Are there any games or situations where growth units are better than base-high or prepromote units?

[vanguard333]

On 7/7/2021 at 3:06 PM, Fabulously Olivier said:

Mia isn't a good standard for comparison because she isn't a good unit. Zihark can actually grow comparatively well.

I agree with this. Mia develops good skill and speed, and vantage is definitely a good skill for a swordmaster character to have by default, but her strength rarely ends up well enough for her to actually defeat opponents. Zihark, meanwhile, actually develops good stats all around.

Interestingly, on the playthrough where I used both Zihark and Stefan, I found that Zihark's often a lot more likely to dodge attacks than Stefan is. I wonder why that is? The only reason for that that I can think of would be Stefan's atrocious luck stat, as that and defense were the only two stats where my Stefan was significantly worse than my Zihark. I suppose it might've also been their supports, but I don't think I actually got around to either of them having supports yet. But it has been a long time since that playthrough.

Edited July 9, 2021 by vanguard333

[ping]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Interestingly, on the playthrough were I used both Zihark and Stefan, I found that Zihark's often more a lot likely to dodge attacks than Stefan is. I wonder why that is? The only reason for that that I can think of would be Stefan's atrocious luck stat, as that and defense were the only two stats where my Stefan was significantly worse than my Zihark. I suppose it might've also been their supports, but I don't think I actually got around to either of them having supports yet. But it has been a long time since that playthrough.

Luck gives 1:1 Avoid in PoR, so that's around 5-7 points of difference between Zihark and Stefan. If Zihark has any supports, he gets another 5 points per level (w/ Ilyana and Brom) or 7.5 points (w/ Muarim), thanks to Zihark's Earth and Muarim's Thunder affinities. Stefan only gets 2.5 Avoid per support level with Soren, thanks to Soren's Dark affinity.

(I personally don't think Zihark is any better than Mia, because she's at least present in a couple maps where you're short on options and they're both not very useful past Zihark's joining time, but that's a matter of perspective)

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Speaking of PoR - in a class-by-class case, Soren and Ilyana are better than Calill and Bastian, right?

And in BinBla, two of the three best units are not promoted when they join, although for both Rutger and Milady, their base stats carry them quite far, especially Milady.

[vanguard333]

44 minutes ago, ping said:

Luck gives 1:1 Avoid in PoR, so that's around 5-7 points of difference between Zihark and Stefan. If Zihark has any supports, he gets another 5 points per level (w/ Ilyana and Brom) or 7.5 points (w/ Muarim), thanks to Zihark's Earth and Muarim's Thunder affinities. Stefan only gets 2.5 Avoid per support level with Soren, thanks to Soren's Dark affinity.

(I personally don't think Zihark is any better than Mia, because she's at least present in a couple maps where you're short on options and they're both not very useful past Zihark's joining time, but that's a matter of perspective)

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Speaking of PoR - in a class-by-class case, Soren and Ilyana are better than Calill and Bastian, right?

And in BinBla, two of the three best units are not promoted when they join, although for both Rutger and Milady, their base stats carry them quite far, especially Milady.

Ah, so it was probably both the luck stat and supports. That makes a lot of sense.

 

Yeah; Soren and Ilyana are better than Bastian and Calill, mainly for one reason: they can use staves upon promotion if the player chooses wisely, while Bastian and Calill are locked into having knives as their second weapon type.

I personally would also suggest that another reason Soren's better is that he has the adept skill by default, and having an occasional extra follow-up attack is very useful; it's one of those things that you never want to plan your strategy around because it's based on chance, but makes things a lot easier when it happens and it happens often enough to make a noticeable impact.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, ping said:

Speaking of PoR - in a class-by-class case, Soren and Ilyana are better than Calill and Bastian, right?

Being able to staffbot, with far greater availability, does help Soren and Ilyana. But if we set aside those two things and focus purely on stats and combat, Calill is near identical to Ilyana.

• 20/6 Ilyana: HP 32.1 Str 7.5 Mag 18 Skl 20.1 Spd 16.4 Lck 14.1 Def 7.7 Res 21
• Base (level 6) Calill: 32/8/19/18/18/16/8/17

Growths to 20/20 see them tied in HP, Str, Mag, and Lck. Ilyana has a 2-3 point Skl lead and 6-7 Res, Calill has 3-4 Spd, 3-5 Def. 

That Spd lead would say Calill wins to me vs. Ilyana.

Soren will have 2 Mag lead at 20/6, 6 Skl, and maybe 2 Spd -albeit with 5 less Str should you opt for Elthunder over forged Thunder. Soren should have a 5 Mag lead, but merely 1 Spd (and the same Res advantage as Ilyana, and a 4 point Skl lead), which isn't really all that much over Calill.

Bastian does have great growths actually, 65/65/55 Mag/Skl/Spd is wicked, but his bases are so bad and his levels to use those growths so few that ends up being the worst of the five outside of Str and Def. Yet even then, his 20/20 Spd is but a point or two lower than Ilyana's and his Mag the same compared to Calill. He is hardly unusable or FE11 Midia/Arran horrendous. -Not that this prevents magic users from being bad in PoR.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[samthedigital]

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Soren will have 2 Mag lead at 20/6, 6 Skl, and maybe 2 Spd -albeit with 5 less Str should you opt for Elthunder over forged Thunder. Soren should have a 5 Mag lead, but merely 1 Spd (and the same Res advantage as Ilyana, and a 4 point Skl lead), which isn't really all that much over Calill.

I don't remember if it matters a whole lot, but Calill's strength lets her double with long range tomes more often. She can also use them at base. I don't know how much time it takes to get Soren or Ilyana's weapon ranks up. Soren's support with Ike is also a factor that should be considered.

I think that it's worth mentioning Tormod too just based on the fact that Celerity is amazing. I'd at least give him an edge on Ilyana because of it.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Being able to staffbot, with far greater availability, does help Soren and Ilyana. But if we set aside those two things and focus purely on stats and combat, Calill is near identical to Ilyana.

• 20/6 Ilyana: HP 32.1 Str 7.5 Mag 18 Skl 20.1 Spd 16.4 Lck 14.1 Def 7.7 Res 21
• Base (level 6) Calill: 32/8/19/18/18/16/8/17

Growths to 20/20 see them tied in HP, Str, Mag, and Lck. Ilyana has a 2-3 point Skl lead and 6-7 Res, Calill has 3-4 Spd, 3-5 Def. 

That Spd lead would say Calill wins to me vs. Ilyana.

Soren will have 2 Mag lead at 20/6, 6 Skl, and maybe 2 Spd -albeit with 5 less Str should you opt for Elthunder over forged Thunder. Soren should have a 5 Mag lead, but merely 1 Spd (and the same Res advantage as Ilyana, and a 4 point Skl lead), which isn't really all that much over Calill.

Bastian does have great growths actually, 65/65/55 Mag/Skl/Spd is wicked, but his bases are so bad and his levels to use those growths so few that ends up being the worst of the five outside of Str and Def. Yet even then, his 20/20 Spd is but a point or two lower than Ilyana's and his Mag the same compared to Calill. He is hardly unusable or FE11 Midia/Arran horrendous. -Not that this prevents magic users from being bad in PoR.

Bastian could have been interesting as a unique hybrid unit if they'd given him more base strength. It seems like that might have been what they were going for with him, but still held back significantly. If they'd given him like 20 strength from base, well sure he still wouldn't have been good as a physical unit regulated to the weakest weapon type, but there'd still be some sort of niche to him and some sort of justification for the whole knife option on sages.

[UNLEASH IT]

Now it feels like we just have prepromotes with high bases and high growths.