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Best Master Class FETH


Best Master Class FETH  

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  1. 1. What is your favorite master class in Fire Emblem Three Houses?

    • Falcon Knight
    • Wyvern Lord
    • Bow Knight
    • Great Knight
    • Dark Knight
    • Holy Knight
    • Gremory
    • War Master
    • Mortal Savant
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On 8/9/2021 at 3:25 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This is an estimate, but if I've invested properly into the unit... I'd say I'm getting into the class around the start of chapter 15, and achieving mastery sometime in 18. This can vary with the kind of unit and build - I was able to have Ingrid master Wyvern Lord (after Falcon Knight) going into AM Endgame, because, as a dodgetank, she was getting into a lot more battles than most other units. Basically, units who have stuff to do on Enemy Phase will achieve class mastery well before those who are just acting on Player Phase.

That makes sense. I know that I've put people as adjutants to fortress knights when I want them to gain some quick class xp. However, for my personal play style, if I'm using a dedicated dodge tank (or any other build that can effectively solo the game), then as soon as I've reached that point then I'll rush through the rest of the game. I generally find the "I've already won but the game doesn't realise it yet" phase of games to be pretty boring, so I don't usually do my due diligence on the last few maps if I know I can easily solo them without thinking. That's a playstyle thing, though, and I know that other people prefer to get a chance to see their overpowered builds in action as much as possible, or to really squeeze out as much as possible to make them even stronger. Not my thing, but I wouldn't want to deprive anyone else of their epic victory laps.

On 8/9/2021 at 3:25 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for Aux battles, I'd usually do one or two "battle weekends" per month. Which is a mix of paralogues, quests, and proper Aux battles. Assuming A+ Professor Rank, let's estimate three Aux battles per month. I dunno if that's considered excessive grinding, but maybe so.

I don't know that I'd consider it excessive grinding, but it's certainly more than I do.

On the subject of tea time, I want to add that I would personally never use a build that required dozens of tea times simply because I don't enjoy tea time. At all. I once made Ignatz my dancer and had tea with him two or three times to make sure he met the charm requirement, and even that much was miserable for me. Now, obviously, not everyone is going to have the same disdain for tea parties that I do and people who enjoy them should absolutely feel free to turn Ignatz into his suave and debonair best self, but I do think that any build that requires extensive engagement with otherwise completely optional parts of the game should come with a fairly big asterisk.

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10 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Can I just say I that people really underestimate how plentiful Activity points are outside the earlygame? 

You can easily B+ Rank Professor ranking by Chapter 7 without doing even any fishing or tournaments. That’s 8 Activity Points and 6 Lecture points. Even with 3 meals and cooking, that’s still 4 activity points left over. It’s more than plenty to afford 1 Tea Party a week.

Ok yeah this saves me from checking haha. Thanks.

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

CF/VW/SS Players: "My goodness, what an idea! Why didn't I think of that?"

Route availability (Not Dimitri)

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So you're spending zero points on Cooking, and the stat boosts it offers? How about the Tournament, which gives quite a bit of Professor Rank? Perhaps the biggest of all you're missing is Faculty Training. Any Professor build outside of the basic Myrmidon -> Thief/Mercenary -> Assassin/Hero/Swordmaster/Enlightened One really won't be possible. Not to mention, missing out on building ranks for out-of-house recruitments.

Activity Points are always a trade-off, and if you're consistently committing a point to one activity (say, tea with Ignatz), that's one less point that can be targeted toward anything else. And this is before engaging with the unreliability of tea time - your target unit might turn down your offer, and even if you get a great teatime, the Charm boost isn't guaranteed. 

Ok so I made two errors with my above statement: a) I kind of completely forgot to factor in how many lecture points you’d have at that rank, and b) I forgot that even at max you can’t tutor ten people a week regardless, so it’ll require less meals overall. That being said, since almost nobody uses skill ranks to recruit students nowadays, unless it’s Caspar or Ferdinand, I probably should account for an extra meal used mainly for support building. So three free points a week. The first week of the month you can do the tournament, then either split between tea and training, or just go full training, and wait until the week after to do tea time, when you have three free points, since the tournament rewards have been claimed (unless you actually get professor xp after every time you clear the tournament, which in that case fair). And assuming you battle a week every month, you’ll either have one week to have tea while also getting two points of training in, or two weeks of that. If, like you mentioned in another post you battle every second week, then yeah it’ll be harder to fit in but if you really wanted you could probably fit in at least one tea party a month. I think, at least.

As for the chance to be rejected from tea time, yeah as far as I know it can’t be reduced. It can be savescummed if you want, though, which is a whole other can of worms, but yeah.

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Let me put it this way then: When is having a tea party ever a better option than any of the following:

  • Tournaments
  • Sharing a meal
  • Cooking
  • Faculty training

Because I have a hell of a lot of trouble deciding that tea parties are a better use of my activity points than any of the above. Even more so early on.

A) if you’ve already done a tournament this month

b) if all your students are motivated and you’ve had a meal with everyone you wanted to for recruitment

c) if you’ve already cooked that week

d) Fair, you can never have too much faculty training, but at the same time… you kinda can. And at the very least the alternative does also benefit Byleth by giving them charm, so it isn’t a complete loss. 
 

Point being, I’m not suggesting AT ALL that people forsake the other important aspects of the monastery to create Ignatz the Chad. Do them first, or else make sure you save the points to do what you need to. But you’re going to have spare points at some point, so you can do tea time then.

On an unrelated note, this discussion has broken my resolve to play something else after my current run, since I kinda want to play a run of the game where I do just make a very shiny, charming Ignatz and see how that affects my Byleth build. So if that happens I guess I can test all the discussion for myself.

 

 

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

On the subject of tea time, I want to add that I would personally never use a build that required dozens of tea times simply because I don't enjoy tea time. At all. I once made Ignatz my dancer and had tea with him two or three times to make sure he met the charm requirement, and even that much was miserable for me. Now, obviously, not everyone is going to have the same disdain for tea parties that I do and people who enjoy them should absolutely feel free to turn Ignatz into his suave and debonair best self, but I do think that any build that requires extensive engagement with otherwise completely optional parts of the game should come with a fairly big asterisk.

Confession, I do also hate tea time. You’re either too lazy to engage with it and you look up a guide, but then that’s work and effort and it sucks, or you try and engage with it and get your teeth kicked in when the character looks all sad and disappointed that you thought that Anna would want to talk about her ambitions (you literally never shut up about money, Anna, how is that not an ambition).
At the same time, I do like messing around with the game, so if I had to to create my next weird build i totally would.

 

 

Since the thread has gone kinda (way) off topic, mastery skills that exist on master classes, which are the topic of this thread: I find it funny that despite defiants being generally considered gimmicky and only really useful on specific builds, they’re still the best master class masteries aside from the obvious quick riposte. Because the alternatives are Warding Blow and Seal Res lmao. Why are they even on Master classes in the first place?

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3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Since the thread has gone kinda (way) off topic, mastery skills that exist on master classes, which are the topic of this thread: I find it funny that despite defiants being generally considered gimmicky and only really useful on specific builds, they’re still the best master class masteries aside from the obvious quick riposte. Because the alternatives are Warding Blow and Seal Res lmao. Why are they even on Master classes in the first place?

Ooh, are we re-railing the train?

Obviously, Warding Blow is there because Mortal Savant would be OP otherwise.

War Master has by far the best Master-tier mastery. Not just Quick Riposte, but also War Master's Strike, making it the only combat art exclusive to a Master class.

It's worth paying heed of the disparities between the Defiant skills. Great Knight's Defiant Defense is among the worst - my defensive tank usually wants to stay at high HP to survive. Holy Knight's Defiant Resistance may be even worse, however, as there are fewer foes dealing magical damage. Bow Knight's Defiant Speed has a theoretical niche, if it allows its user to double (kind of like a pseudo-Hunter's-Volley). Gremory's Defiant Magic could allow for dealing extra damage (perhaps securing new ome-shots), but magical classes don't do much on enemy phase. Wyvern Lord's Defiant Crit can provide a boon to crit-oriented builds, either on player- or enemy-phase. Finally, Falcon Knight's Defiant Avoid is honestly great for dodgetank builds, particularly in tandem with Alert Stance.

Oh, I should probably mention Seal Resistance. Dark Knights being able to soften up certain targets can be nice, but most enemies should be killed in two rounds anyway (excepting monsters and bosses). Seal skills just do more for the enemy than the player. 

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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, are we re-railing the train?

Obviously, Warding Blow is there because Mortal Savant would be OP otherwise.

War Master has by far the best Master-tier mastery. Not just Quick Riposte, but also War Master's Strike, making it the only combat art exclusive to a Master class.

It's worth paying heed of the disparities between the Defiant skills. Great Knight's Defiant Defense is among the worst - my defensive tank usually wants to stay at high HP to survive. Holy Knight's Defiant Resistance may be even worse, however, as there are fewer foes dealing magical damage. Bow Knight's Defiant Speed has a theoretical niche, if it allows its user to double (kind of like a pseudo-Hunter's-Volley). Gremory's Defiant Magic could allow for dealing extra damage (perhaps securing new ome-shots), but magical classes don't do much on enemy phase. Wyvern Lord's Defiant Crit can provide a boon to crit-oriented builds, either on player- or enemy-phase. Finally, Falcon Knight's Defiant Avoid is honestly great for dodgetank builds, particularly in tandem with Alert Stance.

Oh, I should probably mention Seal Resistance. Dark Knights being able to soften up certain targets can be nice, but most enemies should be killed in two rounds anyway (excepting monsters and bosses). Seal skills just do more for the enemy than the player. 

As someone who seriously has used defiant defence in a build before I didn’t do it because it was helpful, I did it because it made the defence number bigger and that was cool. It would be way better if it came earlier- using defiant defence in combination with like Dedue or Balthus’ personals would result in an actually effective low HP tank since most enemies would do nothing to that early on.

Which actually gives me a thought- were some of the master class masteries designed to be good abilities to pick back up in NG+? It would answer the question of seal resistance, for one thing. Granted the fact that most abilities in the game would be handy to have early on probably diminishes that thought, but I wonder if maybe the devs figured, rather than make master class abilities stupid overturned to make up for their late availability, make them decent abilities to use once you go onto the next route.

Anyway, Defiant Speed is an oddity that I’ve just never seen mentioned lol. Probably because the speed, while nice, probably won’t make a massive difference on maddening. 
 

anybody who has ever cursed the fact that males can’t get defiant avoid can now rejoice, just master bow knight for defiant speed which grants 8 avoid

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Defiant Speed can make a difference even on Maddening. In conjunction with Darting Blow and the Speed Ring, that’s +16 Speed. Add bullheads and Dismounting on top of that, that’s +20-22 Speed. That opens up being able to quad with Brave Bows for some speedy units like Leonie, which are usually too heavy to quad with. 

But the issue with that is it drys up Wootz Steel pretty quickly. You could use it as a War Cleric with battalion desperation, but having to manage battalion durability with a defiant skill for a knock off version of Fierce Iron Fist doesn’t sound particularly worth it. 

On the flip side though, it is good for memes.

Edited by LoneRecon400
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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's worth paying heed of the disparities between the Defiant skills. Great Knight's Defiant Defense is among the worst - my defensive tank usually wants to stay at high HP to survive. Holy Knight's Defiant Resistance may be even worse, however, as there are fewer foes dealing magical damage.

Hypothetically speaking, if I wanted to use Defiant Defense, I wouldn't have it as something I kept active at all times, but as a fallback for when I fell to low health. I can imagine circumstances where that might allow the tank to survive an extra hit or two compared to what they would without it. It's still pretty terrible and not at all worth the effort of getting it, but maybe that's enough to make it a 1/10 rather than a 0/10? Defiant Res, on the other hand, is even harder to justify. Maybe against all the mages in the final chapter of AM? But that's a real stretch.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Oh, I should probably mention Seal Resistance. Dark Knights being able to soften up certain targets can be nice, but most enemies should be killed in two rounds anyway (excepting monsters and bosses). Seal skills just do more for the enemy than the player. 

Seal skills also have the downside that if for some reason you do decide that you need them, they can mostly be replicated with either a bow combat art or a dark magic spell. Which, admitedly, you have to think ahead and be sure to recruit the right person for that but if I knew in advance that I was going to want to debuff an enemy's res for some reason (I have no idea why) and my options were "master Dark Knight" or "recruit Hanneman" then I know which I'm going to do.

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The major issue with any Defiant skill (aside from how late they're obtained) is supporting it; you have to (a) get the unit down to low HP and (b) keep them both alive and at low HP thereafter, which tends to involve them not taking any more damage.

Defiant Speed is extra problematic in this regard because builds that double tend to take counters. Not a big deal if you're at full HP, but it is a big deal if you're low. This means your build will either be limited to attacking enemies who don't counter, or can only be used on a dodgetank, or requires an extra layer of support from a skill like (Battalion) Desperation, which is not a good skill so you're now devoting two skill slots to Defiant Speed, at a point in the game where you have loads of good options for skill slots.

In practice I've never used it. If I want a unit who can double as many things as possible, I'm already likely using Prowess, Darting Blow, Weight-3, and Speed+2, and probably Death Blow because that's 24 extra damage if I double with a brave or gauntlet - i.e. I have lots of good skills set already. From my point of view if I find this isn't enough speed, then it's much easier to find extra ways to support their speed (stat boosters, cooking) than it is to master Bow Knight and then suddenly make this unit much harder to use, especially since I'll have to drop one of the above skills (probably Speed+2 or Weight-3) to slot in Defiant Speed.

Probably the best unit for it would be one who already has Defiant Avoid, except that, at least for my playstyle, getting two Master-class masteries is completely impractical.

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39 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Defiant Speed can make a difference even on Maddening. In conjunction with Darting Blow and the Speed Ring, that’s +16 Speed. Add bullheads and Dismounting on top of that, that’s +20-22 Speed. That opens up being able to quad with Brave Bows for some speedy units like Leonie, which are usually too heavy to quad with. 

Alternatively, use it with the Killer Bow. Getting a second hit in means a second chance to crit. And it eats up the buyable Black-Sand Steel, rather than the non-buyable Wootz Steel.

21 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Defiant Speed is extra problematic in this regard because builds that double tend to take counters. Not a big deal if you're at full HP, but it is a big deal if you're low. This means your build will either be limited to attacking enemies who don't counter, or can only be used on a dodgetank, or requires an extra layer of support from a skill like (Battalion) Desperation, which is not a good skill so you're now devoting two skill slots to Defiant Speed, at a point in the game where you have loads of good options for skill slots.

It's worth being mindful that the class that learns it (Bow Knight) is uniquely capable of launching uncounterable standard attacks, just by attacking from 3 or 4 tiles away (granted, opposing Bow Knights can still counter, but that's basically it). It could also have a niche on magic users (since tomes have a ton of range-boosting options), but likely only on NG+ (mastering Bow Knight, then switching over to a magical class, is a tough sell).

31 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Hypothetically speaking, if I wanted to use Defiant Defense, I wouldn't have it as something I kept active at all times, but as a fallback for when I fell to low health. I can imagine circumstances where that might allow the tank to survive an extra hit or two compared to what they would without it. It's still pretty terrible and not at all worth the effort of getting it, but maybe that's enough to make it a 1/10 rather than a 0/10? Defiant Res, on the other hand, is even harder to justify. Maybe against all the mages in the final chapter of AM? But that's a real stretch.

Maybe I am too harsh on Defiant Defense, especially given my love of physical tanks. It certainly synergizes with Balthus' personal skill, for instance. If it can move your tank from taking single-digit damage to taking zero damage, then it might be worth a look.

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5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's worth paying heed of the disparities between the Defiant skills. Great Knight's Defiant Defense is among the worst - my defensive tank usually wants to stay at high HP to survive. Holy Knight's Defiant Resistance may be even worse, however, as there are fewer foes dealing magical damage. Bow Knight's Defiant Speed has a theoretical niche, if it allows its user to double (kind of like a pseudo-Hunter's-Volley). Gremory's Defiant Magic could allow for dealing extra damage (perhaps securing new ome-shots), but magical classes don't do much on enemy phase. Wyvern Lord's Defiant Crit can provide a boon to crit-oriented builds, either on player- or enemy-phase. Finally, Falcon Knight's Defiant Avoid is honestly great for dodgetank builds, particularly in tandem with Alert Stance.

I find Defiant Defense and Defiant Resistance hard to justify using partly because a tank is best kept healthy, and more because if your unit gets to that point, they can't take much more before dying (for that matter, this issue is omnipresent among the Defiant abilities in this game). The same thing was the case with In Extremis (Scarlet's personal skill in FE Fates; one could basically see it as a proto-Defiant Crit); at that point, I'm practically restricted to attacking enemies that can't counter (likely with a ranged weapon, which Fates nerfed those that are not bows, shuriken, or tomes by, among other things, disabling the ability to crit on most of them, and the few that can either have a blind spot, are inaccurate, or are weak, OR are personal weapons that she can't use; of course, the only good weapons with range are the latter. Even then, I don't find crits to be reliable). It's just not worth making the unit much harder to use. Long story short, if I want to use the Defiant abilities, I'd rather just play FEH instead.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Obviously, Warding Blow is there because Mortal Savant would be OP otherwise.

>Mortal Savant and OP in the same sentence
I lol'd.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Oh, I should probably mention Seal Resistance. Dark Knights being able to soften up certain targets can be nice, but most enemies should be killed in two rounds anyway (excepting monsters and bosses). Seal skills just do more for the enemy than the player. 

Seal Resistance is better here than it was in Fates. Which, of course, ain't saying much...

Edited by Shadow Mir
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11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Seal Resistance is better here than it was in Fates. Which, of course, ain't saying much...

Strongly disagree with this.  At least in Fates Seal Resistance exists, it's a level 1 skill on a base class in a game where getting enough relevant skills to fill your slots is far more difficult than Three Houses, so you can use it as "better than an empty slot."  Seal Resistance is god-awful in 3H because it comes so ludicrously late such that even if you wanted to build a mage-heavy team that synergized with Seal Resistance use, you will have to use that team without Seal Resistance for 70% of the game minimum, maybe more like 90% if you don't explicitly grind it, and Dark Knight isn't even the best magic class for safe chipping (that would be Valkyrie, though sure, Caduceus can help).  But it's even worse: debuffs in Fates fall off slowly over time, while debuffs in 3H end the same turn.  You can pretty easily concoct an early-game scenario where Rinkah hits a tanky enemy, then Dragonstone Corrin / Orochi finishes thanks to the -6 Resistance added.  It's very difficult to imagine 3H Seal Resistance earning a slot ever.

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12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Long story short, if I want to use the Defiant abilities, I'd rather just play FEH instead.

FEH defiants are honestly way worse- the 50% hp condition is better on paper, but they have multitudes of other problems like taking up the a slot which is valuable for basically anyone, not activating until the start of the next turn so it’s not like 3H defiants where it can potentially come online mid phase, and being able to be panicked, thus actively punishing the user for having it. In 3H +8 is a pretty massive bonus to a single stat, at least numerically- very few sources can match it and even fewer exceed it. +7 in heroes is alright, but there are plenty of ways to get that or greater, especially in the a slot that it occupies. And also as a visible buff the FEH version can’t stack with other buffs like rallies or hones, while the 3H versions can. 
 

That being said heroes does have brazens which functionally are 3H defiants but they have an 80% or below hp condition instead and affect two stats so they’re way better.

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

>Mortal Savant and OP in the same sentence
I lol'd.

Lysithea cries in corner while super Mario 64 game over song plays.

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48 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

Strongly disagree with this.  At least in Fates Seal Resistance exists, it's a level 1 skill on a base class in a game where getting enough relevant skills to fill your slots is far more difficult than Three Houses, so you can use it as "better than an empty slot."  Seal Resistance is god-awful in 3H because it comes so ludicrously late such that even if you wanted to build a mage-heavy team that synergized with Seal Resistance use, you will have to use that team without Seal Resistance for 70% of the game minimum, maybe more like 90% if you don't explicitly grind it, and Dark Knight isn't even the best magic class for safe chipping (that would be Valkyrie, though sure, Caduceus can help).  But it's even worse: debuffs in Fates fall off slowly over time, while debuffs in 3H end the same turn.  You can pretty easily concoct an early-game scenario where Rinkah hits a tanky enemy, then Dragonstone Corrin / Orochi finishes thanks to the -6 Resistance added.  It's very difficult to imagine 3H Seal Resistance earning a slot ever.

Yeah, this. Even better for the Fates version, Rinkah (or whoever) doesn't even have to hit the enemy; she can bait them, debuff their res (whether or not she even counters), and then you can smash the enemy extra hard next turn, potentially allowing a KO you would otherwise miss. So yeah, the Fates version was very clearly better.

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2 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Strongly disagree with this.  At least in Fates Seal Resistance exists, it's a level 1 skill on a base class in a game where getting enough relevant skills to fill your slots is far more difficult than Three Houses, so you can use it as "better than an empty slot."  Seal Resistance is god-awful in 3H because it comes so ludicrously late such that even if you wanted to build a mage-heavy team that synergized with Seal Resistance use, you will have to use that team without Seal Resistance for 70% of the game minimum, maybe more like 90% if you don't explicitly grind it, and Dark Knight isn't even the best magic class for safe chipping (that would be Valkyrie, though sure, Caduceus can help).  But it's even worse: debuffs in Fates fall off slowly over time, while debuffs in 3H end the same turn.  You can pretty easily concoct an early-game scenario where Rinkah hits a tanky enemy, then Dragonstone Corrin / Orochi finishes thanks to the -6 Resistance added.  It's very difficult to imagine 3H Seal Resistance earning a slot ever.

Ehh, the way I see it, most mages were an absolute effing joke in Fates (I'm not exactly enthused to devote a unit slot to the likes of Orochi or Hayato, let alone Rinkah... Hell, I'd go so far as to think the reason why the armorslayer came so early in Birthright was because they had to make up for the fact that Birthright mages sucked more ass than Little Mac's recovery). You do have a point on Seal Resistance coming late in 3H, though.

2 hours ago, Anathaco said:

FEH defiants are honestly way worse- the 50% hp condition is better on paper, but they have multitudes of other problems like taking up the a slot which is valuable for basically anyone, not activating until the start of the next turn so it’s not like 3H defiants where it can potentially come online mid phase, and being able to be panicked, thus actively punishing the user for having it. In 3H +8 is a pretty massive bonus to a single stat, at least numerically- very few sources can match it and even fewer exceed it. +7 in heroes is alright, but there are plenty of ways to get that or greater, especially in the a slot that it occupies. And also as a visible buff the FEH version can’t stack with other buffs like rallies or hones, while the 3H versions can. 
 

That being said heroes does have brazens which functionally are 3H defiants but they have an 80% or below hp condition instead and affect two stats so they’re way better.

Even with Divine Pulse in the equation, I'd consider lingering around the 25% threshold that Defiants need you to be at for them to be active rather moronic. And by the time they're relevant, I'd find it very hard to add a defiant ability and NOT feel like I'm worse off than I was without it.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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22 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Even with Divine Pulse in the equation, I'd consider lingering around the 25% threshold that Defiants need you to be at for them to be active rather moronic. And by the time they're relevant, I'd find it very hard to add a defiant ability and NOT feel like I'm worse off than I was without it.

Noted. My point was more so that the Heroes version of defiant skills have all those issues and more, and the higher HP threshold isn't much of an improvement when considering how easy it is to match those buffs without needing low health. The 3H versions (or the offensive ones at least, since I think basically everyone agrees the defence and res versions are useless) are at least sizeable enough to the point they might make some difference, especially considering the player phase nature of the game.

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ehh, the way I see it, most mages were an absolute effing joke in Fates (I'm not exactly enthused to devote a unit slot to the likes of Orochi or Hayato, let alone Rinkah... Hell, I'd go so far as to think the reason why the armorslayer came so early in Birthright was because they had to make up for the fact that Birthright mages sucked more ass than Little Mac's recovery). You do have a point on Seal Resistance coming late in 3H, though.

Challenge: Describe something as bad without mentioning "Little Mac's recovery"

OR Draw 25 Cards.

Also, it seems we've derailed again. How good Seal Resistance is in Fates is immaterial to its performance in Three Houses. Same for Heroes' versions of the Defiant skills. Like, you don't hear me criticizing 3H Dancers on the basis that "if I wanted to use a Dancer, I'd just play Genealogy instead".

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52 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Challenge: Describe something as bad without mentioning "Little Mac's recovery"

OR Draw 25 Cards.

Also, it seems we've derailed again. How good Seal Resistance is in Fates is immaterial to its performance in Three Houses. Same for Heroes' versions of the Defiant skills. Like, you don't hear me criticizing 3H Dancers on the basis that "if I wanted to use a Dancer, I'd just play Genealogy instead".

Eh, the point was more that if I want to take advantage of something, I'd rather it be possible without shooting myself in the foot in the process. And that mages suck in Fates (at least unless you're Leo or Ophelia). The Dancer point isn't really much of one because dancers are helpful no matter the game.

4 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Noted. My point was more so that the Heroes version of defiant skills have all those issues and more, and the higher HP threshold isn't much of an improvement when considering how easy it is to match those buffs without needing low health. The 3H versions (or the offensive ones at least, since I think basically everyone agrees the defence and res versions are useless) are at least sizeable enough to the point they might make some difference, especially considering the player phase nature of the game.

Duly noted. The thing is, though, there's generally not much risk to using them in FEH due to the way the game is designed (at least, aside from panic), whereas between the really low HP threshold needed and the fact that almost all of the Defiant abilities are tied to mastering Master tier classes, I'd find it really hard to justify using Defiants in 3H at best (assuming I even master the associated classes by the time the game is over, which tends not to happen)...

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17 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Duly noted. The thing is, though, there's generally not much risk to using them in FEH due to the way the game is designed (at least, aside from panic), whereas between the really low HP threshold needed and the fact that almost all of the Defiant abilities are tied to mastering Master tier classes, I'd find it really hard to justify using Defiants in 3H at best (assuming I even master the associated classes by the time the game is over, which tends not to happen)...

Even more duly noted. Overall I think the opportunity cost is what turns most people off the heroes versions since the A slot has some pretty powerful skills. And reasonably low risk isn’t super appealing when you can match the rewards with even less risk. But yeah, like Shanty Pete said we’re going off topic again lmao

Speaking in terms of 3H defiants I find them at least serviceable (aside from the obvious 2) since I prefer high risk high reward plays- and the fact that the offensive ones also work on player phase builds reduces a big part of the risk. Is that in part shaped due to Divine Pulse being an easily abusable mechanic? Probably. As for whether they should be master class skills, definitely not. If they were all on advanced classes they’d be better, I think.

 

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Eh, the point was more that if I want to take advantage of something, I'd rather it be possible without shooting myself in the foot in the process. And that mages suck in Fates (at least unless you're Leo or Ophelia). The Dancer point isn't really much of one because dancers are helpful no matter the game.

The notion behind the "dancer point" was to highlight that "Just because a mechanic is better in game X than it is in game Y, doesn't mean that mechanic is bad in game Y". The point of "shooting oneself in the foot" is a fair one, because it's confined to details internal to 3H. I won't deny that Defiant builds take a bit of setup. But I tend to think of it as "careful curation to achieve maximal performance", rather than directly harming one's self or one strategy.

Aside: Dark Mages and Diviners aren't the only potential beneficiaries of Seal Resistance. Anyone who wields Tomes, Spirits, or magical weapons can benefit from the inflicted debuff. Such as Nohrrin, Flame Shuriken Felicia, or Onmyoji Sakura. So even if "Fates mages bad" is true (not saying it is), it doesn't strictly follow that "Seal Res bad". And now I'm guilty of re-derailing things, huh.

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On 8/11/2021 at 9:07 AM, Anathaco said:

Even more duly noted. Overall I think the opportunity cost is what turns most people off the heroes versions since the A slot has some pretty powerful skills. And reasonably low risk isn’t super appealing when you can match the rewards with even less risk. But yeah, like Shanty Pete said we’re going off topic again lmao

Speaking in terms of 3H defiants I find them at least serviceable (aside from the obvious 2) since I prefer high risk high reward plays- and the fact that the offensive ones also work on player phase builds reduces a big part of the risk. Is that in part shaped due to Divine Pulse being an easily abusable mechanic? Probably. As for whether they should be master class skills, definitely not. If they were all on advanced classes they’d be better, I think.

That's fair.

Regarding that, I'd say that being able to use them on player phase builds doesn't do enough to alleviate the risk, because there's still that point about needing to get to low HP AND keep them alive at low HP in the first place (this, of course, ignores the fact that they come late). And if you get there, you're basically restricted to attacking enemies that can't counter if you want to stay alive, or you have to support them with other skills that may not be good, which means devoting multiple skill slots to them. At a point where you probably have many better skills to use. Not to mention the benefits just don't make up for making the unit much harder to use imo.

On 8/11/2021 at 11:48 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The notion behind the "dancer point" was to highlight that "Just because a mechanic is better in game X than it is in game Y, doesn't mean that mechanic is bad in game Y". The point of "shooting oneself in the foot" is a fair one, because it's confined to details internal to 3H. I won't deny that Defiant builds take a bit of setup. But I tend to think of it as "careful curation to achieve maximal performance", rather than directly harming one's self or one strategy.

Aside: Dark Mages and Diviners aren't the only potential beneficiaries of Seal Resistance. Anyone who wields Tomes, Spirits, or magical weapons can benefit from the inflicted debuff. Such as Nohrrin, Flame Shuriken Felicia, or Onmyoji Sakura. So even if "Fates mages bad" is true (not saying it is), it doesn't strictly follow that "Seal Res bad". And now I'm guilty of re-derailing things, huh.

The thing is, I'd rather "maximum performance" not come at the cost of making the unit much harder to use. In a similar vein, it's why I'm not a fan of Ferdinand and Subaki's personal skills (both require full HP to work when far more often than not, you WON'T be at full HP without going out of your way to keep them there), or Scarlet's (like the Defiant abilities in this game, it has a really narrow HP threshold needed, and the benefit doesn't make up for making her much harder to use, especially since most ranged weapons are unable to take advantage of the boosted crit).

That is a good point, but the problem is, Seal Resistance is tied to a class with poor distribution (barring partner/friendship seal shenanigans, only 6 characters in all of Fates have it; iirc, that makes it the least accessible class line in the game), and all of the characters with access to said class have issues (one is Revelation exclusive [and he happens to be the best of them all], and most, if not all of the other 5 have serious issues that hamper their worth as units; Hayato comes underleveled, in Birthright at least, and has accuracy issues, which his daughter shares [Rhajat's 10 base skill growth renders her growth practically unfixable], Hinata has poor speed, and Rinkah... well, just read this).

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On 8/14/2021 at 2:56 AM, Shadow Mir said:

Regarding that, I'd say that being able to use them on player phase builds doesn't do enough to alleviate the risk, because there's still that point about needing to get to low HP AND keep them alive at low HP in the first place (this, of course, ignores the fact that they come late). And if you get there, you're basically restricted to attacking enemies that can't counter if you want to stay alive, or you have to support them with other skills that may not be good, which means devoting multiple skill slots to them. At a point where you probably have many better skills to use. Not to mention the benefits just don't make up for making the unit much harder to use imo.

Out of curiosity have you ever tried Vengeance? Same principle, but way better since the damage is actually absurd, and I think the popularity of, say, Bernadetta is a fair testament to the viability of low HP builds. Now, granted, one comes way earlier and has unlimited power, while the other is only around for the timeskip at earliest and isn’t as potentially strong, but overall I think it’s a decent example to demonstrate that the risk can be fairly easily minimised, both in getting to low health and in staying there while you kill stuff.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to by supporting them with other skills that may not be good- could you please elaborate on that? The only skills I could think of that would be useful on this build are more skills that let you secure kills like death blow, which are pretty much always useful. Unless you meant something like desperation? In which case, fair, though a brave weapon would do the same job.

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On 8/14/2021 at 7:59 PM, Anathaco said:

Out of curiosity have you ever tried Vengeance? Same principle, but way better since the damage is actually absurd, and I think the popularity of, say, Bernadetta is a fair testament to the viability of low HP builds. Now, granted, one comes way earlier and has unlimited power, while the other is only around for the timeskip at earliest and isn’t as potentially strong, but overall I think it’s a decent example to demonstrate that the risk can be fairly easily minimised, both in getting to low health and in staying there while you kill stuff.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to by supporting them with other skills that may not be good- could you please elaborate on that? The only skills I could think of that would be useful on this build are more skills that let you secure kills like death blow, which are pretty much always useful. Unless you meant something like desperation? In which case, fair, though a brave weapon would do the same job.

Not really, due in part to who gets it; Dedue is Lions exclusive, Bernadetta has Encloser access, and Cyril is Cyril, AKA high investment for a payoff that doesn't justify the investment. Anyway, I don't consider these comparable because of the gap in availability (also, I'd find it easier to slot in Vengeance than I would a Defiant ability, considering that the latter is coming late in the game, which is a point where I already have loads of good abilities that I'd be hard-pressed to drop one of them for a Defiant ability and call it an improvement - assuming, of course, I even master a Master tier class, which tends not to happen).

I was thinking of stuff like (Battalion) Desperation indeed.

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not really, due in part to who gets it; Dedue is Lions exclusive, Bernadetta has Encloser access, and Cyril is Cyril, AKA high investment for a payoff that doesn't justify the investment. Anyway, I don't consider these comparable because of the gap in availability (also, I'd find it easier to slot in Vengeance than I would a Defiant ability, considering that the latter is coming late in the game, which is a point where I already have loads of good abilities that I'd be hard-pressed to drop one of them for a Defiant ability and call it an improvement - assuming, of course, I even master a Master tier class, which tends not to happen).

I was thinking of stuff like (Battalion) Desperation indeed.

If I may, you may disagree with me on this but I think Vengeance is one of the better combat arts to use just due to it’s damage potential. Yes it is a risky gambit (no pun intended) but one that I personally find easy to maintain as long as I can lure in the right number of enemies at a time or get them to go in the direction I want them to go. Even on maddening it can pay off.

Encloser is useful at times where vengeance is not since that is another great CA. That’s why to me having Bernie and Claude (assuming you’re doing Verdant Wind) particularly make a good combo together since freezing two enemies in place is better than freezing one. Of course with dance you can do it multiple times provided that you have the Opera Co. Battalion as well.

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not really, due in part to who gets it; Dedue is Lions exclusive, Bernadetta has Encloser access, and Cyril is Cyril, AKA high investment for a payoff that doesn't justify the investment. Anyway, I don't consider these comparable because of the gap in availability (also, I'd find it easier to slot in Vengeance than I would a Defiant ability, considering that the latter is coming late in the game, which is a point where I already have loads of good abilities that I'd be hard-pressed to drop one of them for a Defiant ability and call it an improvement - assuming, of course, I even master a Master tier class, which tends not to happen).

I was thinking of stuff like (Battalion) Desperation indeed.

I was more so thinking of the risk-based strategies they both entail. Vengeance is better, certainly, but if you can make vengeance work you could definitely make defiants work. If you're building for them you could definitely spare a slot, I think. There are a lot of good skills in this game but to fill out all your slots you'd need a lot of class mastering or specialising in more than one weapon type. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've had the best experience with Falcon Knights. A very fed Ingrid dodge-tanked entire maps on Maddening. It's very busted in my opinion since there is literally nothing that counters dodge, it's not like there are guaranteed hitting attacks or something. Maybe it's the NG+ carrying it though, I need to play more Maddening without NG+ lol.

Contrary to popular opinion I have not found Wyvern Lords all that overpowered. Their bow weakness is annoying since they don't have enough dodge to nullify it, and I can't stand the shitty accuracy of axes. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'd like to try out Sword Wyvern Lords some time and ignore the axe bonus.

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8 hours ago, Smokie1437 said:

I've had the best experience with Falcon Knights. A very fed Ingrid dodge-tanked entire maps on Maddening. It's very busted in my opinion since there is literally nothing that counters dodge, it's not like there are guaranteed hitting attacks or something. Maybe it's the NG+ carrying it though, I need to play more Maddening without NG+ lol.

Contrary to popular opinion I have not found Wyvern Lords all that overpowered. Their bow weakness is annoying since they don't have enough dodge to nullify it, and I can't stand the shitty accuracy of axes. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'd like to try out Sword Wyvern Lords some time and ignore the axe bonus.

Ferdinand would be a good pick for that type of set if you give him sword avoid.

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