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Imuabicus

Finished AM Maddening.

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Welp, after just 1 year I finally completed a Maddening run. There´s just a couple of semi-random thoughts and some things I want some perspective on:

The role of Healing in the game. I don´t know if it´s me, or the way I played or built my units (Everyone gets Alert Stance. No exceptions.) but Mercedes was essentially all the Healing I ever needed and often times she didn´t heal but dealt some considerable damage instead. Hapi, Lysithea and Annette were mostly busy dealing damage too, throwing out a Heal or Restore… when they were in range that is. The reason why I´m mentioning this isn´t necessarily because of the Alert Stance thing I had going on as of mid-game (something like around chapter 8-14?), but also in the early game, were having Mages deal damage and healing via the abundance of Vulneraries was far more efficient than actually healing. Anyone else had this feeling?

The shop really needed to update sooner. Yes, I´d like to enrich my arsenal with some effective weaponry, especially if you are throwing ridiculous bosses at me (laughs in Knightkneeler Dmitri). Additionally, who decided it was a good idea, to have the merchant with the smithing stones not be a apart of the Prep Screen. TH´s prep screen was so close to greatness, being even better than Fates, but no.

Reclassing to an already acquired class should be its own option, not a subset of the damn inventory. Yes I looked for a really long time. Though I´m really not a fan of TH reclassing in general.  

Does Edelgard`s high range attack count as being a ballista or something? I admittedly didn´t read the description of it, but I had Byleth with the Chalice fly into range and she didn´t counterattack, but I could swear that was a thing?

I am astonished to see how strong Hunters Volley is. It was the only reason Shamir/Felix were able to meaningfully contribute in endgame.

Now that I think about it, some of the mechanics of TH are just mechanics from prior games, taken apart and made their own thing, no? The whole Prowess/Faire and a lot of enemies having breaker skills simulates the WT to some degree. Battalions are the stat boosts and Guard Adjutants are the Dual Guard from Fates PU (or Awakening if that´s up your alley).

Also, fuck endgame. I know that me LTCing every kill Boss chapter before it didn´t help, but it´s like they decided to replace Iago (chp. 26 CQ) with Duma, crank up the stats to eleven and call it a day. I don´t ever want to see a boss with four healthbars, just give me one G I A N T healthbar.

 

On another not, is it possible to get Edelgard to high enough Def thresholds in BE, so that she can reliably tank, even when doubled (I assume a good bunch of Def Boosts will be nessecary)? Any funny builds, except Vengeance Bernie? Also, how does the enemy stat curve compare to AM? I felt it was okay, until about Gronder Field 2.0 and the insane stats of house characters. 

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Alert Stance on everyone? I know Flier memeing is the most efficient way to play, but it seems a little excessive. I agree that Healing isn't too big of a deal. You can make reliable dodge tanks, player phase nukes, and I like to use Battalion Desperation on some units.

I remember the thing that annoyed me was not being able to get a second Flying battalion until after Gronder, so either my Byleth or Ingrid had to go without one. I don't understand your qualm with the reclassing.

Being able to counter attack Edelgard with the Chalice would have been too cheesy. The thing is that you can blocker her attack with the Sacred Shield gambit, and also Hapi is her priority because of her ability.

I haven't done CF Maddening, but from Hard mode tanking with Edelgard isn't too great. I guess you can dump a bunch of stat boosters into her and give her the Aegis Shield. If you're talking about her taking hits in general, I usually having her bait with a Training Sword so that she doesn't get doubled. For the stat curve you can look it up on a wiki, but I think the enemy stats will be similar to other routes, but since you have fewer chapters your units will be a little behind.

Edited by LoneStar

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5 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Does Edelgard`s high range attack count as being a ballista or something? I admittedly didn´t read the description of it, but I had Byleth with the Chalice fly into range and she didn´t counterattack, but I could swear that was a thing

Its not stated in-game, but its coded to nullify the Counterattack Skill. 

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7 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

The role of Healing in the game. I don´t know if it´s me, or the way I played or built my units (Everyone gets Alert Stance. No exceptions.) but Mercedes was essentially all the Healing I ever needed and often times she didn´t heal but dealt some considerable damage instead. Hapi, Lysithea and Annette were mostly busy dealing damage too, throwing out a Heal or Restore… when they were in range that is. The reason why I´m mentioning this isn´t necessarily because of the Alert Stance thing I had going on as of mid-game (something like around chapter 8-14?), but also in the early game, were having Mages deal damage and healing via the abundance of Vulneraries was far more efficient than actually healing. Anyone else had this feeling?

I found vulneraries much less useful personally; they only heal 10, and can only self-target... and of course you don't get exp / class exp from using them.

Agreed that a number of player tactics make healing not THAT essential later in the game, but it's still nice to have IMO, especially with the incredible range healing gets in this game, letting you be very flexible with it. It helps a lot that, as you note, many mages can contribute very effectively in non-healing ways. But it's enough that I'm not a huge fan of units who only heal.

7 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Also, fuck endgame. I know that me LTCing every kill Boss chapter before it didn´t help, but it´s like they decided to replace Iago (chp. 26 CQ) with Duma, crank up the stats to eleven and call it a day. I don´t ever want to see a boss with four healthbars, just give me one G I A N T healthbar.

 

On another not, is it possible to get Edelgard to high enough Def thresholds in BE, so that she can reliably tank, even when doubled (I assume a good bunch of Def Boosts will be nessecary)? Any funny builds, except Vengeance Bernie? Also, how does the enemy stat curve compare to AM? I felt it was okay, until about Gronder Field 2.0 and the insane stats of house characters. 

I like the four healthbars a lot better than one myself! It's neat how the boss unlocks better abilities with time (and you can even check what they'll get in advance!). In Hegemon's case you also have to deal with her regen powering up... a nice way of ramping up the pressure.

Def-tanking is certainly possible, yes, though it does fall off towards the end. What you generally want to do is:

  • go through Soldier for Def+2
  • certify for armour knight and fortress knight at level 10/20 respectively, to get your base def up. You don't actually need to BE in those classes (4 move is killer imo), but do certify. I'd also save at minimum the Giant Shell from Chapter 8 until after this certification.
  • stack shields (Aegis from Felix's paralogue is the best) and prot-boosting battalions
  • If you're being doubled, a guard adjutant can cut down on damage considerably

Eventually you'll probably reach a point where enemies start breaking through this pretty well but you can pretty much always take some extra hits other units can't with this, and that can be useful.

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By the end your offense can get so high with certain characters, that a single health bar for giant enemies would trivialize them and allow them to be easily two shotted. Multiple health bars is great for requiring more careful planning about how and when you deal damage to them. It also makes Edelgard's regeneration much more managable as the healthbars work as check points so to speak. If she had just one massive health bar that continuously recovered, then you'd need to devote all your resources into constantly whittling away at it. Having multiple ones means after taking out a health bar, you've made solid progress that can't be undone, which allows you to take a breather from her and focus on the reinforcements that have probably built up.

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20 hours ago, LoneStar said:

Alert Stance on everyone? I know Flier memeing is the most efficient way to play, but it seems a little excessive.

Not everyone was Flying but everyone got a chance to try +15 Avo. Kinda neat, considering LONG RANGE ATTACKS THAT NEVER STOP. I honestly didn´t plan much – went through the left side and then focused boss. Only took… I think 53 turns.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

By the end your offense can get so high with certain characters, that a single health bar for giant enemies would trivialize them and allow them to be easily two shotted. Multiple health bars is great for requiring more careful planning about how and when you deal damage to them. It also makes Edelgard's regeneration much more managable as the healthbars work as check points so to speak. If she had just one massive health bar that continuously recovered, then you'd need to devote all your resources into constantly whittling away at it. Having multiple ones means after taking out a health bar, you've made solid progress that can't be undone, which allows you to take a breather from her and focus on the reinforcements that have probably built up.

Small Healthbars aren´t really doing anything though to make it challenging though? As in, they needed to put a damage and crit reducing barrier on top of it to make it a challenge, but even then, Brave Lance+ (lvl 30 flier horse) Catherine dealt around 20x4 and WL Byleth with Brave Axe+ dealt similar damage. Fighting Edelgard wasn´t the difficult part – getting to her was. The reason I was dreading Healthbar 4 was because my Brave Axe+ broke, not because hahaha Vantage + Desperation +50 crit when below 50HP, because 200 HP is pathetically low when even with the barrier you take 70 dmg. To put it into perspective: Byleth and Catherine broke the barrier, and Felix finished her with 2 Failnaught crits for a total of 240 damage (40x2 +40crit) and she had no way of counteracting. If Felix hadn´t crit, I may have tried with Dmitris Brave Lance, or a Freikugel setup, because there was simply no way for me to safely attack a wrathed Edelgard. To back it up I still had my dancer gambit. This kind of design doesn´t encourage planning of any kind unless it´s LTC; it encourages on betting on the best combination of dmg & crit%.

Bosses being on Healing Thrones isn´t mandatory. Neither is a % based Heal. Her regen wasn´t an issue, because i killed her in four turns; 1 turn = 1 Healthbar. She never had a chance to heal.

The only problematic reinforcements were the bolting mages on the left – because I wrongfully thought blocking the stairs would block reinforcements, as Hilda found out. Warmasters are no match for Hunters Volley + Lysithea for back up.

Perhaps I wasn´t entirely clear on what I meant with giant healthbars… I mean bosses with 3k HP or even more (this coming from my Dark Deity playthrough). I don´t think there is a way of dealing 1.5kx2 in ANY FE. Heck, I doubt you could 1turn a boss with HP like that, even with all units in range to smack´em. Just don´t have me waste my time and damage on a barrier you had to give the monsters to make them a threat of any kind, a barrier, that also tends to be their weak spot (stun).

3 minutes ago, drattakbowser said:

If you want continue to play maddening then Crimson Flower should be the next and then Verdant Wind.

Already started CF; no intention of doing a Golden Deer or church run.

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47 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Not everyone was Flying but everyone got a chance to try +15 Avo. Kinda neat, considering LONG RANGE ATTACKS THAT NEVER STOP. I honestly didn´t plan much – went through the left side and then focused boss. Only took… I think 53 turns.

Are you talking about the final map? I just had Dimitri Vantage Kill those siege tomes with Retribution, and made efforts to snipe the ballistas with Stride/Warp usage. I had to restart once because my Dimitri wasn't fully optimized for crit rate and those Mortal Savants have relatively high luck. There was one set of Bolting Mage reinforcements that was complete BS though.

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4 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

Are you talking about the final map? I just had Dimitri Vantage Kill those siege tomes with Retribution, and made efforts to snipe the ballistas with Stride/Warp usage. I had to restart once because my Dimitri wasn't fully optimized for crit rate and those Mortal Savants have relatively high luck. There was one set of Bolting Mage reinforcements that was complete BS though.

Yeah, Oath of a dagger. The attacks I meant were Edelgards nonsense, the mages died to Chalice Byleth.

And yeah, when you enter the throne room, Big E will throw a fit, Dmitri will say something about how she looks and bam, left and right room of throne room  two mages with high range spells spawn. I had set up to block the left stiars, but alas, that doesn´t work. Or I fucked up and Hilda died for nothing, but I later placed Hapi at the sam spot to block the Dark Knight reinforcements and they didn´t spawn, so I say it´s the game and not me.

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3 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Perhaps I wasn´t entirely clear on what I meant with giant healthbars… I mean bosses with 3k HP or even more (this coming from my Dark Deity playthrough). I don´t think there is a way of dealing 1.5kx2 in ANY FE. Heck, I doubt you could 1turn a boss with HP like that, even with all units in range to smack´em. Just don´t have me waste my time and damage on a barrier you had to give the monsters to make them a threat of any kind, a barrier, that also tends to be their weak spot (stun).

That would just be an intolerable boring slog. Maybe it's work for like a castle wall that you start a chapter beside and have the eventually break down while dealing with other enemies, but not as a final boss that's fighting back. As it would essentially boil down to attacking safely for half a dozen turns until they eventually die. Progressing bars that nullify overflow damage and steadily make the enemy more dangerous are a much more technical and involved approach towards bosses.

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31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That would just be an intolerable boring slog. Maybe it's work for like a castle wall that you start a chapter beside and have the eventually break down while dealing with other enemies, but not as a final boss that's fighting back. As it would essentially boil down to attacking safely for half a dozen turns until they eventually die. Progressing bars that nullify overflow damage and steadily make the enemy more dangerous are a much more technical and involved approach towards bosses.

Yes. Just like my fight with Edelgard, on the highest difficulty. Fly in, smack her with the Brave Axe, laugh at her miserable hitrate, fly out, Physic/Fortify as needed. She did not get a chance to use any of her skills against me, because I just casually destroyed her Health bars via crits and quadruples. Now imagine Vantage when ½ of your HP is 1.5k instead of 100HP. Suddenly it matters.

Show me the safe distance to attack Edelgard from. Or the Death Knight. Or any of the final bosses of TH.

On the topic of Dark Deity and large HP pools:

Dark Deity LTC (Hero Difficulty) - Chapter 16 - YouTube

Dark Deity Strategy Game Final BOSS - YouTube

Dark Deity - Deity Mode Playthrough 21 - Chapter 23 - YouTube

Edited by Imuabicus

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19 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

Its not stated in-game, but its coded to nullify the Counterattack Skill. 

Does it play out like a ballista attack does? Or is it sent to a proper battle scene like with Bolting and Meteor?

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First off, I'll join the chorus of those who are fans of the "multiple HP bars" system. I like how it mimics, to some extent, the feel of "multi-phase" bosses in many platformers and RPGs - once they take several hits, they become faster and more aggressive. It can be trivialized, sure, but that's more a result of the game giving you a bunch of tools that can be cleverly stacked together. I think there is room to improve, admittedly - if the objection is "I'm doing too much to an unshielded Edelgard", why not say she should have simply been given a higher defense stat? The bosses of CF and SS got Ancient Dragonskin, so it kind of offered a similar effect (let me tell you, SS Endgame was a slog).

6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

I had set up to block the left stiars, but alas, that doesn´t work.

For the record, I hate when the game does this. I'm able to block reinforcements by sitting units on their spawn points in prior games, such as Shadow Dragon, so why not here? Especially insulting when they're same-turn reinforcements.

On 6/27/2021 at 2:23 PM, Imuabicus said:

Now that I think about it, some of the mechanics of TH are just mechanics from prior games, taken apart and made their own thing, no? The whole Prowess/Faire and a lot of enemies having breaker skills simulates the WT to some degree. Battalions are the stat boosts and Guard Adjutants are the Dual Guard from Fates PU (or Awakening if that´s up your alley).

I never made the connection on the bolded part! There are differences, but I can see they're not totally dissimilar. The Faire skills actually featured in the 3DS games (i.e. Swordmaster learns Swordfaire, Berserker learns Axefaire), while the Prowess have happened in several games, but "behind the scenes". I kind of like how the Prowess boosts are now visible, but doing them as equippable skills does contribute somewhat to "skill bloat".

On 6/27/2021 at 2:23 PM, Imuabicus said:

Reclassing to an already acquired class should be its own option, not a subset of the damn inventory. Yes I looked for a really long time. Though I´m really not a fan of TH reclassing in general.  

Inventory means everything in 3H. It's bizarre. Kind of unfortunate - they come up with this cool new wheel, and 80% of my time is spent on a single spoke.

On 6/27/2021 at 2:23 PM, Imuabicus said:

(Everyone gets Alert Stance. No exceptions.)

Of course. Interesting maneuver. It sounds like this worked well for you, which is great. Personally, I don't think it would jive with my own playstyle. Alert Stance is great when Waiting, but it only activates when you do nothing else (aside from moving) on player phase. Ergo, it lacks synergy with just about everything else you can do on player-phase (attacking, combat arts, healing, gambits, rallies, repositionals, dancing) in a game that I've found to be very player-phase oriented (crucial skills like Death Blow and Darting Blow are player-phase exclusive). I like Alert Stance on my enemy-phase dodgetanks, but I've found little use for it on most other unit types.

On 6/27/2021 at 2:23 PM, Imuabicus said:

Any funny builds, except Vengeance Bernie?

I made Ferdinand von Aegir my dancer when I played CF! His Riding boon gives him a relatively easy road to Movement +1, while Sword Avoid +20 synergizes superbly with his personal skill (Hit/Avoid +15). He can Dance on player-phase, then dodge-tank on enemy-phase.

Also, I made Hubert a Paladin. Once you unlock Frozen Lance, he can do a lot of damage with the right weapon - and being on a horse saves him from pitiful Mage movement. Not to mention, his paralogue offers the lance equivalent of a Levin Sword, letting him do magical ranged damage, with a faire, in a non-magic class.

One more - Fortress Knight Petra. She's got a boon in Axes, and is neutral in Armor, so... why not? The Armor classes patched up her defense quite nicely, while her Speed wasn't totally ruined. That said, this worked well on Hard Mode, but Maddening ups the ante somewhat, so I'm not sure how viable it will be there.

7 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Already started CF; no intention of doing a Golden Deer or church run.

That's a shame to hear. I like how different CF is, but VW is my favorite route overall. Mainly due to the sheer charm of Claude as a character. No pressure, but I'd recommend trying it out in the future.

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On 6/27/2021 at 1:23 PM, Imuabicus said:

(Everyone gets Alert Stance. No exceptions.)

That's a lot of attention to give to Flying for an ability I'm convinced is highly overrated, and would even go so far as to brand "Awesome But Impractical" (just how often is waiting going to be a better option than attacking, let alone pretty much anything else???).

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4 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Yes. Just like my fight with Edelgard, on the highest difficulty. Fly in, smack her with the Brave Axe, laugh at her miserable hitrate, fly out, Physic/Fortify as needed. She did not get a chance to use any of her skills against me, because I just casually destroyed her Health bars via crits and quadruples. Now imagine Vantage when ½ of your HP is 1.5k instead of 100HP. Suddenly it matters.

Show me the safe distance to attack Edelgard from. Or the Death Knight. Or any of the final bosses of TH.

On the topic of Dark Deity and large HP pools:

Dark Deity LTC (Hero Difficulty) - Chapter 16 - YouTube

Dark Deity Strategy Game Final BOSS - YouTube

Dark Deity - Deity Mode Playthrough 21 - Chapter 23 - YouTube

If your whole aim is to have Vantage matter then you can just make a version of Vantage that always activates.

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10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If your whole aim is to have Vantage matter then you can just make a version of Vantage that always activates.

Yep, Vantage+ already does this in Awakening (I think it's Lunatic+ exclusive?). And that's effectively how FE12 reverse mode operates. They definitely could have programmed it into Three Houses (possibly as a Maddening exclusive). I wouldn't necessarily be a fan of it, but it's a feasible fix to the concern that was raised.

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4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yep, Vantage+ already does this in Awakening (I think it's Lunatic+ exclusive?). And that's effectively how FE12 reverse mode operates. They definitely could have programmed it into Three Houses (possibly as a Maddening exclusive). I wouldn't necessarily be a fan of it, but it's a feasible fix to the concern that was raised.

I'm somewhat sure it works 100% of the time in Path of Radiance too. Though I don't recall if any bosses use the skill in that game.

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Does it play out like a ballista attack does? Or is it sent to a proper battle scene like with Bolting and Meteor?

Proper Battle Scene.

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5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Of course. Interesting maneuver. It sounds like this worked well for you, which is great. Personally, I don't think it would jive with my own playstyle. Alert Stance is great when Waiting, but it only activates when you do nothing else (aside from moving) on player phase. Ergo, it lacks synergy with just about everything else you can do on player-phase (attacking, combat arts, healing, gambits, rallies, repositionals, dancing) in a game that I've found to be very player-phase oriented (crucial skills like Death Blow and Darting Blow are player-phase exclusive). I like Alert Stance on my enemy-phase dodgetanks, but I've found little use for it on most other unit types.

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's a lot of attention to give to Flying for an ability I'm convinced is highly overrated, and would even go so far as to brand "Awesome But Impractical" (just how often is waiting going to be a better option than attacking, let alone pretty much anything else???).

Well, the thing is, not everyone had Alert Stance+, just Alert Stance. Whether or not I equipped it, is a totally different matter. Mages, Snipers, Dancers etc. don really need it, since they act PP exclusively and they need their offensive Blow Skills, Prowess Skills and potential Range enhancements. Fliers and Dmitiri though? Absolutely, 100% of the time. Now way am I trying to EP Maddening TH without it. Fuck that. And the only tank I really had was Dedue for the first...3 chapters. After that he joined Sylvain and Ashe as alternate convoys.

Also, having recruited Hapi and having her equip Alerts Stance+ on the final map had the neato benefit of Edelgard attacking the same units every time with less than 20% hit, which was nice. Though I didn´t make the connection between Hapi´s PS and the boss obsession with her, until someone mentioned it.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

One more - Fortress Knight Petra. She's got a boon in Axes, and is neutral in Armor, so... why not? The Armor classes patched up her defense quite nicely, while her Speed wasn't totally ruined. That said, this worked well on Hard Mode, but Maddening ups the ante somewhat, so I'm not sure how viable it will be there.

This does not spark joy.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That's a shame to hear. I like how different CF is, but VW is my favorite route overall. Mainly due to the sheer charm of Claude as a character. No pressure, but I'd recommend trying it out in the future.

I am not about characters or story; all i care about is units, their builds and maps. VW final map just looks like an infinitely more bothersome map than CF or AM and I´m not about that life, even moreso as all my TH runs on the longer paths have turned into LTC-ish runs, since I don´t have the patience to deal with the "maps with enemies strewn about" that the kill boss lategame appears to be. Which has the adverse effect of all my units being super weak relative to lvl 50 enemies. 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

If your whole aim is to have Vantage matter then you can just make a version of Vantage that always activates.

That´s not what I was saying, but hey, if that´s your takeaway there is nothing left to say to you.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also, I made Hubert a Paladin. Once you unlock Frozen Lance, he can do a lot of damage with the right weapon - and being on a horse saves him from pitiful Mage movement. Not to mention, his paralogue offers the lance equivalent of a Levin Sword, letting him do magical ranged damage, with a faire, in a non-magic class.

I was thinking of making him a Dark Knigh in the end - I am not above abusing the Calendar glitch if need be. 

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6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

This does not spark joy.

You would be disliking that greatly?

6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

I am not about characters or story; all i care about is units, their builds and maps. VW final map just looks like an infinitely more bothersome map than CF or AM and I´m not about that life, even moreso as all my TH runs on the longer paths have turned into LTC-ish runs, since I don´t have the patience to deal with the "maps with enemies strewn about" that the kill boss lategame appears to be. Which has the adverse effect of all my units being super weak relative to lvl 50 enemies. 

I wouldn't call VW Endgame particularly "bothersome". In fact, there are strategies to trivialize it, that let you skip fighting the 10 Elites. That said, I think the Elites are somewhat interesting enemies, if not especially challenging. There's another exclusive mission, too - the Claude paralogue. It's the only non-auxilliary battle that uses the Sreng desert map, and it features a fairly notable boss (the Wind Caller). You also receive the Sword of Begalta, an exclusive Sacred weapon. Finally, there's Claude - he's the speediest Lord, and his personal class is among the best in the game. And the battalion he brings, in part 2, is absolutely devastating. 

So while there are fewer VW exclusives (relative to CF or AM), I would say it's worth it, even if you're just interested in the gameplay.

6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

was thinking of making him a Dark Knigh in the end - I am not above abusing the Calendar glitch if need be. 

You shouldn't need to. There are two clear courses to Dark Knight - Monk* -> Mage* -> Dark Mage -> Dark Bishop -> Dark Knight, or Monk* -> Mage* -> Cavalier -> Paladin -> Dark Knight. The former retains spell access, and higher magical power, throughout. Whereas, the latter has more mobility, and can do more damage with Frozen Lance or Arrow of Indra. In either case, Monk and Mage are firmly worth mastering, whereas the other class masteries are optional.

6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Well, the thing is, not everyone had Alert Stance+, just Alert Stance. Whether or not I equipped it, is a totally different matter. Mages, Snipers, Dancers etc. don really need it, since they act PP exclusively and they need their offensive Blow Skills, Prowess Skills and potential Range enhancements.

Huh, okay. So, do you think it was worth it, going for Alert Stance on units who didn't use it? Because my thought is, if I'm only using a unit in grounded classes, and not planning to equip Alert Stance, then any time I could spend boosting Flight would be better-spent raising a weapon type or Authority. Might be a good consideration for your CF playthrough, is all.

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6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

That´s not what I was saying, but hey, if that´s your takeaway there is nothing left to say to you.

Well it was the whole crux of your argument in your most recent post on the matter. Overall I just can't see any benefit of having an inflated HP bar versus multiple HP bars unless the goal is just to make the enemy easier. Even if the goal is just extended the boss battle's length out (not an idea I'd really be behind, Silver Snow's final boss sucks imo), that's something that can be done more effectively by stacking multiple HP bars than just upping the numbers to ridiculous heights.

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12 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

You would be disliking that greatly?

It sounds like Rinkah. I despise Rinkah.

20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Huh, okay. So, do you think it was worth it, going for Alert Stance on units who didn't use it? Because my thought is, if I'm only using a unit in grounded classes, and not planning to equip Alert Stance, then any time I could spend boosting Flight would be better-spent raising a weapon type or Authority. Might be a good consideration for your CF playthrough, is all.

NG+ material. Weapon aptitudes were an issue tbh, mostly because most of my units reached lvl 20 before they had the ranks to promote, or mastered any skills. I don´t know how people hit these things in time. Flying is neato on the mages, in case I don´t need overwhelming offense but quick Dark Fliers - something everyone not named Mercedes (so Lysithea, Hapi, Annette) went through. Other than that I had Sniper Felix/Shamir who didn´t really need it, but had no real problems with weapon rank, Ingrid, who was a Dancer and also didn´t need it but also joined my team somewhat late (due to deployment slots) and then Byleth, Catherine and Hilda, who definitely needed it. Also Dmitri, because "lol chapter 13 i wait in this bush, you can´t hit me" .

26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I wouldn't call VW Endgame particularly "bothersome". In fact, there are strategies to trivialize it, that let you skip fighting the 10 Elites. That said, I think the Elites are somewhat interesting enemies, if not especially challenging. There's another exclusive mission, too - the Claude paralogue. It's the only non-auxilliary battle that uses the Sreng desert map, and it features a fairly notable boss (the Wind Caller). You also receive the Sword of Begalta, an exclusive Sacred weapon. Finally, there's Claude - he's the speediest Lord, and his personal class is among the best in the game. And the battalion he brings, in part 2, is absolutely devastating. 

So while there are fewer VW exclusives (relative to CF or AM), I would say it's worth it, even if you're just interested in the gameplay.

Oh, I know, I´ve played through all routes in Hard mode. The only thing I remember about the final map was yoloing across the map, thinking I had an easy 1turn, but no, everyone not called the player gets some kind of Barrier. 

The only interesting thing about VW i can think of are Barbarossa Claude, cuz lol Flying Ballista and Magic Sword Dance mashup thingy Marianne. Other than that... meh. Raphael, Lorenz and maybe Ignatz would take up Raphaels, Ashes and Sylvains convoy duties. Oh yeah, aslo the fact that you get some cool bows inhouse anyway - Failnaught and The Inexhaustible. And as of my AM run I´m not a fan of Hilda either - granted she may grow better inhouse but she fell real hard.

I honestly don´t think I´d do Claudes paralogue - I didn´t do Rheas or Dmitris either cuz I just wanted to be done.  And none of the sacred weapons seem that grand - I´d just end up spamming the Brave Weapons. Plus it´s against another, barrier go brrr boss.

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well it was the whole crux of your argument in your most recent post on the matter. Overall I just can't see any benefit of having an inflated HP bar versus multiple HP bars unless the goal is just to make the enemy easier. Even if the goal is just extended the boss battle's length out (not an idea I'd really be behind, Silver Snow's final boss sucks imo), that's something that can be done more effectively by stacking multiple HP bars than just upping the numbers to ridiculous heights.

The crux of my argument was, that your Barriers, multiple Healthbars and HP% dependent skills don´t matter, if there´s an enemy who deals 240 dmg in a single turn when you start with 106 HP and end at 199HP. If I had bothered to clear the map, even with my underleveled units(I guess? with the exception of  Byleth) she would have been a 1turn. Again, if you don´t understand that, I have nothing else to say to you.

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56 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

The crux of my argument was, that your Barriers, multiple Healthbars and HP% dependent skills don´t matter, if there´s an enemy who deals 240 dmg in a single turn when you start with 106 HP and end at 199HP. If I had bothered to clear the map, even with my underleveled units(I guess? with the exception of  Byleth) she would have been a 1turn. Again, if you don´t understand that, I have nothing else to say to you.

I'm sure I'm capable of understanding your logic even if I don't agree with it, but you're not explaining yourself very well. Enemies don't deal anything close to 240 damage in Fire Emblem. So I assume you mean if there's an enemy who has 240 HP. But the numbers don't really matter for HP. Because it seems your issue is that the boss dies in one turn, and you want to give them thousands of HP in a singular health bar to do that. While I think making it so it takes ten turns to whittle down a boss's health is a terrible idea for making fun or interesting game design, even if that's your goal, that is something that can be more effectively done by adding multiple health bars instead of extending a single health bar, as it adds breaker points that limit your damage potential and progressively allow the boss to get stronger.

Edited by Jotari

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9 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Well, the thing is, not everyone had Alert Stance+, just Alert Stance. Whether or not I equipped it, is a totally different matter. Mages, Snipers, Dancers etc. don really need it, since they act PP exclusively and they need their offensive Blow Skills, Prowess Skills and potential Range enhancements. Fliers and Dmitiri though? Absolutely, 100% of the time. Now way am I trying to EP Maddening TH without it. Fuck that. And the only tank I really had was Dedue for the first...3 chapters. After that he joined Sylvain and Ashe as alternate convoys.

Doesn't really make it any less of a frivolity to get it on EVERYONE. I mean, why would I waste time investing in Flying on someone like Mercedes when it'd likely be better spent getting to get to Black Magic Range +1??? Especially considering that Alert Stance is obtained at B Flying, which is NOT a trivial amount of investment if you don't have a bonus in Flying (going from E to B requires 680 points).

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't really make it any less of a frivolity to get it on EVERYONE. I mean, why would I waste time investing in Flying on someone like Mercedes when it'd likely be better spent getting to get to Black Magic Range +1??? Especially considering that Alert Stance is obtained at B Flying, which is NOT a trivial amount of investment if you don't have a bonus in Flying (going from E to B requires 680 points).

I mean I beat TH AM like this and quite handily so – the only major issue I faced was my dumb mistake in chapter 13 getting Gilbert killed. I don´t know how or if you play TH Maddening.

And yeah, my mages had dark magic range +1, though I had both Thyrsus and Caduceus. They also had Fiendish Blow. And my physical units had hit+20, Death/Darting Blow, the respective Prowess skill, maybe the Authority skill, the Snipers had the 1 range counter. Ah yeah, Weight -3 was also present for a good amount of time.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm sure I'm capable of understanding your logic even if I don't agree with it, but you're not explaining yourself very well. Enemies don't deal anything close to 240 damage in Fire Emblem. So I assume you mean if there's an enemy who has 240 HP. But the numbers don't really matter for HP. Because it seems your issue is that the boss dies in one turn, and you want to give them thousands of HP in a singular health bar to do that. While I think making it so it takes ten turns to whittle down a boss's health is a terrible idea for making fun or interesting game design, even if that's your goal, that is something that can be more effectively done by adding multiple health bars instead of extending a single health bar, as it adds breaker points that limit your damage potential and progressively allow the boss to get stronger.

If you think back to yesterday, the number 240 is the damage dealt by Felix to Edelgard on her last Healthbar. 

No, the reason I want them to have 3k HP (exemplary value) is so that the game can stop bothering with the goddamn barriers that reduce damage and miniscule HP bars in an effort to make it challenging. Yeah, I have a problem with the game having me waste my damage and with that my time for no good reason. Why no good reason? Because as I had mentioned before, she was no challenge whatsoever, her healing didn´t matter, because she lost a HPbar/turn, the skills per HPbar didn´t matter, because she lost her HPbar from above 50% and thus wouldn´t activate. There was no intricate “if unit X has 40 STR and equips weapon Y I reach 60 DMG threshold” involved, no, it was Byleth/Catherine/Dmitri/Felix walk up to the boss, slap her in the face and done. Yeah, Edelgard got stronger – a bit more HP to quadruple/crit away once the Barrier goes, outside of that, her 30-70% Hit didn´t matter, her 20-40 damage didn´t matter, her ~5% crit didn´t matter, her 33 (I think, don´t quote) AS didn´t matter, her Throne bonuses didn´t matter, her Vantage didn´t matter, her Desperation didn´t matter and her Wrath sure as fuck didn´t either and neither did her reinforcements. Hegemon Husk Edelgard is a boss given everything to be a nuisance, but fails to be a nuisance, simply because she dies before she can get shit done. Hence, no, multiple small HPbars don´t make for a more interesting boss, it makes them sitting ducks getting ripped apart on PP, even when they have a Developer theorycrafted build, that should punish PP attacks.

Unless of course your experience with Maddening Hegemon Husk was so vastly different from mine.

16 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

First off, I'll join the chorus of those who are fans of the "multiple HP bars" system. I like how it mimics, to some extent, the feel of "multi-phase" bosses in many platformers and RPGs - once they take several hits, they become faster and more aggressive. It can be trivialized, sure, but that's more a result of the game giving you a bunch of tools that can be cleverly stacked together. I think there is room to improve, admittedly - if the objection is "I'm doing too much to an unshielded Edelgard", why not say she should have simply been given a higher defense stat? The bosses of CF and SS got Ancient Dragonskin, so it kind of offered a similar effect (let me tell you, SS Endgame was a slog)

Yeah, but stuff like Dragonskin or inflating defensive stats has a solid chance of denying units their ability to contribute. Which I´d say is unforgivable in a game centered around using units as a means to an end (just think of H5 Medeus, a bit of a reverse case - melee units cannot contribute [unless you suicide them, which is fairplay - glory to Altea!] and the best strategy, in part due to map layout, is to suicide a effective damage unit and revive).

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