NPCs who should have been playable

[Jotari]

So it came up in Alastor's playthrough of Shadows of Valentia that Irma, the random Mila priestess who knew Celica's mother, would have slotted in nicely as a playable character. The impetus for such being that she says she's going on ahead of Celica to Mila's temple, which involves crossing a desert and probably battling through two armies and reinforcements, one with a boss specifically saying he'd killed all the priestesses that tried to get through. Her staying with Celica would have made a lot more sense. But even just that little funky plot point aside, Irma would be pretty appreciated, as Celica only has one Cleric/Saint on her route and because of the Deen/Sonya split, her total endgame army count is one less than Alm's. She also would have been a good veichle for giving us more insight into Mila as a character, both her ideal and her reality.

But thinking on Irma, it made me question what other non playable characters would have been good as playable characters. I think the other two obvious choices are Shadow Dragon!Nyna and Guinevere. I'd actually be fine with having them as non combatant characters, if only they didn't go and make them combatants elsewhere. Guinevere even in the same game she debuted in.

Aside from those examples are there any other NPCs you think would have made good playable characters. Either for gameplay or story reasons. Random bosses count too (where's Haitaka at in Birthright anyway? And while I'm mentioning Birthright, I would have liked it if Elise had been temproarily playable to avoid interface spoilers, though I can see why they didn't go that route).

[Sooks]

Judith definitely should have been playable in Verdant Wind, especially since she just stands around in the monastery when you explore it unlike Silver Snow iirc where she doesn’t do that. Plus that would make up for the fact that Verdant Wind doesn’t have any exclusive units other than Claude in a unique way with her being a late joiner.

Yukimura should have been playable in Revelation, could a generic really not have been taking care of Hoshido in his place? I know no one would use him anyway, but it would still be nice to have in the route that’s about both kingdoms uniting, I mean he is high up in the Hoshido ranks.

[X-Naut]

This was a topic on the subreddit yesterday so I'll copy what I posted over there:

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Guinevere and Galle in Binding Blade.
The former is practically the deuteragonist, is playable in Trial Maps and would fill the void of a true light magic specialist. The latter's existent growth rates, wishy-washy AI and half-baked Camus status practically scream "recruit me!" They also fill the holes of a prepromote Sage and Wyvern Lord in a cast that otherwise covers all its bases.

 

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Judith definitely should have been playable in Verdant Wind, especially since she just stands around in the monastery when you explore it unlike Silver Snow iirc where she doesn’t do that. Plus that would make up for the fact that Verdant Wind doesn’t have any exclusive units other than Claude in a unique way with her being a late joiner.

Yukimura should have been playable in Revelation, could a generic really not have been taking care of Hoshido in his place? I know no one would use him anyway, but it would still be nice to have in the route that’s about both kingdoms uniting, I mean he is high up in the Hoshido ranks.

Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking about Three Houses when I made this, but there's a tonne of units from it that makes sense. I think aside from Judith, Narder or Nardel or whatever the Almyrian guy's name is practically begs to be recruitable in Verdant Wind.

7 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

This was a topic on the subreddit yesterday so I'll copy what I posted over there:

 

That is actually pure coincidence. I had no idea someone on reddit made this topic within the same two days as me. As far as Guinevere and Galle go, I've already mentioned Guinevere, but I'm pretty satisfied with Galle playing the Camus straight. Though the lack of prepromote Wyvern Lords is a salient point that has me reconsidering.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

That Zelgius seems like such a fine upstanding fellow in Path of Radiance. He totally should have joined Ike's army! Maybe he could even get his own class - say, "Red Knight".

For real, though - Zola in Birthright. Yeah I know what happens to him, but this could sell the illusion that he's really on your side. And you could get a Dark Mage, albeit briefly.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

But thinking on Irma, it made me question what other non playable characters would have been good as playable characters. I think the other two obvious choices are Shadow Dragon!Nyna and Guinevere. I'd actually be fine with having them as non combatant characters, if only they didn't go and make them combatants elsewhere. Guinevere even in the same game she debuted in.

I have to assume they aren't playable due to the paradigm of "people die when they are killed" that the early games held. In Shadow Dragon, I don't think there's a single playable character who "retreats" rather than outright dying. Ergo, for a non-Lord character to be plot-important, they must remain unplayable.

[Sasori]

Phila probably should have joined the party rather then get the very underwhelming death that she got. A character outliving her lord would make for a interesting character and she already had some established relationships with Frederick and Cordelia.

At the very least it would't be any less underwhelming then the sorry fate the game gave her. Getting killed of with no one mentioning it.

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I have to assume they aren't playable due to the paradigm of "people die when they are killed" that the early games held. In Shadow Dragon, I don't think there's a single playable character who "retreats" rather than outright dying. Ergo, for a non-Lord character to be plot-important, they must remain unplayable.

I think that's pretty understandable in NES Shadow Dragon, and again she was designed as something of a non combatant originally. But then when Old Mystery and BS Fire Emblem did make her a combatant, and subsequent games starting (sort of) from Genealogy did introduce retreating characters, there became less and less reason not to to do it come the Shadow Dragon remake. And even in the original they could have pulled a dual lord scenario and made it so she triggers a gameover too. They did experiment with two lords in the very next entry. Though if they had made Nyna a co lord in the first game that could have resulted in a very different perception of Marth as a character. As his status of first lord would have to be shared. And he could even potentially come across as the less important of the two. That would be pretty interesting. Especially in the sequel where there'd be less chance of Nyna being shafted by the plot (despite indirectly causing it) if she had been a playable protagonist previously.

[Acacia Sgt]

Personally, I'd be against making the likes of Nyna and Guinivere playable. I like the idea of NPC's tagging with the group but don't have to be forced to become playable. If you really think they should be doing something gameplay wise, then give us more people like the Tellius merchants, if you really want to.

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Personally, I'd be against making the likes of Nyna and Guinivere playable. I like the idea of NPC's tagging with the group but don't have to be forced to become playable. If you really think they should be doing something gameplay wise, then give us more people like the Tellius merchants, if you really want to.

Like I said, I would have had that perspective, if they didn't go and make them playable elsewhere in the game/series. At least one could say Nyna's playable moments are done from sheer desperation in the story. Course that's countered by her being a prepromote able to wield freaking Thoron.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Like I said, I would have had that perspective, if they didn't go and make them playable elsewhere in the game/series. At least one could say Nyna's playable moments are done from sheer desperation in the story. Course that's countered by her being a prepromote able to wield freaking Thoron.

Consider when are they playable. A single BS FE map where the objective is to escort her, thus turning it into an actual gameplay challenge. And the very final map of an unlockable extended ending where they thought to make her rescue into a playable thing. It's all for the gameplay, considering Medeus can recover HP by killing the clerics. If I recall, Kaga would repeat this in... TearRing Saga I think, with another quartet of maidens needing rescue on the final map.

Guinivere... is in what is basically a post-game mode. It's more for the novelty of it. Not unlike Sacred Stones or Path of Radiance's post-games. Consider you also get to play with dead people, or other NPC's. So by your logic, Eliwood also being a Trial Mapper, he should've been playable in the main story too? Hayden for Sacred Stones as well?

Edited July 1, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Consider when are they playable. A single BS FE map where the objective is to escort her, thus turning it into an actual gameplay challenge. And the very final map of an unlockable extended ending where they thought to make her rescue into a playable thing. It's all for the gameplay, considering Medeus can recover HP by killing the clerics. If I recall, Kaga would repeat this in... TearRing Saga I think, with another quartet of maidens needing rescue on the final map.

I mean, I did say that exact thing in my previous comment.

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Guinivere... is in what is basically a post-game mode. It's more for the novelty of it. Not unlike Sacred Stones or Path of Radiance's post-games. Consider you also get to play with dead people, or other NPC's. So by your logic, Eliwood also being a Trial Mapper, he should've been playable in the main story too? Hayden for Sacred Stones as well?

Honestly playable Eliwood and Hayden wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Though both of them have far less focus in the story as characters (coming to think of it, why is Hayden so out of focus? Lazy ass delegating saving the world to his children).

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I mean, I did say that exact thing in my previous comment.

Honestly playable Eliwood and Hayden wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Though both of them have far less focus in the story as characters (coming to think of it, why is Hayden so out of focus? Lazy ass delegating saving the world to his children).

And that's the point I'm refuting. Just because they were made briefly playable elsewhere doesn't mean they have to be playable everywhere.

It wouldn't, but it still wouldn't make much sense. Both have countries to look after, which is why it's their children who are out fighting and not they.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Honestly playable Eliwood and Hayden wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Though both of them have far less focus in the story as characters (coming to think of it, why is Hayden so out of focus? Lazy ass delegating saving the world to his children).

Hayden could function great as a Gotoh in a game that doesn't otherwise have one. He could join right after beating chapter 19. Give him S Bows out the gate, so that he can wield Vidofnir, in case you haven't raised up any other bow users. Instant C-support access with Tana and Innes seens intuitive as well.

59 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think that's pretty understandable in NES Shadow Dragon, and again she was designed as something of a non combatant originally. But then when Old Mystery and BS Fire Emblem did make her a combatant, and subsequent games starting (sort of) from Genealogy did introduce retreating characters, there became less and less reason not to to do it come the Shadow Dragon remake. And even in the original they could have pulled a dual lord scenario and made it so she triggers a gameover too. They did experiment with two lords in the very next entry. Though if they had made Nyna a co lord in the first game that could have resulted in a very different perception of Marth as a character. As his status of first lord would have to be shared. And he could even potentially come across as the less important of the two. That would be pretty interesting. Especially in the sequel where there'd be less chance of Nyna being shafted by the plot (despite indirectly causing it) if she had been a playable protagonist previously.

If we were to get, say, a "reimagining" of FE1, then I could definitely see a playable Nyna happening. That said, I do think leaving her as an NPC in the remake was the right choice. Making her a second Lord would seriously impact game design (now Nyna can sieze, I guess?), as well as compromise this being "Marth's story". Meanwhile, making her a non-Game-Over unit would compromise the "people die when they are killed" standard. Which may be outdated, sure, but I have to respect the fidelity to the original on this front.

[Jotari]

45 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

And that's the point I'm refuting. Just because they were made briefly playable elsewhere doesn't mean they have to be playable everywhere.

Of course it doesn't mean they have to be. They're in the game as unplayable characters as is. So of course they don't have to be. But these other appearances to show that they can fight, and there's no real plot reason for them not to. Except maybe Ginevere not wanting to fight her own countrymen, but she is resolving to help the people who are doing that, so while it's emotionally understandable it is still hypocritical. And would actually make for a decent mini character arc.

45 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It wouldn't, but it still wouldn't make much sense. Both have countries to look after, which is why it's their children who are out fighting and not they.

Eliwood yeah, but I don't think Hayden has that excuse. They know there's a great evil threatening world, someone else can look after the taxes for a few days while he does what he can to stop the return of Satan.

24 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hayden could function great as a Gotoh in a game that doesn't otherwise have one. He could join right after beating chapter 19. Give him S Bows out the gate, so that he can wield Vidofnir, in case you haven't raised up any other bow users. Instant C-support access with Tana and Innes seens intuitive as well.

I was about to say it'd be awesome to have something resembling a canon Bow Armoured unit for Heroes, but that Generals couldn't use bows in Sacred Stones, but then I looked Haydan up and saw he's a bow knight. Guess I was confusing him with Fado. Still, a prepromote bow knight as a Gotoh would be nice. Especially considering the game doesn't give you a playable bow knight to begin with, and it kind of being the non standard alternate class for Mercenary and Archer (who in traditional Fire Emblem fashion go Hero and Sniper), so there's no one in Sacred Stones who is really associated with the bow knight class even though there's a few units who can use it (wait, is it only two? Gerick and Neimi? Aren't there any other mercenaries?).

24 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If we were to get, say, a "reimagining" of FE1, then I could definitely see a playable Nyna happening. That said, I do think leaving her as an NPC in the remake was the right choice. Making her a second Lord would seriously impact game design (now Nyna can sieze, I guess?), as well as compromise this being "Marth's story". Meanwhile, making her a non-Game-Over unit would compromise the "people die when they are killed" standard. Which may be outdated, sure, but I have to respect the fidelity to the original on this front.

Yeah, I wasn't really suggesting a dual lord scenario in DS Shadow Dragon, just imagining an alternate timeline where something like that happened in FE1. I think once it was Marth's story it was better to stay that way. That being said, her as a normal character I don't think would be the worse thing in the world for DS Shadow Dragon. Fidelity to the original is all well and good, but I think it can go too far. And while Shadow Dragon didn't in a lot of regards, it did in some others. I would have really liked if they had characterized Hardin more at the very least.

Also according to the wiki Nyna actually was planned to be playable in the original game, but as a cavalier and not a bishop, with said role eventually being taken by Hardin (maybe per someone pointing out the whole what if she dies thing). That being said it just mentions a "document" as a source for this, so I'm not sure how true it is. If anyone has more information on what this document might be do tell.

[AnonymousSpeed]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That Zelgius seems like such a fine upstanding fellow in Path of Radiance. He totally should have joined Ike's army! Maybe he could even get his own class - say, "Red Knight".

Such a trustworthy fellow indeed. Perhaps he could have a unique promotion, a "Green Knight" of some sort.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I have to assume they aren't playable due to the paradigm of "people die when they are killed" that the early games held. In Shadow Dragon, I don't think there's a single playable character who "retreats" rather than outright dying. Ergo, for a non-Lord character to be plot-important, they must remain unplayable

Huh, very interesting theory, it actually makes a lot of sense.

***

Playable Guinevere in Binding Blade is like playable Roll in Mega Man. Sure, it's been done, but mostly as a gag or bonus content. Fun? Sure, but the character isn't really a fighter, so as far as the "serious main game" is concerned, whatever niche they fill is better served by a different character altogether. Playable Irma would've been cool though.

[FailWood]

Fargus from Blazing Sword.  Would've been a great late game addition, plus I'd imagine he would've had a mix of both fun and serious supports.

[Acacia Sgt]

32 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Playable Guinevere in Binding Blade is like playable Roll in Mega Man. Sure, it's been done, but mostly as a gag or bonus content. Fun? Sure, but the character isn't really a fighter, so as far as the "serious main game" is concerned, whatever niche they fill is better served by a different character altogether. Playable Irma would've been cool though.

I'd say, for those kind of things we already have FEH. Bow-wielding Jorge anyone? Should we now expect that in a Tellius remaster/remake? Exactly. Otherwise, let NPC's be NPC's. Not everyone has to take to the battlefield.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Rhea´s paralogue should have been a flashback to the Battle in the Tailtean Plains, with her and her fellow dragon people facing Nemesis and his boys, instead of the meh kill these dudes. Grant her playability, before she becomes mommy archbishop. Or maybe a row of flashbacks for DLC? She fought a full blown war against Nemesis and did the whole FE story stick herself. Or, the battle between Empire v Kingdom - at the very least the Kingdom leader dude would be relevant, no? The Alliance also didn´t walk out on the kingdom peacefully, did it?

Anna in SD, for her name is Anna and there are many - just replace the pity units name with Anna and you are good to go. 

[Acacia Sgt]

It might not mean much, but I feel the title may have worked better as "could have been playable" instead of "should".

[OuendanCyrus]

I always thought that if Blazing Sword had an extra mode like Binding Blade and Sacred Stones, then characters like Fargus, Ephidel, Limstella, Jan, etc. would be playable.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Irma in Shadows of Valentia, Galle in Binding Blade, and Yukimura in Fates Revelation all come to mind. Part of me wants to say Nyna in Shadow Dragon and Guinivere in Binding Blade, but I'm not sure how those two would really work.

[Benice]

I feel that Jeralt should have been playable in TH. It'd be fairly easy to explain to the player to not bother training him because he's overleveled and is already a teacher. It is FE, so veterans do know what sort of stuff happens to fathers, but I feel like the target painted on his back was a little too large.

Plus, I feel like he could have helped Maddening's earlygame a fair bit, but that's neither here nor there.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Alright, time to suggest some that aren't on anyone's radar apparently.

How about Morva from Sacred Stones. He would work perfectly as a Gotoh for that game.

It would be interesting if Athos got a Samson/Arran like choice with Bramimond in FE7

As much mention as there has been for Gotoh like characters, adding Gotoh to Mystery and/or New Mystery seems like a no-brainer

Now for a non-Gotoh like character suggestion, letting Shannam's brief and secret appearance in FE4 become a recruitment would be interesting.

Back on this non-Gotoh trend, how about a young Murdock joining either on, or just after Battle Before Dawn.

Getting Sigrun in Path of Radiance would be interesting.

A bit more unlikely of an addition to Path of Radiance, that would still be interesting would be to have a level appropriate Gareth join after they crash into Goldoa.

As for Radiant Dawn, cutting Largo from the game was just ridiculous, he should have been playable.

 

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alright, time to suggest some that aren't on anyone's radar apparently.

How about Morva from Sacred Stones. He would work perfectly as a Gotoh for that game.

Kind of takes away Morva's one thing in the story, which is dying and becoming a draco zombie. Though having him playable for creature campaign would have been cool. Especially as it'd mean he comes with a second dragonstone for Myrrh to use should you want to use her further (without glitching her dragonstone back to full durability).

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It would be interesting if Athos got a Samson/Arran like choice with Bramimond in FE7

Braimimond actually has an unseen unique class and, I think, bases. So not entirely impossible.

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As much mention as there has been for Gotoh like characters, adding Gotoh to Mystery and/or New Mystery seems like a no-brainer

Oh absolutely. Especially in New Mystery. When you've already but such a ridiculous number of characters in the game, you might as well include Gotoh. There's no in story reason for him not to be fighting during  the end game.

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Now for a non-Gotoh like character suggestion, letting Shannam's brief and secret appearance in FE4 become a recruitment would be interesting.

I don't think he'd really add much to Genealogy.

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Back on this non-Gotoh trend, how about a young Murdock joining either on, or just after Battle Before Dawn.

Murdock's cool, but I can't really imagine any reason why he would leave Zephiel's side and start working with these nobles from foreign nations. It'd probably take some decent sized rewrites for that to come across as not contrived.

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Getting Sigrun in Path of Radiance would be interesting.

Eh, we have Thanith already who provides a similar niche and Sigrun makes sense staying with Sanaki.

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A bit more unlikely of an addition to Path of Radiance, that would still be interesting would be to have a level appropriate Gareth join after they crash into Goldoa.

I actually think that's a great idea. Gareth is the most boring Tellius character  by a long stretch. Having him be playable in Path of Radiance could have changed that a lot. And just in general having a dragon to use for the majority of the game would be fun. Though it'd probably be hard to balance him so as to be strong enough to be impressive, but not too strong as to steam roll the game. Path of Radiance does already have issues with being on the easy side and having quite powerful prepromotes, adding another wouldn't really help that.

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As for Radiant Dawn, cutting Largo from the game was just ridiculous, he should have been playable.

Agreed. Even if they really didn't want to have a berserker class, just make him a warrior. It'd be less weird than the several units who change their primary weapon type.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Jotari

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Murdock's cool, but I can't really imagine any reason why he would leave Zephiel's side and start working with these nobles from foreign nations. It'd probably take some decent sized rewrites for that to come across as not contrived.

It wouldn't take much rewriting at all, the reason Vaida states for joining would work just as well for Murdock. In some ways it would work better for Murdock, whom feels more personally connected to Zephiel, and would feel indebted for the FE7 crew saving Zephiel when he wasn't there to do so himself.