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Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)


FionordeQuester
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22 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Zora Link's combat, however, is a different story. Press b three times for basic combo, or hold b to use the Zora Fins like two boomerangs, or at least that's how it is if you aren't L-targeting anything; if you are L-targeting something, then Zora Link will just do a basic melee attack when you release the b button.

 

Strange.  I can execute a Boomerang while targeting, on my N64 emulator.  Try it a few more times.  Target, Hold B (Link should punch, then get ready to throw his blades), then release.

It also might have to do with whether his blades are out at the time you press the B Button—that tripped me up a few times.

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2 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Strange.  I can execute a Boomerang while targeting, on my N64 emulator.  Try it a few more times.  Target, Hold B (Link should punch, then get ready to throw his blades), then release.

It also might have to do with whether his blades are out at the time you press the B Button—that tripped me up a few times.

I see. I'll try it again, but I did try it multiple times before, and it looked like his blades were out when I released the button.

Anyway, I once heard that there's a popular fan theory that the dead Zora Mikau (the one that tried to get Lulu's eggs back from the pirates and who becomes the Zora Mask) is the father of the eggs. Have you ever heard this theory before, and if so, what did you think of it?

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18 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. I'll try it again, but I did try it multiple times before, and it looked like his blades were out when I released the button.

Anyway, I once heard that there's a popular fan theory that the dead Zora Mikau (the one that tried to get Lulu's eggs back from the pirates and who becomes the Zora Mask) is the father of the eggs. Have you ever heard this theory before, and if so, what did you think of it?

I hadn't, but it makes sense.  The two were an item, right?

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11 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

I hadn't, but it makes sense.  The two were an item, right?

I have no idea. I haven't interacted with anyone in the Zora Hall yet (I'm going to do that tomorrow while getting a piece of heart that can be obtained from the band's songwriter).

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23 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I have no idea. I haven't interacted with anyone in the Zora Hall yet (I'm going to do that tomorrow while getting a piece of heart that can be obtained from the band's songwriter).

Well, they were—we know for a fact the Zoras feel the same urges as humans, as well (Princess Ruto's attraction to Link, for example).

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More removed/altered hints from Grezzo:

1) Delayed Learning of the "Inverted Song of Time" & "Song of Double Time"

Remember how the Scarecrow was ceaselessly asking if you wanted to learn how to execute these two songs?

Legend.png

Legend.png

Well in 3DS, he doesn't say this until after the 1st Cycle ends.  This turns a hint that was easy to find into one I think most new players would miss.  After all, why would you talk to this guy again?  When his function is to literally waste your time?  Nothing tells you about his new text, after all.

Could be Grezzo wanted those to be more of a secret (to counter-balance the buff Song of Double Time received), could be they thought the Inverted Song of Time was too strong for how easily you got it (hence the nerf), or they just thought it was odd that he was referring to "that strange song" before you even recovered the Ocarina.  Or maybe it's all of the above? 

Regardless, a 3DS newbie is less likely to learn these than a N64 newbie, without outside help.

2) The Monkeys After Healing Koume

In the N64 version, a bunch of monkeys talk about how their friend tried to solve the poison swamp mystery, but got captured in Deku Palace:

Legend.png

But in 3DS, they were relocated to after you rode the Swamp Tourist ride:

removed.png

Presumably, this was to encourage exploration, as now there's nothing but Koume saying she'll reward you to guide you to the Tourist Attraction.  That and the Shiekah Stone, of course.

3) Removed Line of Sight From Deku Guards

In the N64 version, there was a row of white dots emanating from each guard indicating their vision, if you made it nighttime:

Legend.png

But 3DS removed this:

removed.png

Perhaps they believed the white dots utterly trivialized this puzzle?  Or, just looked tacky?

This is in contrast to the moving platforms, where you were required to learn two new skills at once (fighting Deku Scrubs & landing on moving platforms)—and were made to navigate the entire length of the palace again, each time you failed.  That meant that unlike the Deku Guards, there were (relatively) long delays between each attempt.

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@FionordeQuester I quite liked the line-of-sight dots; it was a nice reward for being clever enough to sneak around at night.

Speaking of sneaking around, I just rescued all the zora eggs from the Pirate's Fortress and the eels (and I got a piece of heart from reuniting the seahorses). The Pirate's Fortress was really easy; avoiding the sight of the boats was easy, avoiding mines was easy, the exhaust vents that can suck you out of the base were tedious but easy to avoid, the pirates that you fight were made easy thanks to me remembering their movesets from Ocarina of Time, and the stone mask renders all the stealth completely trivial, to the point where I was tempted to stop using it just for a bit of challenge. But, I decided to keep using the stone mask because it was my reward for going out of my way to explore the bit of Ikana that was made available thanks to Epona.

Speaking of which, I heard that Shiro was moved from the Road to Ikana to the Pirate's Fortress in the remake. I can understand the idea; it theoretically makes it far more likely to find him (though, as Nerrel pointed out, if you don't have magic because you've been using it to navigate the bay more quickly, or in my case in the 64 version fending off the annoying skeletal fish, then you're not seeing him), but that does mean finding him and getting the stone mask at this point in the game is no longer a reward for exploring outside where the game says you need to go; instead, finding him is just a reward for Navi flying near the ladder and the player remembering the Lens of Truth. I guess finding him still a reward, and I can see the point in making it a less obscure reward, but I don't think it was really necessary. If they thought it was too obscure, they could've just added an optional hint in the Great Bay area; maybe a Zora saying something like, "Mikau; that Pirate Fortress looks like it would be really hard to get into; unless you can take out the guards, you'd pretty much have to be unnoticeable. I remember this one human friend of mine who was almost impossible to notice; he could probably get through there easily. But the last time I saw him, he said he was heading to Ikana Canyon."

Anyway, as for retrieving the eggs from the eels, it reminded me of the Mario 64 mission "Can the eel come out to play" and not in a good way; more like a "swimming up to and around the eel is going to be a bit annoying because of the camera; isn't it?" way. That said, it was still really easy.

 

As for Zora Link's combat, I was able to get him to use the boomerang attack while L-targeting. It turns out that I was fighting against my own muscle memory; if you do anything in the moments after releasing b (such as press b again by mistake/reflex), Link will register it as you wanting to punch rather than register the release as wanting to use the boomerang attack, unlike when not L-targeting, where you can't do anything while the boomerangs are in the air so there's no issues of what input it registers.

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Speaking of which, I heard that Shiro was moved from the Road to Ikana to the Pirate's Fortress in the remake. I can understand the idea; it theoretically makes it far more likely to find him (though, as Nerrel pointed out, if you don't have magic because you've been using it to navigate the bay more quickly, or in my case in the 64 version fending off the annoying skeletal fish, then you're not seeing him), but that does mean finding him and getting the stone mask at this point in the game is no longer a reward for exploring outside where the game says you need to go; instead, finding him is just a reward for Navi flying near the ladder and the player remembering the Lens of Truth. I guess finding him still a reward, and I can see the point in making it a less obscure reward, but I don't think it was really necessary. If they thought it was too obscure, they could've just added an optional hint in the Great Bay area; maybe a Zora saying something like, "Mikau; that Pirate Fortress looks like it would be really hard to get into; unless you can take out the guards, you'd pretty much have to be unnoticeable. I remember this one human friend of mine who was almost impossible to notice; he could probably get through there easily. But the last time I saw him, he said he was heading to Ikana Canyon."

Such a comment might feel a bit contrived, but I agree with the overall sentiment so I think I would have preferred a hint rather than changing it to be directly in your path. Of course maybe it didn't even need a hint like that, obscure stuff like the Stone Mask seems exactly like the sort of stuff the Sheikah Stone was designed for. Speaking of the Stone Mask, does anyone think it was a bit of a weird decision to even have the Stone Mask in the game? Ocarina of Time introduced eight masks, the Keaton Mask, the Spooky Mask, the Skull Mask, the Bunny Hood, the Mask of Truth, the Goron Mask, the Zora Mask and...the Gerudo Mask. Five of those eight masks came back for Majora's Mask, and they had a section where you can wear a mask to wander around a Gerudo hide out, and instead of bringing back the Gerudo Mask they introduced a whole new Stone Mask. It just seems like kind of a weird choice. I guess the Stone Mask does also make certain enemies not attack you, so it's not exactly like it was a terrible idea to use the Stone Mask instead of the Gerudo Mask, it's certainly more versatile than a one trick pony, but eh, I kind of want to talk to the Gerudo guards like I could in Ocarina of Time.

 

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4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

 

Such a comment might feel a bit contrived, but I agree with the overall sentiment so I think I would have preferred a hint rather than changing it to be directly in your path. Of course maybe it didn't even need a hint like that, obscure stuff like the Stone Mask seems exactly like the sort of stuff the Sheikah Stone was designed for. Speaking of the Stone Mask, does anyone think it was a bit of a weird decision to even have the Stone Mask in the game? Ocarina of Time introduced eight masks, the Keaton Mask, the Spooky Mask, the Skull Mask, the Bunny Hood, the Mask of Truth, the Goron Mask, the Zora Mask and...the Gerudo Mask. Five of those eight masks came back for Majora's Mask, and they had a section where you can wear a mask to wander around a Gerudo hide out, and instead of bringing back the Gerudo Mask they introduced a whole new Stone Mask. It just seems like kind of a weird choice. I guess the Stone Mask does also make certain enemies not attack you, so it's not exactly like it was a terrible idea to use the Stone Mask instead of the Gerudo Mask, it's certainly more versatile than a one trick pony, but eh, I kind of want to talk to the Gerudo guards like I could in Ocarina of Time.

 

Considering no Gerudo is fooled by the mask in OoT, the only way the Gerudo Mask could work is if it was also a transformation mask. So either it was redundant since you already got the Zora Mask in that region of the world (then again, it could've been obtained at Ikana with some stuff to justify getting and using it over there)... or the idea of Link turning into a girl was not considered appropriate. Nevermind/Even-with the whole Sheik thing back in OoT...

On that subject, I agree about the moving Shiro thing. It's not like he was truly obscure. Considering he was in one of those stone circles that by now you should be aware something might be in there if you use the Lens... probably.

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10 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Considering no Gerudo is fooled by the mask in OoT, the only way the Gerudo Mask could work is if it was also a transformation mask. So either it was redundant since you already got the Zora Mask in that region of the world (then again, it could've been obtained at Ikana with some stuff to justify getting and using it over there)... or the idea of Link turning into a girl was not considered appropriate. Nevermind/Even-with the whole Sheik thing back in OoT...

Well we see all of one Gerudo who is not fooled by the Gerudo Mask in Ocarina of Time, as excepting sequence breaks it's only that one Gerudo guarding the bridge that you can interact with as Yong Link (well, excepting Iron Knuckles). And the Gerudo in Aveil's room and the ones you fight aren't fooled by even the Stone Mask, so there's some consistency there, so largely I think I'd be okay with that.

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5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well we see all of one Gerudo who is not fooled by the Gerudo Mask in Ocarina of Time, as excepting sequence breaks it's only that one Gerudo guarding the bridge that you can interact with as Yong Link (well, excepting Iron Knuckles). And the Gerudo in Aveil's room and the ones you fight aren't fooled by even the Stone Mask, so there's some consistency there, so largely I think I'd be okay with that.

True, but then the mask itself is... not really a convincing disguise to begin with. Wait, do you mean as in having had a Gerudo transformation, or fine with the Stone Mask?

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30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Such a comment might feel a bit contrived, but I agree with the overall sentiment so I think I would have preferred a hint rather than changing it to be directly in your path. Of course maybe it didn't even need a hint like that, obscure stuff like the Stone Mask seems exactly like the sort of stuff the Sheikah Stone was designed for. Speaking of the Stone Mask, does anyone think it was a bit of a weird decision to even have the Stone Mask in the game? Ocarina of Time introduced eight masks, the Keaton Mask, the Spooky Mask, the Skull Mask, the Bunny Hood, the Mask of Truth, the Goron Mask, the Zora Mask and...the Gerudo Mask. Five of those eight masks came back for Majora's Mask, and they had a section where you can wear a mask to wander around a Gerudo hide out, and instead of bringing back the Gerudo Mask they introduced a whole new Stone Mask. It just seems like kind of a weird choice. I guess the Stone Mask does also make certain enemies not attack you, so it's not exactly like it was a terrible idea to use the Stone Mask instead of the Gerudo Mask, it's certainly more versatile than a one trick pony, but eh, I kind of want to talk to the Gerudo guards like I could in Ocarina of Time.

Thanks. Yeah; I'm not sure if a hint like that would be necessary. I guess I just personally prefer finding hints by interacting with the characters in the world, rather than by going to a designated hint-providing system and saying, "Give me a hint, please." When I replayed Ocarina of Time a couple years back, I already knew about how to find Ruto's letter and how to enter Jabu-Jabu's belly, but it was fascinating to see how many hints the game provides if you just look around Zora's Domain, read the signs and talk to the NPCs, considering that moment in the game is pretty much the one everyone references when they say, "Yeah, I need to find a walkthrough for that part of the game the first time I played it".

A mask that makes you unnoticeable to most people does make a lot more sense than an 11-year-old Hylian boy trying to fool a bunch of Gerudo pirates into thinking he's one of them by wearing a mask that looks like a Gerudo's face.

Gerudo Pirate: "That person over there clearly isn't on patrol, they're rather small, their hands are really pale, and- Oh my gosh that face is an obvious mask; there's an intruder right over there!"

 

23 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

On that subject, I agree about the moving Shiro thing. It's not like he was truly obscure. Considering he was in one of those stone circles that by now you should be aware something might be in there if you use the Lens... probably.

True. I just meant obscure in terms of finding him in Ikana when the game is saying, "Time to go in the exact opposite direction". Plus, Tatl turns green and flies in front of him when you approach the stone circles, so that's another hint to use the lens of truth.

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24 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

True, but then the mask itself is... not really a convincing disguise to begin with. Wait, do you mean as in having had a Gerudo transformation, or fine with the Stone Mask?

I meant just as a disguise...though I wouldn't necessarily be against a Gerudo transformation. It would probably just require some serious restructuing of the game (and I'm not sure what a hypothetical Gerudo Link could even do in terms of unique abilities other than fight with a sword differently).

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks. Yeah; I'm not sure if a hint like that would be necessary. I guess I just personally prefer finding hints by interacting with the characters in the world, rather than by going to a designated hint-providing system and saying, "Give me a hint, please." When I replayed Ocarina of Time a couple years back, I already knew about how to find Ruto's letter and how to enter Jabu-Jabu's belly, but it was fascinating to see how many hints the game provides if you just look around Zora's Domain, read the signs and talk to the NPCs, considering that moment in the game is pretty much the one everyone references when they say, "Yeah, I need to find a walkthrough for that part of the game the first time I played it".

You can find it easily enough just by wandering around. You play the mini game (I think they even mention the prize is a scale of some sort) to get the rupees, naturally you want to get all the rupees. You get this sweet new item that lets you dive deeper. Think of the possibilities! Right over there is a hole, immediately you want to go inside to test out your new divine abilities. Oh look, you're in Lake Hylia now, maybe you've been here before, maybe you haven't, but look, Navi is glowing green and pointing out something to you, better use your new diving abilities to check it out. Huh it's a letter from the princess. Don't tell her father? I'm a responsible ten year old, so I'm totally going to go do the opposite of that.

 

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9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You can find it easily enough just by wandering around. You play the mini game (I think they even mention the prize is a scale of some sort) to get the rupees, naturally you want to get all the rupees. You get this sweet new item that lets you dive deeper. Think of the possibilities! Right over there is a hole, immediately you want to go inside to test out your new divine abilities. Oh look, you're in Lake Hylia now, maybe you've been here before, maybe you haven't, but look, Navi is glowing green and pointing out something to you, better use your new diving abilities to check it out. Huh it's a letter from the princess. Don't tell her father? I'm a responsible ten year old, so I'm totally going to go do the opposite of that.

Oh; I completely agree. Going even further, you have to feed a fish to Jabu-Jabu to gain entry, and there is a sign in Zora's Domain that says that it is tradition for visitors to feed Jabu-Jabu a fish and that, if they do, good things will happen to them. As for how to get a fish to Jabu-Jabu, you just got a bottle that is now empty after giving the letter to Ruto's dad.

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The thing with the Stone Mask is...you still have to know in advance that it's there to enjoy the full benefits.  You have to...

---------------------------------------------

1) Have the foresight to leave some magic (because the Fortress has no Mana drops)

2) Know to pack a Red Potion before going there.

---------------------------------------------

So if you're like me, and you like getting x4 Bottles before going there, then it's a nice little reward for optimizing my route (saves me the time of going to Ikana first).  If, however, you're a newbie that only has 1 Bottle, then it (along with the new line of Hookshot targets) is a nice way of cutting some of the tedium.  It's a good change from both perspectives, IMO...even if it is a bit thematically inappropriate for the water area (as opposed to the ghost area).

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32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I meant just as a disguise...though I wouldn't necessarily be against a Gerudo transformation. It would probably just require some serious restructuing of the game (and I'm not sure what a hypothetical Gerudo Link could even do in terms of unique abilities other than fight with a sword differently).

That's certainly true. There's not much that can be unique to a hypothetical Gerudo form that Link couldn't do already as a Hylian. Unless it was another Darmani and Mikau sitution where Link is turning into an adult while transformed, and that opened up stuff to do. A throwback to the Child/Adult forms of Link having access to different items? Eh, maybe. Since the closest thing to Adult Link in MM is Fierce Deity, and that is only available during boss fights.

For its worth, first thing that came into my mind was having this form cast proper magic.

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1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

The thing with the Stone Mask is...you still have to know in advance that it's there to enjoy the full benefits.  You have to...

---------------------------------------------

1) Have the foresight to leave some magic (because the Fortress has no Mana drops)

2) Know to pack a Red Potion before going there.

---------------------------------------------

So if you're like me, and you like getting x4 Bottles before going there, then it's a nice little reward for optimizing my route (saves me the time of going to Ikana first).  If, however, you're a newbie that only has 1 Bottle, then it (along with the new line of Hookshot targets) is a nice way of cutting some of the tedium.  It's a good change from both perspectives, IMO...even if it is a bit thematically inappropriate for the water area (as opposed to the ghost area).

I seriously can't tell if you're arguing that it's a good change or a bad change.

As you said, you have to know in advance in order to reap the benefits. Picture this: a newbie comes to the Pirate's Fortress and they spot Shiro. They probably don't have a red potion on hand because they wanted every bottle they have empty for carrying the Zora Eggs. They'll probably also naturally think that he's somehow important to the quest. So, they'll probably leave, go to either the Zora Shop or Koume's Shop and buy a red potion, then go all the way through the first section of the Pirate Fortress again, give the potion to Shiro, get the mask, and then use it. Then, because they're a newbie, they probably didn't get four bottles, so they'll have to leave and come back at least once more. Combine this with how likely it is for a newbie to get caught or take enough damage from one of the pirate swordswomen to get thrown out, and this adds up to a lot of time.

I recognize that this is a rather specific set of circumstances, but my point that I'm trying to illustrate essentially is that, with Shiro being in the Road to Ikana, there's no possible way he can add more time to what is already potentially one of the longest main quests in a game where you do not have the time. I breezed through the Pirate Fortress and Pinnacle Rock with four bottles and the stone mask and it still took a full in-game day; imagine how much having to leave and come back to those places adds, and then consider that Shiro could be a reason someone decides to leave and come back.

 

Anyway, speaking of bottles, I just raced the beaver bros for an empty bottle and a piece of heart. The races were very easy. That said, I noticed when I finished the final one (that gets you a piece of heart) that I completed it pretty much perfectly, with zero mistakes and always Zora swimming, and there were maybe two seconds left, and I remembered our discussion earlier about how the 3DS version ties the zora-swimming to magic and compensates in the beaver bros. race by adding magic pots... that are out of the way. How narrow was the victory that got you a piece of heart?

Edited by vanguard333
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26 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I seriously can't tell if you're arguing that it's a good change or a bad change.

I was saying it's good from a gameplay perspective, since it makes subsequent trips easier (which an unprepared person will appreciate).  That said, it does clash with the water theme...

But, you have a good counter-argument with the following:

Quote

As you said, you have to know in advance in order to reap the benefits... So, they'll probably leave, go to either the Zora Shop or Koume's Shop and buy a red potion, then go all the way through the first section of the Pirate Fortress again, give the potion to Shiro, get the mask, and then use it...[T]hey probably didn't get four bottles, so they'll have to leave and come back at least once more...

The Red Bottle becomes an Empty Bottle the moment Shiro drinks it.  Therefore, there are no added trips.

Quote

Anyway, speaking of bottles, I just raced the beaver bros for an empty bottle and a piece of heart. The races were very easy. That said, I noticed when I finished the final one (that gets you a piece of heart) that I completed it pretty much perfectly, with zero mistakes and always Zora swimming, and there were maybe two seconds left, and I remembered our discussion earlier about how the 3DS version ties the zora-swimming to magic and compensates in the beaver bros. race by adding magic pots... that are out of the way. How narrow was the victory that got you a piece of heart?

A bit easier, actually.  You go even faster than you originally could via the "Mash the R Button repeatedly" trick showed off in the clip I showed.  It's as fast as Dolphin Diving, which you didn't really get to do in the N64 version.  The advantage becomes even more obvious if you drink Chateau de Romani (though it's evident even without any magic upgrades).

Compare and contrast the N64:

...to the 3DS:

 

Edited by FionordeQuester
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1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

I was saying it's good from a gameplay perspective, since it makes subsequent trips easier (which an unprepared person will appreciate).  That said, it does clash with the water theme...

But, you have a good counter-argument with the following:

The Red Bottle becomes an Empty Bottle the moment Shiro drinks it.  Therefore, there are no added trips.

I see.

I know the red bottle will become an empty bottle when Shiro drinks it; the "they will likely have to go back yet again even after giving the potion to Shiro" was in reference to the person in the scenario being a newbie who didn't bring four bottles (since there are four eggs in the Pirate Fortress), with the point being that the one time they would go back to get a red potion to give to Shiro would be one additional going-back among others that they'd likely end up doing anyway without Shiro being there. In other words, it takes all this time + 1 extra bit of time for Shiro.

 

1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

A bit easier, actually.  You go even faster than you originally could via the "Mash the R Button repeatedly" trick showed off in the clip I showed.  It's as fast as Dolphin Diving, which you didn't really get to do in the N64 version.  The advantage becomes even more obvious if you drink Chateau de Romani (though it's evident even without any magic upgrades).

Okay. True that you could use chateau romani to bypass that issue.

I did use dolphin jumping a couple of times during the races against the big beaver brother, particularly when there were two rings close together near the surface and I was able to go through both of them with one dolphin jump.

 

By the way, regarding the chateau romani, there isn't really anything to do in the Great Bay after beating the temple, apart from delivering the stray fairies to the fountain obviously, so, would it make sense to start going through the temple at night after drinking a bottle of chateau romani (since ice arrows + the only attack while Zora swimming using magic), or would it be easier, since I have five bottles, to just buy three magic potions before entering the dungeon? I ask because I'm starting to think that the only two times the chateau romani is useful are the stone tower and on the cycle where you go to the moon.

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I know the red bottle will become an empty bottle when Shiro drinks it; the "they will likely have to go back yet again even after giving the potion to Shiro" was in reference to the person in the scenario being a newbie who didn't bring four bottles (since there are four eggs in the Pirate Fortress), with the point being that the one time they would go back to get a red potion to give to Shiro would be one additional going-back among others that they'd likely end up doing anyway without Shiro being there. In other words, it takes all this time + 1 extra bit of time for Shiro.

Eh.  I feel like I would just do what I could till I got the egg.  Suppose it depends on the player, though.

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, regarding the chateau romani, there isn't really anything to do in the Great Bay after beating the temple, apart from delivering the stray fairies to the fountain obviously, so, would it make sense to start going through the temple at night after drinking a bottle of chateau romani (since ice arrows + the only attack while Zora swimming using magic), or would it be easier, since I have five bottles, to just buy three magic potions before entering the dungeon? I ask because I'm starting to think that the only two times the chateau romani is useful are the stone tower and on the cycle where you go to the moon.

That's why I save clearing Woodfall, Great Bay Temple, & Stone Tower for Cycle 5 (out of the 6 I always do).  That, and so I can clear the frogs in one go.

Of course, I also Chateau on Cycle 4, when on 3DS.  Buffed Song of Double Time makes that convenient!

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2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, regarding the chateau romani, there isn't really anything to do in the Great Bay after beating the temple, apart from delivering the stray fairies to the fountain obviously, so, would it make sense to start going through the temple at night after drinking a bottle of chateau romani (since ice arrows + the only attack while Zora swimming using magic), or would it be easier, since I have five bottles, to just buy three magic potions before entering the dungeon? I ask because I'm starting to think that the only two times the chateau romani is useful are the stone tower and on the cycle where you go to the moon.

The Fisherman's Jumping game is one of the things you can do after clearing the temple, though it doesn't cost magic.

1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

Eh.  I feel like I would just do what I could till I got the egg.  Suppose it depends on the player, though.

Doing what you can to get the egg doesn't help if you only have three bottles. With three bottles it's at least two trips to the fortress. Sure someone could see Shiro and get an egg at the same time to keep it at two trips, but as far as I remember you're likely to encounter Shiro before naturally finding any Zora eggs. And this even assumes a new player can find all four eggs and make their way to the eels without the same three day cycle.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Doing what you can to get the egg doesn't help if you only have three bottles. With three bottles it's at least two trips to the fortress. Sure someone could see Shiro and get an egg at the same time to keep it at two trips, but as far as I remember you're likely to encounter Shiro before naturally finding any Zora eggs. And this even assumes a new player can find all four eggs and make their way to the eels without the same three day cycle.

I'm not sure I understand the statement.  Are you agreeing there's a possibility the player would leave before they went further for an Egg?  That's the only way I can see time being lost (apart from going to the Item Shop to buy it).

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2 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

I'm not sure I understand the statement.  Are you agreeing there's a possibility the player would leave before they went further for an Egg?  That's the only way I can see time being lost (apart from going to the Item Shop to buy it).

Yes. When they see Shiro, as vanguard said, they will likely assume he is immediately vital to the quest and leave right away to help him without thinking to grab some eggs before getting out of the fortress. New players probably won't even know you need bottles for the Zora Eggs, likely assuming you will rescue them as a quest item at the end of the fortress which can only be reached by helping Shiro.

Edited by Jotari
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10 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

That's why I save clearing Woodfall, Great Bay Temple, & Stone Tower for Cycle 5 (out of the 6 I always do).  That, and so I can clear the frogs in one go.

Of course, I also Chateau on Cycle 4, when on 3DS.  Buffed Song of Double Time makes that convenient!

Good point about the frogs; I was planning on saving that frog sidequest for after I clear the temple for the first time, so that I know my way around and can just go right up to the miniboss that's a cursed frog.

 

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

The Fisherman's Jumping game is one of the things you can do after clearing the temple, though it doesn't cost magic.

Oh; I didn't know about that. I should say that one of the things I'm using is my memory of a playthrough my brother did for Majora's Mask over a decade ago, and he never got past the Great Bay Temple (it was always at the water temples that he stopped playing... completely coincidentally and for entirely different reasons of course). Thanks for letting me know about that; I had been wondering how you were supposed to reach that set of islands; I tried dolphin-jumping and eventually gave up, figuring that I'd need ice arrows + the hookshot to reach them and that there'd probably be a hole with a piece of heart when I got there. Good to know now that you get there via a motorboat + hookshot and that there's a minigame there after completing the temple.

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes. When they see Shiro, as vanguard said, they will likely assume he is immediately vital to the quest and leave right away to help him without thinking to grab some eggs before getting out of the fortress. New players probably won't even know you need bottles for the Zora Eggs, likely assuming you will rescue them as a quest item at the end of the fortress which can only be reached by helping Shiro.

Thanks. Yeah; that's what I meant.

Well, attentive and explorative new players might figure out that you need bottles, since a Zora mentions Mikau trying to get an empty bottle from the beaver bros. before then wondering what Mikau needed the bottle for, and the band member that knows about the missing eggs mentions the need for bottles if you talk to him as Zora Link if I recall correctly.

Speaking of NPC dialogue, it seems that the fisherman isn't the only person in the Great Bay with an... interest... in the Gerudo pirates that goes into the realm of stupidity; there's a Zora NPC near the hidden entrance to the Pirate Fortress, and if you talk to him as Zora Link, he will warn you away from the area as it's near the entrance to the Pirate Fortress... before then saying that he himself is fine where he is, saying that he heard that the pirates are all women and that they're supposedly very attractive, and admitting that he wants to see for himself... What an idiot!

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