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Who is a worse ruler, Lima or Rudolf?

Who is a worse ruler, Lima or Rudolf?  

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  1. 1. Who is a worse ruler, Lima or Rudolf?



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Lima ignored every issue in his kingdom, forcibly made women his concubines (so pretty much rape) and allowed a tyrant like Desaix to run his country and systematically exile all the righthous people of his court.

Meanwhile Rudolf invaded a non-hostile county and started a war with the express intention to sell out his kingdom to the enemy, lied to his heir for years and organized a plan to kill their patron god (which sure, yeah was probably a oral choice because madness and all, but still a lot of people in the nation would likely take issue with blatant deicide).

So which do you think was worse? Rudolf was certainly more well intentioned than Lima, but he still did some super shitty things to his people, meanwhile most of Lima's crimes were as a result of inaction and not outright malevolence.

Edited by Jotari

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Lima's way worse.

Rudolf at least helped Alm become Emperor of Valentia. That counts as something.

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It's not really a contest; Rudolf was a superior ruler to Lima. Is that to say Rudolf was a good person? Not necessarily, but he more or less orchestrated the unification of Valentia, even if he had to be painted as the bad guy in order for that to happen. 

When it comes to being Alm's father, his decision to separate himself from Alm mirrors that of Sigurd separating himself from Seliph. It depends on the parent, but making the decision to separate yourself from your child can be an impossibly difficult choice to make. Sigurd sent Seliph away to protect him in case of his failure (you'll never guess what happened next), whereas Rudolf sent Alm away with Mycen in order to put his plan into motion. Ultimately, Rudolf dies by the hands of his own son; in a way, you could view that as Rudolf's sacrifice to make a better world. Both fathers had sacrificed themselves for the future generation to make things right. 

Lima existed solely for his own pleasure. Nothing else.

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I would say Lima due to what Alm had said and how we have seen in the cutscenes. Some aspects that Rudolf technically isn't in some ways is:

  1. He did allowed Mycen to look after his child to keep away from the Duma Faithful due to Duma becoming corrupted.
  2. He let Alm to take over Rigel after he defeats Duma.
  3. He did let the survived Rigel Soldiers in Rudolf's final battle to retreat when Rudolf falls.
  4. It's most likely he did prevented Berkut to take over as the next Emperor due to the Heritage.
  5. We pretty much know Rudolf isn't a cruel ruler to his citizens at Rigel unlike Garon did in Fates.

Some aspects that Rudolf had:

  1. He pretty much don't have control with the Duma Faithful due to they're loyal to Duma instead of Rigel itself.
  2. Some Generals that he didn't looked over that had become cruel to the Rigellian Citizens such as: Jerome (unless if he did planned to have Zeke observe Jerome's actions and have Zeke betray Rigel after Jerome's defeat)
Edited by King Marth 64

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This is no contest, really.

Also, another point against Lima IV is that he absolutely refused to help Rigel during their famine. To the point you have Zofia's own citizens saying stuff like this:

Young Man: I heard what the knight said, but it sounds like a load of horse plop to me. Everyone knows it’s Zofia’s fault that Rigel invaded in the first place. King Lima refused to help the Rigelian Empire during their famine, remember? And we all know the emperor didn’t take too kindly to THAT little slight. Such a shame. The kingdom and the empire had been getting along so well. The king may be dead, but his choices live on. Ain’t that always the way of it?

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Zophia had essentially almost ceased to exist when Echoes started while Rigel was still an actual nation. So that strongly suggests Rudolf was the better ruler.

Even Rudolf's many bad deeds were done in the name of a better Valentia, while Lima allowed Zophia to collapse just because he didn't feel like doing his job. 

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12 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Young Man: I heard what the knight said, but it sounds like a load of horse plop to me. Everyone knows it’s Zofia’s fault that Rigel invaded in the first place. King Lima refused to help the Rigelian Empire during their famine, remember? And we all know the emperor didn’t take too kindly to THAT little slight. Such a shame. The kingdom and the empire had been getting along so well. The king may be dead, but his choices live on. Ain’t that always the way of it?

Yeah, this line here basically justifies Rigel invading Zofia. I believe that Rigel had sent in Conrad's mother to be one of Lima's concubines, and in return, Rigel would be provided food. And Lima backed out on the deal after getting what he wants. 

Under normal circumstances, Rigel would have invaded Zofia immediately for that. However, they couldn't because of the pact made by Duma and Mila. Lima literally hid behind Mila and used her to get away with his horrible actions. 

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44 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, this line here basically justifies Rigel invading Zofia. I believe that Rigel had sent in Conrad's mother to be one of Lima's concubines, and in return, Rigel would be provided food. And Lima backed out on the deal after getting what he wants. 

Under normal circumstances, Rigel would have invaded Zofia immediately for that. However, they couldn't because of the pact made by Duma and Mila. Lima literally hid behind Mila and used her to get away with his horrible actions. 

It would have been interesting to see Mila's take on the situation. She started showing signs of corruption too and either agreed or just didn't care about what Lima was doing. 

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So one argument here in favor of Lima is that for the most part his crime is inaction and that Desaix was behind all the truly horrible stuff (or Mila behind the systemic issues with the society overall). And the argument against this is that it was Lima's job to make sure this abuse of power wasn't happening. However, why not then also look at the monstrous stuff that was happening under the Duma Faithful with it sacraficing its own citizens that came to be the norm under Rudolf that he didn't manage to stop. Seems like it'd be his onus to stop that as much as Lima's to stop Desaix.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Yeah, this line here basically justifies Rigel invading Zofia. I believe that Rigel had sent in Conrad's mother to be one of Lima's concubines, and in return, Rigel would be provided food. And Lima backed out on the deal after getting what he wants. 

Under normal circumstances, Rigel would have invaded Zofia immediately for that. However, they couldn't because of the pact made by Duma and Mila. Lima literally hid behind Mila and used her to get away with his horrible actions. 

Was Conrad's mother specifically a trade for food that Lima backed out on? Because if so then that's a hell of a long time for Rigel to sit on their add. Conrad is already in his 20s.

Edited by Jotari

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2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

It would have been interesting to see Mila's take on the situation. She started showing signs of corruption too and either agreed or just didn't care about what Lima was doing. 

Yeah, but given that she smothers the people so much, even if she felt it was wrong, she wouldn't have personally made efforts to correct that behavior. 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Was Conrad's mother specifically a trade for food that Lima backed out on? Because if so then that's a hell of a long time for Rigel to sit on their add. Conrad is already in his 20s.

Indeed. But they couldn't do anything. Not so long as the pact remained.

The only reason the pact was broken was when Duma gave Rudolf Falchion in order to seal Mila away. Without Falchion, opposing Mila was foolhardy. 

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50 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, but given that she smothers the people so much, even if she felt it was wrong, she wouldn't have personally made efforts to correct that behavior. 

Indeed. But they couldn't do anything. Not so long as the pact remained.

The only reason the pact was broken was when Duma gave Rudolf Falchion in order to seal Mila away. Without Falchion, opposing Mila was foolhardy. 

Yeah, but Duma wanted to invade Zofia since before Rudolf even became emperor.

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11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but Duma wanted to invade Zofia since before Rudolf even became emperor.

He was gradually losing it. He was doing who knows what when Conrad was born to either Jedah feeding Duma lies about his sister or Duma looked at Zofia and went,"Yeah, those look like a good source of offerings, let's invade them."

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I'd say, it's also a testament to Rudolf the fact it took around 24 years between becoming Emperor and actually invading Zofia, despite Duma's degenerating sanity wanting him to attack. He was able to keep him appeased on the promise that he will for that long before he had an actual excuse to strike and set his plan in motion: the famine and Lima's refusal to help Rigel. Instead of just invading willy-nilly.

After all, between Duma going mad and the radicalization of the Duma Faithful, he had to act cautiously on the subject.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say, it's also a testament to Rudolf the fact it took around 24 years between becoming Emperor and actually invading Zofia, despite Duma's degenerating sanity wanting him to attack. He was able to keep him appeased on the promise that he will for that long before he had an actual excuse to strike and set his plan in motion: the famine and Lima's refusal to help Rigel. Instead of just invading willy-nilly.

After all, between Duma going mad and the radicalization of the Duma Faithful, he had to act cautiously on the subject.

Rudolf was really banking on that prophecy.

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rudolf was really banking on that prophecy.

Indeed. Since it was basically a way to solve the problem of Duma and Mila going mad without causing too much fallout as a result.

Since, sure, Rudolf could've just grabbed Falchion and attempt to kill Duma himself, but that was bound to cause so much backslash since it's not the sort of thing he could get away with. Rigel would be plunged in Civil War at best, and that's not speaking of what Mila could do once word reached her. Thus, he banked on the prophecy for being what would be best for Valentia, and worked hard to make sure it could come true.

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Rudolf seems to be an "ends justify the means" guy. Whether you agree with him or not, Rudolf did the (quite frankly) insane things he did because he genuinely believed it would benefit Rigel in the end. I'm sure if Alm (and Rudolf) had failed in the end that the way both in-universe characters and players view Rudolf would be less favorable, but Rudolf did truly believe he was doing the best for Rigel and he wasn't touched in the head as far as we know.

Good ol' Lima didn't give a shit about his country, or his people, or his wives, or his children. Lima cared about Lima, and that just makes him the worse ruler. No contest.

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Lima was worse, but mainly because he allowed for obviously bad stuff under his nose, while not even caring. Stuff like Desaix being in charge, and a creep like Slayde being allowed to serve as a knight. I do have an ounce of pity for him - thinking he lost his children in the fire may have worsened his probable depression. Still, he was completely unfit to hold the throne, and Desaix took advantage of that, to Zofia's detriment.

As for Rudolf... his plan is rather convoluted, demands more suffering in the short-term, and could have seriously backfired. But, in conjunction with the actions of Alm and Celica, it had the effect of saving Valentia from its worst inhabitants - namely, the Duma Cult. Look, I'm not here to tread on freedom of religion, but when you're part of a violent club that creates monsters and forces people to give up their own souls, we're gonna have a problem. I'm indifferent to the whole "uniting Valentia", but deposing Jedah and his awful pyramid scheme was for the better of Rigel, and the whole continent.

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I at least see Rudolf's contrived plan as a kind of desperation, he's seemingly possessed by Duma in the vision of the future at the start and if I recall the Duma Faithful under Jedah's rule has alot of power in Valentia, so I can at least see it as Rudolf thinking that if he takes any obvious direct action against the Faithful, he's just going to be killed/mind controlled by them.

Meanwhile Lima was just a hedonistic ruler who kidnapped women.

Edited by Samz707

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