Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)

[FionordeQuester]

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Holy fuck, this awakened an ancient memory of mine.

Lol, yeah, that was an old movie, eh?  Was wondering if anyone'd remember that!

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Anyways, Majora's Mask 3D isn't a bad remake. As someone who has Majora's Mask as his favorite Zelda game, i actually prefer the 3DS remake. Yeah the original is good but the remake is just much more convenient to play. Between being able to save at any time (you can savescum the fucking Goron Race, thank God), improved notebook, the ability to actually see in a few places (Woodfall Temple in the original had places where you just flatout couldn't see), etc, it just makes for a smoother experience. The only legitimate downside is the Zora nerf but like that's it.

 That about sums up my thoughts on the remake, yeah 🙂 . 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

And yeah, i have seen a certain video about the subject. Didn't exactly find it convincing tbh.

Indeed.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Okay. I'm just saying that I think it's an area where a number of people would blame the game and have reason to do so.

What reason is that, out of curiosity?  I can't think of what it'd be.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. I was already aware of the rubber-banding (which I've honestly never been a fan of in any game with a racing mini-game), and I wasn't thinking of the chateau romani as a way to go faster; just simply a way to not have to worry about failing to hit magic jars and run out of magic. The goron race has too many ways to automatically lose: you run out of magic, you lose; you get hit by another goron (even though you're the only goron with spikes), you lose; you go too fast, you lose due to rubber-banding; and I'm sure I'm forgetting about a dozen other ways in which, if the player does something even slightly imperfectly, the player loses.

I see.  Well, if you wish, you could beat up Goht, do the Powder Keg exam, start another cycle, then get the Romani Mask.  Then, start a cycle after that, SoDT to 6PM, beat up Goht again, drink the Chateau, then do the race.  That's an option 🙂 .

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I don't think so; it just strikes me as, "Oh, we forgot to put cheese on your burger, so we added extra tomato to compensate"; it's not how it works.

The comparison I'd use is that the way they made their hamburgers was liked by some customers, disliked by others.  So, they changed the recipe in a way that'd attract the other customers, while hoping they kept what the old customers like about the old recipe.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks. Yeah; why weren't the transformation masks mapped to the control pad? That could've even been done with the original version: all the control pad is doing is acting as a toggle for the mini-map, and it only needs one of the four sides for doing that. Majora's Mask really makes you feel the weight of only three items being selectable at a time.

One of the reasons I liked 3DS regardless.  Having the Ocarina & Pictograph mapped separately was a big help, as was having four slots instead of three!

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I wasn't meaning in terms of intent; I was meaning in terms of execution. Having to get a bit of a run-up on small platforms is something even I can see would only increase the tedium, not the actual challenge.

Meh, I liked it well enough.  My only problem was that the nerf also affected overworld travel.  I would've just removed some lily pads, if I were Grezzo.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I can't speak about parity between Goron Link and Zora Link as I haven't gotten to those parts in the original version yet, but I suspect that, while added parity between them would've sounded neat in their heads, in practice, it's like gutting the Wii U version of Breath of the Wild's touchscreen controls for parity with the Switch version

Pretty much.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

That's the thing; I wasn't talking about gamers, I was talking about play-testers. Gamers think, "Let's see how well I can do this" while play-testers think, "Let's see how well the game works"

That's not what Grezzo's design philosophy was—not according to them, at least.

Again, if they're the sorts of gamers that'd complain about lily-hopping being too hard, why were fine with having Goron travel drain their magic?  Fine with adding magic drain to Zora travel?  And fine with all of the fairly difficult mini-games?

Whatever problems they may have, it doesn't look like "bad gaming skills" are one of them.  They understand the importance of having challenge in their games..

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Honestly, for me, the fun for the hopping was seeing what kinds of shortcuts I could take with the spin-attack hopping, and that often amounted to overestimating (or failing to pull off the spin attack hopping) and ending up in the water. For me, that's where the challenge was: you can navigate the swamp more quickly, but you have to have the practice and skill to pull it off, and if you can't, then you cost yourself time and may as well have just normal-hopped in less time than the time those tries took.

It's why my approach to ramping up the difficulty would've been different—I'd just decrease the amount of lily pads while keeping Deku movement the same.

[vanguard333]

26 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

What reason is that, out of curiosity?  I can't think of what it'd be.

Well, the magic jars are out of the way and, if the person already dislikes that the zora swimming is now tied to the magic, I can see them consider having to additionally aim for magic jars to be a pointless frustration.

 

28 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

I see.  Well, if you wish, you could beat up Goht, do the Powder Keg exam, start another cycle, then get the Romani Mask.  Then, start a cycle after that, SoDT to 6PM, beat up Goht again, drink the Chateau, then do the race.  That's an option 🙂 .

I suppose. Perhaps I'll just try the race without the chateau romani. I don't know; I guess I just read somewhere that the drink makes stuff like the fights against Goht and Twinmold and the goron race easier, but perhaps that person was just farming for gold dust to sell to the curiosity shop and not to get the gilded sword.

32 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

The comparison I'd use is that the way they made their hamburgers was liked by some customers, disliked by others.  So, they changed the recipe in a way that'd attract the other customers, while hoping they kept what the old customers like about the old recipe.

Well, there's a problem with that (not the comparison; just the comparison's natural conclusion): the thing about any product is that you can't please everyone; if you try, you end up with mush. Your metaphor kind-of highlights a problem I'd been avoiding trying to say out loud in case it might be a bit presumptuous of me, but, from what I've seen and read of the remake, it seems like it was designed for people who disliked and/or gave up on the original game; not for people who enjoyed it, and I honestly think that is a dangerous mindset to have when remaking something, and it's incidentally the opposite mindset that Grezzo had when making Ocarina of Time 3D based on everything they said about making that remake.

I already knew about Aonuma going through the N64 version looking for things he didn't like about it (and it is probable that his judgement of the game in hindsight like this may have been clouded by his bad experience with developing the game and the fact that he looks back on the original with dread), and now you've shown me that one of the developers/play-testers was someone who couldn't finish the original game and blamed the game for it, as well as another developer stating that they based all the changes on Aonuma's "what in the world was I thinking" list.

43 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

One of the reasons I liked 3DS regardless.  Having the Ocarina & Pictograph mapped separately was a big help, as was having four slots instead of three!

Meh, I liked it well enough.  My only problem was that the nerf also affected overworld travel.  I would've just removed some lily pads, if I were Grezzo.

Pretty much.

Having that stuff mapped separately certainly would be a big convenience, though when do you ever need to use the pictograph outside the swamp?

I too would've just removed a couple lily pads and kept movement the same.

I see. That's what I thought. And this is unrelated, but can I just say that Nintendo gutting the touchescreen controls from the Wii U version of BOTW was both cruel and completely stupid; no one who didn't already own a Wii U was going to buy the Wii U version just because of touchscreen controls, no one who already had a Wii U was going to buy the Switch version just because they were removed, and having text on the touchscreen constantly blinking at me while I'm playing was no doubt deliberately meant to be annoying; as if they were saying, "Don't want to be annoyed like this? Buy the Switch version!"

54 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

That's not what Grezzo's design philosophy was—not according to them, at least.

 

Again, if they're the sorts of gamers that'd complain about lily-hopping being too hard, why were fine with having Goron travel drain their magic?  Fine with adding magic drain to Zora travel?  And fine with all of the fairly difficult mini-games?

Whatever problems they may have, it doesn't look like "bad gaming skills" are one of them.  They understand the importance of having challenge in their games..

Once again, I'm not saying that they have "bad gaming skills" (and also, putting quotes around something I never said is an easy way to make me decide you're not worth discussing things with, as I really dislike when people misconstrue other people's arguments); I just said that, where a player might've interpreted something as the player messing up, they, because they were looking for problems with the games, might've instead seen it as the game's fault, regardless of which it actually might've been, simply because of their viewpoint when looking through the game for problems. And the thing you posted confirmed that, while they wanted to preserve the challenge as much as possible, they did go in with the "let's see what's broken and needs to be fixed" mindset.

[FionordeQuester]

35 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, the magic jars are out of the way and, if the person already dislikes that the zora swimming is now tied to the magic, I can see them consider having to additionally aim for magic jars to be a pointless frustration.

It's still under your control, however. 

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I suppose. Perhaps I'll just try the race without the chateau romani. I don't know; I guess I just read somewhere that the drink makes stuff like the fights against Goht and Twinmold and the goron race easier, but perhaps that person was just farming for gold dust to sell to the curiosity shop and not to get the gilded sword.

Goht has a pretty simple quick kill method I could show you if you like, on N64.  Perhaps that'll help?

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Well, there's a problem with that (not the comparison; just the comparison's natural conclusion): the thing about any product is that you can't please everyone; if you try, you end up with mush.

Sure, but you can please as many you can.  Me, for example, I loved the original N64 version, and ended up liking this one even more.

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Your metaphor kind-of highlights a problem I'd been avoiding trying to say out loud in case it might be a bit presumptuous of me, but, from what I've seen and read of the remake, it seems like it was designed for people who disliked and/or gave up on the original game; not for people who enjoyed it, and I honestly think that is a dangerous mindset to have when remaking something, and it's incidentally the opposite mindset that Grezzo had when making Ocarina of Time 3D based on everything they said about making that remake.

What I got out of that was that they were designing it for both groups of people, not just one.  Hence their talk about preserving the original challenge, and preserving that sense of time running out.

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I already knew about Aonuma going through the N64 version looking for things he didn't like about it (and it is probable that his judgement of the game in hindsight like this may have been clouded by his bad experience with developing the game and the fact that he looks back on the original with dread), and now you've shown me that one of the developers/play-testers was someone who couldn't finish the original game and blamed the game for it, as well as another developer stating that they based all the changes on Aonuma's "what in the world was I thinking" list.

All I'll say on this point is that the changes they made were logical in my mind.  Had they left Deku & Zora Link alone, tested the Twinmold fight more thoroughly, and maybe expanded the amount of places the Ice Arrows worked (if that wasn't too much play-testing), I would've said that every single change was for the better.  Better for gameplay, anyway.

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Having that stuff mapped separately certainly would be a big convenience, though when do you ever need to use the pictograph outside the swamp?

You need it to get a picture of a female pirate.  Speaking of which...make sure you get a good shot of her face.  The N64 requires that for the fisherman to accept the photo.  The 3DS allows you to take it however you want.

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I too would've just removed a couple lily pads and kept movement the same.

Indeed.

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I see. That's what I thought. And this is unrelated, but can I just say that Nintendo gutting the touchescreen controls from the Wii U version of BOTW was both cruel and completely stupid; no one who didn't already own a Wii U was going to buy the Wii U version just because of touchscreen controls, no one who already had a Wii U was going to buy the Switch version just because they were removed, and having text on the touchscreen constantly blinking at me while I'm playing was no doubt deliberately meant to be annoying; as if they were saying, "Don't want to be annoyed like this? Buy the Switch version!"

Wouldn't know—never played past Twilight Princess.

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Once again, I'm not saying that they have "bad gaming skills" (and also, putting quotes around something I never said is an easy way to make me decide you're not worth discussing things with, as I really dislike when people misconstrue other people's arguments); I just said that, where a player might've interpreted something as the player messing up, they, because they were looking for problems with the games, might've instead seen it as the game's fault, regardless of which it actually might've been, simply because of their viewpoint when looking through the game for problems.

...Hmm.  You're right—I'm using quotation marks incorrectly.  I'd used them to summarize an idea, rather than as direct quotes, but that's not correct.  Sorry for the confusion & frustration.

Still, what is a bad gamer, but someone who blames the game rather than themselves?  Doesn't your presumption about their philosophy necessarily make them bad gamers?

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And the thing you posted confirmed that, while they wanted to preserve the challenge as much as possible, they did go in with the "let's see what's broken and needs to be fixed" mindset.

As they should.  That's how to properly remake a game, IMO.

Edited July 14, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[FionordeQuester]

Hold on, before you reply, I edited my argument a bit.  Wanted to warn you in advance, since I can see you typing.

Edited July 14, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

It's still under your control, however. 

Goht has a pretty simple quick kill method I could show you if you like, on N64.  Perhaps that'll help?

All I'll say on this point is that the changes they made were logical in my mind.  Had they left Deku & Zora Link alone, tested the Twinmold fight more thoroughly, and maybe expanded the amount of places the Ice Arrows worked (if that wasn't too much play-testing), I would've said that every single change was for the better.  Better for gameplay, anyway.

You need it to get a picture of a female pirate.  Speaking of which...make sure you get a good shot of her face.  The N64 requires that for the fisherman to accept the photo.  The 3DS allows you to take it however you want.

Wouldn't know—never played past Twilight Princess.

...Hmm.  You're right—I'm using quotation marks incorrectly.  I'd used them to summarize an idea, rather than as direct quotes, but that's not correct.  Sorry for the confusion & frustration.

Still, what is a bad gamer, but someone who blames the game rather than themselves?  Doesn't your presumption about their philosophy necessarily make them bad gamers?

As they should.  That's how to properly remake a game, IMO.

I see.

Perhaps; I still haven't gotten to Goht yet, though, so another time perhaps.

I see. I'm just pointing out that it is a dangerous mindset; all too often a push to please everyone just ends up pleasing no one. Just look at Metroid Other M: the game was made in the hopes of increasing the rather small Japanese fanbase for the Metroid series (the series has never been nearly as big a success in Japan as it was in the west) and not only did it fail to bring in more Japanese fans, it angered huge amounts of Western fans and ended up a flop as a result.

Oh, yeah; I forgot about that.

I see.

It's okay; I figured you weren't using them to argue in bad faith; at least, not intentionally.

The thing is that I'm not defining them as gamers at all; I'm pointing out that their perspective as playtesters looking to fix a game is different from that of a player looking to play a game.

I don't think so; at least, not as the main thing you're going in to do. Take Ocarina of Time 3D for example; for that game, they weren't going in to see what needed to be fixed; they went in to see what the game was and what people enjoyed about it. Their goal was essentially, "This is one of the most acclaimed games of all time; let's put it on the 3DS without breaking it." It was even to the point where they even made sure to preserve a number of glitches (such as apparently one involving Jabu-Jabu) and, after realizing that they had removed something as small as one of the ways to burn the spider web above the entrance to the boss room in the Deku Tree, they went back and added it back in just to preserve the original experience as much as possible. I'm not saying "How they remade Ocarina good; how they remade Majora bad"; I'm just pointing out that there is a striking difference between what mindset the team had when remaking the two games, and that one method resonated with more fans than the other.

[FionordeQuester]

11 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Perhaps; I still haven't gotten to Goht yet, though, so another time perhaps.

Sure thing.  I'll be on stand-by for if you need it. 

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I see. I'm just pointing out that it is a dangerous mindset; all too often a push to please everyone just ends up pleasing no one. Just look at Metroid Other M: the game was made in the hopes of increasing the rather small Japanese fanbase for the Metroid series (the series has never been nearly as big a success in Japan as it was in the west) and not only did it fail to bring in more Japanese fans, it angered huge amounts of Western fans and ended up a flop as a result.

Sure, it's dangerous.  But I don't think it's bad in and of itself.  Just look at Metroid: Zero Mission.  That was a remake of the very first game, yet it changed so much, it's practically a brand new game in itself.  Yet, that got nothing but warm critical reception.  

...Probably helped that the original Metroid was packaged with it, too.

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Oh, yeah; I forgot about that.

Mmm.  Make sure you complete the Oceanside Skulltula House on Day 1, too.  That was another thing I forgot about, since I'd gotten used to 3DS version.

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I see.

Indeed—I've gotten old enough, now, that I have to carefully weigh how much money I'm putting down, when buying all these new-fangled "PS5's", or whatever 😛 .  That, and whether I'll play 'em often enough to warrant the cost.

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It's okay; I figured you weren't using them to argue in bad faith; at least, not intentionally.

Hmm...is it possible to unintentionally argue in bad faith?  At least, without a stunning lack of self-awareness?

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The thing is that I'm not defining them as gamers at all; I'm pointing out that their perspective as playtesters looking to fix a game is different from that of a player looking to play a game.

I see.  I'm not sure you can divorce the two, though.  Especially since these're guys that were gamers in the past.

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I don't think so; at least, not as the main thing you're going in to do. Take Ocarina of Time 3D for example; for that game, they weren't going in to see what needed to be fixed; they went in to see what the game was and what people enjoyed about it. Their goal was essentially, "This is one of the most acclaimed games of all time; let's put it on the 3DS without breaking it." It was even to the point where they even made sure to preserve a number of glitches (such as apparently one involving Jabu-Jabu) and, after realizing that they had removed something as small as one of the ways to burn the spider web above the entrance to the boss room in the Deku Tree, they went back and added it back in just to preserve the original experience as much as possible. I'm not saying "How they remade Ocarina good; how they remade Majora bad"; I'm just pointing out that there is a striking difference between what mindset the team had when remaking the two games, and that one method resonated with more fans than the other.

Hmm...honestly, my thought is that I prefer having two distinctly different versions of something I enjoy, rather than having two of the same thing on different consoles.  For OoT, for example, there's not really any incentive for me to go back to the N64 version, you know?  Especially with Master Quest packaged inside the 3DS!

Edited July 14, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

Sure thing.  I'll be on stand-by for if you need it. 

Sure, it's dangerous.  But I don't think it's bad in and of itself.  Just look at Metroid: Zero Mission.  That was a remake of the very first game, yet it changed so much, it's practically a brand new game in itself.  Yet, that got nothing but warm critical reception.  

...Probably helped that the original Metroid was packaged with it, too.

Mmm.  Make sure you complete the Oceanside Skulltula House on Day 1, too.  That was another thing I forgot about, since I'd gotten used to 3DS version.

Indeed—I've gotten old enough, now, that I have to carefully weigh how much money I'm putting down, when buying all these new-fangled "PS5's", or whatever 😛 .  That, and whether I'll play 'em often enough to warrant the cost.

Hmm...is it possible to unintentionally argue in bad faith?  At least, without a stunning lack of self-awareness?

I see.  I'm not sure you can divorce the two, though.  Especially since these're guys that were gamers in the past.

Hmm...honestly, my thought is that I prefer having two distinctly different versions of something I enjoy, rather than having two of the same thing on different consoles.  For OoT, for example, there's not really any incentive for me to go back to the N64 version, you know?  Especially with Master Quest packaged inside the 3DS!

Thanks.

Oh; I'm not saying that changes are bad; apart from the stupid plot-ghost things that frankly didn't need to exist, I quite like Final Fantasy 7 Remake. I'm just saying, there's a reason for expressions like, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater", "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it", etc.

Oh, I'm aware that that Skulltula house needs to be completed on the First Day to get the biggest wallet.

I see. That makes sense.

I could see it as possible to unintentionally make a bad-faith argument; for instance, I learned in a critical thinking course I took as an elective that one key to argumentation is to interpret someone's argument in the most favourable reasonable light, and then give no quarter in criticizing/responding to it, and that the cause of the strawman fallacy (just to be clear, not the definition; the cause) is someone skipping steps and unfavourably interpreting the argument. I could see someone accidentally strawman another through simple misinterpretation; it's unlikely, and usually someone who is strawmanning another is doing so on purpose, but I could see it being done accidentally, and the Strawman Fallacy is a type of bad-faith argument. And, incidentally, I did actually once encounter someone online who did indeed have an absolutely stunning lack of self-awareness (it was in a YouTube comments section and it's a long story).

Perhaps.

I suppose, and I can certainly understand that. Though, for me, it does beg the question: when the original hardware grows old and can no longer run the game, will those multiple versions all be available in the future for people to play, or will only one of them exist going forward?

For me, a video game remake has to do two things:

1. Have a clear direction about what sort of remake it wants to be, be it deliberately retro/throwback (Ocarina of Time/Shadow Dragon), a full overhaul (Final Fantasy 7 remake) or somewhere in-between. One of my biggest criticisms of Shadow of Valentia was that it seemed rather directionless and all over the place in this regard.

2. Be made to highlight what was good about the original; if this sounds deliberately vague, that's because it is; with this one, I'm basically just saying that a remake should be made in such a way that it clearly recognizes what appealed to people for the original, if that makes sense. What was good/unique/interesting should be front-and-center.

[FionordeQuester]

5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh; I'm not saying that changes are bad; apart from the stupid plot-ghost things that frankly didn't need to exist, I quite like Final Fantasy 7 Remake. I'm just saying, there's a reason for expressions like, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater", "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it", etc.

Right.

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I could see it as possible to unintentionally make a bad-faith argument; for instance, I learned in a critical thinking course I took as an elective that one key to argumentation is to interpret someone's argument in the most favourable reasonable light, and then give no quarter in criticizing/responding to it, and that the cause of the strawman fallacy (just to be clear, not the definition; the cause) is someone skipping steps and unfavourably interpreting the argument. I could see someone accidentally strawman another through simple misinterpretation; it's unlikely, and usually someone who is strawmanning another is doing so on purpose, but I could see it being done accidentally, and the Strawman Fallacy is a type of bad-faith argument. And, incidentally, I did actually once encounter someone online who did indeed have an absolutely stunning lack of self-awareness (it was in a YouTube comments section and it's a long story).

I see.  I do generally try to interpret arguments in the best light.  It's just, regarding the play-testers thing, I don't differentiate between "play-tester" and "gamer".  So it sounded to me like you were saying that "Good Play-tester = Bad Gamer".  Thank you for clearing that up for me.

On another note, how does this principle apply to companies like Grezzo?  I ask, because I think I've finally realized what's been bothering me the whole time.  You've helped me put words to it with your explanation of "bad faith", so I hope you hear it out.

It seems to me any time there's a change most folks disagree with (not saying this is you, or anyone else here), the instant presumption is that Grezzo was incompetent, or pandering to casuals, or something.  And then even when it's a genuine improvement, the reaction will be "well, they had to do that because of [such and such] reason", or "they wouldn't have done that if they weren't trying to pander to casuals", or something.  And then I have to work hard to think of or present alternatives. 

For instance (not saying this is you, except No. 3.  But only No. 3—the rest are "other guys elsewhere")

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1) "Slow Deku Hopping was a side effect of a careless change, rather than intentional game design" (admittedly wasn't sure of this myself, till I saw swapped Deku Pad placement)

2) "They lied about the game staying just as hard as OG Majora's Mask" (when the alternative is that they made a distinction between "hard" and "cryptic", or simply tried to make up for lost difficulty with added difficulty elsewhere)

3) "The Deku shadows probably only got bigger because they needed to do it for the 3DS' tiny screen" (rather than it just being something they felt like doing)

4) "They wouldn't have removed the 'Tingle picture must be taken in the swamp', 'Gerudo Pirate needs her face in the frame', or 'Oceanside Spider House must be cleared in Day 1' requirements, or "You don't have to watch the full Song of Soaring animation every time anymore", if it weren't for Nintendo's aggressive pandering to casuals" (rather than them just being game designers fixing something frustrating).

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It's this presumption about them, as game developers working on Majora's Mask, that colors every discussion.  Every good change was done for the wrong reasons, and every bad change had equally bad intentions behind it.  I'm not saying this applies to you—I'm saying this is the general impression I get from what I've seen/heard/read from the 3D discourse.

It strikes me as unfair.  Is it valid for me to have that feeling?

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I suppose, and I can certainly understand that. Though, for me, it does beg the question: when the original hardware grows old and can no longer run the game, will those multiple versions all be available in the future for people to play, or will only one of them exist going forward?

I'll worry more about that the day Nintendo stops emulating their old NES games on all their modern consoles.  As-is, they've...actually been pretty generous about that.  Shockingly so.

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For me, a video game remake has to do two things:

1. Have a clear direction about what sort of remake it wants to be, be it deliberately retro/throwback (Ocarina of Time/Shadow Dragon), a full overhaul (Final Fantasy 7 remake) or somewhere in-between. One of my biggest criticisms of Shadow of Valentia was that it seemed rather directionless and all over the place in this regard.

2. Be made to highlight what was good about the original; if this sounds deliberately vague, that's because it is; with this one, I'm basically just saying that a remake should be made in such a way that it clearly recognizes what appealed to people for the original, if that makes sense. What was good/unique/interesting should be front-and-center.

I see.  For me, they didn't change anything I liked about Majora's Mask, apart from the Deku & Zora movement.  Even Twinmold was just a change from "boring but competent" to "interesting but janky". 

Actually, my first reaction was "wow these tweaks are rad"!  "I'm glad they weren't afraid to experiment"!  "They added a whole new side-quest, and a whole new optional dungeon"!  "Wow, these boss fights are brand new!", and etc.  I came out thinking they almost nailed both of those points.

Edited July 14, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Lol, yeah, that was an old movie, eh?  Was wondering if anyone'd remember that!

 That about sums up my thoughts on the remake, yeah 🙂 . 

Indeed.

What reason is that, out of curiosity?  I can't think of what it'd be.

I see.  Well, if you wish, you could beat up Goht, do the Powder Keg exam, start another cycle, then get the Romani Mask.  Then, start a cycle after that, SoDT to 6PM, beat up Goht again, drink the Chateau, then do the race.  That's an option 🙂 .

You need to beat the Goron Race before the Dawn of the Second Day, so using Chateau Romani might be pushing it a bit since you can only get it at 10pm on the First Night. If someone feels they really, really need it then 8 hours might be enough, but personally  I'd prefer to have the full length of the first day to make attempts.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 7/13/2021 at 4:13 AM, Jotari said:

Hazarding a  guess I'd say the Zora might have been changed to match the Goron roll requiring magic. Though I don't think that's a good reason with how both are utilized.

Yeah man. Goron roll lets you move faster on solid ground (80% of the time) while Zora swimming lets you move tolerably in water (20% of the time).

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Yeah man. Goron roll lets you move faster on solid ground (80% of the time) while Zora swimming lets you move tolerably in water (20% of the time).

The mechanics of the goron roll requiring a start up and moving at speeds with less maneuverability means it can't be used for 80% of the surface area of the game though.

[FionordeQuester]

Just finished my playthrough of the N64 version (all this talk made me decide I was gonna LP them soon).  Thoughts:

1) First of all, I apologize for stating there was an extra dungeon.  I was thinking of the Secret Shrine, but...turns out that was in N64 too.  Whoops.

2) I'd forgotten just how slow the text speed was in this version.  You can skip most of it via the B button, but for cutscenes like the Giants after each boss...owch.

3) Never try to do any kind of aiming with a keyboard.  Ever.  Especially not with N64 Zelda controls.  Or if you do, be darn sure your emulator has a Virtual Pad function!

4) Zora's Moon dungeon is completely different.  N64 was pure trial-and-error—you just kept choosing between "left or right tunnel", and just had to memorize where the Heart Piece and Exit was.  It's only in 3DS where you're required to hit timed switches and do well-timed Dolphin Dives.  Yet more evidence that Grezzo was not afraid of challenge.

5) After re-experiencing Gyorg & Twinmold, I can definitely see why Grezzo felt the need to re-work them, especially Twinmold.  Going through them:

Gyorg: Brain-dead simple for as late in the game as he is.  There's basically three ways to do the fight...

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Method #1: "The Boring Strat"—Shoot him with an arrow, dive down and magic shield him, get back on the platform and...repeat four times till dead.  That's the whole strat in a sentence.

Method #2: "The Aggressive Strat"—Chateau de Romani to infinite magic, and keep slamming into the top of him (only the top stuns him—the rest is arbitrarily invincible).  Sounds pretty cool...until you realize just how awful the camera is at "fast and furious" instead of "slow and methodical".  I could barely see him half the times I struck him

Method #3: "The Speedrun Strat"—Shoot him as he charges (so he's stuck in the wall), sink down while Magic Shielding, quickly rise up and down before he moves again, and he'll immediately get stunned again.  Just as trivially easy as Method 1, so long as you got the rhythm down.

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Twinmold: Yesterday, or the day before, I called him "competent but boring".  Having done it again..."competent" might've been too strong of a word.  He's easier for certain, but otherwise just as janky as the 3DS version.  Not janky in all the same ways, but janky all the same. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

—First of all, you can void out, just like in Gerudo Desert.  Do that, and you'll exit the boss room and have to start the entire fight over again.  The borders aren't clearly marked either, apart from the fact that the breakable towers stop extending outward at a certain point.  You wouldn't expect to have to be careful of such a thing. 

—Secondly, the camera zooms way too close to Giant Link.  I'm trying to track two enemies who're each big enough to fill the screen, who're random enough to spawn from wherever they want, and only have two places where you can hurt them... And this is how the game'll look:

—Thirdly, the lag.  There's destructible environments, three giant figures wrestling on screen, a sandstorm blowing, and of course the recoil effects every time Link strikes the wrong spot on their bodies.  The N64 is being pushed to its absolute limits, even with the Expansion Pack, and it compounds the already sluggish movement of Giant Link.

—Despite all the above problems, shrinking down and arrowing them isn't a better alternative.  Tiny Link is moving across sand that slows him down every step of the way, trying to get to giant worms that travel across the sky.  Weak points will take forever to come out of the sand, at which point the front of the body will already move to block it, or another worm will strike from behind.  Plus, the arena doesn't refill arrows—only magic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, Twinmold hits like a wet noodle (even without Double Defense), so you can still overpower it by mashing the B button...but getting a clean fight is fairly difficult. 

The only consistent way I've found is to Crouch Shield, so I can block it at most of the places it can spawn.  After that, it's a matter of getting one of them to ram me head-first.  By doing that, I could chain together a flurry of Crouch Stabs while blocking all its attacks.  But...also that requires me to be stationary for most of the fight.  Practical...but boring as all get-out.

So TL;DR, he sucks in N64, he sucks in 3DS...Twinmold sucks period.  He's a janky mess no matter which version he's in!

EDIT: On a brighter note, most of the mini-bosses are awesome!  Wizzrobe, Wart, Igos du Ikana and his men, Garo Master, & Gomess are all incredibly fun to fight, while being tricky to block and dodge!

Edited July 15, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

By the way, I just reached Snowhead Temple in the GameCube version (and might've completed it if the game hadn't had its second crash), and, in regards to the Goron rolling, am I the only person who found controlling it completely unintuitive, twitchy, and just downright a terrible experience? Rolling through the path with the ramps was fine, but trying to roll to the temple's entrance, and most of the rolling sections within the temple, is just terrible for me.

Seriously; getting to the temple requires first getting across an extremely narrow, curved bridge (which I fell off probably 100 times) that you're encouraged to get through by rolling because of the boulders, and then rolling up a spiral ramp to the entrance, and I probably fell off that spiral ramp about 200 times. It was afternoon on the First Day by the time I got to the temple entrance, and I only got to it because I gave up on rolling my way up the spiral and just walked most of the way; punching any boulder that rolled down the path. And, even once I got to the temple, I spent maybe a quarter of my time within it (and I got all the way to the boss key before the game crashed) plummeting. Goron rolling is a nightmare.

Seriously; because the paths are often very narrow and Goron Link is very fast, you have to get the angle pretty much exactly right, and I would tilt the control stick just the tiniest amount to adjust his angle, only for the game to read it as me wanting Goron Link to veer off and plummet. Then, there are the sloped turns where you have to use Goron Link, and you have to steer him otherwise he will bounce off the wall and go flying out and away from the slope at a 45-degree angle, and there, suddenly, no amount of steering was good enough to avoid him hitting the walls. So, on flat surfaces, any amount of steering is too much, but on banked curves, no amount of steering is good enough, and the spiral ramp into the temple has both!

Seriously; I can't be the only one who found the Goron rolling infuriating. Someone, please tell me: how am I supposed to "git gud" at the Goron rolling? There's nowhere to practice it without plummeting over and over again!

(And, before anyone asks, I played the lullaby and put Biggoron to sleep before trying to access the temple).

 

Ironically, the thing I see the most complaints about with Goron Link: his slow punching speed, I honestly did not mind at all. I found it easy to get good at timing my attacks to hit enemies, and since his attacks are as powerful as the gilded sword, enemies go down quickly. If multiple enemies surrounded me or they blocked my punches one too many times, I just switched to using the cannonball attack (pressing a to curve and pressing be to jump and hit the ground) and the shockwave would deal with them. I heard that the 3DS remake speeds up Goron Link's punches so that they're now as fast as a sword strike, and I honestly don't see the point in that. I don't see what harm it necessarily does, but it strikes me as a bit of a useless change.

[FionordeQuester]

17 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, I just reached Snowhead Temple in the GameCube version (and might've completed it if the game hadn't had its second crash), and, in regards to the Goron rolling, am I the only person who found controlling it completely unintuitive, twitchy, and just downright a terrible experience? Rolling through the path with the ramps was fine, but trying to roll to the temple's entrance, and most of the rolling sections within the temple, is just terrible for me.

It's hard for me to say, since I'd played on a keyboard for this run (I donated most of my games to charity—partially cuz I knew I could emulate them anyway).  That's terrible for movement...but for what it's worth, yeah, I had the same problems with Goron rolling.

Quote

Seriously; getting to the temple requires first getting across an extremely narrow, curved bridge (which I fell off probably 100 times) that you're encouraged to get through by rolling because of the boulders, and then rolling up a spiral ramp to the entrance, and I probably fell off that spiral ramp about 200 times.

Same.

Quote

Seriously; because the paths are often very narrow and Goron Link is very fast, you have to get the angle pretty much exactly right, and I would tilt the control stick just the tiniest amount to adjust his angle, only for the game to read it as me wanting Goron Link to veer off and plummet. Then, there are the sloped turns where you have to use Goron Link, and you have to steer him otherwise he will bounce off the wall and go flying out and away from the slope at a 45-degree angle, and there, suddenly, no amount of steering was good enough to avoid him hitting the walls. So, on flat surfaces, any amount of steering is too much, but on banked curves, no amount of steering is good enough, and the spiral ramp into the temple has both!

I'm not sure if it makes it better, but, it is interesting there's a "slow but easy" option vs. a "fast but hard" option.  Still, perhaps it would've been nice to have Down on the joystick function as a "brake" feature?  Hold the opposite direction to remain in "slow Goron roll" mode?

Quote

Seriously; I can't be the only one who found the Goron rolling infuriating. Someone, please tell me: how am I supposed to "git gud" at the Goron rolling? There's nowhere to practice it without plummeting over and over again!

Only thing I can think of is that it's otherwise the fastest way to travel in the game (even beating out Epona).  Hence, you'd want to get good at it just so you can power through the days.

Again, not a counter-argument—just a thought.

Quote

Ironically, the thing I see the most complaints about with Goron Link: his slow punching speed, I honestly did not mind at all. I found it easy to get good at timing my attacks to hit enemies, and since his attacks are as powerful as the gilded sword, enemies go down quickly. If multiple enemies surrounded me or they blocked my punches one too many times, I just switched to using the cannonball attack (pressing a to curve and pressing be to jump and hit the ground) and the shockwave would deal with them. I heard that the 3DS remake speeds up Goron Link's punches so that they're now as fast as a sword strike, and I honestly don't see the point in that. I don't see what harm it necessarily does, but it strikes me as a bit of a useless change.

You're correct about his punches.  It's extremely nice to have, if you dropped your sword off, and don't want to just Song of Double Time your way to its completion!

Edited July 16, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

@FionordeQuester Thanks.

Perhaps a better idea might've been to tap a for the slow roll, and then hold a to build up speed into the fast roll. Adjusting the camera a bit to better see what's ahead of Goron Link also would've been nice. But, yeah; I guess I'll just have to "git gud". I'm sure it won't take me 1,000 tries tomorrow.

Speaking of which: a note for those playing the GameCube version: do not pause the game while Link is in his crouched "in pain" animation; the emulator can't handle it for whatever reason, and un-pausing will cause the game to crash.

Anyway, as for that change to Goron Link's punches, as I said; I don't mind the slow speed and I can bring down enemies quickly even with it by timing my attacks well (for instance, I'm usually able to punch a Wolfos before it punches me), so I'm honestly not sure what the point would be. Plus, it, combined with the Giant's Mask not growing the sword or shield in the 3DS version, kind-of eliminates the need for the gilded sword. If something you get anyway can deliver the same blow at the same speed as something you have to go out of your way to get, why go out of your way to get the other thing?

[FionordeQuester]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

@FionordeQuester Thanks.

Perhaps a better idea might've been to tap a for the slow roll, and then hold a to build up speed into the fast roll. Adjusting the camera a bit to better see what's ahead of Goron Link also would've been nice. But, yeah; I guess I'll just have to "git gud". I'm sure it won't take me 1,000 tries tomorrow.

Good luck, and hang in there!

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, as for that change to Goron Link's punches, as I said; I don't mind the slow speed and I can bring down enemies quickly even with it by timing my attacks well (for instance, I'm usually able to punch a Wolfos before it punches me), so I'm honestly not sure what the point would be.

Looking at the two again, they also changed the animations.  N64 Goron throws this ridiculous looking haymaker, like he's never thrown a punch before.  3DS Goron throws his punches much straighter.  They're still haymakers, but he doesn't pull his arms all the way back before the punch, like N64 Goron does.  

I think it looks more like how Darmani would actually fight, on top of being a straight buff to his offense.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Plus, it, combined with the Giant's Mask not growing the sword or shield in the 3DS version, kind-of eliminates the need for the gilded sword. If something you get anyway can deliver the same blow at the same speed as something you have to go out of your way to get, why go out of your way to get the other thing?

The Gilded Sword doubles its damage with Jump Slashes, and can do 360 degree attacks with what I call "Quick Spins".  Hylian Link himself is more agile, and can shield when moving.  This is on top of being able to use his other items.

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Good luck, and hang in there!

Looking at the two again, they also changed the animations.  N64 Goron throws this ridiculous looking haymaker, like he's never thrown a punch before.  3DS Goron throws his punches much straighter.  They're still haymakers, but he doesn't pull his arms all the way back before the punch, like N64 Goron does.  

I think it looks more like how Darmani would actually fight, on top of being a straight buff to his offense.

The Gilded Sword doubles its damage with Jump Slashes, and can do 360 degree attacks with what I call "Quick Spins".  Hylian Link himself is more agile, and can shield when moving.  This is on top of being able to use his other items.

Thanks.

Eh, when it comes to video games and telegraphing strikes, I can forgive a small amount of it, as otherwise, players just would not have the reaction time necessary. But I see your point.

I see your point. In any case, I guess I just meant that I myself wouldn't really find the 3DS's sped-up version of Goron Link's punches any more convenient than the N64 versions, but that's just me speaking as one of the few people to apparently not mind the slow attack speed.

[FionordeQuester]

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Eh, when it comes to video games and telegraphing strikes, I can forgive a small amount of it, as otherwise, players just would not have the reaction time necessary. But I see your point.

Thanks 🙂 .

Quote

I see your point. In any case, I guess I just meant that I myself wouldn't really find the 3DS's sped-up version of Goron Link's punches any more convenient than the N64 versions, but that's just me speaking as one of the few people to apparently not mind the slow attack speed.

Trust me, it's way more convenient.  I mean, you could work with N64, but 3DS made it feel good. 

Do you plan to give 3DS a look, out of curiosity?  I know your opinion on its production, but it'd be fun to hear your experience ends up being with the version itself.

Edited July 16, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, FionordeQuester said:

Thanks 🙂 .

Trust me, it's way more convenient.  I mean, you could work with N64, but 3DS made it feel good. 

Do you plan to give 3DS a look, out of curiosity?  I know your opinion on its production, but it'd be fun to hear your experience with the version itself.

You're welcome.

I'll take your word for it.

Eh; probably not. I think I lost my charger for my 3DS at some point (as I haven't been able to find it recently) and I haven't played my 3DS in quite some time, so its battery is probably dead. And besides, I don't normally buy multiple versions of a game; the most I'll do if I'm curious is see if a friend will let me borrow their copy (that's what I did for Wind Waker: I borrowed the original game from a friend sometime before Wind Waker HD released, and then I bought Wind Waker HD about a year later). And, with things being as they are now, that option isn't really an option.

[FionordeQuester]

Blast.  Oh well—your thoughts on the N64 will have to suffice 😛 .

[FionordeQuester]

Oh wow, found some interesting stuff about the 3DS:

1) They fixed the camera during Goron rolling!  The camera pans back significantly further than in N64!

N64 Version:

3DS Version:

From my observation (having just come off N64) Goron rolling itself is also smoother.  3DS Goron seems to turn left and right slower than N64 Goron, so rolling up into Snowhead was significantly easier than it ever was in N64.

2) Grezzo actually removed a hint about where the Great Fairy was, on Cycle 1!  To compare...

N64 ("The Great Fairy's Fountain is in North Clock Town"):

3DS ("The Great Fairy's...somewhere.  Look, I dunno.  Try talking to one of the kids!")

  

Edited July 16, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

12 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Oh wow, found some interesting stuff about the 3DS:

1) They fixed the camera during Goron rolling!  The camera pans back significantly further than in N64!

 

From my observation (having just come off N64) Goron rolling itself is also smoother.  3DS Goron seems to turn left and right slower than N64 Goron, so rolling up into Snowhead was significantly easier than it ever was in N64.

Interesting. Though, for me, it wasn't how close the camera was to Goron Link that was the problem, so much as how low it is; if they had raised the camera just a bit so I could clearly see what was ahead, that would've been great. I mean, the closeness of the camera does help with seeing how large or small an angle correction you need to make; I just wish you could more of what was directly in front of Goron Link.

The improved steering, if really the case, is definitely a plus.

 

As for the Great Fairy thing, I honestly didn't mind Tatl telling you to go to North Clock Town to find her; the first 3-Day Cycle in the N64 version is the only one where you can't save, and it's sped-up compared to the other cycles, so it does make sense that the first hint for where to go is a direct one. For the 3DS version, they probably felt safe removing the hint because you could now save during the first 3-Day Cycle. Plus, it means Tatl also tells the player to talk to the Bombers for hints, which ties into how the Bombers give a lot more hints to stuff in the new version (and, according to Nerrel's video, are far more relentless about it... cue parody ominous music).

[Jotari]

It's less a removed hint and more a changed one, since the players will have to talk to the Bombers at some point too. Though in terms of what the player directly has to do, there's no point in going the great fairy until after you pick up the stray fairy, which you'll only manage to do via random exploration. So hinting towards the bombers as something important is more useful, especially since the Great Fairy is still mentioned (it does make Tatl seem slightly less familiar with Termina though, at least it adds more of her spunky attitude which is best done early on in the adventure before she warms to Link).

[FionordeQuester]

Quote

As for the Great Fairy thing, I honestly didn't mind Tatl telling you to go to North Clock Town to find her; the first 3-Day Cycle in the N64 version is the only one where you can't save, and it's sped-up compared to the other cycles, so it does make sense that the first hint for where to go is a direct one. For the 3DS version, they probably felt safe removing the hint because you could now save during the first 3-Day Cycle.

It's actually only the 3DS version that speeds up the Day 1 Cycle—making time move at 1.5x speed instead of regular speed.  Unless you meant that you don't have the ISoT yet, and therefore it's sped up?  The meaning is ambiguous, so I decided to explain that just to be safe 😛 .

Quote

Plus, it means Tatl also tells the player to talk to the Bombers for hints, which ties into how the Bombers give a lot more hints to stuff in the new version (and, according to Nerrel's video, are far more relentless about it... cue parody ominous music).

Oh, they're not so bad.  You barely notice them really, apart from the Kamaro's Dance cutscene.  Honestly though, I didn't have a problem even with that.  It just looked to me like the kid saw something cool going on, and decided he wanted to dance too!

I am glad you brought up Nerrel, though.  I visited Snowhead yesterday, and...

Oh, and the ledge was never grabbable—I checked that myself as well.  Might even update the video with that.

But, speaking of screw-ups, I was wrong regarding the Gerudo pirates pictos.  The "I need a shot of their face!" text DOES still exist...It's just that the game's a bit hazy on what exactly counts as a "face".  If I had to guess, it's a measure of "distance".  Otherwise, I'm at a loss as to why the following examples worked:

N64 EXAMPLE (The Fisherman accepted this, even though it's the back of her head!):

3DS EXAMPLES (The Fisherman accepted both of these!):

 

I am, however, right about the Tingle pic requirements!  Double checked that real quick as well!

Edited July 16, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

26 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

It's actually only the 3DS version that speeds up the Day 1 Cycle—making time move at 1.5x speed instead of regular speed.  Unless you meant that you don't have the ISoT yet, and therefore it's sped up?  The meaning is ambiguous, so I decided to explain that just to be safe 😛 .

No; the N64 version speeds up the first cycle as well; it has nothing to do with the inverted song of time. I didn't time it, but I do have my clock beside me when I'm playing the game, so I know the first cycle is sped up. You can also tell by how quickly the postman moves on the first cycle compared to other cycles, as, when I was determining what time I could play the postman's minigame after I got the bunny hood, I followed him around on the First Day with the flow of time being normal. He's slower than he was on the first cycle.

Also, the Zelda wiki says that the first cycle is faster than normal in all versions, and that it's actually 1.66 times faster than a normal cycle because each in-game hour on the first cycle is 27 real-life seconds rather than 45.

 

36 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Oh, they're not so bad.  You barely notice them really, apart from the Kamaro's Dance cutscene.  Honestly though, I didn't have a problem even with that.  It just looked to me like the kid saw something cool going on, and decided he wanted to dance too!

I was more making a humorous reference, and I'm sure even Nerrel would say he was exaggerating for comedic effect and to illustrate a point.

 

41 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

I am glad you brought up Nerrel, though.  I visited Snowhead yesterday, and...

Oh, and the ledge was never grabbable—I checked that myself as well.  Might even update the video with that.

Well, because an unrelated plummet, pause & un-pause crashed the game last time I went through the dungeon, I decided to play it safe and use the Deku Link method rather than try leaping towards it. I do feel like double-checking if the ledge can be grabbed; it's not that I don't trust you or anything like that; it's just better if two people check because one might be wrong. I will say that, normally throughout the video, he'd make a point by showing how it worked in the N64 version, so in retrospect, it is a bit odd that he didn't show himself reaching the ledge in the N64 version.

As for the Gerudo pictures... okay. As for Tingle pictures, I couldn't figure out how to get a picture of Tingle without leaving the swamp and rendering the picture unacceptable to the swamp tour guide, so I took a picture of the Deku King; doing that instead rewards the same piece of heart.

 

Anyway, as you may or may not have guessed by me saying "last time through I went through the dungeon", I went through Snowhead Temple again today and had a much better experience overall. I'm nowhere near an expert at rolling Goron Link across narrow, winding platforms, but I didn't plummet a thousand times. I got all the stray fairies, so now I have the extended magic meter; you get that from Snowhead in the N64 version.

I heard the 3DS version swapped the extended magic meter around with Woodfall Temple's reward, which strikes me as an odd and unnecessary change; I can't imagine anything between Woodfall and Snowhead that's made easier by having twice as much magic, the loss of the Great Spin Attack until clearing Snowhead is quite a loss since I found it rather useful, and making the Great Fairy reward a magic meter for two Great Fairies in a row just seems like it would lead at least one person unfamiliar with the game to think that all the Great Fairy rewards are magic meters. Again; it's not a change I'd automatically call bad; it just strikes me as odd and unnecessary. I'm going to guess that it came about from playtesting Snowhead and noticing that you have to use fire arrows, the lens of truth, and Goron rolling (which all consume magic), but Snowhead practically showers the player with mana refills, so you never really risk running out of mana. If you do run out, just go to the next room, smash some jars or some piles of snow, and then go back where you left.

Anyway, I won't be needing that fast way to defeat Goht; I already bested him rather quickly using the Goron rolling method. Sticking to the inside line (i.e. to the left of Goht) enables you to avoid all his attacks that he makes while you're catching up to him except maybe the odd stalactite (though I only got hit by a stalactite once throughout the whole fight), then just keep moving around to hit him once you've caught up to him. If you're moving around enough, you'll also avoid the tracking lasers. If he crashes and stops moving, immediately switch to human Link and hit him with a fire arrow; he gets back up too quickly for bombs to be effective. I bit him in only one or two in-game hours; maybe three.

Don't take this as me saying that Goht is easy though; if someone were going in with no knowledge of Majora's Mask, then Goht would be pretty challenging. I think the appeal of these boss fights in the original version of Majora's Mask is not so much that they're hard or anything like that, but that they're engaging and versatile. Odolwa is a very frenetic opponent that mirrors Link in some ways, and there's no clear pattern for beating him (at least not in the N64 version); so it really is a fight of responding to what he's doing and either looking for an opening or creating one yourself. With Goht, you pursue him via rolling as Goron Link, he starts off just kicking rocks behind him, and as he takes more damage, he tosses out more and more attacks, so the fight just keeps ramping up. Plus, neither of these bosses have weaknesses; a hit anywhere does damage, so the challenge (and the fun) is figuring out the best way to hit them in the first place without letting them hit you. I can't think of any other Zelda game that does this with the main bosses; normally you see something like this with an Iron Knuckle miniboss or something like that if you ever see it at all.

In short: they highlight the difference between challenge and difficulty, but in a positive way: they challenge you on your ingenuity and making use of the mechanics available without being too difficult. 

Of course, Gyorg and Twinmold could prove me completely wrong.

Anyway, I will be doing the goron race tomorrow to get the gilded sword, and then it's off to the ranch to stop aliens from stealing cattle and then keep evil Luigis from destroying a cart full of milk bottles. Isn't it (genuinely) fun just how weird almost every part of Majora's Mask sounds both in and out of context?