Thoughts on MCs as units

[FailWood]

Made a topic before regarding how they are as characters, but what are some thoughts on them as units?  Like before, stick only to the games you've played (to avoid confusion, don't talk about how they are in Heroes).

Edited July 2, 2021 by FailWood

[indigoasis]

They'll typically be some of the best units in their respective games (with exceptions).

• Marth: Infantry Sword Lock that can't promote or switch classes. To be fair, he's already in a really good class, and I've heard that he's actually a God-Tier unit in FE1 due to having stupidly high growths for some reason. No matter what, he'll typically be a consistently good unit.
• Alm: Marth, but better. He can promote and switch classes, gets access to bows when he promotes, and is just an excellent unit overall.
• Celica: Same deal as Alm, but doesn't get bows on promotion. However, she has access to Magic from the start, so will probably end up more well-rounded than Alm, especially since she can switch between different damage types (so she can target a foe's Defense or Resistance, depending on which is lower). Another excellent unit.
• Sigurd: Arguably one of the best units in the series, and for good reason. He's a pre-promoted Lord on a mount (in a game where mounts can make or break a unit), with access to both swords and lances from the beginning (the first lord to have lance-access in the series, which is just as well since it was the same game where the weapon-triangle was introduced). He can solo the first generation no problem.
• Seliph: Very similar to his father, but he's a version that you get to train up, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. He starts off as an infantry sword lock, but can promote into the same class as his dad once he hits Level 20, I believe. If you give him the right equipment, he can become an even better unit than Sigurd, which is really saying something since Sigurd is already stupidly powerful.
• Leif: I don't have as much experience with Leif as I would like, but he's not the best Lord as a unit (he's still good, though). However, he does a really good job of supporting other units, which is what he's more or less meant to do. He's not the most powerful, but he instead gives power to others. Great unit for support.
• Roy: Arguably one of the worst lords in the series due to him being weak for a majority of the game. He's really jus piggybacking off of other units until he can promote. Ohh, but once he does, he's pretty good. That doesn't excuse the fact that the game is already almost done by the time he promotes, but oh well.

Yeah, I think I'll leave it at that for now. I typically feel pretty confident covering the first half of the Lords in the series, but not so much the second half. 

[Topaz Light]

As before, sticking only to characters whose games I've experienced enough of myself to feel I can really have informed opinions on...

• MARTH: He's actually really darned good in FE1. His stats are quite solid considering the game's stat scaling (max 52 HP, 7 Res, 20 all other stats), he's got access to a great weapon type and three good Prf weapons (one of which is sold in infinite supply like ordinary weapons!), good Movement for an infantry unit... really, what's not to like? He's not quite as good in the DS games, but he's still far from terrible, and the DS installments' Forging mechanic allows you to make his Rapiers almost as silly as Caeda's Wing Spear. Not entirely consistent in terms of how strong he is, but he's pretty reliably at least a decent infantry sword guy! Also worth noting is that, in all games he stars in, Marth is the sole unit able to visit Villages, and also gains the ability to open treasure chests completely for free quite early on, so he can do some good utility things, too.
• ALM: Fairly strong in both the original game and the remake. Infantry swordfighters are kind of a dime a dozen in Gaiden and SoV, but he's a pretty good one, and promotion does grant him the interesting distinction of being the only Valentian character with access to two different physical weapon types at once.
• CELICA: I'm probably biased, but I just love the class she's in and how versatile she is. She's got physical damage, magical damage—including early access to anti-Terror effectiveness—and basic healing. She's ultimately not unique, since you can get at least three other Priestesses, but I do think she's really cool, and her sheer versatility makes me think a bit of Cavaliers in other installments, though she obviously lacks their mobility... that eternal 4 Movement smarts.
• LYN: She's a Myrmidon. She is literally just a Myrmidon with access to The Cooler Rapier, and she gets bows instead of +15% crit for promoting.
• ELIWOOD: Pretty middle-of-the-road. He's not terrible, but he's just kinda Infantry Sword Guy #7. His promotion is nice, at least, even if it does come a bit late. Paladins are consistently great, even without axes, and as an Extra-Fancy Paladin, Eliwood inherits many of the class's strengths when he promotes.
• HECTOR: He basically has the strong points of both a Knight and a Fighter, which makes him nice and bulky and hard-hitting, if slow and a bit less accurate than he could be. He's not comically-overpowered like old fanbase memes made him out to be, but he's a very hardy and reliable unit for pretty much the whole game!
• EIRIKA: Like Lyn, she is literally just a Myrmidon with Rapier access. In her case, she gets a horse for promoting instead of bows or a +15% critical bonus.
• EPHRAIM: Really solid stats all around, as I recall, and though he's locked to just one weapon type, it's a really good one. Boring as I find his promotion to be, a horse is an extremely useful and practical boon for any unit to have, so it naturally makes the already-strong Ephraim even more of a force to be reckoned with.
• CHROM: Very Mercenary-like stat line, but that's not a bad thing. He's a really solid unit, and it helps him a lot that he has incredible effective damage options straight out of the gate, too. The Falchion eats otherwise-daunting Wyvern Riders for breakfast. If you've got a Second Seal to spare, you can trade in his Rapier/Noble Rapier access for a horse (and early Lance access, depending on when you use it) if you'd like, which is I think a pretty reasonable trade.
• ROBIN: Prone to some variance based on gender (due to reclass options) and the Asset/Flaw combination you pick, but I doubt it's possible to make Robin any worse than "solid". I'm not entirely sure how they compare to the rest of your army assuming being leveled evenly (probably still fairly good), but they are literally designed to snowball given Veteran and how powerful Pair-Up is in Awakening. Plus, with the exception of a few oddball (in this respect) installments, Tomes are almost never a bad weapon type to have access to.
• LUCINA: She's a second-generation unit in Awakening and her fixed parent is solid and force-deployed in every story map, plus she has a great Prf sword that she can use in any class that's able to use the weapon type. She's pretty much destined to be great, though just how great she is long-term is somewhat dependent on who her mother is.
• ALFONSE: IIRC Alfonse actually ended up being surprisingly solid, what with his refines changing his weapon's buffs from Defiant- to Brazen-type. The Triangle Adept skill refine is inherently situational, but he has potential as a slow, tanky heavy-hitter.
• SHARENA: She's a pretty balanced lancer! She doesn't really stand out, but she's usable for the quests you need her for and such. I've always meant to put a proper build on her, but ended up just sort of putting it off indefinitely.
• ANNA (FEH): I haven't quite found a use for her, admittedly. She's fast and fragile... and thoroughly outshone by other characters who are faster, stronger, and far less delicate. Her Prf refine seems like it could be fun to play around with, but I'm not sure how best to make use of it.

 

On 7/2/2021 at 6:14 PM, indigoasis said:

• Marth: Infantry Sword Lock that can't promote or switch classes. To be fair, he's already in a really good class, and I've heard that he's actually a God-Tier unit in FE1 due to having stupidly high growths for some reason. No matter what, he'll typically be a consistently good unit.

He is really good in FE1, though his growths, while definitely very good, aren't actually remotely unmatched; there are plenty of other units in the game with similar growth rates. I think there are several meaningful differences between FE1 and DSFE in terms of Marth and how he relates to other units that contribute to him being so good in FE1:

1. The addition of Reclassing in Shadow Dragon (and retained in New Mystery) introduces a new weakness for Marth relative to other units that wasn't a factor in FE1 (or FE3, for that matter). Because nobody can reclass in FE1, Marth being unable to isn't a shortcoming unique to him; that's just how every unit works in that game.
2. FE1 has no weapon triangle, which means that Marth isn't stuck with constant minor stat penalties against most enemies like he is in DSFE.
3. FE1's follow-up threshold is just one more point of Attack Speed than the opponent, and Swords are the lightest melee weapon type, which means Marth doubles a lot more frequently. This is also helped by the fact that...
4. Rapiers, while still only usable by Marth, are sold in shops in unlimited supply like regular weapons in FE1. Combine this with the fact that they don't have weapon triangle disadvantage against almost everything they're effective against...
5. FE1 has fairly low universal stat caps (52 HP, 7 Resistance, 12 Movement, 20 for all other stats), and uses the same style of promotion gains as Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia; that is, "raise stat to X value if applicable" rather than fixed bonuses. While promotion is still definitely a leg up in FE1, the gulf between Marth and units who can promote is significantly smaller compared to in DSFE. As well, FE1 has a lot of units who can't promote at all; the number of characters capable of promotion in FE1 sits at just over 40% of the recruitable roster. Only Cavaliers, Archers, Mercenaries, Pegasus Knights, Mages, and Curates are able to promote at all, and realistically none of your four Curates are going to be reaching level 10 considering how they have to be leveled up. The stat gulf between prepromotes and tier 1 recruits in FE1 is also noticeably smaller than in later games, which also helps keep Marth from being as outclassed, comparatively.

This is just my analysis of the situation, of course. Someone else may be able to provide a more accurate one.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Topaz Light

[henrymidfields]

Roy: A missed opportunity that needs to be rectified with skills and rallies similar to Fates/Three Houses, unlimited supports (as a leader examining his troops, and being the Big Brother to his soldiers), and leadership stars. Basically he should have been in a game that allows wider support utility.

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/2/2021 at 8:14 PM, indigoasis said:

• Marth: Infantry Sword Lock that can't promote or switch classes. To be fair, he's already in a really good class, and I've heard that he's actually a God-Tier unit in FE1 due to having stupidly high growths for some reason. No matter what, he'll typically be a consistently good unit.

I'd note that he's significantly worse off in SD relative to his other games. Why? Long story short, most of the changes SD brought were not kind to Marth; the existence of the Wing Spear means he's outclassed in what was previously his main niche, because the Wing Spear is much stronger (and while forging exists, the Wing Spear is a much better forge option due to being stronger), the weapon triangle being added means he's at a disadvantage against most enemies, everyone can promote now, except him (as opposed to only a portion of units), the fact that caps are no longer 20, and the mechanics for promotion being changed (SD makes it such that promotion gains are the difference between the old class's base stats and the new class's base stats, as opposed to raising stats to the bases of the new class if possible; for example, promoting an Archer to a Sniper in SD has them gain 8 HP, 2 Strength, 5 Skill and Speed, 1 Defence, and 3 Resistance). All of this means Marth generally struggles to keep up with others. It doesn't help that he's no longer the best Medeus slayer (especially in the higher difficulties, where he's outright unviable as one).