Is forging really worth it?

[Armchair General]

I'm almost done with the GD campaign. Procrastinating because I'm bored of 3H, already. Next map requires me to fight off the evil underground people and I don't really have any questions about that map. The level of detail is kind of cool, tbh.

 

But I'm sitting on a pile of ore and a handful of forged weapons and here I'm wondering if an extra point of Mt or AS worth it? Sure, the accuracy boost is a no-brainer, put at least SoV and Awakening the gave out better reasons for visiting the smithy.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Armchair General

[Dark Holy Elf]

Forged weapons are almost always just a bit more effective than unforged ones. More uses too, so you don't have to repair them as often. So if you have the resources, why not?

Like almost everything else in 3H it's not needed but it is nice.

[Sooks]

If you’re playing maddening then yes, most definitely, but otherwise… I mean, if you just have the one sitting around, you might as well? It’s not really necessary on normal or hard. Kind of overkill tbh, although magic weapons are the exception here since if a unit is built around them of course you’ll want to forge a couple.

[lenticular]

They vary a lot in quality. Some of the forged versions of weapons are definitely worth it, though. Getting an extra point of range on magic weapons (levin sword, bolt axe and magic bow) is great. Or there's the +10 points of crit you can get on a killer bow or a wo dao from forging them which will make a big difference to a crit build. But then there are other forges that just give tiny incremental bonuses that are hard to get excited about. This is fine for basic weapons which are upgraded with basic ores, because, yeah, why not? There's really no reason not to upgrade your silver lances to silver lances+. But then there are some upgrades that take rarer ores that are definitely not worth it. For instance, upgrading from a spear to a spear+ costs 6 wootz steel but gives only +1 might and +10 durability. It's hard to think of any circumstances where that would be worth it.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Forged weapons are almost always just a bit more effective than unforged ones. More uses too, so you don't have to repair them as often. So if you have the resources, why not?

Like almost everything else in 3H it's not needed but it is nice.

Seconding this. It's not strictly necessary, but... why not improve your weapons?

That said, there are three distinct actions that fall under the "forge": repairing, improving, and evolving. I assume you're referring specifically to "improving" - that is, turning a weapon into its "+" form? In this case, improved weapons get decisive advantages. Training Weapons lose 2 Weight, making it easier to double with them. Effective weapons (i.e. Armorslayers) gain 20 Hit, so they're more secure in dealing effective hits. Killer weapons gain 10 more Crit, making critical builds more reliable. And the extra range on magical weapons is always welcome. I usually wait until my "base" weapon is low on uses, but when that happens, the extra cost of "improving" is generally worth it, relative to "repairing".

[Jotari]

It's really a question of what else are you going to spend the resources on? Because it absolutely is worth the amount of time it takes to literally do it, especially if you're repairing weapons anyway. Forging Magical Weapons is also a big deal because of that extra point of range.

[Ertrick36]

I mean, if you're running low on money then maybe hold off, but otherwise there's no reason not to do it except you just don't feel like doing it.  I don't think the extra uses will mean a whole lot to you because you're so late into the game, but more damage doesn't hurt anybody... except your enemies, heheh.

I will agree, though, smithing in Awakening and Echoes felt more worthwhile.

[Marco]

More or less reaffirming what has already been said. No reason not to forge, especially basic weapons like training/iron/steel etc. Forging training weapons I find to especially worth it, even more so on maddening where you really need to get the upper hand on AS... or at least *try* to.

[Barren]

One of my favorite weapons to forge is the Rapier since when it’s forged it gets 45 durability points and a might of 9 (I think) plus a crit of 20.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 minutes ago, Barren said:

One of my favorite weapons to forge is the Rapier since when it’s forged it gets 45 durability points and a might of 9 (I think) plus a crit of 20.

The Rapier is just hilariously overtuned in general. It's light, it's accurate, it's more durable than any other effective weapon (excepting Bows), and it gets a crit bonus. Oh, and it's an E-rank sword, so literally any unit in any class can make use of it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The Rapier+ is indeed great. It gives anyone with a magical sword combat art a guaranteed kill on cavalry (and probably armours, although magic-users don't usually need help killing those) for the entire game, and is accurate enough to overcome even the Swordbreaker+ that paladins carry. It was an invaluable weapon on both my mage-only and sword-only playthroughs! Good stuff; by far one of the best swords in the game. Also seconding the comments that forging the magic weapons is great, can't beat +1 range, especially with how linked attacks work in this game. It's actually perfectly reasonable for someone to hold a Levin Sword+ or Bolt Axe+ without the intention of ever using it, because of the threat range it offers for linked attacks (a longbow can play a similar role).

19 hours ago, lenticular said:

For instance, upgrading from a spear to a spear+ costs 6 wootz steel but gives only +1 might and +10 durability. It's hard to think of any circumstances where that would be worth it.

Agreed with this. The problem is that wootz steel is limited (a typical playthrough only nets you around 30, and that assumes the Sothis and Marianne paralogues are done and that you break most of the wolves therein) and that there is a much better use for it than this: namely brave weapons, which yield +1 might (which is actually +2 damage, given how they work), +10 hit (on some of the less accurate weapons in the game, so it actualy means something), and +10 durability. The Spear+ upgrade is far less potent, even seting aside that the weapon itself is IMO less useful at base.

[Barren]

16 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The Rapier+ is indeed great. It gives anyone with a magical sword combat art a guaranteed kill on cavalry (and probably armours, although magic-users don't usually need help killing those) for the entire game, and is accurate enough to overcome even the Swordbreaker+ that paladins carry. It was an invaluable weapon on both my mage-only and sword-only playthroughs! Good stuff; by far one of the best swords in the game. Also seconding the comments that forging the magic weapons is great, can't beat +1 range, especially with how linked attacks work in this game. It's actually perfectly reasonable for someone to hold a Levin Sword+ or Bolt Axe+ without the intention of ever using it, because of the threat range it offers for linked attacks (a longbow can play a similar role).

Agreed with this. The problem is that wootz steel is limited (a typical playthrough only nets you around 30, and that assumes the Sothis and Marianne paralogues are done and that you break most of the wolves therein) and that there is a much better use for it than this: namely brave weapons, which yield +1 might (which is actually +2 damage, given how they work), +10 hit (on some of the less accurate weapons in the game, so it actualy means something), and +10 durability. The Spear+ upgrade is far less potent, even seting aside that the weapon itself is IMO less useful at base.

Levin Swords when forged also deserve a mention too. Plus you get one for free as early as chapter 6 and it’s good to use incase you want to conserve your tomes like thoron or if a brawler/grappler/war master carries tomebreaker (which they do). Arcane crystals though while not common to come by is at least potentially obtainable by feeding the stray cats. Part 2 has a dark merchant that sells them so it’ll work out.

As for forging spears or tomahawks, this is why I tend to stick with forged Javelins and Hand Axes. It’s cheaper and easier to maintain by a comfortable margin. Yes they are weaker in terms of damage but I’d rather keep buying smithing stones then hope to get wootz steels. If anything I’d rather use them on brave weapons.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Barren said:

As for forging spears or tomahawks, this is why I tend to stick with forged Javelins and Hand Axes. It’s cheaper and easier to maintain by a comfortable margin. Yes they are weaker in terms of damage but I’d rather keep buying smithing stones then hope to get wootz steels. If anything I’d rather use them on brave weapons.

Honestly, ranged physical weapons that aren't bows just aren't worth it in this game. Like, compare the Javelin+ (3 Might, 80 Hit, 8 Weight) to the Iron Bow+ (7 Might, 95 Hit, 5 Weight). Even with a class-based Lancefaire, Lance Prowess Lv. 5, and no Bow Prowess, the two weapons tie in Hit rate, and the Javelin+ only has 1 point of damage over the Iron Bow+ (which, in turn, has 3 points of weight under its competitor). And while no Lance-based combat arts can be used at range, the Iron Bow can be used with Curved Shot for extra hit and/or range. The Javelin can have better hit with Swordbreaker, granted, but that's situational. It can also counter at melee range, but so can Bows (with Close Counter) - plus, if your lance unit is taking a direct hit, they'd rather be wielding a higher-Might and/or lowe-Weight lance. Finally, the Iron Bow has a decisive damage advantage over enemy fliers.

So even in a lance-oriented build, the Iron Bow+ is at least competetive with the Javelin+. The Hand Axe+ fares somewhat better in Might, but worse in Hit and Weight. Same story for higher-rank throwing weapons. Don't get me wrong, I still use these weapons on relevant builds, but I'd probably be better off replacing them with bows.

18 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Also seconding the comments that forging the magic weapons is great, can't beat +1 range, especially with how linked attacks work in this game. It's actually perfectly reasonable for someone to hold a Levin Sword+ or Bolt Axe+ without the intention of ever using it, because of the threat range it offers for linked attacks (a longbow can play a similar role).

That's what I've been doing with Dancer!Marianne on my latest playthrough. Providing a combat boost, just by being within 3 steps of an enemy, is really cool.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Honestly, ranged physical weapons that aren't bows just aren't worth it in this game. Like, compare the Javelin+ (3 Might, 80 Hit, 8 Weight) to the Iron Bow+ (7 Might, 95 Hit, 5 Weight). Even with a class-based Lancefaire, Lance Prowess Lv. 5, and no Bow Prowess, the two weapons tie in Hit rate, and the Javelin+ only has 1 point of damage over the Iron Bow+ (which, in turn, has 3 points of weight under its competitor). And while no Lance-based combat arts can be used at range, the Iron Bow can be used with Curved Shot for extra hit and/or range. The Javelin can have better hit with Swordbreaker, granted, but that's situational. It can also counter at melee range, but so can Bows (with Close Counter) - plus, if your lance unit is taking a direct hit, they'd rather be wielding a higher-Might and/or lowe-Weight lance. Finally, the Iron Bow has a decisive damage advantage over enemy fliers.

I largely agree. And I'll also added that Three Houses is more of a player phase installment than most previous games, and javelins and hand axes only really ever shine in enemy phase heavy games where they can be used to counter 1-2 range. Maddening even adds extra range to all its archers making the niche of javelins and hand axes even less utilized.

[Barren]

Those are good points @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate and @Jotari. I forgot that iron bows in general hit way harder than hand axes and javelins in this game. Even before they forge. Plus isn’t Iron Bows an E rank weapon as well? If so then they really outclass those weapons by a lot more.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Barren said:

Those are good points @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate and @Jotari. I forgot that iron bows in general hit way harder than hand axes and javelins in this game. Even before they forge. Plus isn’t Iron Bows an E rank weapon as well? If so then they really outclass those weapons by a lot more.

I think Iron Bows are D rank while Training Bows are E rank. Though personally I find myself using training weapons much more than Iron Weapons as their low cost, high durability and high accuracy makes them perfect for burning through durability for combat arts. Typically, outside of mages, I try to get my entire army up to D rank with Bows and stick em with a Training Bow for the extra versatility it provides when positioning units for kills.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I largely agree. And I'll also added that Three Houses is more of a player phase installment than most previous games, and javelins and hand axes only really ever shine in enemy phase heavy games where they can be used to counter 1-2 range. Maddening even adds extra range to all its archers making the niche of javelins and hand axes even less utilized.

In fact, bow-specialist classes have Bowrange +1 (or +2 for Bow Knight) on all difficulty levels, since those are class skills. What Maddening adds are class-linked equippable skills, such as Poison Strike on Archers.

Definitely, part of what hurts Javelins is the player-phase orientation of 3H. Another factor is that, in previous games, Javelins (and stronger variants) were your lance unit's only option for attacking at range. With how 3H does weapons, however, they're forced to compete with statistically-superior Bows on the same unit types.

1 hour ago, Barren said:

Those are good points @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate and @Jotari. I forgot that iron bows in general hit way harder than hand axes and javelins in this game. Even before they forge. Plus isn’t Iron Bows an E rank weapon as well? If so then they really outclass those weapons by a lot more.

Yep - as an E rank weapon, the Iron Bow is usable by any unit in any class. The only real reason to use Javelins before getting Swordbreaker or class-based Lancefaire is just to gain Lance rank faster. On a class like Cavalier or Pegasus Knight, an Iron Bow is just better than a Javelin.

@Jotari that's not correct, Iron and Training Weapons are all E rank. I've spent enough time using an Iron Bow with E+ on Teach to know. The Steel Bow is D-rank, however, as is the Mini Bow.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Updated response.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

In fact, bow-specialist classes have Bowrange +1 (or +2 for Bow Knight) on all difficulty levels, since those are class skills. What Maddening adds are class-linked equippable skills, such as Poison Strike on Archers.

Definitely, part of what hurts Javelins is the player-phase orientation of 3H. Another factor is that, in previous games, Javelins (and stronger variants) were your lance unit's only option for attacking at range. With how 3H does weapons, however, they're forced to compete with statistically-superior Bows on the same unit types.

Oh really? Huh, thought they only had the extra range on maddening. Guess I was confusing it with poison strike. Makes sense though since I basically only ever play on maddening since its release.

8 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 

@Jotari that's not correct, Iron and Training Weapons are all E rank. I've spent enough time using an Iron Bow with E+ on Teach to know. The Steel Bow is D-rank, however, as is the Mini Bow.

Ah, I am incorrect once more. At least I can still be happy that my sentiment is correct.

[Dark Holy Elf]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Honestly, ranged physical weapons that aren't bows just aren't worth it in this game. Like, compare the Javelin+ (3 Might, 80 Hit, 8 Weight) to the Iron Bow+ (7 Might, 95 Hit, 5 Weight). Even with a class-based Lancefaire, Lance Prowess Lv. 5, and no Bow Prowess, the two weapons tie in Hit rate, and the Javelin+ only has 1 point of damage over the Iron Bow+ (which, in turn, has 3 points of weight under its competitor). And while no Lance-based combat arts can be used at range, the Iron Bow can be used with Curved Shot for extra hit and/or range. The Javelin can have better hit with Swordbreaker, granted, but that's situational. It can also counter at melee range, but so can Bows (with Close Counter) - plus, if your lance unit is taking a direct hit, they'd rather be wielding a higher-Might and/or lowe-Weight lance. Finally, the Iron Bow has a decisive damage advantage over enemy fliers.

So even in a lance-oriented build, the Iron Bow+ is at least competetive with the Javelin+. The Hand Axe+ fares somewhat better in Might, but worse in Hit and Weight. Same story for higher-rank throwing weapons. Don't get me wrong, I still use these weapons on relevant builds, but I'd probably be better off replacing them with bows.

That's what I've been doing with Dancer!Marianne on my latest playthrough. Providing a combat boost, just by being within 3 steps of an enemy, is really cool.

Good summary of the problems the javelin faces. Hand Axe+ is a little better off due to might (with Axefaire, it has a 3 mt advantage on the Iron Bow+, and only 5 less hit if you have Axe Prowess but not Bow Prowess), and of course both weapons have the advantage that you can still counter with them at range 1 (albeit not very well) so you can use them to bait out certain enemy mages without needing Retribution support. But even then their value kinda lies in assuming you don't invest in bows; if you actually are willing to train your rank up a bit and set Bow Prowess and Curved Shot, you get even more options like the Mini Bow and Steel Bow+ (which surpasses the javelin and hand axe for mt even with -faire skills working against it) and there's no contest.

For Marianne, it's worth mentioning that even if you don't have a spare Levin Sword+, she can do the same thing with Thoron... definitely cool. And of course Dancer Dorothea/Hilda with their siege tomes are just amazing support units. Constance can do this too although her support list is more narrow (the other siege tome users sadly can not be dancers, RIP Manuela).

[LoneRecon400]

Fun fact: Bows can counter at one range without Close Counter if the unit has the Retribution gambit applied.

There’s really not a case for 1-2 weapons in this game at all.

Edited July 9, 2021 by LoneRecon400

[vanguard333]

I'd say that it's worth it, though the extent to which it is worth it depends on the weapon that's being forged. For instance, forge any of the magic weapons and they go from having 1-2 range to having 1-3 range, which is very useful. The rapier+ is also a massive improvement over the standard rapier.

I like giving both the levin sword+ and the rapier+ to my Byleth, and when combined with him normally learning both grounder and bane of monsters, it means he can effectively use both physical and magic attacks while also being able to do effective damage to everything that can take effective damage, be it cavalry, armor, flying, monster, or dragon.

[Galap]

It's worth it in the sense that your limiting factor for a lot of the ores is that you can only have 99 of them at a time, and any more you get won't increase your total..

 

You just hands down have more money than god in this game so resources like this just aren't going to be an issue.

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/9/2021 at 1:15 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Fun fact: Bows can counter at one range without Close Counter if the unit has the Retribution gambit applied.

There’s really not a case for 1-2 weapons in this game at all.

Agreed, This game has to be the lowest point for throwing weapons.

Anyway, to the OP, it's generally worth it, though I personally wait to forge until the weapon's durability is below half, as improving a weapon to the + version also beings it back to full durability.

[Barren]

What also makes it interesting that even though we can all agree that classes with Swordfaire tend to be at best fine at worst underwhelming. Swords has the highest critical hit chances out of anything in this game. Wo Dao and Cursed Ashiya Sword are the top two.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Barren said:

What also makes it interesting that even though we can all agree that classes with Swordfaire tend to be at best fine at worst underwhelming. Swords has the highest critical hit chances out of anything in this game. Wo Dao and Cursed Ashiya Sword are the top two.

Assassin has swordfaire and that's considered a pretty good class as far as I know.