Jump to content

Best Master Class FETH


Best Master Class FETH  

41 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your favorite master class in Fire Emblem Three Houses?

    • Falcon Knight
    • Wyvern Lord
    • Bow Knight
    • Great Knight
    • Dark Knight
    • Holy Knight
    • Gremory
    • War Master
    • Mortal Savant
      0


Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, Smokie1437 said:

I've had the best experience with Falcon Knights. A very fed Ingrid dodge-tanked entire maps on Maddening. It's very busted in my opinion since there is literally nothing that counters dodge, it's not like there are guaranteed hitting attacks or something. Maybe it's the NG+ carrying it though, I need to play more Maddening without NG+ lol.

Contrary to popular opinion I have not found Wyvern Lords all that overpowered. Their bow weakness is annoying since they don't have enough dodge to nullify it, and I can't stand the shitty accuracy of axes. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'd like to try out Sword Wyvern Lords some time and ignore the axe bonus.

You'd also need good charm for this, because gambits ignore avoid (gambit hit rates are determined by the user's charm in comparison to the target's). And getting hit by a gambit is very very bad. Not only does it freeze you in place, it lowers your stats and deprives you of your battalion's bonuses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 113
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

There really isn't a significant Speed Difference between Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord. +1 Speed and 10% Speed Growth aren't really enough to be that significant, espically when it comes to dodgetanking. Compare a Falcon Knight Ingird's performance to a Wyvern Lord Ingird. That extra Strength from Wyvern really helps Ingird compared to the simple Speed boost from Falcon Knight.

But the real reason why people value Wyvern so highly is that they typically combine it with a good personal Combat Art to make use of it's high Strength and flight. Combat arts like Swift Strikes are enough to one round enemies without a class faire thanks to Wyvern's Strength Mod. A paladin using Swift Strikes would deal only 4 damage more than a Wyvern Lord even considering Lancefaire, so it's worthwhile trade to increase mobility of unit.

Add to that having some of the best class bases in the game and being able to access Defiant Crit, it can lead to some pretty dumb things.

Edited by LoneRecon400
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Definitely seconding @LoneRecon400's comments with respect to Falcon Knight vs Wyvern Lord for dodgetanking. I would rather suspect that @Smokie1437's experience is due less to the innate difference of wyvern vs. falcon but more due to Ingrid's natural advantages as a dodgetank, namely the combination of high speed and fastest access to Alert Stance+, as well as naturally high charm to avoid the problem @Shadow Mir mentions. Along with likely giving her her personal battalion, which has a high avoid boost (though obviously, anyone else can mimic that). If your experience is Falcon Ingrid vs. Wyvern Seteth or Sylvain, then the former is going to be a much more effective dodgetank on average.

6 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

But the real reason why people value Wyvern so highly is that they typically combine it with a good personal Combat Art to make use of it's high Strength and flight.

Unquestionably this is extremely effective, but Wyvern is incredibly valued even without good personal combat arts. In fact, the three names brought up in the recent "best character for each class" thread for Wyvern Lord (that I saw, I might have missed one) were Edelgard, Petra, and Hilda. Petra doesn't really have any relevant personal combat arts, Edelgard has an outstanding one but it's highly limited by Agarthum supply until late, and Hilda's is pretty cool but I wouldn't put it on the level of Swift Strikes. But just having good stats goes a long way, especially since a Wyvern can wield a Brave Axe+ which stacks with Axefaire for an 18-might attack, which Swift Strikes needs a relic (or Spear of Assal vs cavalry) to exceed. And of course their +4 speed mod and the fact that female wyvern candidates tend to go for Darting Blow means +10 speed even before considering further augmentations, so natural doubles and even quads are on the table against all but the fastest enemies.

And obviously they're a great class for dodgetanking, as was already mentioned. The only other builds which can compare involve Sword Avoid or Brawl Avoid, the former being limited to the dancer and the latter requiring DLC.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I would rather suspect that @Smokie1437's experience is due less to the innate difference of wyvern vs. falcon but more due to Ingrid's natural advantages as a dodgetank, namely the combination of high speed and fastest access to Alert Stance+, as well as naturally high charm to avoid the problem @Shadow Mir mentions.

This might actually be the case, I don't remember ever having Alert Stance+ on my Wyvern Lords haha. If I ever get around to playing again I'll invest into Wyvern Lords more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/1/2021 at 5:29 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

There really isn't a significant Speed Difference between Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord. +1 Speed and 10% Speed Growth aren't really enough to be that significant, espically when it comes to dodgetanking. Compare a Falcon Knight Ingird's performance to a Wyvern Lord Ingird. That extra Strength from Wyvern really helps Ingird compared to the simple Speed boost from Falcon Knight.

But the real reason why people value Wyvern so highly is that they typically combine it with a good personal Combat Art to make use of it's high Strength and flight. Combat arts like Swift Strikes are enough to one round enemies without a class faire thanks to Wyvern's Strength Mod. A paladin using Swift Strikes would deal only 4 damage more than a Wyvern Lord even considering Lancefaire, so it's worthwhile trade to increase mobility of unit.

Add to that having some of the best class bases in the game and being able to access Defiant Crit, it can lead to some pretty dumb things.

The two Ingrid photos are a bit disingenuous to compare. One is six whole levels higher, and the wyvern is wielding a heavier weapon. The use of an axe over a lance is warranted, to be fair (no pun intended), but if our conversation is on dodgetanking then you shouldn't ignore this fact. Also, if you're dodge tanking, that probably means you're not using vantage/wrath so killer weapons aren't necessary. 

In general, the strength of female fliers is that they can just use both Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord. Units like Petra and Ingrid can probably get both classes mastered at some point, and you can switch into whichever is appropriate. Probably the rule of thumb is that if you can meet whatever damage benchmark you need using lances (which are weaker) then stay in Falcoknight for higher avo. You'll probably also have to check the map and see if there's a lot of lancefaire/axefaire on the board, and adjust appropriately.

You're pretty right though regarding the combat art units like Seteth, Ferdinand, Sylvain. Once you have swift strikes and enough str to oneround people with it (or a horseslayer, either works) then you don't need much else except a way to deliver yourself to the square next to enemies, and for that purpose, Wyvern Lord is the best. That said, if male units could cert into Falcon Knight, I'd probably switch them in and out of that class and wyvern about as much as I suggested to do so with Ingrid/Petra.

Edited by OriginalRaisins
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

The two Ingrid photos are a bit disingenuous to compare. One is six whole levels higher, and the wyvern is wielding a heavier weapon. The use of an axe over a lance is warranted, to be fair (no pun intended), but if our conversation is on dodgetanking then you shouldn't ignore this fact.

Also, if you're dodge tanking, that probably means you're not using vantage/wrath so killer weapons aren't necessary.

The point of the comparison was that there was not a significant Avoid Difference between Wyvern Lord and Falcon Knight. As such, Ingrid would be better valued as Wyvern Lord rather than Falcon Knight due to the significant Strength difference between the two.

I'm confused by the second point. Why would more Crit be unnecessary? Wrath by itself is not enough to achieve consistent Crit rates of 90-100%. Killer Weaponsare massive  reliability boosters that dodgetanks really shouldn't go without even if they are rather heavy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@OriginalRaisins If Seteth, Sylvain, and Ferdinand could be Falcon Knights it would be a clearly superior class for them than Wyvern Lord. Since they're using Lances anyway it allows them to deal more damage, straight-up, and is much easier for them to certify for since Ferdinand/Sylvain no longer need to raise axes past the D+ for Death Blow (or perhaps C for Wyvern Rider, depending on what you do with them in Advanced tier), leaving them more time to train authority and flying along with the rush to A lances.

For Petra/Ingrid I'm generally less convinced of the value of Falcon Knight; both want extra strength badly. Falconknight isn't more evasive than Wyvern Lord (except for 1 point of speed), and they can still switch from axes to swords/lances if you want to squeak out every point of dodge you can at the expense of power, if you're willing to carry two prowess skills.

53 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'm confused by the second point. Why would more Crit be unnecessary? Wrath by itself is not enough to achieve consistent Crit rates of 90-100%. Killer Weaponsare massive  reliability boosters that dodgetanks really shouldn't go without even if they are rather heavy.

They said that Wrath was not being used, so killer weapons are the difference between 0-10 crit and 30-50 crit. Which is not insignificant but probably not the point of the build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

They said that Wrath was not being used, so killer weapons are the difference between 0-10 crit and 30-50 crit. Which is not insignificant but probably not the point of the build.

Derp. Should've read it more thoroughly.

Still, there's nothing to say to you can't combine Wrath and Dodgetanking. Battalion Wrath works quite well, but even Defiant Crit works. For Example.

Edited by LoneRecon400
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'm confused by the second point. Why would more Crit be unnecessary? Wrath by itself is not enough to achieve consistent Crit rates of 90-100%. Killer Weaponsare massive  reliability boosters that dodgetanks really shouldn't go without even if they are rather heavy.

 

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Still, there's nothing to say to you can't combine Wrath and Dodgetanking. Battalion Wrath works quite well, but even Defiant Crit works. For Example.

I guess I made the unfair assumption that if you're using wrath/defiant crit/something else to get crit to 100 then you're also using vantage. If doing vantage/wrath stuff and getting 100 crit 100 hit against enemies, there's nothing to be gained from extra avoid, since everyone who attacks you is going to die before they reach you. Also to hope I've not been misunderstood, my whole point about killer weapons was actually agreeing to your point - that the difference in avoid between the two is negligible. If you've activated Vantage/Wrath, then the wyvern lord could have zero avoid for all you care and it would still be just as effective.

 

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If Seteth, Sylvain, and Ferdinand could be Falcon Knights it would be a clearly superior class for them than Wyvern Lord. Since they're using Lances anyway it allows them to deal more damage, straight-up, and is much easier for them to certify for since Ferdinand/Sylvain no longer need to raise axes past the D+ for Death Blow (or perhaps C for Wyvern Rider, depending on what you do with them in Advanced tier), leaving them more time to train authority and flying along with the rush to A lances.

For Petra/Ingrid I'm generally less convinced of the value of Falcon Knight; both want extra strength badly.

My point is that "wanting the extra strength badly" is something that only happens on certain maps. You can always check the enemy stats to see how much strength you're going to need. If Petra/Ingrid oneround all the important enemies on the map in Falcon knight, then they don't need the extra strength at all. This can also apply to the argument of lancefaire on Sylvain/Ferdi/Seteth, if they oneround everything with swift strikes in both wyvern and Falco/paladin, why does it matter that Falco gives more "strength". At that point the decision to make is around whether or not you value the dex/speed/res from falco or the def from wyvern.

I'm not arguing at all that Wyvern Lord would be superior for males or for females or whatever, the main idea I'm arguing is that you should cert into both and use whichever is appropriate for the map. On maddening mode in particular, you will find that every physical enemy has a breaker+ skill, and willingly walking into an extra 30 hit and avoid is going to harm your chances immensely. FE3h presents you with a lot of information and chances to configure your team, so why work under guidelines and broad principles when you could just look at the map and address the specific situations you're presented with? I'll grant that you're right in most circumstances, but why settle for most when you can cover all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, OriginalRaisins said:

 If you've activated Vantage/Wrath, then the wyvern lord could have zero avoid for all you care and it would still be just as effective.

Thing is that there's quite a few things that can't be killed on EP. Enemy Monsters, Fortress Knights, Siege Equipment, and Gambits are all rather concerning for any Vantage setup. The only thing a dodgetank has to worry about are enemy Gambits making them a lot more flexible.

Vantage setups can be used to great effect, but they're more limited compared to dodgetanks.

Edited by LoneRecon400
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Vantage setups can be used to great effect, but they're more limited compared to dodgetanks.

Vantage builds tend to have an easier time against gambits. Alert Stance means no player phase while Vantage/Wrath can still attack or use gambits to control enemies with battalions.

Vantage/Wrath builds also start working way earlier than avoid based builds. Enemies have 100-130 Hit for most of the game. So until a dodge tank is at 100% avoid, they will be dying if attacked by multiple enemies. Getting 100% avoid requires speed growths, the 10% avoid from WL/FK, avoid rings (which can be difficulty to steal in ch7), and A+ Flying for Alert Stance+. Vantage builds are functional for much more of the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Vantage/Wrath builds also start working way earlier than avoid based builds.

This isn't true, in my experience. Mastering Warrior isn't going to come much before getting Alert Stance+ if at all, assuming a flying boon (and every house has someone with a flying boon). Consider that you need B+ axes to have a reasonable shot at Warrior certification... our dodgetank could obviously also have B+ flying at this time (or even higher). It takes 75 actions (halved with Knowledge Gem) to master Warrior from there. In those same 75 actions (or 38 with a Knowledge Gem), the flier gains 450* flying exp, and now needs only 360 more... which considering that they've also been gaining flying exp from weekly instruction and tutoring during this interval, is going to happen around the same time.

*I think? I'm not certain if the boon bonus is applied after the class bonus or before. If it's after then the number is 525 instead.

I've found avoid setups dramatically more effective/reliable than Vantage/Wrath in this game, for the reasons LoneRecon said. They simply work on way more things. You don't have to worry about siege weapons, monsters, armours, or enemies you fail to kill because they dodge/activate Miracle/etc. You have fewer stats to worry about (just need to optimize avoid/charm, rather than damage/hit/crit/charm). Additionally, you have a higher margin for error, since you're not at low HP, meaning that even if something sneaks through, you can afford that. Finally, the other big advantage is that unlocking Alert Stance+ involves spending time in flying classes, while unlocking Vantage/Wrath involves spending time in Mercenary and Warrior, and there's a large gulf in terms of which classes make for more effective units during this time.

I do agree with the point that dodgetanks do need to use a turn to activate their dodgetanking; definitely a disadvantage they have. Of course you can still give them another action that turn with Dance, but that's true of anyone. Though, it's worth noting that a dodgetank can often take some limited heat even without activating Alert Stance+; a build that is bringing most enemies to sub-zero hit will still brings them to ~20 (~8% real) and this can be "reliable enough" to bait a couple enemies safely, especially ones on the lower end of the hit spectrum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/5/2021 at 4:22 PM, Objeckts said:

Vantage builds tend to have an easier time against gambits. Alert Stance means no player phase while Vantage/Wrath can still attack or use gambits to control enemies with battalions.

Vantage/Wrath builds also start working way earlier than avoid based builds. Enemies have 100-130 Hit for most of the game. So until a dodge tank is at 100% avoid, they will be dying if attacked by multiple enemies. Getting 100% avoid requires speed growths, the 10% avoid from WL/FK, avoid rings (which can be difficulty to steal in ch7), and A+ Flying for Alert Stance+. Vantage builds are functional for much more of the game.

I'd disagree - as stated before, armors (obviously), monsters (a lot of monsters cannot take critical hits while their barriers are up), siege attacks, and gambits are all stuff I'd find concerning if I was trying to use a Vantage/Wrath setup (of course, I'd also have to worry about failing to kill either because my unit didn't crit, the attacker dodged, or Miracle reared its ugly head *Following a Dream intensifies*). Also, Vantage and Wrath require mastering Mercenary and Warrior, respectively.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...