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♠Soul♠

Tired of competitive Smash Ultimate

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There's a time in your life where you have to realise, that maybe for once, you aren't the problem. For being the most "balanced" Smash game (competitively), it's poorly designed. I've seen it time and time again. I played competitive Smash for almost 10 years since Brawl, and this game is just a slap in the face and kick in the balls. It's like everything I learned and practiced means very little for the logic of this mess of a game.

It makes me very bitter, because it's the only thing I really care about and have invested time into, only expecting it to... work like it's supposed to. And apparently, I'm the crazy guy for expecting something so basic. I survived Brawl as a Bowser player and Diddy Kong/Bayonetta/Cloud in Smash 4 without once having had blamed the game or the characters I used. If it managed to get me to this point, there's obviously something wrong.

This isn't even getting started with it's crappy online, which I've given up on a while ago. I'm strictly talking about offline, which is actually very sad.

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I went to tournaments for Melee and Project M back in the day, but what made me quit wasn't the game itself, just the people. I felt like I was treated like garbage, and there was new drama every day, even in an era where people weren't yet making entire youtube careers on documenting internet drama. Hungrybox once said Smash is a beautiful thing, it's just a shame it's published by Nintendo. He's right, but I'd also add it's a shame that it enables the behaviors of Smash players. From those actually attending tournaments, to the jackasses that only hang on to whine about who they want in the game and keep men like Sakurai physically injuring themselves to provide. Nobody deserves Smash.

Oh, Ultimate? It's fine. Just like Smash 4, I only play doubles quickplay, and it's always a blast with friends. I can't see myself getting serious as a solo player. The only thing that bugs me about Ultimate is the input delay, it's way worse than previous games. So even though the game is technically balanced, it will never feel as good as it should. Some hackers who seem to know what they're talking about on the subject suggest that the input delay can't be patched out like it was in other fighter games like Tekken (developed by the same people who make Smash). The delay's there because the Switch's hardware is just that inefficient at running the game. That most Switch games have similar input delay, not just Smash. Delay based netcode doesn't help either. A move like Ness' PK Fire or Sonic's Spin Dash should be blockable on reaction - especially since they have an audio cue, but in practice you can't. The only moves you successfully avoid are the ones you can anticipate through pattern recognition. The game feels less like a contest of skill and more like jousting. You just hit and run, and respond to each hit accordingly. I've run into so many raw Fsmashes that it makes me want to shout at the game that it wasn't my fault.

Edited by Glennstavos

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3 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

What bugs me uniquely about Ultimate is just the input delay

I feel that more due to the nerfed defensive options and how there's a lot of attacks that are now safe on block (It's damning how Pikachu is the only Top Tier yet to be nerfed throughout Ultimate's life at the time of typing this) and that hurt/hitboxes are so odd compared to Sm4sh.  Both had their share of jank, but Ultimate's... is hard to describe how bad it can be.

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5 minutes ago, FailWood said:

I feel that more due to the nerfed defensive options and how there's a lot of attacks that are now safe on block (It's damning how Pikachu is the only Top Tier yet to be nerfed throughout Ultimate's life at the time of typing this)

I actually love defensive options in this game. In Smash 4, players would mash air dodge out of hitstun 100% of the time, so each juggle scenario was about 50/50s. In this game, adding a directional air dodge that's laggier but gets you further away from your opponent is hard to account for. I'm successfully landing a lot more against swordies without having to retreat to the ledge like I did in previous games. The small tweaks to ledge and get up options are appreciated too, since it's not likely you could cover everything with one option. Though if you ask me, players are still too safe at the ledge just as they were in every previous game.

Quote

and that hurt/hitboxes are so odd compared to Sm4sh.  Both had their share of jank, but Ultimate's... is hard to describe how bad it can be.

I've definitely got footage of whiffing a point blank dash grab as Corrin on Joker when Joker is charging his Fsmash, but other than grab hitboxes being way too tiny, I can't really name any issues here. I noticed a ton of hitbox corrections going from 4 to Ultimate that I immediately agreed with. And I appreciate that hitboxes generally match the character models across the board which you could almost never say in previous games. I still think they should revert that one change where you can't run through your opponent. It doesn't feel right for Smash, especially when character don't have that same collision while airborne. 

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41 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Though if you ask me, players are still too safe at the ledge just as they were in every previous game.

Regular get up and rolling get up have less intangibility at higher percents, even if you don't use the ledge much, hard to say if that's better or worse then how generous Sm4sh was with it's ledge get up intangibility.

As for hitboxes, like you said, grabs are painfully small at times.  I've personally had issues hitting ZSS because of her being too damn skinny, like having Shulk's forward air go right through her.  On the flip side, there's Donkey Kong who might as well not have a shield for how much he get's poked (it's nearly as bad as Melee Mr. Game & Watch), and how his dodge roll doesn't cover his entire body.

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4 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I went to tournaments for Melee and Project M back in the day, but what made me quit wasn't the game itself, just the people. I felt like I was treated like garbage, and there was new drama every day, even in an era where people weren't yet making entire youtube careers on documenting internet drama. Hungrybox once said Smash is a beautiful thing, it's just a shame it's published by Nintendo. He's right, but I'd also add it's a shame that it enables the behaviors of Smash players. From those actually attending tournaments, to the jackasses that only hang on to whine about who they want in the game and keep men like Sakurai physically injuring themselves to provide. Nobody deserves Smash.

Oh, Ultimate? It's fine. Just like Smash 4, I only play doubles quickplay, and it's always a blast with friends. I can't see myself getting serious as a solo player. The only thing that bugs me about Ultimate is the input delay, it's way worse than previous games. So even though the game is technically balanced, it will never feel as good as it should. Some hackers who seem to know what they're talking about on the subject suggest that the input delay can't be patched out like it was in other fighter games like Tekken (developed by the same people who make Smash). The delay's there because the Switch's hardware is just that inefficient at running the game. That most Switch games have similar input delay, not just Smash. Delay based netcode doesn't help either. A move like Ness' PK Fire or Sonic's Spin Dash should be blockable on reaction - especially since they have an audio cue, but in practice you can't. The only moves you successfully avoid are the ones you can anticipate through pattern recognition. The game feels less like a contest of skill and more like jousting. You just hit and run, and respond to each hit accordingly. I've run into so many raw Fsmashes that it makes me want to shout at the game that it wasn't my fault.

Yeah, that's really well explained. I always played intuitively, and it worked really well for me until Ultimate. Other people make it seem like there's nothing wrong about not being able to react and punish everything, and I think they're crazy.

3 hours ago, FailWood said:

I feel that more due to the nerfed defensive options and how there's a lot of attacks that are now safe on block (It's damning how Pikachu is the only Top Tier yet to be nerfed throughout Ultimate's life at the time of typing this) and that hurt/hitboxes are so odd compared to Sm4sh.  Both had their share of jank, but Ultimate's... is hard to describe how bad it can be.

I think it seems that way on the outside, but the more you play it, you realise they're a lot stronge than they look. Maybe you can't do things like shield drop, or things like rolls and spotdodges are "worse" in paper (because of the staling). But in reality, it took me a long time to realise they're just as bad as ever...maybe even worse. Defensive players can get away with alot, since they have so little lag and multiple options to get away. I shouldn't struggle to hit or grab people, but sometimes even that is a lot harder than other games (let alone grabbing).

Defensive play starts becoming a lot more relevant at like mid-level, you see it a lot. It's like the easiest way to get better, and Ultimate proves that. I never struggled nearly as much with defensive players as I do here. It just used to be a manner of try to read and react to their options, but here it's a rocket science equation.

I once read a guide that said that Ultimate has this things where defensive options were buffed universally, so every character has access to that kind of playstyle.

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3 hours ago, FailWood said:

I've personally had issues hitting ZSS because of her being too damn skinny, like having Shulk's forward air go right through her.  

Her "light" hurtstun animation extends her hurtbox a ton, best to take advantage of that.

 

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I remember once playing a horrendous online match where this guy kept spamming (and missing) grabs and I literally couldn't even punish it because of lag and he would just do that and Flip Kick. I know wifi is horrendous, but that's a whole other level. Went 5 minutes of constantly whiffing stuff on both ends.

Edited by the actual real soul

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2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Her "light" hurtstun animation extends her hurtbox a ton, best to take advantage of that.

I hope to figure out what you mean by that.

 

3 hours ago, the actual real soul said:

It just used to be a manner of try to read and react to their options, but here it's a rocket science equation.

I usually run in, put my shield up hoping they the bait, then punish accordingly.  If I do get knocked away, I use that time to analyze what they might do next.  For reference, I mainly use Wario and King Dedede.

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45 minutes ago, FailWood said:

I usually run in, put my shield up hoping they the bait, then punish accordingly.  If I do get knocked away, I use that time to analyze what they might do next.  For reference, I mainly use Wario and King Dedede.

I used to play like that, but I don't know if it's just me or my character.  Zelda has one of the worst dash > shield in the game, because it ends on Frame 15. Standard characters are about 10-12 frames at worst, meaning something as basic as that makes it really awkward. Doesn't help her grab is also like the slowest (or one of) non-tether grabs. Or maybe I just grew so unaccostumed to it on top of overusing foxthrot that I just ditched that strategy.

It was basically a staple back when I used Bowser, and even Corrin in Smash 4 (still has the best dash shield next to Sheik). It's one of the more basic approaches that just works.

I also meant that, in general, I could just thrive off of reads, even in neutral. Since everything has so little endlag and you can buffer options, it's a lot harder for me to do that in this game. Even if you do catch something like a roll or an airdodge, they automatically just shield and you get punished for it.

Edited by the actual real soul

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49 minutes ago, FailWood said:

I hope to figure out what you mean by that.

when you hit them with a light attack at lower % or with low BKB/KBG attacks generally they go in to a "light" hurt animation that you can act quicker out of than normal tumble state, ZSS's hurtbox grows alot when in that animation, making it easier to hit her from farther away.

Edited by lightcosmo

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6 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

players are still too safe at the ledge just as they were in every previous game.

Definitely gotta disagree here, Melee's ledge is a giant pain to get off of if your opponent knows anything. You have more freedom than other games due to Melee's better technical options, but it doesn't help when your opponent knows how to answer all the options and plays to do so.

This is of course assuming you aren't discussing Samus using fair from ledge, in which case yes, your Samus is 100% safe fairing from ledge no matter how your opponent tries to stop it. I speak from experience on BOTH sides of that equation.

Personally, I prefer 64. It's ancient as all get out, you can't spot-dodge, roll, air-dodge, Link's recovery is absolutely nonexistent, Grabs can't be mashed out of...mm, beautiful. Also helps that it's the one game I can consistently do well against my brother in, my Samus is fairly evenly matched with him and it's the only Smash we're so even in, he edges out ahead of me in all the non-Melee games and utterly destroys me in Melee.

...For real though, I like all of them in their own way. I recently realized 64 is the closest Smash ever was to a traditional fighter, so that's cool, Melee does have a lot of freedom you can use to your advantage(even if I'm way down the ladder there), Brawl had Subspace which was glorious(and literally nothing else lol), Sm4sh had Smash Run, also glorious, I wish Ultimate had kept that, plus it had some of the most hype character reveals for me(I freaked out for no fewer than four separate reveals - Megaman, Little Mac, Roy, and Ryu), and Ultimate has been incredibly fun for me, I've particularly enjoyed learning to adapt Ken and Terry to Smash's different physics engine, looking forward to learning Kazuya.

10 hours ago, the actual real soul said:

There's a time in your life where you have to realise, that maybe for once, you aren't the problem. For being the most "balanced" Smash game (competitively), it's poorly designed. I've seen it time and time again. I played competitive Smash for almost 10 years since Brawl, and this game is just a slap in the face and kick in the balls. It's like everything I learned and practiced means very little for the logic of this mess of a game.

It makes me very bitter, because it's the only thing I really care about and have invested time into, only expecting it to... work like it's supposed to. And apparently, I'm the crazy guy for expecting something so basic. I survived Brawl as a Bowser player and Diddy Kong/Bayonetta/Cloud in Smash 4 without once having had blamed the game or the characters I used. If it managed to get me to this point, there's obviously something wrong.

This isn't even getting started with it's crappy online, which I've given up on a while ago. I'm strictly talking about offline, which is actually very sad.

The way my brother explained his issue with Ultimate to me was that the ground movement is too 'long-form' if that makes sense - you think your dash startup will go this -- long because that's how all the other games went but instead it goes this ------ long. This means you end up either doing a lot of jumping so you can take advantage of the shorter options available through aerial movement or rolling because you're going to be moving that far anyways, might as well get a little invincibility to go with it.

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26 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

Definitely gotta disagree here, Melee's ledge is a giant pain to get off of if your opponent knows anything. You have more freedom than other games due to Melee's better technical options, but it doesn't help when your opponent knows how to answer all the options and plays to do so.

Well, chalk that up to Melee being a game where you only fight the same six characters unless you meet one of the local pros who enjoys sandbagging before he gets too far in bracket. The technical details of each matchup start to become routine. Ultimate has 80 characters, and you can count on seeing most of them in a serious setting.

Melee's ledge dash infuriates me. The way you just carry the I frames you earned from just touching the ledge. And how regrabbing the ledge refreshes it so you can ledge stall. It's not fun at all. 

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8 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

The way my brother explained his issue with Ultimate to me was that the ground movement is too 'long-form' if that makes sense - you think your dash startup will go this -- long because that's how all the other games went but instead it goes this ------ long. This means you end up either doing a lot of jumping so you can take advantage of the shorter options available through aerial movement or rolling because you're going to be moving that far anyways, might as well get a little invincibility to go with it.

Rolling is most definitely not a better option to dashing, let alone in Ultimate. I understand what your brother means, but it's also character dependent. He means that dashes are more punishable in this game, but they also have the benefit of "cancelling" into more dashes with little endlag. In like Brawl and Smash 4, only a  few charcters had that option to fox throt with little endlag (i.e C.Falcon, Marth, Roy, etc.). Roy's was actually pretty damn demanding, while everyone does this really easily in Ultimate.

And another thing this might lead into is running into random Smash attacks or attacks in general if you don't use them as well. I've always had this problem.

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9 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

Personally, I prefer 64. It's ancient as all get out, you can't spot-dodge, roll, air-dodge, Link's recovery is absolutely nonexistent, Grabs can't be mashed out of...mm, beautiful.

You forgot to mention that touching the shield button is a 100% death sentence.

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I like it when people say shields are "bad" in Ultimate, when they're just as good as usual save for not being able to shield drop. I never struggled with shield so much, and it's namely because of how awkward grabbing is in Ultimate. Shield pressure exists, but it's not like it's perfect and free for every single character. In Brawl and Smash 4, I literally just grabbed and that's it.

Edited by the actual real soul

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