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Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)


FionordeQuester
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9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

No; the N64 version speeds up the first cycle as well; it has nothing to do with the inverted song of time. I didn't time it, but I do have my clock beside me when I'm playing the game, so I know the first cycle is sped up. You can also tell by how quickly the postman moves on the first cycle compared to other cycles, as, when I was determining what time I could play the postman's minigame after I got the bunny hood, I followed him around on the First Day with the flow of time being normal. He's slower than he was on the first cycle.

Also, the Zelda wiki says that the first cycle is faster than normal in all versions, and that it's actually 1.66 times faster than a normal cycle because each in-game hour on the first cycle is 27 real-life seconds rather than 45.

...Huh.  You're right.  Curse you, Zeldaspeedruns.com!  You lied to me!

https://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/mm3d/knowledge/remake-changes!

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I was more making a humorous reference, and I'm sure even Nerrel would say he was exaggerating for comedic effect and to illustrate a point.

Ah.  Whoops!

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, because an unrelated plummet, pause & un-pause crashed the game last time I went through the dungeon, I decided to play it safe and use the Deku Link method rather than try leaping towards it. I do feel like double-checking if the ledge can be grabbed; it's not that I don't trust you or anything like that; it's just better if two people check because one might be wrong.

Oh, please do!  I don't wanna have to correct myself again 😄 !

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I will say that, normally throughout the video, he'd make a point by showing how it worked in the N64 version, so in retrospect, it is a bit odd that he didn't show himself reaching the ledge in the N64 version.

The video'll be up in about 53 minutes (I have less than a MB of upload speed), so you'll be able to see, then.  Could be I messed up...but I doubt it.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

As for the Gerudo pictures... okay. As for Tingle pictures, I couldn't figure out how to get a picture of Tingle without leaving the swamp and rendering the picture unacceptable to the swamp tour guide, so I took a picture of the Deku King; doing that instead rewards the same piece of heart.

A right pain, it is.  But yeah, it's good they gave you  multiple options, at least.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I heard the 3DS version swapped the extended magic meter around with Woodfall Temple's reward, which strikes me as an odd and unnecessary change; I can't imagine anything between Woodfall and Snowhead that's made easier by having twice as much magic, the loss of the Great Spin Attack until clearing Snowhead is quite a loss since I found it rather useful, and making the Great Fairy reward a magic meter for two Great Fairies in a row just seems like it would lead at least one person unfamiliar with the game to think that all the Great Fairy rewards are magic meters. Again; it's not a change I'd automatically call bad; it just strikes me as odd and unnecessary. I'm going to guess that it came about from playtesting Snowhead and noticing that you have to use fire arrows, the lens of truth, and Goron rolling (which all consume magic), but Snowhead practically showers the player with mana refills, so you never really risk running out of mana. If you do run out, just go to the next room, smash some jars or some piles of snow, and then go back where you left.

If I had to guess, it's the color of the fairies.  The Fairy of Power (Spin Attack) fairies are green, whereas the Fairy of Wisdom fairies (the Double Magic meter) are pink.  Maybe they wanted the green fairies in the forest dungeon?  That, and more magic. 

Yes, they didn't just swap the rewards—they swapped the fairies themselves.  N64 Snowhead had green fairies, 3DS Snowhead has pink fairies.  Gamecube didn't change that, right?

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, I won't be needing that fast way to defeat Goht; I already bested him rather quickly using the Goron rolling method. Sticking to the inside line (i.e. to the left of Goht) enables you to avoid all his attacks that he makes while you're catching up to him except maybe the odd stalactite (though I only got hit by a stalactite once throughout the whole fight), then just keep moving around to hit him once you've caught up to him. If you're moving around enough, you'll also avoid the tracking lasers. If he crashes and stops moving, immediately switch to human Link and hit him with a fire arrow; he gets back up too quickly for bombs to be effective. I bit him in only one or two in-game hours; maybe three.

Cool!  Good job!

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

With Goht, you pursue him via rolling as Goron Link, he starts off just kicking rocks behind him, and as he takes more damage, he tosses out more and more attacks, so the fight just keeps ramping up. Plus, neither of these bosses have weaknesses; a hit anywhere does damage, so the challenge (and the fun) is figuring out the best way to hit them in the first place without letting them hit you. I can't think of any other Zelda game that does this with the main bosses; normally you see something like this with an Iron Knuckle miniboss or something like that if you ever see it at all.

That's exactly how he works in 3DS as well.  He's the least changed boss out of all of them. 

As for the bosses...yeah, they remind me of how they used to be in "A Link to the Past" and earlier.  Significantly less structured, and significantly harder.  OoT was the first game to really lean into the "puzzle boss" angle—perhaps because they were worried that Link would be too slow, and the camera wouldn't be able to handle it.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

In short: they highlight the difference between challenge and difficulty, but in a positive way: they challenge you on your ingenuity and making use of the mechanics available without being too difficult.  Of course, Gyorg and Twinmold could prove me completely wrong.

Eh, Gyorg is alright.  A little plain, but alright.  Twinmold's kinda janky though...that said, the blue worm has a weakness to Fire Arrows, and the red worm has a weakness to Ice Arrows.  4 shots from each will slay them, which I didn't know at the time.  Hope you have a better time than I did!

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, I will be doing the goron race tomorrow to get the gilded sword, and then it's off to the ranch to stop aliens from stealing cattle and then keep evil Luigis from destroying a cart full of milk bottles. Isn't it (genuinely) fun just how weird almost every part of Majora's Mask sounds both in and out of context?

Indeed!

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Anyway, here we go: 

You know, everything till now was explainable by "Nerrel stunk at the game, bought into hype, and was too impatient"... Now I'm wondering how much N64 he actually played.

Edited by FionordeQuester
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4 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

(1) ...Huh.  You're right.  Curse you, Zeldaspeedruns.com!  You lied to me!

https://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/mm3d/knowledge/remake-changes!

(2) Ah.  Whoops!

(3) Oh, please do!  I don't wanna have to correct myself again 😄 !

(4) The video'll be up in about 53 minutes (I have less than a MB of upload speed), so you'll be able to see, then.  Could be I messed up...but I doubt it.

(5) A right pain, it is.  But yeah, it's good they gave you  multiple options, at least.

(6) If I had to guess, it's the color of the fairies.  The Fairy of Power (Spin Attack) fairies are green, whereas the Fairy of Wisdom fairies (the Double Magic meter) are pink.  Maybe they wanted the green fairies in the forest dungeon?  That, and more magic. 

Yes, they didn't just swap the rewards—they swapped the fairies themselves.  N64 Snowhead had green fairies, 3DS Snowhead has pink fairies.  Gamecube didn't change that, right?

(7) Cool!  Good job!

(8) That's exactly how he works in 3DS as well.  He's the least changed boss out of all of them. 

As for the bosses...yeah, they remind me of how they used to be in "A Link to the Past" and earlier.  Significantly less structured, and significantly harder.  OoT was the first game to really lean into the "puzzle boss" angle—perhaps because they were worried that Link would be too slow, and the camera wouldn't be able to handle it.

(9) Eh, Gyorg is alright.  A little plain, but alright.  Twinmold's kinda janky though...that said, the blue worm has a weakness to Fire Arrows, and the red worm has a weakness to Ice Arrows.  4 shots from each will slay them, which I didn't know at the time.  Hope you have a better time than I did!

(10) Indeed!

(1) Rather funny that a speedrunning site would get something like timing wrong.

(2) Okay.

(3) Sure, though it'll have to be in a different cycle from one where I do the Goron race, since it requires doing almost the whole dungeon all over again.

(4) I see.

(5) I see. How did you manage to take the picture?

(6) I doubt the reason was just an aesthetic change, otherwise they could've easily changed the fairies without changing the rewards. Also, you got the fairy colors the wrong way around: Fairy of Power fairies are pink and Fairy of Wisdom fairies are green, though I suspect you simply made a typo, as you go on to say, "Maybe they [swapped the Woodfall and Snowhead fairies because they] wanted the green fairies in the forest dungeon?" As I said, I suspect it was the more magic thing, despite both the inside and outside of Snowhead Temple showering the player with mana refills.

No; GameCube had it that Snowhead had green fairies and Woodfall had pink fairies.

(7) Thanks.

(8) I see, though doesn't a huge eyeball pop out of his back in the 3DS version whenever he crashes; an eye that's then meant to be shot with fire arrows? In the N64 version, if he crashes, you just shoot Goht with a fire arrow, and you can maybe shoot one before he gets up and resumes his run. The bulk of the damage is done through Goron Link.

I haven't played A Link to the Past, though I have played all of Link's Awakening and bits of the first two games. Bosses having weakpoints and stuff like that is a very early thing in Zelda; I'd hardly say that Ocarina of Time was the first to lean into the puzzle boss angle. Throwing a bomb into a big dodongo's mouth, for instance, is as early as the first Zelda game. For another example, tennis bosses are as early as A Link to the Past.

(9) Well, Gyorg's next. That Twinmold thing sounds interesting, though it's probably easier to just use the Giant's Mask.

(10) Okay.

8 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

You know, everything up till now was explainable by "Nerrel stunk at the game, bought into hype, and was too impatient"... Now I'm starting to wonder how much N64 he actually played.

You know; I don't really like when people jump to say stuff like that; especially jumping to accuse the other of stinking at the game and stuff like that. At most, you've disproven four things that he said; at least two of which were easily missable content:

It's easy, given how Odolwa was restructured in the 3DS version, with him using his block a lot more and hits not doing anything if he blocks even if you aren't hitting the shield, him now having an eyeball weakpoint on his head, and there being a lot more Deku Flowers in the room, to try all the old methods for fighting Odolwa, fail due to those new things, and come away thinking that all the old attacks were taken away. Oh, and I'm going by your footage and statements, along with Zelda Wiki's, when listing those changes. And if you disagree with him about giving a new, easy method being bad; he's not wrong for having the viewpoint that it's bad; just as you're not wrong for having the viewpoint that it isn't bad.

It's easy, if one played the N64 version and never found out about leaping onto that platform from the bridge to get the stray fairy, to try a method that, to one's recollection, worked in the N64 version, find that it doesn't work in the 3DS version, and come away thinking that the Deku Flower option is the only one remaining.

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1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

(1) Rather funny that a speedrunning site would get something like timing wrong.

Yeah, the 3D section is horribly outdated.  I knew that going in but...I kinda assumed they'd get that basic thing right.

Just goes to show the importance of always double-checking, eh?  

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

(3) Sure, though it'll have to be in a different cycle from one where I do the Goron race, since it requires doing almost the whole dungeon all over again.

The way I did it was that I went to the bridge room with the Freezards, went up the stairs into the room with the invisible platforms, then just rolled up to the correct spot from there.  You can get there without any keys, thankfully.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

(5) I see. How did you manage to take the picture?

In 3D, I just took the picture in Great Bay.  Had his face in the center of the camera and everything.  But in N64, I had to take his picture in the "Road to Southern Swamp" screen.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

(6) I doubt the reason was just an aesthetic change, otherwise they could've easily changed the fairies without changing the rewards. Also, you got the fairy colors the wrong way around: Fairy of Power fairies are pink and Fairy of Wisdom fairies are green, though I suspect you simply made a typo, as you go on to say, "Maybe they [swapped the Woodfall and Snowhead fairies because they] wanted the green fairies in the forest dungeon?" As I said, I suspect it was the more magic thing, despite both the inside and outside of Snowhead Temple showering the player with mana refills.

Yeah, it was a typo.  And yeah, I'm thinking it was both.  A slight bone towards players that'd be using magic a lot, and just a nice aesthetic change on the side.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

No; GameCube had it that Snowhead had green fairies and Woodfall had pink fairies.

Cool.  That's what I thought.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

( 8 I see, though doesn't a huge eyeball pop out of his back in the 3DS version whenever he crashes; an eye that's then meant to be shot with fire arrows? In the N64 version, if he crashes, you just shoot Goht with a fire arrow, and you can maybe shoot one before he gets up and resumes his run. The bulk of the damage is done through Goron Link.

It does, but that's mostly a visual change.  The only change, gameplay wise, was that Goht has a much less exploitable AI.  In N64, you could just get him to stand still and get showered in arrows, like so:

You CAN still shoot him down with arrows in 3DS, he just doesn't stop like he does in N64.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I haven't played A Link to the Past, though I have played all of Link's Awakening and bits of the first two games. Bosses having weakpoints and stuff like that is a very early thing in Zelda; I'd hardly say that Ocarina of Time was the first to lean into the puzzle boss angle. Throwing a bomb into a big dodongo's mouth, for instance, is as early as the first Zelda game. For another example, tennis bosses are as early as A Link to the Past.

Mmm...yeah, Link's Awakening is probably the first to really emphasize the puzzle boss aspect, now that you bring that game up.

The other three...I mean, they've got the basic "weak to X and Y items", but they're significantly more chaotic.  Much more reliant on your skill, it seems to me, than later games—especially the 3D ones.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

You know; I don't really like when people jump to say stuff like that; especially jumping to accuse the other of stinking at the game and stuff like that. At most, you've disproven four things that he said; at least two of which were easily missable content:

I probably am being hasty, you're right... But like, how does one misremember something like that?  "I grabbed this fairy via the ledge when I play N64", when it turns out it was never grabbable at all?  And at the very least, why not verify it first?

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

It's easy, given how Odolwa was restructured in the 3DS version, with him using his block a lot more and hits not doing anything if he blocks even if you aren't hitting the shield, him now having an eyeball weakpoint on his head, and there being a lot more Deku Flowers in the room, to try all the old methods for fighting Odolwa, fail due to those new things, and come away thinking that all the old attacks were taken away. Oh, and I'm going by your footage and statements, along with Zelda Wiki's, when listing those changes. And if you disagree with him about giving a new, easy method being bad; he's not wrong for having the viewpoint that it's bad; just as you're not wrong for having the viewpoint that it isn't bad.

Right.  I'll leave it at that.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

It's easy, if one played the N64 version and never found out about leaping onto that platform from the bridge to get the stray fairy, to try a method that, to one's recollection, worked in the N64 version, find that it doesn't work in the 3DS version, and come away thinking that the Deku Flower option is the only one remaining.

But that's the whole problem right there—even being charitable, it's clear he didn't fact check everything first, nor did he experiment with the 3DS for that long.  I mean, part of the point of me playing through both versions is precisely because I didn't want to make errors like that...that's why I was able to correct the few I did.  He's a content creator with more than 100k subs—yet it doesn't look like he's being as diligent as I am.

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In any case, would you feel better if I said Nerrel "played like a newbie"?  "Made newbie mistakes"?  "Played poorly"?  I'll do that, if you want—what I was trying to say was that he was unfamiliar with 3D's mechanics, did poorly as a result...and came away thinking the game was at fault, not himself.

In other words, he did the exact same thing he accused Nintendo's play-testers of doing.

Edited by FionordeQuester
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11 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

It's actually only the 3DS version that speeds up the Day 1 Cycle—making time move at 1.5x speed instead of regular speed.  Unless you meant that you don't have the ISoT yet, and therefore it's sped up?  The meaning is ambiguous, so I decided to explain that just to be safe 😛 .

Oh, they're not so bad.  You barely notice them really, apart from the Kamaro's Dance cutscene.  Honestly though, I didn't have a problem even with that.  It just looked to me like the kid saw something cool going on, and decided he wanted to dance too!

I am glad you brought up Nerrel, though.  I visited Snowhead yesterday, and...

Oh, and the ledge was never grabbable—I checked that myself as well.  Might even update the video with that.

And even if someone has trouble with that jump, the Bunny Hood should let you do it from the exact Angle Nerrel used. I noticed that immediately when watching his video. And this point you could probably make a pretty popular response video by compiling all this misinformation into one video comparing his misinformation with your tests.

11 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

But, speaking of screw-ups, I was wrong regarding the Gerudo pirates pictos.  The "I need a shot of their face!" text DOES still exist...It's just that the game's a bit hazy on what exactly counts as a "face".  If I had to guess, it's a measure of "distance".  Otherwise, I'm at a loss as to why the following examples worked:

N64 EXAMPLE (The Fisherman accepted this, even though it's the back of her head!):

Legend.png

3DS EXAMPLES (The Fisherman accepted both of these!):

gerudopicto.png gerudopicto2.png

I am, however, right about the Tingle pic requirements!  Double checked that real quick as well!

Damn that's one thirsty fishermen if he's accepting clothed feet XD

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8 hours ago, Jotari said:

And even if someone has trouble with that jump, the Bunny Hood should let you do it from the exact Angle Nerrel used. I noticed that immediately when watching his video. And this point you could probably make a pretty popular response video by compiling all this misinformation into one video comparing his misinformation with your tests.

But Nerrel did have the bunny hood on when he tried to jump to the alcove from the central pillar. He shows his failed attempt in the 3DS version at 19:26 - 19:32 in his video.

 

16 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

I probably am being hasty, you're right... But like, how does one misremember something like that?  "I grabbed this fairy via the ledge when I play N64", when it turns out it was never grabbable at all?  And at the very least, why not verify it first?

Right.  I'll leave it at that.

But that's the whole problem right there—even being charitable, it's clear he didn't fact check everything first, nor did he experiment with the 3DS for that long.  I mean, part of the point of me playing through both versions is precisely because I didn't want to make errors like that...that's why I was able to correct the few I did.  He's a content creator with more than 100k subs—yet it doesn't look like he's being as diligent as I am.

It's not just the hastiness (though that certainly is a part of it) but it also conveys a level of perceived superiority & being insufferable, as well as attacking the person rather than the arguments.

As for diligence, diligence is indeed important. However, people are human; small mistakes do happen and things sometimes get overlooked. You can be the most thorough person in the world and still mess up. A couple of mistakes does not automatically make a whole review bad or mean that the person must be an idiot at the game or anything like that.

For an example, I found several things wrong with Matthewmatosis' review of Ocarina of Time (which I will put in a quote below):

Quote

 

Just a few things he got wrong include the following:

1. He says that the origin story of Hyrule and the Triforce could've been substituted with any other origin story without substantially changing the plot; I disagree because the origin story they went with foreshadows the reveal that the Triforce will split into three pieces and that Link, Zelda and Ganon will each end up with a particular piece.

2. He complains about the Gerudo Hideout being made into a frustrating series of trial-&-error due to the limited camera and tight corridors. He does this while showing the only tricky indoor section (and the last section no less) and he evidently doesn't know that navigating the whole hideout can be made trivial by using the bow & arrows to knock out the guards.

3. He points out that the Gerudo are entirely women except for Ganondorf and speculates about how they reproduce, not knowing that a gossip stone mentions that the Gerudo go to Castle Town to obtain "boyfriends".

4. He mentions a playthrough where he ran out of magic during the fight with Ganondorf and criticizes the game for not providing a way to keep fighting Ganondorf, not knowing that there are dozen of jars with hearts, arrows and mana refills inside them at the bottom of the boss room.

Does this mean I think he must be terrible at playing Ocarina of Time or wonder if he actually played the game? Do I think his review is automatically garbage? No. The rest of the review is still really good (especially when he points out that the real problem with the Water Temple was never difficulty, but tedium); the majority of his points are clear and accurate and he does show that he thoroughly understands the game outside of a couple of smaller areas. I'd still recommend the review to people; just with a couple of qualifiers.

 

11 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

In any case, would you feel better if I said Nerrel "played like a newbie"?  "Made newbie mistakes"?  "Played poorly"?  I'll do that, if you want—what I was trying to say was that he was unfamiliar with 3D's mechanics, did poorly as a result...and came away thinking the game was at fault, not himself.

In other words, he did the exact same thing he accused Nintendo's play-testers of doing.

No, I would not; all that still sounds like jumping to conclusions and being insufferable (except maybe the "made newbie mistakes" one; that one sounds the least insufferable out of a set of insufferable remarks).

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11 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

But Nerrel did have the bunny hood on when he tried to jump to the alcove from the central pillar. He shows his failed attempt in the 3DS version at 19:26 - 19:32 in his video.

Oh wow, did he? That's weird, I outright remember thinking he should have tried with the bunny hood while watching the video. Guess it was just a blind spot in my eye or something.

 

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26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh wow, did he? That's weird, I outright remember thinking he should have tried with the bunny hood while watching the video. Guess it was just a blind spot in my eye or something.

Yeah; he did have the bunny hood on. 

 

Anyway, what did you think about the point I made to @FionordeQuester about not judging an entire review/reviewer based on only a small handful of smaller points being wrong, and the example I used with Matthewmatosis' Ocarina of Time review?

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

It's not just the hastiness (though that certainly is a part of it) but it also conveys a level of perceived superiority & being insufferable, as well as attacking the person rather than the arguments.

A person "being bad" at an activity isn't a value statement of their character, in my mind—it just means they need more practice.  I'm not saying I'm smarter than he is—I'm saying that I think he should have taken more time to explore the 3DS version before criticizing it.  Is that fair?

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

As for diligence, diligence is indeed important. However, people are human; small mistakes do happen and things sometimes get overlooked. You can be the most thorough person in the world and still mess up. A couple of mistakes does not automatically make a whole review bad or mean that the person must be an idiot at the game or anything like that...

Right...which is why most of the reviewers I enjoy will have segments in their videos, or even follow-up videos, highlighting the things they were wrong about, or things they know could use clarifying.  Linkara is always doing that.  Nostalgia Critic had those "Top 10 ****-up Lists" (whatever his other faults may have been), and etc.

The other thing is, a lot of Nerrel's larger points are matters of opinion—not things I can really "disprove" like I can with the "small" stuff.  That's fine, except for how sensationalized and hyperbolic his language is.  That's great for an entertaining video—it is NOT great for an actual serious comparison, nor should people build their arguments on it.  Yet, that's exactly what some do, and it's frustrating.

So, if it were sensationalized and hyperbolic...but otherwise 100% right, then it's "fair enough".  If it were incorrect on some factual stuff, but had no spin to it at all...then there's not much to really get mad about.  Nerrel's problem is that his video is both...which makes it a pretty easy target for me to criticize.  I'm not even done with all the videos yet, either—they're just gonna take longer, is all.

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

For an example, I found several things wrong with Matthewmatosis' review of Ocarina of Time (which I will put in a quote below):

Did he acknowledge these errors after the fact, out of curiosity?

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Does this mean I think he must be terrible at playing Ocarina of Time or wonder if he actually played the game? Do I think his review is automatically garbage? No. The rest of the review is still really good (especially when he points out that the real problem with the Water Temple was never difficulty, but tedium); the majority of his points are clear and accurate and he does show that he thoroughly understands the game outside of a couple of smaller areas. I'd still recommend the review to people; just with a couple of qualifiers.

Here's the thing—I'm going to guess that his review of OoT was pretty positive, right?  If so, there's no real harm to getting a couple of things wrong—people'll give the game a try.

negative review, however, has the chance to turn people away for good.  It harms that bit of media, and the people who produced it.  Sometimes they deserve it, oftentimes they don't.  You need to be way more careful criticizing someone or something than you do praising it.  Probably more careful than even I've been, if we're being honest.

As things are now, I see this game being trashed for problems that either don't exist, or are exaggerated to the point of absurdity.   It's bad enough, and prevalent enough, that it violates my sense of justice—hence, I'm a bit angry about it all.  And, having watched Nerrel's video multiple times, I know that he wasn't as careful as he should've been.

TL;DR, you praise something, it's whatever.  You trash something, you'd better be certain you're absolutely right about what you're saying.  More certain than I've been, in fact.

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

No, I would not; all that still sounds like jumping to conclusions and being insufferable (except maybe the "made newbie mistakes" one; that one sounds the least insufferable out of a set of insufferable remarks).

Then I'm at a loss.  How would you phrase what I was trying to say?  What's the polite way of saying "he made newbie mistakes, and blamed the game for it"?

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@FionordeQuester You saying that a negative review needs to be extra careful because a flawed negative review can steer people away from a good game can easily be countered by pointing out that a flawed positive review, by that logic, can steer people towards spending money on a bad game. The fact is that neither a positive review, a mixed/neutral review, or a negative review needs to be any more or less careful than the others, and none of them should be held to a standard to which you don't hold the other ones. Honestly, I'm sick and tired of this trend in today's society of borderline-vilifying negative reviews or holding them to a double-standard compared to positive reviews.

In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of review Matthewmatosis gave for Ocarina of Time for my example to work.

As for whether or not Matthewmatosis acknowledged them after the fact, from what I can gather... no; he doesn't seem to do much of anything really outside of posting the occasional video.

 

4 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Then I'm at a loss.  How would you phrase what I was trying to say?  What's the polite way of saying "he made newbie mistakes, and blamed the game for it"?

Here's a thought; maybe it's not the phrasing, but the assertion itself. But, if you really wanted to phrase it in such a way that isn't insufferable, how about something like, "He didn't explore this [bit of the gameplay] as much as he should've", "He overlooked [these things here and there]", etc.? Phrase it in terms of what you actually can reasonably extrapolate.

 

Anyway, in other news, I just got the gilded sword, so, now I'll be on my way to Romani Ranch. Oh, great... a whole night of mounted archery against moving targets coming in from almost all directions... with limited ammo... and stick-only aiming... Please tell me that it's actually a lot easier and less frustrating than it sounds (but only if that's actually true).

Going back to the gilded sword stuff, much to my surprise, I actually found delivering delivering the powder keg to the boulder that's blocking the Goron Racetrack far more difficult, tedious, frustrating and time-consuming than the actual Goron Race itself; not that either one was actually particularly hard. I can see how the Goron Race would easily be very annoying though: all those other Gorons deliberately ramming into you to slow you down are a real pain. But, by staying close without going into first place too soon, only going up ramps when in spike mode for the speed boost, avoiding getting hit by the other Gorons as much as possible, and hugging the inside of the final turn, I was narrowly able to secure 1st place on my second attempt.

Did the 3DS version do anything to improve the Goron Race, such as removing the rubber-banding on the Gorons? I remember Mario 64 DS removed a lot of the rubber-banding on the penguin slide race, and that was a lot better than the 64 version: it was still fun and reasonably challenging, and I was able to win by a very wide margin by veering off the edge and making a very risky leap onto a lower part of the track; something that, when I tried it in the 64 version, resulted in the penguin pulling ahead of me and securing victory due to the rubber-banding.

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15 hours ago, Jotari said:

And even if someone has trouble with that jump, the Bunny Hood should let you do it from the exact Angle Nerrel used. I noticed that immediately when watching his video. A[t] this point you could probably make a pretty popular response video by compiling all this misinformation into one video comparing his misinformation with your tests.

Oof, that'd be a project.  Would have to have SFX, actual editing, a thumbnail...all that stuff.  Maybe I'll do that at some point—not for a while, though.

19 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

@FionordeQuester You saying that a negative review needs to be extra careful because a flawed negative review can steer people away from a good game can easily be countered by pointing out that a flawed positive review, by that logic, can steer people towards spending money on a bad game... In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of review Matthewmatosis gave for Ocarina of Time for my example to work.

Good point...

Then yes, Mathewmatosis should have double-checked his facts before posting his video, just like Nerrel should have.  That said, if it was a positive review anyway, then those little boo-boos are mostly harmless, IMO.  They counter-act his main narrative, rather than enhancing it...so if anything, excising those points would've made him and OoT look even better.

Quote

Here's a thought; maybe it's not the phrasing, but the assertion itself. But, if you really wanted to phrase it in such a way that isn't insufferable, how about something like, "He didn't explore this [bit of the gameplay] as much as he should've", "He overlooked [these things here and there]", etc.? Phrase it in terms of what you actually can reasonably extrapolate.

Sure.  If I take Jotari up on his idea, I'll be sure to phrase it like that—I'll even put "I don't think" to soften the statement even more.

Quote

Anyway, in other news, I just got the gilded sword, so, now I'll be on my way to Romani Ranch. Oh, great... a whole night of mounted archery against moving targets coming in from almost all directions... with limited ammo... and stick-only aiming... Please tell me that it's actually a lot easier and less frustrating than it sounds (but only if that's actually true).

It's easy enough, don't worry.  The aliens themselves drop ammunition, and are pretty sluggish besides.  Just make sure you get the ones that appear behind the shed—they're easy to overlook.

Quote

But, by staying close without going into first place too soon, only going up ramps when in spike mode for the speed boost, avoiding getting hit by the other Gorons as much as possible, and hugging the inside of the final turn, I was narrowly able to secure 1st place on my second attempt.

Nice!

Quote

Did the 3DS version do anything to improve the Goron Race, such as removing the rubber-banding on the Gorons? I remember Mario 64 DS removed a lot of the rubber-banding on the penguin slide race, and that was a lot better than the 64 version: it was still fun and reasonably challenging, and I was able to win by a very wide margin by veering off the edge and making a very risky leap onto a lower part of the track; something that, when I tried it in the 64 version, resulted in the penguin pulling ahead of me and securing victory due to the rubber-banding.

Apart from the improved camera, no.  It's just as hard as it was before.

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2 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Good point...

Then yes, Mathewmatosis should have double-checked his facts before posting his video, just like Nerrel should have.  That said, if it was a positive review anyway, then those little boo-boos are mostly harmless, IMO.  They counter-act his main narrative, rather than enhancing it...so if anything, excising those points would've made him and OoT look even better.

Sure.  If I take Jotari up on his idea, I'll be sure to phrase it like that—I'll even put "I don't think" to soften the statement even more.

It's easy enough, don't worry.  The aliens themselves drop ammunition, and are pretty sluggish besides.  Just make sure you get the ones that appear behind the shed—they're easy to overlook.

Nice!

Apart from the improved camera, no.  It's just as hard as it was before.

Thanks for acknowledging that point.

Matthewmatosis' reviews aren't strictly positive or negative. How his videos work is that, if he labels it a "review", he will discuss the good and the bad, then give his overall view of the game at the end, and it's rarely as simple as just "the game's good" or "the game's bad". If it's labelled a "critique", then he will focus purely on the negative in order to make a point (he did this for Bioshock Infinite and Dark Souls 2 among others). If he titles it "Recommending [x]" then he's mainly going to talk about the good. If it's titled "A Case Study" then, while mainly looking into the game itself, he's using it in order to talk about something involving the wider games industry (he did this for God of War 2018).

Okay. I'm giving you this advice partly because of how I feel about responding to another person's arguments, and partly because a lot of people on YouTube make a name for themselves by making a response video to a bigger name, and you have to be really careful or you can just come across as salty and/or petty. I've seen it happen, though usually to videos that genuinely were mean-spirited, salty and petty. But that's all the more reason to make sure your video can't get lumped in with those ones.

I see. Thanks for telling me about the ones that appear behind the shed. I read somewhere that the dog will bark in the direction of the nearest alien. Is that actually all that useful? I can't imagine I will often be able to see where the dog is barking.

Thanks.

I see. That makes a lot of sense. In hindsight, I'm honestly rather surprised about where the 3DS version decided to make/not make changes: I've heard plenty about stuff like the Stone Tower climb and the Goron Race, and yet those places were left intact. That's especially jarring when you consider that the one area where they made significant gameplay changes in Ocarina of Time 3D was the most infamous place in the entire game: the Water Temple.

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6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks for acknowledging that point.

Any time.

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Matthewmatosis' reviews aren't strictly positive or negative. How his videos work is that, if he labels it a "review", he will discuss the good and the bad, then give his overall view of the game at the end, and it's rarely as simple as just "the game's good" or "the game's bad". If it's labelled a "critique", then he will focus purely on the negative in order to make a point (he did this for Bioshock Infinite and Dark Souls 2 among others). If he titles it "Recommending [x]" then he's mainly going to talk about the good. If it's titled "A Case Study" then, while mainly looking into the game itself, he's using it in order to talk about something involving the wider games industry (he did this for God of War 2018).

Huh...sounds like an interesting man to watch!

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Okay. I'm giving you this advice partly because of how I feel about responding to another person's arguments, and partly because a lot of people on YouTube make a name for themselves by making a response video to a bigger name, and you have to be really careful or you can just come across as salty and/or petty. I've seen it happen, though usually to videos that genuinely were mean-spirited, salty and petty. But that's all the more reason to make sure your video can't get lumped in with those ones.

Thank you!  Don't ever hesitate to tell me anything else you think of, alright?

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I read somewhere that the dog will bark in the direction of the nearest alien. Is that actually all that useful? 

I never did. 

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. That makes a lot of sense. In hindsight, I'm honestly rather surprised about where the 3DS version decided to make/not make changes: I've heard plenty about stuff like the Stone Tower climb and the Goron Race, and yet those places were left intact. That's especially jarring when you consider that the one area where they made significant gameplay changes in Ocarina of Time 3D was the most infamous place in the entire game: the Water Temple.

It seems to me that most of the changes were to things tied to progressing the story.  All the optional stuff was mostly untouched, apart from a few exceptions, and the 7th Bottle quest.

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2 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Huh...sounds like an interesting man to watch!

Thank you!  Don't ever hesitate to tell me anything else you think of, alright?

I never did. 

It seems to me that most of the changes were to things tied to progressing the story.  All the optional stuff was mostly untouched, apart from a few exceptions, and the 7th Bottle quest.

He is; he makes a lot of really good videos. One of his most notable videos for a long time was his Dark Souls 2 critique, as it was one of the earlier reviews to highlight a lot of the game's problems, and because it was later referenced in another popular YouTuber's really bad Dark Souls 2 defense video (because I believe that other YouTuber can and has made some really good videos and that their Dark Souls 2 defense video was simply not their finest hour, for that YouTuber's sake, I am not going to say HBomberguy's youtube channel name). But, now, his most famous video is probably his God of War 2018 Case Study; in fact, the game's developers even shared it on Twitter despite (or rather because of) it really giving no quarter in criticizing the game and highlighting its flaws; in fact, in the tweet, they thanked him for the constructive criticism and told him to keep up the good work.

Okay; I won't. Here's another one: a good thing to do would be to point out a couple of areas where you agree with him to make it clear that you're not just making the video because he didn't like the remake and you did.

I see. Yeah; I only once or twice noticed what the dog was barking at; more often I was checking the mini-map. Oh, yeah; I just the Romani and Cremia sidequests; more on that in another paragraph.

I see. That said, the Stone Tower climb is mandatory.

 

So, as I was saying about the Romani and Cremia sidequests: the alien one seemed a bit daunting at first, but once I realized where all the respawn points were and figured out a good circular route, it became a lot easier. It was still a bit frantic though, and I wasn't looking at the in-game clock, so sunrise took me by surprise.

As for protecting Cremia's wagon, that was rather straightforward and over in a heartbeat. My one criticism would be that it was unclear how much hitting them with arrows was actually doing to fend them off. I mean; they never hit any of the milk bottles, but my arrows seemed to have no effect on when they got close to the wagon, when they'd have to back off, etc., and without that clarity, it became really unclear which one to hit at what time. Of course, I showered them with enough arrows that it didn't matter, and afterwards their doctor probably addressed them as "Porcupine Gorman the Elder and Porcupine Gorman the Younger." But that lack of clarity was a bit annoying.

 

Anyway; now I have three bottles; my plan for what to do next is to do part of the Anju and Kafei sidequest to get a fourth bottle and the Keaton Mask, probably race the Gorman Brothers for the Garo Mask (though I can probably put that off for a little bit... do I need it to get to Sakon's Hideout?), and then head to the Great Bay after getting a heart piece from the keaton.

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9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Okay; I won't. Here's another one: a good thing to do would be to point out a couple of areas where you agree with him to make it clear that you're not just making the video because he didn't like the remake and you did.

Way ahead of you 🙂 !

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. That said, the Stone Tower climb is mandatory.

Oh, it's not so bad.  It's kind of like walking through a bunch of empty space to the Elite 4 in Pokemon R/B/Y.  There's not a heck of a lot going on, but the music, atmosphere, and architecture sets the mood well enough that you don't mind so much.

Not saying cutting out Elegy of Emptiness animations wouldn't have been a good idea though.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway; now I have three bottles; my plan for what to do next is to do part of the Anju and Kafei sidequest to get a fourth bottle and the Keaton Mask, probably race the Gorman Brothers for the Garo Mask (though I can probably put that off for a little bit... do I need it to get to Sakon's Hideout?), and then head to the Great Bay after getting a heart piece from the keaton.

Yes, you need Garo's Mask to get to Sakon's.  Otherwise, you can't Hookshot a tree next to that weird old guy (who himself is on a cliff above Shiro the invisible Stone Mask guy).

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4 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Way ahead of you 🙂 !

Oh, it's not so bad.  It's kind of like walking through a bunch of empty space to the Elite 4 in Pokemon R/B/Y.  There's not a heck of a lot going on, but the music, atmosphere, and architecture sets the mood well enough that you don't mind so much.

Not saying cutting out Elegy of Emptiness animations wouldn't have been a good idea though.

Yes, you need Garo's Mask to get to Sakon's.  Otherwise, you can't Hookshot a tree next to that weird old guy (who himself is on a cliff above Shiro the invisible Stone Mask guy).

Okay.

Okay.

I see. So, I need both the mask and the Hookshot. That makes a lot of sense. Getting to Shiro doesn't require either of those, right? I ask because I remember my brother using the Stone Mask to get through the Pirate Fortress (that's one of the reasons I even remembered proto-Kellam Shiro), and you get the Hookshot in the Pirate Fortress.

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1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. So, I need both the mask and the Hookshot. That makes a lot of sense. Getting to Shiro doesn't require either of those, right? I ask because I remember my brother using the Stone Mask to get through the Pirate Fortress (that's one of the reasons I even remembered proto-Kellam Shiro), and you get the Hookshot in the Pirate Fortress.

That's right!  I go out of my way to visit him, in N64!  Makes getting the pictos way easier!

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15 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

That's right!  I go out of my way to visit him, in N64!  Makes getting the pictos way easier!

I see. Yeah; I figured that the Stone Mask would make getting photos easier.

By the way, how did Shiro end up in the continent of Ylisse after this game ended, and why did he change his name to Kellam?

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Hmm...you know, Nerrel used footage of the Shiekah Stone in his review to highlight "nuking the game's difficulty from orbit", though he didn't directly mention it by name.  Just a statement that the difficulty was ground to nothing, along with footage from it.

Even so, I've played around with it, and found that it actually isn't nearly as hand-holding as I thought it would be.  In fact, after Clock Town, you're almost never going to see any of its hints unless you've either already attempted the relevant sections times, or after you've already completed it. 

For some examples, It doesn't even tell you to go to Southern Swamp.  The next hint after "Retrieve Your Ocarina" is "Visit the Old Hags", and only after you've entered the Mystery Woods at least once.  It also doesn't tell you how to beat Oldolwa until you've fought him at least once.

As for optional upgrades, it doesn't seem to tell you how to find Heart Pieces and Fairies until after you've beaten the main boss of the relevant places.  For example, it only tells you about two of the seventeen Heart Pieces you could get after receiving the Song of Time (including the one you got on the way to Skull Kid).  It's not till you beat Oldolwa that it tells you about six more—four in the swamp, and two in the "Dodongo Hole" and "Peahat Hole" in Termina Field.

You guys think this warrants further analysis?  Or is it too minor of a point?

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17 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Hmm...you know, Nerrel used footage of the Shiekah Stone in his review to highlight "nuking the game's difficulty from orbit", though he didn't directly mention it by name.  Just a statement that the difficulty was ground to nothing, along with footage from it.

Even so, I've played around with it, and found that it actually isn't nearly as hand-holding as I thought it would be.  In fact, after Clock Town, you're almost never going to see any of its hints unless you've either already attempted the relevant sections times, or after you've already completed it. 

It also doesn't seem to tell you how to find Heart Pieces and Fairies until after you've beaten the main boss of the region.  For example, it only tells you about two of the seventeen Heart Pieces you could get after receiving the Song of Time (including the one you got on the way to Skull Kid).  It's not till you beat Oldolwa that it tells you about six more—four in the swamp, and two in the "Dodongo Hole" and "Peahat Hole" in Termina Field.

You guys think this warrants further analysis?

Meh, people will just look that stuff up online if they want to. So I don't see much issue with it being in the game. And it's easily enough ignored for players who don't want hints.

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1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

Hmm...you know, Nerrel used footage of the Shiekah Stone in his review to highlight "nuking the game's difficulty from orbit", though he didn't directly mention it by name.  Just a statement that the difficulty was ground to nothing, along with footage from it.

Even so, I've played around with it, and found that it actually isn't nearly as hand-holding as I thought it would be.  In fact, after Clock Town, you're almost never going to see any of its hints unless you've either already attempted the relevant sections times, or after you've already completed it. 

For some examples, It doesn't even tell you to go to Southern Swamp.  The next hint after "Retrieve Your Ocarina" is "Visit the Old Hags", and only after you've entered the Mystery Woods at least once.  It also doesn't tell you how to beat Oldolwa until you've fought him at least once.

As for optional upgrades, it doesn't seem to tell you how to find Heart Pieces and Fairies until after you've beaten the main boss of the relevant places.  For example, it only tells you about two of the seventeen Heart Pieces you could get after receiving the Song of Time (including the one you got on the way to Skull Kid).  It's not till you beat Oldolwa that it tells you about six more—four in the swamp, and two in the "Dodongo Hole" and "Peahat Hole" in Termina Field.

You guys think this warrants further analysis?  Or is it too minor of a point?

Him showing Link entering a Sheikah Stone while summing up his point about the difficulty was probably more for visual metaphor than anything else; Nerrel even clarifies in his Ocarina of Time 3D review that he has nothing against adding optional hints like the Sheikah Stones that players who aren't stuck can simply ignore without losing any time.

Personally, I think a better visual metaphor to go alongside "nuked the difficulty from orbit" would've been to use the footage of the moon crashing into Termina.

By the way, where is that "Peahat Hole" in Termina Field? I found the dodongo one and got a piece of heart, but I haven't found that one.

 

In other news, I just completed enough of the Anju and Kafei sidequest to get a fourth bottle and the Keaton Mask, and I'll soon be going to the Great Bay. Going through this sidequest where events happen across all three days made me think a bit more about the three-day system and the save system; mainly that there is just something about starting up the game and it opening with "Dawn of the First Day: 72 Hours Remain" that's rather unique and compelling; each new starting up of the game is the start of a new cycle. You don't really get that from saving at the owl statues (though, don't get me wrong; I'm glad that the owl statues are there as a just-in-case in this version).

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54 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, where is that "Peahat Hole" in Termina Field? I found the dodongo one and got a piece of heart, but I haven't found that one.

It's near the milk road.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's near the milk road.

Ah; thanks. Is it hidden under tall grass or something, as the only hole I found near milk road was one of the ones with Gossip Stones that you play music to for a piece of heart.

 

Anyway, I just unlocked Zora Link. Next time, I will be rescuing the Zora Eggs. Can I just say though: having a Zora point out that Mikau tried to get a bottle from the beavers at the top of the waterfall, only for the top of the waterfall to only be accessible by hookshot (something Mikau didn't have), is a bit cruel. I can only imagine at least one player thinking, "I don't have enough bottles" and trying for a long time find a way up to the waterfall; thinking that it should be accessible using the Zora Mask.

Fortunately, I do have enough bottles; I have four bottles, and since the Zora Eggs are split into four in the pirate fortress and three in pinnacle rock, four bottles should be enough without having to go through the same location more than once.

In any case, Zora swimming is a lot of fun. It's extremely fast while being a lot easier to maneuver than Goron Link or even Epona (who I keep forgetting will set off in the direction she's facing if you tilt the control stick up, rather than turn to where forward is according to the camera). Zora swimming is very intuitive and fun.

Zora Link's combat, however, is a different story. Press b three times for basic combo, or hold b to use the Zora Fins like two boomerangs, or at least that's how it is if you aren't L-targeting anything; if you are L-targeting something, then Zora Link will just do a basic melee attack when you release the b button. Why?! The boomerang in Ocarina of Time got far more mileage out of being used while L-targeting than not, and the only time it was useful in combat was while L-targeting; why is Zora Link's boomerang attack limited to only being able to be used when not targeting anything?! That is unbelievably stupid. It basically means that the only fun combat as Zora Link happens while underwater and swimming at high speed, and that combat drains magic to use! Majora's Mask 3D sped up the Goron combat and unnecessarily crippled the Zora swimming; please tell me if they at least improved the Zora combat by making the boomerang-fin attack actually useful.

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