Best Master Class FETH

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

There's potential here. Maybe turn Wyvern Lord into a hybrid flying/armor class (say A Axes, B Flight, B Armor), while also giving it a big jump from Wyvern Rider in Defense (say, +2 into +6), and HP (+2 to +5), albeit at a speed cost (+0 to -2)? And replace Avoid +10 with Weight -5, to mimic Fortress Knight (and keep Shields an attractive option). That said, I'd want to avoid getting to a place where Falcon Knight is strictly better than Wyvern Lord on female units.

I dunno - that'd probably make it pretty much a class to avoid because it's impractical to qualify for in the same sense that Great Knight is. The difference is that no one has boons in both flying and heavy armour, meaning it'd be even worse off.

[salinea]

39 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The thing is, War Cleric would be better off with full magic uses, even without the Heal skill. Then it would have 10 casts of Heal either way (more than enough for almost any map), while possessing respectable amounts of other Faith spells. While Heal on Priest isn't bad, per se, I'd toss it to upgrade Healing +5 to Healing +10 in a heartbeat.

As for Fire on Mage, I find it more justifiable because A) not all magic users get Fire as of C Reason, so it gives them more variety; B) for those that do, 20 Fire casts is less overkill than 20 Heals (since you can double with Fire, or use it multiple times on enemy phase); and C) it provides an opening for dark magic specialists to nonetheless compete in the "black magic" tournaments.

I think the main issue is that you just don't have that much use out of Heal on a frontliner in a game where your dedicated healer is going to have Physic and you'll probably also have a dedicated mage (if not more) with Heal on top of that who may also have Physic. You just aren't that much starved for healing, especially in a class you get at level 20.

So either the free tome should have been Physic or another more useful Faith spell, or it should have been something else (like you say Healing +5/+10 or maybe not cutting the magic uses by two)

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - that'd probably make it pretty much a class to avoid because it's impractical to qualify for in the same sense that Great Knight is. The difference is that no one has boons in both flying and heavy armour, meaning it'd be even worse off.

I wouldn't say the proposed ranks are prohibitively high. Suppose you get a unit into either Fortress Knight or Wyvern Rider. With normal play in either class, you're likely to get them to A Axes and B Armor/Flight by level 30. In which case, all you need is C in Flight/Armor to have a good shot at certifying - which you can train in the background while in Advanced tier. A nuisance for those with a bane, perhaps, but not insurmountable.

2 hours ago, salinea said:

I think the main issue is that you just don't have that much use out of Heal on a frontliner in a game where your dedicated healer is going to have Physic and you'll probably also have a dedicated mage (if not more) with Heal on top of that who may also have Physic. You just aren't that much starved for healing, especially in a class you get at level 20.

So either the free tome should have been Physic or another more useful Faith spell, or it should have been something else (like you say Healing +5/+10 or maybe not cutting the magic uses by two)

I think we agree, then, that Heal isn't a good skill for War Monk? My own preference would be to forgo it, give the class full magic uses, and preferably a Healing +10 (or +5 if that's stepping on Bishop). I'm not really into Physic as a class skill, if only because it undermines the niche possessed by those units who learn Physic naturally (which is hardly a short list).

[salinea]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I think we agree, then, that Heal isn't a good skill for War Monk? My own preference would be to forgo it, give the class full magic uses, and preferably a Healing +10 (or +5 if that's stepping on Bishop). I'm not really into Physic as a class skill, if only because it undermines the niche possessed by those units who learn Physic naturally (which is hardly a short list).

Sure. I was just trying to figure out why they designed it like that, what is it that they were trying to do.

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - that'd probably make it pretty much a class to avoid because it's impractical to qualify for in the same sense that Great Knight is. The difference is that no one has boons in both flying and heavy armour, meaning it'd be even worse off.

You're definitely overestimating the difficulty. Shanty Pete's suggestion was A / B / B, which is dramatically easier to qualify for than Great Knight (A / B+ / B+). In fact, it's easier than Wyvern Lord itself (A / A / C, since A+C is more than B+B for skill exp required). In addition, while nobody has all three skill reqs, many units have two out of three while being neutral in the third (off the top of my head: Edelgard, Petra, Ferdinand with BT, Raphael, Hilda with BT, Claude with BT). In fact, most units I make wyvern lords I frequently get to C in armour anyway (for Weight-3 and Armour/Fortress Knight certification def boosts), and keeping at it for B for Smite isn't a terrible idea, which makes this class even easier for them to qualify for, since now I don't need to worry about hitting C lances.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You're definitely overestimating the difficulty. Shanty Pete's suggestion was A / B / B, which is dramatically easier to qualify for than Great Knight (A / B+ / B+). In fact, it's easier than Wyvern Lord itself (A / A / C, since A+C is more than B+B for skill exp required). In addition, while nobody has all three skill reqs, many units have two out of three while being neutral in the third (off the top of my head: Edelgard, Petra, Ferdinand with BT, Raphael, Hilda with BT, Claude with BT). In fact, most units I make wyvern lords I frequently get to C in armour anyway (for Weight-3 and Armour/Fortress Knight certification def boosts), and keeping at it for B for Smite isn't a terrible idea, which makes this class even easier for them to qualify for, since now I don't need to worry about hitting C lances.

Good points - Cyril and Gilbert are in that pool as well. Great Knight's requirements are obnoxious, but honestly any class that demands B+ or higher in three areas (none of which are Authority) was gonna be a bad time. It'd be much more tolerable with A/B/B.

And as said, there are rewards to training Armor outside of being an Armor. Even something as simple as Armor Knight certification (for 12 base defense) includes D-rank (E+ if you're feeling daring).

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Good points - Cyril and Gilbert are in that pool as well. Great Knight's requirements are obnoxious, but honestly any class that demands B+ or higher in three areas (none of which are Authority) was gonna be a bad time. It'd be much more tolerable with A/B/B.

And as said, there are rewards to training Armor outside of being an Armor. Even something as simple as Armor Knight certification (for 12 base defense) includes D-rank (E+ if you're feeling daring).

Would you believe I had Cyril and Seteth on that list, cut them to move them to the end of it, and forgot to hit paste? I did forget Gilbert though.

[91024893u2]

On 7/10/2021 at 11:59 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The title asks a different question than the header. If I were simply answering "best Master class", I would've said Wyvern Lord. Flying is very powerful in 3H, and WL receives serious boosts to all relevant offensive stats. 

For "favorite Master class", though, I actually answered Dark Knight (because I want to start a fight). Seriously, though, I like the feel of zapping foes with spells at a distance, then cantoing away. And getting Dark Tomefaire (seriously, why does Dark Bishop not get this?). And stylistically, the spiky black armor is over-the-top, but in a fun way - the kind that leaves me with absolutely no regrets about making Mercedes don it.

Oops. That was meant to say "Favorite Master Class". Sorry!

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/12/2021 at 7:34 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

You're definitely overestimating the difficulty. Shanty Pete's suggestion was A / B / B, which is dramatically easier to qualify for than Great Knight (A / B+ / B+). In fact, it's easier than Wyvern Lord itself (A / A / C, since A+C is more than B+B for skill exp required). In addition, while nobody has all three skill reqs, many units have two out of three while being neutral in the third (off the top of my head: Edelgard, Petra, Ferdinand with BT, Raphael, Hilda with BT, Claude with BT). In fact, most units I make wyvern lords I frequently get to C in armour anyway (for Weight-3 and Armour/Fortress Knight certification def boosts), and keeping at it for B for Smite isn't a terrible idea, which makes this class even easier for them to qualify for, since now I don't need to worry about hitting C lances.

I dunno about you, but I'm not exactly fond of needing to invest in two non-weapon skills to get into a class... especially when one of those is heavy armour, which I consider investing in borderline worthless on most characters. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno about you, but I'm not exactly fond of needing to invest in two non-weapon skills to get into a class... especially when one of those is heavy armour, which I consider investing in borderline worthless on most characters. 

Why is two non-weapon skills worse than one unused weapon and one non-weapon skill? Elf already pointed out that A Flight plus C Lances requires more skill exp than B Flight plus B Armor. Along with a swath of "borderline worthless" things that come from Armor investment (early 12 defense, Weight -3, and Smite). Training in Lances gives combat arts and higher Prowess, sure - but on those units where I'm all-in with Axes, this won't be of any material benefit, aside from the certification. 

Would it be harder for some units to certify, sure (Seteth comes to mind, as do out-of-house Sylvain and Ferdinand). Would it be easier for some units (i.e. Gilbert, Raphael, Edelgard), also yes. My intent was to construct a Master class that offers something other than "Wyvern Rider, but better", while also being less broken and centralizing than vanilla Wyvern Lord. In trying to create an "Armored Flier", I don't think it's asking too much that the unit have at least some basis in Armor and Flight.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Why is two non-weapon skills worse than one unused weapon and one non-weapon skill? Elf already pointed out that A Flight plus C Lances requires more skill exp than B Flight plus B Armor. Along with a swath of "borderline worthless" things that come from Armor investment (early 12 defense, Weight -3, and Smite). Training in Lances gives combat arts and higher Prowess, sure - but on those units where I'm all-in with Axes, this won't be of any material benefit, aside from the certification. 

Would it be harder for some units to certify, sure (Seteth comes to mind, as do out-of-house Sylvain and Ferdinand). Would it be easier for some units (i.e. Gilbert, Raphael, Edelgard), also yes. My intent was to construct a Master class that offers something other than "Wyvern Rider, but better", while also being less broken and centralizing than vanilla Wyvern Lord. In trying to create an "Armored Flier", I don't think it's asking too much that the unit have at least some basis in Armor and Flight.

You succeeded at that, to your credit... but unfortunately, you also succeeded at making it impractical to qualify for in the sense that Great Knight is, and I consider that to far and away eclipse whatever you were planning to accomplish. Anyway, I don't see the value in most of what armor investment gives me (the best I can say about it is that it gives me 12 defense at level 10 and that Hilda and Ferdinand get a good skill from their budding talent); anyway, most units I'd invest in armor for are those that are already inclined to go that route anyhow. All the hype Weight -3 gets only rings hollow when Speed +2 is almost as effective (and always works, as opposed to only being effective with heavy weapons; it doesn't help that most of the characters that have an easy time getting it are also slow to the point that it does nothing for them in practice), and Smite at B sounds like waaaaaay too much work for something I'd have issues justifying devoting one of my three combat art slots to...

Edited July 15, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Anathaco]

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

You succeeded at that, to your credit... but unfortunately, you also succeeded at making it impractical to qualify for in the sense that Great Knight is, and I consider that to far and away eclipse whatever you were planning to accomplish. Anyway, I don't see the value in most of what armor investment gives me (the best I can say about it is that it gives me 12 defense at level 10 and that Hilda and Ferdinand get a good skill from their budding talent); anyway, most units I'd invest in armor for are those that are already inclined to go that route anyhow. All the hype Weight -3 gets only rings hollow when Speed +2 is almost as effective (and always works, as opposed to only being effective with heavy weapons; it doesn't help that most of the characters that have an easy time getting it are also slow to the point that it does nothing for them in practice), and Smite at B sounds like waaaaaay too much work for something I'd have issues justifying devoting one of my three combat art slots to...

The difference is that the lower ranks make it easier to just train either armour or flying on the side. The thing with Great Knight is that the required ranks are B+ axes, A armour and B+ riding, not A axes, B+ armour/riding (which is what I keep thinking it is and having to correct myself). Meaning you need to train one non-weapon rank to A and another to B+. So if the issue is that training non-weapon ranks specifically is harder, Great Knight is leagues ahead of Flying Fortress (this is what I am calling this now. Yes I know it’s a dumb name) in terms of pure difficulty to reach. Someone like Ferdinand could be made into a wyvern throughout the game (which considering FF is meant to replace wyvern lord it probably would be the best class path), while training armour on the side. If you want to do as little as possible you can stop at C and still have a chance to pass the exam. You don’t ever have to touch an armoured class to reach that, just like you don’t ever have to touch a lance to reach the C rank required for classes like Wyvern Lord or Bow Knight. That rank can come purely from tutoring. If you wanted to reach B for the guaranteed pass, you could do that as well, just by tutoring axes and swapping between flying and armour as you see fit. That would be easily achievable by level 30, leaving plenty of time even to grab other skills if you wanted, like bows for hit + 20 or authority.

No, it probably wouldn’t be the easiest class to get into, but just because it needs two movement ranks doesn’t make it nearly as annoying as Great Knight. Great Knight is a beast all its own.

Personally I’m all for a class like FF, if for no other reason than it would give fliers access to guard adjutants. Would probably suck to have to train someone all the way to level 30 just for that, but still.

 

 

Anyway, as for the poll itself I voted for Great Knight as my favourite class. Yes I did just shit on it a lot. Yes I still love it it’s just so goofy.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

24 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Flying Fortress (this is what I am calling this now. Yes I know it’s a dumb name)

I like this one. It's pretty much perfect for the class concept. And it matches being a sidegrade of Fortress Knight.

24 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

The thing with Great Knight is that the required ranks are B+ axes, A armour and B+ riding, not A axes, B+ armour/riding (which is what I keep thinking it is and having to correct myself). Meaning you need to train one non-weapon rank to A and another to B+.

Yep - Great Knight's ranks are demanding in general (heh). Kind of wild that B+/A/B+ was allowed, when Mortal Savant is just A/B+, and several classes are C/B+/A. Compared to those, A/B/B should be totally reasonable.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

You succeeded at that, to your credit... but unfortunately, you also succeeded at making it impractical to qualify for in the sense that Great Knight is, and I consider that to far and away eclipse whatever you were planning to accomplish. Anyway, I don't see the value in most of what armor investment gives me (the best I can say about it is that it gives me 12 defense at level 10 and that Hilda and Ferdinand get a good skill from their budding talent); anyway, most units I'd invest in armor for are those that are already inclined to go that route anyhow. All the hype Weight -3 gets only rings hollow when Speed +2 is almost as effective (and always works, as opposed to only being effective with heavy weapons; it doesn't help that most of the characters that have an easy time getting it are also slow to the point that it does nothing for them in practice), and Smite at B sounds like waaaaaay too much work for something I'd have issues justifying devoting one of my three combat art slots to...

If you're already using a "Repositional" slot, then Smite is a good one - it's a strictly better Shove. Plenty of combat arts can deal more damage, but few can move an ally by two spaces at a time. As for Weight -3, thinking of it as a substitute for Speed +2 is something of a mistake. You get them in totally different ways - Weight -3 comes from skill ranks, while Speed +2 needs class mastery. If I chose to master a different Beginner class (say Fighter for Strength +2), then going back for Myrmidon will take precious time that I could be working on, say, Brigand. That said, if I do go for both Speed +2 and Weight -3, the skills can actually synergize fairly well. If I'm going for a "speedster" build (say on Petra, or Felix), having both can help to maintain doubling thresholds, even with heavier weapons in hands.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Clarification.

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/10/2021 at 5:06 PM, Barren said:

Gremory is a great one for sure. Defiant Magic as well as the class abilities has it’s uses. My favorite is War Master not just from a design standpoint but Quick Riposte is a great ability. It’s a shame that you would have to wait a long time to get, but IMO it’s worth it.

I don't think it's about Defiant Magic at all; I find the Defiant abilities as a whole impractical to use simply because 25% or less is too low to ask. If I want an ability that needs low HP to work, the risk cannot eclipse the reward. Incidentally, I think that for a game with 4 class tiers, the devs coulda done a better job with mastery abilities...

[Barren]

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't think it's about Defiant Magic at all; I find the Defiant abilities as a whole impractical to use simply because 25% or less is too low to ask. If I want an ability that needs low HP to work, the risk cannot eclipse the reward. Incidentally, I think that for a game with 4 class tiers, the devs coulda done a better job with mastery abilities...

While I can respect that, I have actually gone out of my way to get defiant crit Sylvain to work while he’s in his Wyvern Lord class. The results are 50/50 for me but that is just because I managed to get his damage down to just enough health when fighting one of the warlock enemies that has Ragnarok.

 

As far as HP requirements I can see it getting a minor change like 33% or less rather than 25%. But yea, with the defiant abilities rather anyone gets any results out of them or not, their mileage may vary.

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:13 AM, Barren said:

While I can respect that, I have actually gone out of my way to get defiant crit Sylvain to work while he’s in his Wyvern Lord class. The results are 50/50 for me but that is just because I managed to get his damage down to just enough health when fighting one of the warlock enemies that has Ragnarok.

 

As far as HP requirements I can see it getting a minor change like 33% or less rather than 25%. But yea, with the defiant abilities rather anyone gets any results out of them or not, their mileage may vary.

It's not just the low HP requirement - it's also that by the time they're relevant (note that with the exception of Defiant Strength, all of them are tied to Master classes), I would find myself very hard-pressed to slot them in my ability lineup and find them to be an improvement over whatever I got rid of for them. 

[Anathaco]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It's not just the low HP requirement - it's also that by the time they're relevant (note that with the exception of Defiant Strength, all of them are tied to Master classes), I would find myself very hard-pressed to slot them in my ability lineup and find them to be an improvement over whatever I got rid of for them. 

Out of curiosity what abilities do you have equipped by that point in the game? I’d think you’d want a prowess skill of your choice, death/fiendish blow, hit +20, and either authority prowess, darting/uncanny blow (depending if you went out of your way way for it) or maybe a breaker skill of your choice or a stat boosting skill? 
 

If you wanted to run Defiant Strength/Magic with a vantage or even a vantage/wrath build you could swap them for death/fiendish/any blow skill with little consequences (and I think the synergy with stuff like vantage and wrath is mainly what they’re useful for). Same for Defiant Avoid, since it’s mainly used for enemy phase shenanigans, but it’s also competing with alert stance and potentially wrath/battalion wrath. Still probably fairly easy to slot in though.
 

Defiant Crit confuses me even more than defiant avoid, I’m not even sure what kind of set up you’d use with it.

The other defiants do seem pretty useless so yeah, most abilities would probably be a better use of a slot in their case.

[Barren]

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Defiant Crit confuses me even more than defiant avoid, I’m not even sure what kind of set up you’d use with it.

The other defiants do seem pretty useless so yeah, most abilities would probably be a better use of a slot in their case.

Defiant Crit can stack with Vantage + Wrath. This basically grants you 100% (or close enough) chance to crit. You can slap on Chalice of Beginnings or Retribution to basically run rampant on enemy phase. The only things that can beat any kind of vantage set are gambits, ballistas and magic orbs. Monsters can also be immune to critical hits unless you’re attacking a spot where it’s barrier is down.

[lenticular]

3 hours ago, Barren said:

Defiant Crit can stack with Vantage + Wrath. This basically grants you 100% (or close enough) chance to crit. You can slap on Chalice of Beginnings or Retribution to basically run rampant on enemy phase. The only things that can beat any kind of vantage set are gambits, ballistas and magic orbs. Monsters can also be immune to critical hits unless you’re attacking a spot where it’s barrier is down.

You can use it with Vantage/Wrath, but there are other reliable ways to get to above 100% crit chance. There are killer weapons, crit rings, crit boosting battalions, weapon crit +10 skills, and so on. If you're runnign a Vantage/Wrath build, you should probably have set all of these up already so you can bring the build online much sooner. And sure, if you get Defiant Crit then it might let you swap some of those out for something else, but that's realistically only going to be a marginal improvement over what you already had. Marginal improvements that you only get in the very late game (if at all) aren't something that I'm ever going to get excited about.

[Anathaco]

5 hours ago, Barren said:

Defiant Crit can stack with Vantage + Wrath. This basically grants you 100% (or close enough) chance to crit. You can slap on Chalice of Beginnings or Retribution to basically run rampant on enemy phase. The only things that can beat any kind of vantage set are gambits, ballistas and magic orbs. Monsters can also be immune to critical hits unless you’re attacking a spot where it’s barrier is down.

Ah, I see. I wasn’t sure if people used defiant crit for that or battalion wrath (for the people who get it of course).

I was also thinking since the fact it works on player phase distinguishes it from wrath, that people would use it for player stuff as well. So maybe a set like Prowess, Death Blow, Hit + 20, defiant strength, defiant crit?

[LoneRecon400]

Defiant Crit is way better than a Marginal Improvement. It allows for 100% Crit Rates on Player Phase without having to go into War Master, lessens the need for having a good flight battalion, doesn't require 75-38 battles as footlocked 5 mov class or adjutant, has good synegry  with dodgetanking setups, and is not limited to a select few units like Battalion Wrath while also not requiring micromanaging battalion durability.  

It's honestly one of the best skills in the game, only really hampered by it's availability and set up. But when set up to it's fullest, it's hard to argue against the results.

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Defiant Crit is way better than a Marginal Improvement. It allows for 100% Crit Rates on Player Phase without having to go into War Master, lessens the need for having a good flight battalion, doesn't require 75-38 battles as footlocked 5 mov class or adjutant, has good synegry  with dodgetanking setups, and is not limited to a select few units like Battalion Wrath while also not requiring micromanaging battalion durability.  

It's honestly one of the best skills in the game, only really hampered by it's availability and set up. But when set up to it's fullest, it's hard to argue against the results.

Those screenshots are all well and good, but all of that could just as well be achieved with Wrath instead of Defiant Crit. Sure, you don't get your guaranteed crit on player phase if you're using Wrath, but you also don't need it. Just go and stand near the enemy and let them attack you instead. If you're running an enemy-phase build (either with vantage or a dodge tank) then there's little difference between the two.

Player phase builds are possible with Defiant Crit, of course, but there are other glass cannon builds that are a lot easier and quicker to set up (Vengeance builds, for instance, or Magic Bow Hunter's Volley).

Ultimately, it comes down to this: are you playing NG+ or are you willing to do a lot of grinding? If yes to either, then Defiant Crit might be worth looking into. If not then it really isn't. At least, I don't think it is. The benefits it offers aren't enough to justify how awkward it is to pick it up.

 

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Out of curiosity what abilities do you have equipped by that point in the game? I’d think you’d want a prowess skill of your choice, death/fiendish blow, hit +20, and either authority prowess, darting/uncanny blow (depending if you went out of your way way for it) or maybe a breaker skill of your choice or a stat boosting skill? 
 

If you wanted to run Defiant Strength/Magic with a vantage or even a vantage/wrath build you could swap them for death/fiendish/any blow skill with little consequences (and I think the synergy with stuff like vantage and wrath is mainly what they’re useful for). Same for Defiant Avoid, since it’s mainly used for enemy phase shenanigans, but it’s also competing with alert stance and potentially wrath/battalion wrath. Still probably fairly easy to slot in though.
 

Defiant Crit confuses me even more than defiant avoid, I’m not even sure what kind of set up you’d use with it.

The other defiants do seem pretty useless so yeah, most abilities would probably be a better use of a slot in their case.

For mages, it's generally Reason/Faith/Hp+5/Mag+2/filler (though this is largely dependent on whither they were in my initial house or not). Physical units are more varied in terms of setups. 

With regard to that, Vantage/Wrath isn't that good in this game, and adding Defiant abilities wouldn't really help, since if they're low enough for the Defiant abilities to be active, they're likely low enough to get finished off by a gambit as well. Also, this is impractical as hell, considering that you have to master Mercenary, Warrior, and a master class AT LEAST. Especially Defiant Magic, seeing as this requires sword, axe, and magic training, which is an unreasonable ask... and this is all for something that is most likely only going to be a marginal improvement over what I already had, if it is one at all. Giving up an ability slot for a skill that does nothing unless I'm at 1/4 HP or less sounds a lot like I'd be shooting myself in the foot.

[LoneRecon400]

But what if a unit isn't running a Enemy Phase Setup? Not all threats can be taken out on Enemy Phase. Some units have to be there to care take of enemies who have gambits or Siege Equipment as well monsters. Defiant Crit giving a 100% Crit rate on Player phase can make huge difference in what unit need to oneshot enemies.

Vengeance is locked three units, one of which is route locked.  And magical Hunter's Volley is dependent on a resource that you don't even get a consistent supply of until Chapter 16. Defiant Crit is ubiquitous and doesn't even require a unit to have the tools that every unit typically uses such as Deathblow or good battalions to one shot bulky enemies.

I also don't understand how mastering Wyvern Lord is a inconvenience but Warrior isn't. You telling me that 38 battles as a footlocked 5 mov class or as a adjutant is doable but 50 battles in the best offensive class isn't?

[Anathaco]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

For mages, it's generally Reason/Faith/Hp+5/Mag+2/filler (though this is largely dependent on whither they were in my initial house or not). Physical units are more varied in terms of setups. 

With regard to that, Vantage/Wrath isn't that good in this game, and adding Defiant abilities wouldn't really help, since if they're low enough for the Defiant abilities to be active, they're likely low enough to get finished off by a gambit as well. Also, this is impractical as hell, considering that you have to master Mercenary, Warrior, and a master class AT LEAST. Especially Defiant Magic, seeing as this requires sword, axe, and magic training, which is an unreasonable ask... and this is all for something that is most likely only going to be a marginal improvement over what I already had, if it is one at all. Giving up an ability slot for a skill that does nothing unless I'm at 1/4 HP or less sounds a lot like I'd be shooting myself in the foot.

Well you wouldn’t need to master all that unless you were doing a vantage wrath mage or if you were using defiant crit. If you were using defiant avoid you’d need to master falcon knight, but vantage wouldn’t be helpful (and would even defeat the purpose of the build) and wrath is more a nice option than absolutely needed. Hero isn’t a master class so defiant strength comes quicker than the other defiants, though you will need to master two advanced classes for the full build. A bit of an effort, but certainly doable in a reasonable time frame. Hell, if you want you can even end in hero for the in built vantage (both reducing the work needed to complete the build and opening up an extra ability slot for defiant strength). That being said, I’ve only ever used defiant strength on Balthus just for stacking with his personal. 

As for defiant magic, wrath/vantage would be a pain, but even regular vantage can work well too- if you’ve seen Zoran’s VW Maddening run he used Vantage Lysithea to pretty great effect (and as a side note ran two vantage/wrath units as well). You wouldn’t need to train axes at all. Just reaching C swords gets you to mercenary for vantage, and the two mages with the highest magic (Lysithea and Constance) have sword boons so it’s a relatively simple task.

With regards to Vantage Wrath, the biggest issue with it is gambits, true, but in my experience it’s pretty easy to get a lot of charm and reduce the odds of getting hit. Tea parties net each character two points of charm per month and it isn’t a massive deal to do.

Anyway, I generally agree that they could have done better for master class masteries than just “quick slap a defiant on them that vaguely matches their best stat”. That being said even despite the 25% health requirement I think it’s pretty easy to get units that low, between guard adjutants, blessing, poison strike archers, etc. And while they won’t be winning any awards for “best abilities in the game” any time soon I think they do their job quite well and have their own niches*

*except defiant res. That one is garbage.