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FionordeQuester

Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)

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Vanguard333 expressed a desire to keep his thread about the GCN version: Therefore, I have made this one for if he wishes to continue debating with me.  With that said...

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Ah, yes; 'the phrasing of the complaints are somewhat uniform, so it must be because a couple reviews told them all to think this way and they're just regurgitating it.' I've always vehemently disliked that accusation because, from what I've seen, people tend to use critiques and reviews in part to help find the words to explain something they felt but couldn't communicate...it ignores the fact that people are capable of independently coming to similar conclusions and even phrasing it similarly because there are only so many ways to say it.

But in this specific case, you haven't played Majora's Mask 3DS.  That's why most of your criticisms had to be prefaced with "I heard this..." and "I heard that...", even before I entered your thread.  I don't see how you could have formed an opinion on it, unless you're repeating what you've been told by Nerrel and others. 

With that in mind...

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More than a few times now within the last half-a-decade, I've had the unpleasant experience where I voiced my criticisms of something (and they were criticisms I came up with entirely on my own because I hadn't watched any reviews or anything yet) only to immediately be met with an angry accusation that I just regurgitated something some reviewer said.

This case is different from those others.  You (presumably) watched the movie you voiced your criticisms on, without any antecedent bias.

But now, in your GCN thread, you have explicitly acknowledged (even before I entered the thread) that you have not played the 3DS version...yet have harshly criticized it.  How can I be one of those people you encountered, when this scenario is so different?

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I have to say; being angrily told that your thoughts aren't your own as a way to dismiss those thoughts is not a fun experience in the slightest.

I'm not saying your thoughts aren't your own—I'm saying they're built upon faulty sources.  I also think that expressing a strong negative opinion on something tends to invite guys like me, who're willing and able to challenge what you say.  Assuming you choose to argue with them (as you chose to do with me)it's helpful to be able to back up your arguments with personal experience.  

Does that make sense?  

Edited by FionordeQuester

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11 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

But in this specific case, you haven't played Majora's Mask 3DS.  That's why most of your criticisms had to be prefaced with "I heard this..." and "I heard that...", even before I entered your thread.  I don't see how you could have formed an opinion on it, unless you're repeating what you've been told by Nerrel and others.

This case is different from those others.  You (presumably) watched the movie you voiced your criticisms on, without any antecedent bias.

But now, in your GCN thread, you have explicitly acknowledged (even before I entered the thread) that you have not played the 3DS version...yet have harshly criticized it.  How can I be one of those people you encountered, when this scenario is so different?

I'm not saying your thoughts aren't your own—I'm saying they're built upon faulty sources.  I also think that expressing a strong negative opinion on something tends to invite guys like me, who're willing and able to challenge what you say.  In that case, it's helpful to be able to back up your arguments with personal experience.  

Does that make sense?

There's the thing though: I'm making those prefaces to make it clear that they are not "my" criticisms.

I wan't saying that the cases are the same; I was just trying to explain my... apprehension towards that particular accusation in general. I'm not saying that you were accusing me of it; I was just stating my reasons why I dislike that accusation.

I wasn't trying to criticize it; merely bring up what I have heard, read and seen about it for confirmation/disconfirmation. Again; I'm not saying you're one of the people I encountered; I was just saying that I vehemently dislike the "they must be regurgitating what reviews said" accusation (even if it's not directed towards me), and why I dislike it.

I never said that you did; I said that it sounded like you were saying that about people who criticized the Majora's Mask 3DS remake.

Of course criticism invites defenders; no one's arguing against that.

 

Side Note: Could you please adjust the name of the thread a bit for added clarity? At a glance, it kind-of sounds like it's saying that my thread ended and this is a sequel to that thread.

Edited by vanguard333

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27 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

There's the thing though: I'm making those prefaces to make it clear that they are not "my" criticisms... [I was] merely bring[ing] up what I have heard, read and seen about it for confirmation/disconfirmation.

Hmm... Alright, I see.  I'll leave out the "play it yourself" talk when I disconfirm future points.

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I wan't saying that the cases are the same; I was just trying to explain my... apprehension towards that particular accusation in general. I'm not saying that you were accusing me of it; I was just stating my reasons why I dislike that accusation.

Fair enough.

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It sounded like you were saying [that] people who criticized the Majora's Mask 3DS remake [were sheep who only regurgitated what others have said].

If that's the case, then I need to apologize.  Could you please forgive me?  That wasn't my intention, but my words are still my responsibility.

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Side Note: Could you please adjust the name of the thread a bit for added clarity? At a glance, it kind-of sounds like it's saying that my thread ended and this is a sequel to that thread.

Sure.  How do you like what I've chosen?

Edited by FionordeQuester

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15 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Hmm... Alright, I see.  I'll be sure to leave out the "you need to play it yourself" talk when I disconfirm future points.

Fair enough.

If that's the case, then I need to apologize.  Could you please forgive me?  That wasn't my intention, but my words are still my responsibility.

Sure.  How do you like what I've chosen?

Oh; feel free to continue that if you're saying something along the lines of, "...It's hard to explain the difference; it's really something you have to play for yourself" or something like that.

It's okay; you're forgiven. I completely understand.

It's definitely a lot more clear now. Thanks. If it were me, I would say "Majora's Mask 3D" rather than "Majora's Mask" to make it clear that I'm referring to the 3DS remake. But the 3DS remake is the only remake the game has had so far, so it doesn't really matter.

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I'm going to jump on here with a list of things I wanted the remake to do that it didn't.

* First and foremost, More Character Movement. Majora's Mask was a revolutionary game for giving characters schedules and lives outside of what the player does. They do things and have their own existence, and because of the time travel it's not a case of them just doing the same thing on loop for infinity. At least, that's what it seems like. But in reality it does this with a handful of characters and then just leaves it. The only characters with any real sort of schedule are Anju, the Postman and Gormon. Everyone else just stands where they are during the day and then warps to where they stand during the night. This is fine for the year 2000 when having stuff like this at all was amazing, but I really wish they'd added more character movement in the remake. I'm not demanding they make a bunch of new stories and sidequests for all the characters, but simple stuff like having the two jugglers finish juggling at some point and then manually walk inside the Stock Pot Inn instead of warping there would be really appreciated by me. They do this with to a small extent with Romani and Cremia who do physically walk inside at their bed time, but I'd love to see it done with other characters. Having characters like Link the Goron and Sakon move through Termina Field would be fantastic too. This element of time and movement is a large core of what makes Majora's Mask what it is, I think it deserves to actually be present in more than a small handful of characters.

*More Dynamic Elements Outside of Clock Town. Jumping off the previous point, the three day system really doesn't apply a whole lot outside of Clock Town. I mean, it still does affect some things like the Graves in Ikana Graveyard or saving Romani Ranch on the first night, but overall outside of Clock Town the whole three day system and even the immanent doom of the world doesn't really hit home. None of the Gorons or the Zora ever do anything (aside from the dying Mikau and that old ass Goron moving slightly in where they're found) and none of them really seem all that concerned with the moon falling. A bit more identity to the characters in these regions and some more dynamic use of the days would be nice (Ikana I can kind of give a pass on this since everyone there is dead anyway).

*Let me sell bombs, arrows, deku nuts and every single think you can put in a bottle in the Curiosity Shop. Bombs, arrows and deku nuts would be great for clearing out your inventory and raising money before playing the Song of Time, and by absolutely everything you can put in a bottle I really mean let me sell the Zora Eggs and Deku Princess to the Curiosity Shop Owner, because the idea of it amuses me.

*A Song of Time Counter. Small addition, but I'd really like it the save file displayed and kept track of how many times you reset time. I like doing the 3 Day Challenge on the N64 to clear the entire story in one run, and even if that's impossible to do with a sped up Inverted Song of Time, keeping track of how efficently you can plan and carry out cycles in the game itself would be a small addition that would be really nice.

*A fourth Song of Time: This is something I'm hit with the Mendella Affect, but I swear when I was a kid I remember there being a fourth song of time that sped up time, turning the clock counter from green to red. And even though it turns out this doesn't exist, I still think this would be a cool feature to have. Made a bit obsolete with the Song of Double Time taking you to any hour of the day you desire, but still would be a useful feature for following certain characters, saving Romani ranch in less real time (I think the alien ghosts movement speed is affected by the inverted song of time, how long you have to spend saving the place certainly is), or just in general wanting to make the time element of the game less forgiving.

*Visit the Carnival of Time: Imagine, after beating Majora you actually got to go to the Carnival of Time for a day before the end. We see parts of it in the credits and know for a fact that despite the suggestion of the ending, Link actually does stick around to play a song with the Indigo-gos. It'd be great to interact with all the citizens of Termina once the danger has passed for them. But of course, how happy they are depends on whether you helped them or not that cycle. I know if there was something like this, then I would be motivated to do one perfect cycle where I try to help everyone. There could be crowds of people from all over the game with tons of timed events like the Indigo-gos playing their performance at 8pm or Anju and Kafei getting married at noon, but that's only if you saved our star's voice and reunited the lovers. Majora's Mask was more about the side quests and world then it was about the main quest and combat, that is why I think this would be a satisfying, amazing and frankly beautiful way to end the game.

 

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43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

*Visit the Carnival of Time: Imagine, after beating Majora you actually got to go to the Carnival of Time for a day before the end. We see parts of it in the credits and know for a fact that despite the suggestion of the ending, Link actually does stick around to play a song with the Indigo-gos. It'd be great to interact with all the citizens of Termina once the danger has passed for them. But of course, how happy they are depends on whether you helped them or not that cycle. I know if there was something like this, then I would be motivated to do one perfect cycle where I try to help everyone. There could be crowds of people from all over the game with tons of timed events like the Indigo-gos playing their performance at 8pm or Anju and Kafei getting married at noon, but that's only if you saved our star's voice and reunited the lovers. Majora's Mask was more about the side quests and world then it was about the main quest and combat, that is why I think this would be a satisfying, amazing and frankly beautiful way to end the game.

I agree with every single point, and this one really would've been beautiful.  It would make "A New Day" more than just a still screen!

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So, I just cleared Woodfall Temple. It was surprisingly more straightforward than I expected. As for Odolwa... I agree with what Nerrel said about the N64 version of Odolwa (about it being a chaotic and frenetic fight with one rule: "first guy to die, loses"), though he does seem a bit... slower... than I was expecting. It was still a fun and chaotic fight; I particularly enjoyed exploiting when he dances to stun him and get close enough to attack with the Kokiri Sword, and I liked how many of his attacks seem designed to punish a player that remains stationary.

One thing I noticed was that, when I burrowed into the deku flower, he didn't fall for it in any way; he kept doing what he was already doing, so I couldn't hurt him on the way out of the flower. But I did succeed in stunning him with a deku nut while flying. I find it interesting because, in all the footage I've seen of the remake, whenever someone burrows into a deku flower, Odolwa immediately stops whatever he's doing and just stands there looking around; unable to notice the player even after the player emerges from the flower. If that really is the case; that he's programmed to become stationary and unable to do anything the moment the player burrows into a deku flower, that does strike me as something that would just kill the pacing and tension in the fight.

Another thing I noticed in my fight against him is that, if you successfully hit Odolwa with a spin attack as Deku Link, it won't hurt him, but it will stun him; opening him up to a hit from something that can hurt him. And yet, in all the footage I've seen of the 3DS version of the fight, hitting him with Deku Link's spin attack does absolutely nothing. If that is indeed the case, then that is an example of an old attack method taken away (and it's a pretty useful one, as Deku Link doesn't take damage from the moths and his spin attack is more likely to connect than a sword strike).

I didn't get to try hitting him with the bubble attack, so I have no idea if that works in the N64 version. I'm going to have to fight Odolwa again to do the swamp boat archery game, so I'll be able to see if that does anything to him.

 

Side Note: I find it rather hilarious that, despite how irrationally they behave when you meet them, the Deku are the only ones to realize that you're a shapeshifter. Seriously; after you deliver the Deku Princess, one of the Deku Scrubs in the room comments on the fact that they know Link is a shapeshifter.

 

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

*More Dynamic Elements Outside of Clock Town. Jumping off the previous point, the three day system really doesn't apply a whole lot outside of Clock Town. I mean, it still does affect some things like the Graves in Ikana Graveyard or saving Romani Ranch on the first night, but overall outside of Clock Town the whole three day system and even the immanent doom of the world doesn't really hit home. None of the Gorons or the Zora ever do anything (aside from the dying Mikau and that old ass Goron moving slightly in where they're found) and none of them really seem all that concerned with the moon falling. A bit more identity to the characters in these regions and some more dynamic use of the days would be nice (Ikana I can kind of give a pass on this since everyone there is dead anyway).

*Let me sell bombs, arrows, deku nuts and every single think you can put in a bottle in the Curiosity Shop. Bombs, arrows and deku nuts would be great for clearing out your inventory and raising money before playing the Song of Time, and by absolutely everything you can put in a bottle I really mean let me sell the Zora Eggs and Deku Princess to the Curiosity Shop Owner, because the idea of it amuses me.

To be fair, in regards to none of them seeming to care about the moon, they're all preoccupied with their own more immediate problems (missing princess + poisoned swamp, curse of winter, missing Zora eggs, etc.) and some of them, such as the monkey in the swamp, do start to notice that some other ominous thing is going on after you save the region from the more immediate problem.

…I thought you already could sell the zora eggs to the Curiosity Shop Owner? The TV Tropes article for the game lists that under the trope "Video Game Cruelty Potential".

Edited by vanguard333

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

If that really is the case; that he's programmed to become stationary and unable to do anything the moment the player burrows into a deku flower, that does strike me as something that would just kill the pacing and tension in the fight.

It's pretty clever, isn't it?  That you can fight him an easy but slow way, or fight him in several faster, but more difficult, ways?

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Another thing I noticed in my fight against him is that, if you successfully hit Odolwa with a spin attack as Deku Link, it won't hurt him, but it will stun him; opening him up to a hit from something that can hurt him. And yet, in all the footage I've seen of the 3DS version of the fight, hitting him with Deku Link's spin attack does absolutely nothing. If that is indeed the case, then that is an example of an old attack method taken away (and it's a pretty useful one, as Deku Link doesn't take damage from the moths and his spin attack is more likely to connect than a sword strike).

EDIT: Just checked!  They all work!  Bubble Blasts stun him, and Deku Spins damage him!  You gotta make sure he's not shielding though, like I did in my video.

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Side Note: I find it rather hilarious that, despite how irrationally they behave when you meet them, the Deku are the only ones to realize that you're a shapeshifter. Seriously; after you deliver the Deku Princess, one of the Deku Scrubs in the room comments on the fact that they know Link is a shapeshifter.

Huh...interesting.

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To be fair, in regards to none of them seeming to care about the moon, they're all preoccupied with their own more immediate problems (missing princess + poisoned swamp, curse of winter, missing Zora eggs, etc.) and some of them, such as the monkey in the swamp, do start to notice that some other ominous thing is going on after you save the region from the more immediate problem.

That's probably what it is, really.  That, or the moon's just always really massive, and making different faces.

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…I thought you already could sell the zora eggs to the Curiosity Shop Owner? The TV Tropes article for the game lists that under the trope "Video Game Cruelty Potential".

Blast.  And I'd already traded in the eggs...

Edited by FionordeQuester

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I know if there was something like this, then I would be motivated to do one perfect cycle where I try to help everyone.

That isn't possible you know. At the least, IIRC, saving the Bomb Shop Old Lady from the thief prevents Anju and Kafei from resolving their story b/c the thief doesn't return to his Ikana base. -I think.

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Majora's Mask was more about the side quests and world then it was about the main quest and combat, that is why I think this would be a satisfying, amazing and frankly beautiful way to end the game.

Except for the part where Termina ceases to exist.

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19 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

It's pretty clever, isn't it?  That you can fight him an easy but slow way, or fight him in several faster, but more difficult, ways?

Pretty sure it depends on if he's shielding or not.  In my video, for example, I ran around him a few times till he stopped, and then I could slash him.  Haven't tried the Deku Spin specifically, however.

Huh...interesting.

That's probably what it is, really.  That, or the moon's just always really massive, and making different faces.

Blast.  And I'd already traded in the eggs...

…No; not really. I mean; maybe, but my point was that it seems like you lose the freneticism of the fight by having Odolwa stop dead in his tracks if you use a deku flower (and where the N64 version had just one flower in the center of the room, the 3DS version has a lot more flowers), so it's not really an upgrade then and instead is more of a trade-off, and I can understand people not liking it because of what's lost.

I don't think so; Nerrel's video, for just one example, shows him spin-attacking as Deku Link while Odolwa's dancing, and it doesn't work. Incidentally, hitting him with the Gilded Sword in the same circumstance didn't work in the Nerrel video either.

Indeed. I think it's the fact that Link is a stranger to them, while bearing a strong resemblance to the Deku Butler's son, that gives it away for them. The Gorons and the Zora mistake Link for Darmani and Mikau, respectively, whereas the Deku know that Link isn't the butler's son.

Speaking of faces, to me, the Moon seems in pain in the N64 version, which would certainly explain the moon's tear. Why does the 3DS version look angry?

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

But of course, how happy they are depends on whether you helped them or not that cycle.

The problem with that is that the ending of Majora's Mask converges everything you did across the cycles; every way that you helped the people of Termina, no matter which cycle you helped them in, is part of the timeline once Link's beaten the Majora's Mask thanks to the goddess of time converging it all in the best possible way. For proof of this, it doesn't matter what cycle you help Anju and Kafei in; if you complete the sidequest, their wedding happens after you beat the moon. 

It's almost certainly for the best; not just for Termina, but for Link himself. It means that there's a place where time enabled him to be a hero and a friend, rather than take those things from him. Plus, it also avoids him being guilty of a truly absurd amount of bank fraud.

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I don't know all the details between the differences of the GC version and the DS version, but what I do know is the DS textures seemed hideously ugly and repetitive vs the strikingly minimalist ones gank'd from the N64.  Ikana Valley was a pretty bad offender especially. 

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…No; not really. I mean; maybe, but my point was that it seems like you lose the freneticism of the fight by having Odolwa stop dead in his tracks if you use a deku flower (and where the N64 version had just one flower in the center of the room, the 3DS version has a lot more flowers), so it's not really an upgrade then and instead is more of a trade-off, and I can understand people not liking it because of what's lost.

Well, me personally, I'm never against giving the player more choices.  If that's how they want to do it, more power them.

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I don't think so; Nerrel's video, for just one example, shows him spin-attacking as Deku Link while Odolwa's dancing, and it doesn't work. Incidentally, hitting him with the Gilded Sword in the same circumstance didn't work in the Nerrel video either.

I edited my post since then—they all work, so long as you get Oldolwa from behind while he's dancing.  Bubble blasts stun, and Deku Spins do damage.

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Speaking of faces, to me, the Moon seems in pain in the N64 version, which would certainly explain the moon's tear. Why does the 3DS version look angry?

They don't look different to me.  Well, other than that N64 is pointy, while 3DS is smooth, but that's a given.

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For proof of this, it doesn't matter what cycle you help Anju and Kafei in; if you complete the sidequest, their wedding happens after you beat the moon. 

It's almost certainly for the best; not just for Termina, but for Link himself. It means that there's a place where time enabled him to be a hero and a friend, rather than take those things from him. Plus, it also avoids him being guilty of a truly absurd amount of bank fraud.

Huh.  Good observation!

Edited by FionordeQuester

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Still have no idea where Navi is. Why aren't more people upset about this. The whole point of Link's adventure is to find Navi and she's still MIA at the end of the game. I guess it's an effectively tragic subject.

Edited by Original Johan Liebert

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2 hours ago, kradeelav said:

I don't know all the details between the differences of the GC version and the DS version, but what I do know is the DS textures seemed hideously ugly and repetitive vs the strikingly minimalist ones gank'd from the N64.  Ikana Valley was a pretty bad offender especially. 

In terms of graphics and art style, I would say that Majora's Mask on the N64/GC, like a lot of games from that generation, has aged horribly. Unlike those other games from the era, however, that aging is actually to its benefit: someone once told me about an eerie effect created from watching a classic horror movie on VHS that you can't get when watching the same movie on blue-ray because the image is too clean in the blue-ray version, and Majora's Mask on the N64/GC reminds me of what they were describing; because of the game's atmosphere, the visuals aging horribly has actually enabled the visuals to age very well by complementing that eerie atmosphere. 

 

2 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

They don't look different to me.  Well, other than that N64 is pointy, while 3DS is smooth, but that's a given.

Huh.  Good observation!

The face of the moon in the 3DS version is greatly exaggerated compared to the N64/GC version, with the mouth being greatly stretched and the eyeholes being increased in size relative to the eyes themselves, among other changes. I suspect that it was at least in part to compensate for the small screen, but when you compare the two of them, the moon's original face is honestly rather ambiguous: it could be anger, pain, sadness, etc., while the 3DS moon, at least when viewed on a larger screen (don't know how it is on the 3DS) looks like it's angrily staring down Termina and getting ready to eat the city.

Thanks. It makes a lot of sense that they'd write it that way, since, among other reasons, you can't help Anju and Kafei and get to the top of the clock tower in time to play the giant-summoning song in the same cycle. Plus, it's a nice little anti-nihilist (or at least anti-depressing) message: every cycle reset while the moon looms over the player's head can make it seem like it's almost all for nothing; that everything the player does gets undone, but in the end, every way in which you helped everyone ultimately did matter; you really did make a difference after all.

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9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks. It makes a lot of sense that they'd write it that way, since, among other reasons, you can't help Anju and Kafei and get to the top of the clock tower in time to play the giant-summoning song in the same cycle. 

I'm pretty sure you have a small window after Anju & Kafei's quest to reach the top of clock tower. I did a run where I tried to help as many people as I could in one cycle and managed to get to Skull Kid after the quest was done. It needed the Inverted Song of Time and the Bunny ears and even then it was close, but it's possible. The only quest I couldn't do was helping the granny from the bomb shop (doing that blocks Anju and Kafei's quest, which does help quite a few people). I also skipped the dungeon fairies as those require really precise timing and I'm not good enough at the game to pull that off.

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3 minutes ago, Alexmender said:

I'm pretty sure you have a small window after Anju & Kafei's quest to reach the top of clock tower. I did a run where I tried to help as many people as I could in one cycle and managed to get to Skull Kid after the quest was done. It needed the Inverted Song of Time and the Bunny ears and even then it was close, but it's possible. The only quest I couldn't do was helping the granny from the bomb shop (doing that blocks Anju and Kafei's quest, which does help quite a few people). I also skipped the dungeon fairies as those require really precise timing and I'm not good enough at the game to pull that off.

Ah, I see. Never mind about that reason then. My original point about the ending having it that all the cycles converged in the best possible way still stands.

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For what it's worth, the Happy Mask Salesman actually has a brief bit of expanded dialogue in the ending, if you got the following masks...

1) Postman's Hat

2) Kamaro's Mask

3) Great Fairy's Mask

4) Romani's Mask

5) Blast Mask

6) Bunny Hood

7) Circus Leader's Mask

8) Bremen Mask

9) Couple's Mask

It's something along the lines of "My, you sure made a lot of people happy.  I can feel it radiating off these masks", or something like that.

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9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That isn't possible you know. At the least, IIRC, saving the Bomb Shop Old Lady from the thief prevents Anju and Kafei from resolving their story b/c the thief doesn't return to his Ikana base. -I think.

Yes, this is true, stopping Sakon means that Kafei never discovers Sakon's hideout because Sakon never comes into town on the second night to sell the bomb bag. And I love how Majora's Mask does stuff like that. By doing it you can still have Anju waiting for Kafei on the final night, but Kafei never shows up.

9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

The problem with that is that the ending of Majora's Mask converges everything you did across the cycles; every way that you helped the people of Termina, no matter which cycle you helped them in, is part of the timeline once Link's beaten the Majora's Mask thanks to the goddess of time converging it all in the best possible way. For proof of this, it doesn't matter what cycle you help Anju and Kafei in; if you complete the sidequest, their wedding happens after you beat the moon. 

It's almost certainly for the best; not just for Termina, but for Link himself. It means that there's a place where time enabled him to be a hero and a friend, rather than take those things from him. Plus, it also avoids him being guilty of a truly absurd amount of bank fraud.

Well it's either that or credits just be credits and show everything. I never took it to mean there was any converging of timelines.

7 hours ago, Original Johan Liebert said:

Still have no idea where Navi is. Why aren't more people upset about this. The whole point of Link's adventure is to find Navi and she's still MIA at the end of the game. I guess it's an effectively tragic subject.

Maybe the missing friend were the friends we made along the way?

5 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

For what it's worth, the Happy Mask Salesman actually has a brief bit of expanded dialogue in the ending, if you got the following masks...

1) Postman's Hat

2) Kamaro's Mask

3) Great Fairy's Mask

4) Romani's Mask

5) Blast Mask

6) Bunny Hood

7) Circus Leader's Mask

8) Bremen Mask

9) Couple's Mask

It's something along the lines of "My, you sure made a lot of people happy.  I can feel it radiating off these masks", or something like that.

Link stole their happiness and manufactured it into masks. Then reset time and didn't help them at all XD Though speaking of the Circus Leader's Mask, I'm really glad they gave it a function in the 3DS remake. It bothered me to no end that aside from trading it for the Fierce Deity Mask along with all the others, it was a functionally useless mask. The only thing it did in the original stop the Gormans from attacking you in the milk delivery quest, which is quest you have to do to get the Circus Leader's Mask.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well it's either that or credits just be credits and show everything. I never took it to mean there was any converging of timelines.

But what's the in-universe reason for such an occurrence?  Over-analytical guys like me are never satisfied with just out-of-universe answers xD!

Quote

Link stole their happiness and manufactured it into masks. Then reset time and didn't help them at all XD Though speaking of the Circus Leader's Mask, I'm really glad they gave it a function in the 3DS remake. It bothered me to no end that aside from trading it for the Fierce Deity Mask along with all the others, it was a functionally useless mask. The only thing it did in the original stop the Gormans from attacking you in the milk delivery quest, which is quest you have to do to get the Circus Leader's Mask.

Indeed!  One of my favorite changes as well.

Say, I had an epiphany on why Deku & Zora were changed like they were.  It's...well it's not a good reason, but it's a reason, with a semblance of logic behind it.  Wanna hear it?

Edited by FionordeQuester

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12 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

For what it's worth, the Happy Mask Salesman actually has a brief bit of expanded dialogue in the ending, if you got the following masks...

1) Postman's Hat

2) Kamaro's Mask

3) Great Fairy's Mask

4) Romani's Mask

5) Blast Mask

6) Bunny Hood

7) Circus Leader's Mask

8) Bremen Mask

9) Couple's Mask

It's something along the lines of "My, you sure made a lot of people happy.  I can feel it radiating off these masks", or something like that.

Doesn't he say that in the original game if you talk to him while wearing those masks? Just yesterday, I walked up to him while wearing the bunny hood and he said something along those lines.

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well it's either that or credits just be credits and show everything. I never took it to mean there was any converging of timelines.

I see; I honestly think it is the convergence thing, as you're already dealing with the goddess of time manipulating time in Link's favour, and it honestly would fit the themes of the game. I've seen a number of people gush about how Majora's Mask explores themes of bleakness, despair and inevitability. While they are onto something, I think they are missing something key: that Majora's Mask in many ways is about overcoming those things; that it's about defying despair and grimness, and Link ultimately defies the seeming inevitability of the moon destroying Termina. I think it makes sense then to have such a game end on every good that Link did mattering, for that thematic reason.

 

14 hours ago, Original Johan Liebert said:

Still have no idea where Navi is. Why aren't more people upset about this. The whole point of Link's adventure is to find Navi and she's still MIA at the end of the game. I guess it's an effectively tragic subject.

Considering that the lesson Skull Kid (the other kid-from-the-forest in the game and in some ways a tragic foil of Link) learns at the end is that the four giants are still his friends even after they've departed him, one could see Link as learning the same lesson by the end: that Navi is still his friend even though she's gone (and at least, this way, he doesn't have to hear, "Hey! Listen!" every ten seconds), so whether or not Link ever finds Navi doesn't really matter in that sense, as at least his quest through Termina does give him some sense of closure.

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14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Doesn't he say that in the original game if you talk to him while wearing those masks? Just yesterday, I walked up to him while wearing the bunny hood and he said something along those lines.

Oh it's in the original game too—sorry I forgot to specify 😛 !

14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see; I honestly think it is the convergence thing, as you're already dealing with the goddess of time manipulating time in Link's favour, and it honestly would fit the themes of the game. I've seen a number of people gush about how Majora's Mask explores themes of bleakness, despair and inevitability. While they are onto something, I think they are missing something key: that Majora's Mask in many ways is about overcoming those things; that it's about defying despair and grimness, and Link ultimately defies the seeming inevitability of the moon destroying Termina. I think it makes sense then to have such a game end on every good that Link did mattering, for that thematic reason.

That's part of why I never liked the "Link is dead" theory.  It makes the story end in defeat, if you think of it that way!

14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Considering that the lesson Skull Kid (the other kid-from-the-forest in the game and in some ways a tragic foil of Link) learns at the end is that the four giants are still his friends even after they've departed him, one could see Link as learning the same lesson by the end: that Navi is still his friend even though she's gone (and at least, this way, he doesn't have to hear, "Hey! Listen!" every ten seconds), so whether or not Link ever finds Navi doesn't really matter in that sense, as at least his quest through Termina does give him some sense of closure.

Aw... I love that 🙂 .

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3 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

But what's the in-universe reason for such an occurrence?  Over-analytical guys like me are never satisfied with just out-of-universe answers xD!

All of the things shown do happen, they just only actually occur if done in a cycle where Termina was also saved. For an analytical analysis of the story that makes far more sense than a merging of timelines, which nothing about the ending suggests Link does, or is even capable of doing. It's not like Majora is even doing anything with the timeline that would cause such a thing to happen by defeating it.

35 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

That's part of why I never liked the "Link is dead" theory.  It makes the story end in defeat, if you think of it that way!

Pretty much all "[Character] is dead all along" theories are stupid. Unless it's an actual intended plot point like in the 6th Sense, such theories only ever pick a point in the story where the character is in danger and then say gee wizz things are weird and/or dark in this story. It's the exact same thing as saying "It was a dream all along." It's not something that ever actually adds anything to the story.

Edited by Jotari

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1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

Oh it's in the original game too—sorry I forgot to specify 😛 !

That's part of why I never liked the "Link is dead" theory.  It makes the story end in defeat, if you think of it that way!

Aw... I love that 🙂 .

It's okay.

I've never been a fan of those kinds of theories anyway.

Thanks.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

All of the things shown do happen, they just only actually occur if done in a cycle where Termina was also saved. For an analytical analysis of the story that makes far more sense than a merging of timelines, which nothing about the ending suggests Link does, or is even capable of doing. It's not like Majora is even doing anything with the timeline that would cause such a thing to happen by defeating it.

Majora's Mask isn't doing anything, but the goddess of time is: enabling Link to keep trying over and over again, and enabling him to continue to carry key items (such as the masks) through each reset. Link being able to keep certain items and free the four giants in different cycles would point to the idea of the goddess of time enabling certain things to converge in Link's favour. You might say it's a gameplay mechanic, but the Four Giants being freed in separate cycles means it's in-universe.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It's the exact same thing as saying "It was a dream all along." It's not something that ever actually adds anything to the story.

I think Link's Awakening would like to have a word with you about that.

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9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Majora's Mask isn't doing anything, but the goddess of time is: enabling Link to keep trying over and over again, and enabling him to continue to carry key items (such as the masks) through each reset. Link being able to keep certain items and free the four giants in different cycles would point to the idea of the goddess of time enabling certain things to converge in Link's favour. You might say it's a gameplay mechanic, but the Four Giants being freed in separate cycles means it's in-universe.

That's because Link already holds the Remains of the four bosses.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I think Link's Awakening would like to have a word with you about that.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Pretty much all "[Character] is dead all along" theories are stupid. Unless it's an actual intended plot point like in the 6th Sense, such theories only ever pick a point in the story where the character is in danger and then say gee wizz things are weird and/or dark in this story. It's the exact same thing as saying "It was a dream all along." It's not something that ever actually adds anything to the story.

 

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@Jotari My point was that he carries those remains through every cycle, just like he carries his ocarina, his bow, the gilded sword, etc.

In regards to the Link's Awakening thing, I was making a joke, but yes; you did mention that, so I guess my joke doesn't really work since you had accounted for it.

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