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Ottservia

I just really love battle shounen

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So over the past few months I’ve been rereading the big 3 as in Naruto, One Piece, and Bleach. And honestly it’s been a blast revisiting these series in manga form. I have fallen in love with them all over again and enjoying moments I never really cared for previously. The amount of talent and dedication Kishimoto, Oda, and Kubo put into these manga is just astonishing. I had really forgotten just how good each of these series really were. It’s also shown me just how padded out their anime adaptations really are like christ I knew Naruto had a lot of filler but dear lord some of those early episodes are really padded to hell with unnecessary scenes and flashbacks. But still, it’s been a lot of fun going back to these old series again.

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There is definitely some great battle shonen, though the only ones I've watched are One-Punch Man (a parody, so I'm not sure if it counts), Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood (if that counts as battle shonen; it's shonen, it has fighting, but is it a battle shonen?), My Hero Academia, Naruto, Boruto, and Black Clover.

 

15 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

It’s also shown me just how padded out their anime adaptations really are like christ I knew Naruto had a lot of filler but dear lord some of those early episodes are really padded to hell with unnecessary scenes and flashbacks.

Yeah; when I was looking online for a list of the filler episodes in Naruto so I knew what to skip, I found out that something like 40% of the anime's content is filler and padding.

The desire to avoid that happening again for Boruto, especially since the manga is a monthly release rather than weekly, is the reason why the creators of the anime and manga have stated that both are canon, with the manga basically being the barebones version of the plot and the anime taking its time and expanding on everything (as well as adding back in things that had originally been cut from the Boruto movie for runtime). It's definitely a good idea, though it has apparently led to a lot of people not knowing that and thinking that something like 90% of the Boruto anime is filler.

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Yeah they can be neat.

The filler in Naruto really reached unacceptable levels. Even when there was no more manga left for the anime to overtake they still plopped a pretty heavy filler dose into the war arc. This was probably done to help ease the transition into Boruto but it was still irritating. Just as practically everything else about the war arc. 

Of the trio I'd say One Piece is objectively the best by a very wide margin. That said I've always had more of an attachment to Naruto than to One Piece, even if the end really made me sour on it. I can enjoy a little Bleach on the side but I've always found it a shame that it started out as a spirit cop hunting ghost and then gradually lost that unique perspective and just became the same shonen anime as the others. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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59 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I can enjoy a little Bleach on the side but I've always found it a shame that it started out as a spirit cop hunting ghost and then gradually lost that unique perspective and just became the same shonen anime as the others. 

Funnily enough the substitute shinigami arc is probably my least favorite arc of Bleach personally. It’s still a good arc cause personally there is no arc of Bleach that I actually dislike but it’s just the arc that had me the least engaged overall.

 

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The filler in Naruto really reached unacceptable levels. Even when there was no more manga left for the anime to overtake they still plopped a pretty heavy filler dose into the war arc. This was probably done to help ease the transition into Boruto but it was still irritating. Just as practically everything else about the war arc. 

I mean to be pedantic the stuff from episodes 480-500 of the shippuden anime weren’t filler but rather adaptations of three of the tie in novels that came out after the manga ended. As for the filler in the latter stretch of the war arc itself, they were working on two Naruto movies at the time(The last and Boruto). Though that doesn’t excuse just how disorganized perriot is at any rate. Regardless though, having just reread Naruto the war arc is probably tied with the pain arc for my favorite arc of the series but that’s just me.

 

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

The desire to avoid that happening again for Boruto, especially since the manga is a monthly release rather than weekly, is the reason why the creators of the anime and manga have stated that both are canon, with the manga basically being the barebones version of the plot and the anime taking its time and expanding on everything (as well as adding back in things that had originally been cut from the Boruto movie for runtime). It's definitely a good idea, though it has apparently led to a lot of people not knowing that and thinking that something like 90% of the Boruto anime is filler.

I don’t think that’s a desire to avoid “filler” as it is just a franchise thing cause dragon ball super is handled in the exact same way. In that the anime and manga happen concurrently and are both considered canon even though they can be pretty different. Because the Naruto anime was a direct adaptation of the manga where as the Boruto anime started at around the exact same time as the manga and was likely planned that way from the start for the sake of business and marketing. 

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The Boruto project was a real case study in bad planning

The anime probably started a bit too soon for its own good but it can be argued starting long before the manga made up for that. But the problem is that everything about the manga seemed designed to stall for time as much as possible. Its a monthly release so its already on a snails phase but they also made the bizarre decision to retell the Chunin exam despite this being a waste of time and paper. The end result was that when the academy arc ended the manga practically hadn't budged an inch yet while the anime was on the verge of catching up.

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If you've a tolerance for a canceled/cliffhangered anime, I'd recommend D.Gray-man. It's so unique and tonally distinct in the battle Shounen crowd. It also has a great protagonist who splits from the usual formula by being soft-spoken, gentle, and naive, with a hidden darker side.

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7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The filler in Naruto really reached unacceptable levels. Even when there was no more manga left for the anime to overtake they still plopped a pretty heavy filler dose into the war arc. This was probably done to help ease the transition into Boruto but it was still irritating. Just as practically everything else about the war arc. 

That's true. I can think of two other possible reasons they did that: The Last: Naruto the Movie, and Boruto the Movie.

By that, I mean that they were probably making the movies at the same time, since the movies were made after the manga ended, but over two years and over a year respectively before the anime ended. I don't know if they went on hiatus to make the movies (probably not), and if they weren't, then making filler would've been a way to be able to put more time into the movie.

 

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean to be pedantic the stuff from episodes 480-500 of the shippuden anime weren’t filler but rather adaptations of three of the tie in novels that came out after the manga ended. As for the filler in the latter stretch of the war arc itself, they were working on two Naruto movies at the time(The last and Boruto). Though that doesn’t excuse just how disorganized perriot is at any rate. Regardless though, having just reread Naruto the war arc is probably tied with the pain arc for my favorite arc of the series but that’s just me.

Indeed, and those episodes (480-500) were pretty good overall; I especially liked the episodes about Naruto and Hinata's wedding.

Funny; I was about to say that another reason for the filler was probably those two movies. Incidentally, in the episodes that added more to Kaguya's backstory (I don't know if they're considered filler or anime canon), still images of Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Urashiki Otsutsuki appear when Kaguya gives a motive-rant to her two sons. This was undoubtedly to build up the Boruto movie, but it also shows how the episode was made before they were finished editing the movie, as Urashiki Otsutsuki was cut from the final movie for runtime (the Boruto anime then added him back in when it covered the movie arc).

 

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I don’t think that’s a desire to avoid “filler” as it is just a franchise thing cause dragon ball super is handled in the exact same way. In that the anime and manga happen concurrently and are both considered canon even though they can be pretty different. Because the Naruto anime was a direct adaptation of the manga where as the Boruto anime started at around the exact same time as the manga and was likely planned that way from the start for the sake of business and marketing. 

Interesting; I didn't know that about Dragon Ball Super. Yeah; it was probably also for that. Another reason they did that, which the creator of the anime confirmed in an interview, was so that he could add back into the movie arc everything that was cut from the Boruto movie (which he also created) for runtime and have that stuff still be canon. Urashiki and Toneri's involvement in the story were examples he gave for this; it's unknown if anything else the anime added were also things that originally hit the movie's cutting room floor.

 

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Boruto project was a real case study in bad planning

The anime probably started a bit too soon for its own good but it can be argued starting long before the manga made up for that. But the problem is that everything about the manga seemed designed to stall for time as much as possible. Its a monthly release so its already on a snails phase but they also made the bizarre decision to retell the Chunin exam despite this being a waste of time and paper. The end result was that when the academy arc ended the manga practically hadn't budged an inch yet while the anime was on the verge of catching up.

Yeah; it definitely wasn't well planned, and I honestly think there needed to be a lot more communication between the manga writer and the anime team as there were just a number of things that obviously were due to bad communication:

Spoiler

the anime showing Koji plant a genjutsu on the scientist in the movie arc when the manga author was planning for it to be Ao who did that being the most obvious example.

I would definitely argue that; starting when it did also meant that they could adapt another one of the light novels (the second arc: the one that's basically entirely about Sarada, was adapted from a light novel, and it's generally considered an improvement over the light novel in a number of ways).

For me, one reason I would've preferred a lot more communication between the anime team and the manga writer has to do with some more relatively recent plot points:

Spoiler

The anime had the final fight against Urashiki take place in the past through time travel, with Jiraiya playing a big role in the fight and in the arc overall. Meanwhile, the manga created the character Koji Kashin: a clone of Jiraiya that Amado created to one day kill Jigen.

Had there been better communication between the anime and the manga, they could've done something to connect these two events; the most obvious one to me being that Urashiki could've planted a karma seal on Jiraiya (Sasuke erasing all the past characters' memories of what happened would've then caused Jiraiya to forget this; explaining it not changing the timeline at all), and then when Amado... gathered material... for cloning Jiraiya, he could've also found Urashiki's karma and kept it hidden until he learned how it got there.

Honestly, they probably could theoretically still do this, but it's rather unlikely that they will connect these two things now.

 

Anyway, I don't think the manga going over the movie again was to stall for time; if it was, it probably would've done the same expansion on events that the anime ended up doing (like adding back in Toneri and Urashiki). I think there were two reasons the manga started off by retreading the movie arc:

  1. It enabled the artist to, for lack of a better way of putting it, find his drawing style. Apparently, the artist was unsure what exactly he wanted to do in terms of art style, and Kishimoto (the author of Naruto) liked the art style the author ultimately came up with and had to tell the artist not to try to imitate his own drawing style.
  2. In order to add the scene of Momoshiki planting the karma seal on Boruto, as I'm pretty sure that scene wasn't in the movie, and the karma seal is a very important plot device in the manga.
Edited by vanguard333

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18 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting; I didn't know that about Dragon Ball Super. Yeah; it was probably also for that. Another reason they did that, which the creator of the anime confirmed in an interview, was so that he could add back into the movie arc everything that was cut from the Boruto movie (which he also created) for runtime and have that stuff still be canon. Urashiki and Toneri's involvement in the story were examples he gave for this; it's unknown if anything else the anime added were also things that originally hit the movie's cutting room floor.

You know speaking of the director of the Boruto anime. Hiroyuki Yamashita has stated he wanted to work on the Guy vs Madara fight in the anime but couldn’t because he was too busy with the Boruto movie and it shows because the production values during that section of the anime were beyond sub par. 

 

20 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I would definitely argue that; starting when it did also meant that they could adapt another one of the light novels (the second arc: the one that's basically entirely about Sarada, was adapted from a light novel, and it's generally considered an improvement over the light novel in a number of ways).

Are you referring to the scarlet springs arc? Cause that wasn’t a light novel but rather a one volume mini story that Kishimoto drew and wrote. 

 

23 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; it definitely wasn't well planned, and I honestly think there needed to be a lot more communication between the manga author and the anime team as there were just a number of things that obviously were due to bad communication:

I mean from my understanding the manga is worked on by two people. The writer Ukyo Kadachi and Ikemoto who does the art with Kishimoto supervising the whole thing(how much influence he actually had though is up to interpretation). Though now Kishimoto himself has taken over writing for the Boruto manga after the cancellation of Samurai 8. So yeah the boruto series has a lot of shit going on behind the scenes.

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45 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You know speaking of the director of the Boruto anime. Hiroyuki Yamashita has stated he wanted to work on the Guy vs Madara fight in the anime but couldn’t because he was too busy with the Boruto movie and it shows because the production values during that section of the anime were beyond sub par. 

 

Are you referring to the scarlet springs arc? Cause that wasn’t a light novel but rather a one volume mini story that Kishimoto drew and wrote. 

 

I mean from my understanding the manga is worked on by two people. The writer Ukyo Kadachi and Ikemoto who does the art with Kishimoto supervising the whole thing(how much influence he actually had though is up to interpretation). Though now Kishimoto himself has taken over writing for the Boruto manga after the cancellation of Samurai 8. So yeah the boruto series has a lot of shit going on behind the scenes.

1. That's interesting. Speaking of things that were due to them making the war arc and the movies at the same time, what did you think of that thing I mentioned involving the Kaguya episodes and the Boruto movie?

2. Yes; that's what I'm referring to. I see; I knew it was an adaptation of something Kishimoto wrote, but I didn't know the exact specifics. I'm surprised to hear that he also drew it, as I thought he said in an interview that he couldn't really come back to draw because of the physical toll drawing for Naruto took on him or something along those lines. Samurai 8 was even drawn by someone else. But I guess it being just a one-volume mini-story would explain that.

3. Oh; I honestly forgot that there was a separate writer and artist for the manga. I'll edit my statements to account for that.

Yeah; I heard about Kishimoto taking over. Does that mean he will be the one actually writing, or does it mean that he's now just overseeing the writing a lot more directly or something like that?

Edited by vanguard333

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21 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yes; that's what I'm referring to. I see; I knew it was an adaptation of something Kishimoto wrote, but I didn't know the exact specifics. I'm surprised to hear that he also drew it, as I thought he said in an interview that he couldn't really come back to draw because of the physical toll drawing for Naruto took on him or something along those lines. Samurai 8 was even drawn by someone else. But I guess it being just a one-volume mini-story would explain that.

I only know for a fact it was Kishimoto who drew it because I know Kishimoto’s artstyle when I see it. If you read a man’s manga for 700 chapters you really begin to pick up on those sorts of things. It definitely wasn’t Ikemoto that’s for sure and thank god for that. But yeah the life of a weekly mangaka is certainly a special kind of hell.

 

21 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

That's interesting. Speaking of things that were due to them making the war arc and the movies at the same time, what did you think of that thing I mentioned involving the Kaguya episodes and the Boruto movie?

I mean I barely paid attention during those episodes. Hell, I only really watched one and a half of them so I don’t have much to comment on that.

 

21 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; I heard about Kishimoto taking over. Does that mean he will be the one actually writing, or does it mean that he's now just overseeing the writing a lot more directly or something like that?

From my understanding, he’s fully taken control of the ship in that he’s the one writing the writing the script now not just overseeing it. Honestly I thought he’d take a longer break after Samurai 8 but I suppose you can’t keep an artist from his craft for very long.

Edited by Ottservia

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On 6/29/2021 at 8:53 PM, Ottservia said:

I only know for a fact it was Kishimoto who drew it because I know Kishimoto’s artstyle when I see it. If you read a man’s manga for 700 chapters you really begin to pick up on those sorts of things. It definitely wasn’t Ikemoto that’s for sure and thank god for that. But yeah the life of a weekly mangaka is certainly a special kind of hell.

 

I mean I barely paid attention during those episodes. Hell, I only really watched one and a half of them so I don’t have much to comment on that.

 

From my understanding, he’s fully taken control of the ship in that he’s the one writing the writing the script now not just overseeing it. Honestly I thought he’d take a longer break after Samurai 8 but I suppose you can’t keep an artist from his craft for very long.

1. I see. I looked online to double-check and yeah; Kishimoto did draw it.

2. I see. That makes sense. I watched them thinking they were manga content, and it wasn't until after those episodes that I double-checked the filler list I found online. At least checking it at that point meant I knew to skip the filler episodes going into the Sage of Six Paths' post-Kaguya backstory (I kid you not; there were at least six episodes dedicated to that, with the framing device being that the sage is telling all this to the four reanimated hokages while they prepare the teleportation jutsu to bring back the heroes).

3. Ah; that makes sense. Thanks for the info.

True. It might also have been because Samurai 8 ended prematurely (he apparently planned for it to be ten volumes long, but it was cancelled after just five volumes), so he might not have been ready to take a break just yet.

Edited by vanguard333

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By the way, regarding the Big 3, one thing I find interesting is just how often I see people discuss what exactly their "legacy" is whenever they discuss the Big 3. Admittedly, some people use it mainly just to talk about whatever Bleach's author or Naruto's author are doing now (and then inevitably make a joke about how One Piece is still going), and sometimes the discussion devolves into an angry toxic online war between fans of Boruto and fans of My Hero Academia over who is the "true" successor to Naruto, but the discussion comes up a lot and in a lot of different ways.

It's also kind-of funny seeing the supposed legacy get misattributed; Black Clover, for example, got compared a lot to Naruto and was often lumped alongside My Hero Academia and Boruto as one of the "post-Naruto" manga, when Black Clover's author has stated that his three main inspirations for Black Clover were The Lord of the Rings, Berserk, and Bleach; not Naruto.

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