to me twice now (I already mentioned my reaction to the large jars in the Swamp Skulltula House).

[FionordeQuester]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I wouldn't say it's entirely based on videos like Nerrel's. I have never seen that video until this thread, nor do I recall ever watching any videos on the subject, but a lot of the points brought up did resonate with me.

Fair enough.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Now maybe some of them aren't as bad as they seem, like the ice arrows not actually being changed, or the Zora swimming not actually being that slow, but as I said on that second point earlier, perception matters. And for whatever reason, a lot of the changes did strike a bad cord with a lot of the fan base.

I see.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think the casualisation of it is definitely and aspect too...That's something [I haven't been able to] put into words before... [Specific examples I read, but trimmed so the quote block wouldn't be too long]...I understand that people want the more convenient package, but that's not the experience best tailored to me, and I think people with  similar values sets me to were put off...Different strokes for different folks basically.

Well said.  I have thoughts on that, but I'm not sure if it's good to share 'em here or in the thread I made.  What do you think?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

Fair enough.

I see.

Well said.  I have thoughts on that, but I'm not sure if it's good to share 'em here or in the thread I made.  What do you think?

Well I would have said that I think the topic of Majora's Mask is just niche enough to talk it out here, but since you've went and made the other thread, we might as well head over there.

[vanguard333]

…I inadvertently killed this thread by asking that the conversation about the 3DS remake circle back to discussing the GameCube port; didn't I?

Anyway, I just cleared Woodfall Temple. It was surprisingly more straightforward than I expected. As for Odolwa... I agree with what Nerrel said about the N64 version of Odolwa, though he does seem a bit... slower... than I was expecting. It was still a fun and chaotic fight; I particularly enjoyed exploiting when he dances to stun him and get close enough to attack with the Kokiri Sword.

[FionordeQuester]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

…I inadvertently killed this thread by asking that the conversation about the 3DS remake circle back to discussing the GameCube port; didn't I?

 

Eh, give it 5 days.  If there's still no one else posting, then...yep, you killed it xD!

[vanguard333]

Well, the number of crashes has gone from one to two. 

I was going through Snowhead Temple and, well, having a bad time of it as I haven't gotten used to the Goron rolling and it's way too easy to plummet and lose progress. Seriously, I fell off the way to the temple enough times that it was past noon on the First Day by the time I actually reached the temple's entrance (and yes; I did put Biggoron to sleep; the lost time was from me plummeting off a ledge while rolling). Seriously; the camera angle when rolling is good for seeing what's around you, but not what's up ahead (which is frankly a lot more important), and the steering for Goron Link at full speed is so sensitive that even the smallest nudge to correct his angle will send him veering off. I ended up walking up most of the spiral path that leads to the entrance.

Anyway, going back to the crash: I powered on through the temple anyway. It was something like 2:00pm on the Second Day when I got the boss key, and now I just needed to destroy the ice blocks, get the last stray fairy, and proceed to the boss room. Since I could look down and see the bridges below, I decided to gently roll down to them so I could destroy the blocks without having to backtrack through all those rooms when I'm short on time. I got the aim correct at first, but on my attempt to get down to the first set of blocks, I veered too far forward, fell all the way to the first floor, and got hurt as a result. While Goron Link was in the middle of his pain animation, I paused the game to look at the map and see where I was. When I un-paused, the game immediately crashed. So, I learned two lessons:

1. Don't pause the game while Link is in pain.

2. Goron Link sucks, and, before attempting the Goron Race, I should spend a while just rolling around and "getting gud".

I saved before going to the temple, just to be clear, so this really just means I have to do the temple all over again... yay; more endless rolling and plummeting off ledges... Seriously, did anyone else find the Goron rolling a pain, or am I the only one finding it completely unintuitive and twitchy?!