Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)

[vanguard333]

11 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

As far as I can tell, it sort of increases along with the walk speed.  So a Spin Dash from a standing position will still be relatively slow, compared to one when Link has some momentum.  It's why for that video, I needed to be right on the backward edge of the lily pad to go as far as I did.

Eh, the jerky way they move and inflate is a bit silly looking, and they don't serve any functional purpose.  They'd be the feature I miss the least.

Wart though...I actually liked him a lot.  I liked how there was both a slow but easy way (Hookshot spam) to beating his first phase, and a fast but risky way of doing it (Blast Mask + Bomb Throws).  His 2nd phase was actually pretty fun, once I got good at doing Quick Spins—I'd tag him as he dashed by.  Heck, even regular Spin Attacks might be good, since they make the camera pan overhead.

Indeed.  They are pretty cool.

Yeah, unless you make an ice platform and pelt him with arrows (has to be done before he sinks the platform), you still need to use the mines—some guys just dislodge them by swimming into them, rather than shielding from a kneeling position.

Will do.

Huh..forgot about that.

Yeah, he's honestly not that bad.  The decision to nerf him is the most baffling change out of all of them. 

I can only figure that most folks failed their first time, due to how suddenly he gets up and goes, but...I think they solved that just by adding in intro text ("Prove your worth and catch me while passing through my walls of flame", or something like that).

It's especially strange, given that all the actually tough mini-bosses (Igos du Ikana for example) are completely unchanged.

Good!  People probably just find it dull, more than anything—I know I do..

I see. That makes sense.

Ah. I see. Yeah; the way they inflate like a balloon just looks silly.

The first phase was fine, if a bit tedious no matter what method you use. As for the 2nd phase, how did you manage to hurt him with the spin attack?! I had to keep rapid-firing arrows and desperately trying (and failing) to dodge and just hoping for the best. Being able to treat him like a bullfight (with Link's sword as the cape) would've been so much easier and less janky.

That they are. I look forward to Twinmold probably being somewhat simplistic but still fun.

Ah, so your only options in the second phase are mines and arrows... They added an entirely underwater (unless you used ice arrows beforehand) second phase, and don't let you fight him head-on as Zora Link?! Why?!

Thank you.

Forgot about what? The house using a music player to scare off Gibdos, or being able to use Tatl to interrogate Sakon?

Yeah, it is baffling. Honestly, even if you know going in (as I did), you probably will fail the first time if my attempt is any indication, as chasing an enemy through a guantlet is one the player hasn't been challenged on yet. It's easily retriable by just leaving the area and coming back (and there's a hole in the ground nearby for that). But yeah; some intro text would probably have helped, and there already is a sign next to him saying to wake him and beat his challenge and he'll remove the ring of fire around the treasure chest that's on the roof of Dampe's house.

Yeah; it is a bit dull. That said, getting suddenly grabbed by a Wallmaster because I was focused on Dampe and mistakenly read that there weren't any Wallmasters in Majora's Mask wasn't dull; it was simply irritating. It's funny; that should've been quite the jump-scare considering all that, but I wasn't even startled; I was just thinking, "Seriously; there are Wallmasters in this game too? These things are nothing but annoying time-wasters. Tatl could've at least told me about them in advance like Navi did in Ocarina of Time."

Edited July 25, 2021 by vanguard333

[FionordeQuester]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

The first phase was fine, if a bit tedious no matter what method you use. As for the 2nd phase, how did you manage to hurt him with the spin attack?! I had to keep rapid-firing arrows and desperately trying (and failing) to dodge and just hoping for the best. Being able to treat him like a bullfight (with Link's sword as the cape) would've been so much easier and less janky.

It's not a for sure thing, but he thrashes about randomly enough that you're bound to tag him at some point—you can also use the Goron Pound for this purpose, since it has AoE.

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That they are. I look forward to Twinmold probably being somewhat simplistic but still fun.

Hope so.

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Ah, so your only options in the second phase are mines and arrows... They added an entirely underwater (unless you used ice arrows beforehand) second phase, and don't let you fight him head-on as Zora Link?! Why?!

...Ah, forgive me!  I did some experimenting, and it looks like you can fight him head-on!  It's not the easiest or quickest way, but they still let you!

NOTE: I didn't have Song of Inverted Time on.

 

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Forgot about what? The house using a music player to scare off Gibdos, or being able to use Tatl to interrogate Sakon?

Sakon.

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Yeah, it is baffling...It's easily retriable by just leaving the area and coming back... But yeah; some intro text would probably have helped, and there already is a sign next to him saying to wake him and beat his challenge and he'll remove the ring of fire around the treasure chest that's on the roof of Dampe's house.

Hmm...Could be because there's no easy Warp Point there?  Like, if you can't beat him before the day runs out, or something?  That's about all I got *shrug*.

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Yeah; it is a bit dull. That said, getting suddenly grabbed by a Wallmaster because I was focused on Dampe and mistakenly read that there weren't any Wallmasters in Majora's Mask wasn't dull; it was simply irritating. It's funny; that should've been quite the jump-scare considering all that, but I wasn't even startled; I was just thinking, "Seriously; there are Wallmasters in this game too? These things are nothing but annoying time-wasters. Tatle could've at least told me about them in advance like Navi did in Ocarina of Time."

Whoa.  Navi actually trumped Tatl on something...who'd have thought?

Edited July 25, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

6 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

It's not a for sure thing, but he thrashes about randomly enough that you're bound to tag him at some point—you can also use the Goron Pound for this purpose, since it has AoE.

...Ah, forgive me!  I did some experimenting, and it looks like you can fight him head-on!  It's not the easiest or quickest way, but they still let you!

 

Sakon.

Hmm...Could be because there's no easy Warp Point there?  Like, if you can't beat him before the day runs out, or something?  That's about all I got *shrug*.

Whoa.  Navi actually trumped Tatl on something...who'd have thought?

I see. I guess I figured that the eye was too elevated a hitbox for those attacks to work.

Ah; that makes sense. Tell me: were you surfacing often to avoid attacks, the mines, or both? Or was it just to make it easier to keep track of where Gyorg was or something like that?

 

Ah. Okay.

Perhaps. Nerfing him was still a baffling change though; all they needed was to make it clear that waking him up would lead to a pursuit challenge.

Yeah. Perhaps in this case, it was either an overcorrection from Navi, or they thought, "Eh; it's a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time; people playing it will know about the wallmasters, so it's not like we really need Tatl to warn the player about them."

Speaking of which, is there anywhere else where there are wallmasters? Beneath the Well? Ikana Castle? Stone Tower Temple?

[FionordeQuester]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. I guess I figured that the eye was too elevated a hitbox for those attacks to work.

Nope!  They work just fine 🙂 !

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Ah; that makes sense. Tell me: were you surfacing often to avoid attacks, the mines, or both? Or was it just to make it easier to keep track of where Gyorg was or something like that?

It was his AI.  Being above water tempts him to do a charge attack he won't do underwater (luring him to you)—it also makes it possible for him to swim under you, rather than away (so that you can tag him on the way by).

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Perhaps. Nerfing him was still a baffling change though; all they needed was to make it clear that waking him up would lead to a pursuit challenge.

Indeed.

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah. Perhaps in this case, it was either an overcorrection from Navi, or they thought, "Eh; it's a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time; people playing it will know about the wallmasters, so it's not like we really need Tatl to warn the player about them"...Speaking of which, is there anywhere else where there are wallmasters? Beneath the Well? Ikana Castle? Stone Tower Temple?

Beneath the Well has some Wallmasters too—nothing else apart from that, AFAIK.

[vanguard333]

18 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Nope!  They work just fine 🙂 !

It was his AI.  Being above water tempts him to do a charge attack he won't do underwater (luring him to you)—it also makes it possible for him to swim under you, rather than away (so that you can tag him on the way by).

Beneath the Well has some Wallmasters too—nothing else apart from that, AFAIK.

Okay. Thanks. I'll remember this for the secret shrine (assuming Wart appears there; please don't tell me if he does).

Ah; that makes a lot of sense.

Okay. If I get grabbed by a Wallmaster that appears in Ikana Castle or Stone Tower Temple, I'm blaming you (just kidding).

Speaking of which, did the 3DS remake get rid of the wallmasters or keep them? I know that Ocarina of Time 3D kept the Wallmasters.

Personally, I'm just glad that wallmasters and floormasters are largely gone from the later Zelda titles. They're more annoying than anything else really.

[FionordeQuester]

7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Okay. Thanks. I'll remember this for the secret shrine (assuming Wart appears there; please don't tell me if he does).

I won't 🤫

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[D]id the 3DS remake get rid of the wallmasters or keep them?

Nope!  Still there!

Edited July 26, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

On 7/25/2021 at 11:32 AM, FionordeQuester said:

I won't 🤫

Nope!  Still there!

Thanks.

Of course it didn't. As much as I find them annoying, I can understand not wanting to remove them, as others may have missed them if they were gone (though would anyone really have noticed their absence?)

 

EDIT: Well, I just completed the Well and Ikana Castle. Ikana Castle was by far the better mini-dungeon.

I have no problem with mazes where you have to bring a different item to each entrance (with each required item being hinted at rather than outright stated), and I'm glad that the only two items you can't get within the well are both asked for at the soonest entrances. However, I do have a problem with the place being a bit needlessly dark since there's no lantern or anything like that to help illuminate the area around Link, I dislike the presence of wallmasters, and I dislike how the "maze" is basically just two main paths: one leading to a generic fairy fountain and the other leading to the actual exit with the mirror shield. I'm not necessarily asking for something more elaborate or extensive (as that would probably just get tedious), but I think a better solution would've been one main path and more branches like the branch path that leads to a room with a Big Poe and a room with a cow.

Ikana Castle was visually interesting in that it was some interesting ruins. I like that there are no wallmasters. I like how one room can be crossed using either deku flowers or the lens of truth. I'm glad that there's a Garo in the courtyard that tells you to bring a powder keg, and another Garo that tells you to shine light on the king and his lackeys after defeating them. I just lament that I had to resort to a walkthrough for the falling roof puzzle; in retrospect, with the amount of time the switch remains activated and with the number of flowers there are, it should've been obvious that you burrow into a flower to avoid getting crushed and push the roof back up by leaving the flower. And here I call myself good at solving puzzles. Perhaps I would've figured it out on my own if I didn't have a walkthrough open for the well in order to know which rooms had wallmasters, so I blame the wallmasters for making it that I'll never know if I could've figured out the puzzle.

As for Igos du Ikana and his lackeys... they're a great example of how the old "there's one puzzle-like way to beat these guys" mentality makes it easy it is to forget what you have at your disposal that can make a fight easier. What I mean by that is that, because the puzzle for beating them clearly involved the curtains, after I burned the curtains with fire arrows, I kept trying to use the light to stun them and open them up to attacks. I didn't realize that the only real purpose of the light is to finish them off (as it doesn't stun them nearly long enough to get an attack in and they can block it most of the time), and that I could've used Deku Link's spin attack to stun them. I did think about using deku nuts, but I didn't have any. The really sad part is that I used Deku Link to stun the lackeys so I could freely shoot fire arrows at the curtains, yet it didn't occur to me to use that tactic at any other point in the fight until afterward. I was able to beat them, but it took a lot longer than it probably would've if I had thought to try methods other then the light.

Well, tomorrow, I will be tackling the stone tower temple. This time, since there shouldn't be any wallmasters, I hopefully shouldn't be needing a walkthrough.

 

EDIT: I was just rewatching Nerrel's review of Majora's Mask for background noise while reading something, and, when it got to the part about Deku Link's movement and leaving the cave, I noticed something that he said:

Nerrel: "If the player falls into the water while leaving this area, they'll be stranded on a ledge where they can't reach the first pad or move backwards"

All his footage from trying and failing to leave the cave has him start at the very edge of the entrance because that's where Deku Link is placed if the player falls into the water. All your successful attempts at reaching the first lily pad, you started from further back in the cave. I'm not saying you're wrong; just that we both missed that bit of context, which led to a test that was, in some ways, irrelevant to his claim.

 

EDIT: I just completed the Stone Tower Temple. It was interesting.

The path to the stone tower was a decent puzzle: you have to figure out the right order with which to press down three sets of switches using the elegy of emptiness. However, I agree with Nerrell that having to play that song over and over again, as well as repeatedly swapping out the hookshot and the transformation masks, was a bit tiring. Good thing that you only have to do that three times before reaching the top.

So, anyway, I did end up using a walkthrough, but only to minimize the number of times I would've needed to go outside and flip the temple upside-down. I regret that one or two of the smaller puzzle solutions got spoiled for me in the process, but thankfully most of them weren't. I would've rather explored on my own and figured this all out for myself, but I was still able to enjoy most of the dungeon without the walkthrough.

The temple flipping upside-down was a neat mechanic, though having to go outside almost every time means that it's really more like two separate dungeons with overlapping keys. On the plus side, having to go outside for the dungeon gave me a brilliant idea: when I got to the point where I had to flip the temple upside-down for the first time, it was night of the First Day, so I warped to Clock Town using the song of soaring, drank a chateau romani, and warped right back to the temple and continued on without losing a bit of progress.

The mini-bosses were interesting: the Shedinja boss was basically like his fellow Shedinja except competent enough to hold onto his swords and has more than 1 HP. He was still rather easy to beat; much easier than the king of Ikana, which makes me wonder why the king seemingly lost the war. (Side note: if you're wondering why I'm calling the Garo Shedinja, it's because Pamela's dad explains that the enemies you're fighting aren't the original Garo; they're the Garo's clothing animated by the curse that's coming out of the temple. So they're basically sword-wielding Shedinja). The one with the scythe and the crows was kind-of interesting, though it was obvious what the strategy was: shoot with a light arrow, close in and slash with sword, block response attack with shield, rinse, repeat. He can deal quite a bit of damage if you don't block, but it really is the fact that this mini-boss looks like a reaper that makes it memorable. Finally, there was the re-used Wizzrobe: I understand that they were rushing, but did they really need to have another wizzrobe? He was rather boring honestly.

Anyway, as for Twinmold, they were really easy, especially since I had infinite mana, but an easy & fun boss fight at the end of a dungeon like the Stone Tower Temple isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it was fairly fun.

So, then I delivered the last set of stray fairies and received the Great Fairy's Sword from the Great Fairy of Kindness. …I don't know why a Great Fairy of kindness would have a sword, but there you go. The only disappointing thing was the lack of anything to do in Ikana Canyon after beating Twinmold. I mean, there's the secret shrine, but that can be done without having to beat Twinmold beforehand in the same cycle. It's kind-of disappointing that you beat Twinmold, the sky's cleared up, the undead are gone, and... that's it; unlike the other three regions, nothing's unlocked that can only be done after lifting the curse. It might seem fitting at first, since the land was filled with the dead as a result of the curse and now it's empty of the dead. But there are two people in the area: Pamela and her dad. You'd think there'd be some kind of minigame or sidequest involving the two of them, now that the undead that were the reason Pamela's dad brought them there in the first place are gone. But nope; nothing. Now, there's something that the 3DS remake could've added: something to do in Ikana after lifting the curse.

 

EDIT: I just completed the game! I finally finished it!

Before I get to the ending, I will just quickly say: the secret shrine is... okay I guess. Strange choice of mini-bosses; I can see why it would have ones like Wart that aren't repeated, but then the rest are Dinofols (who you fight fairly often), Wizzrobe (yet again) and Garo Master (who is supposed to be a unique sapient individual). I get that they're supposed to be one from every dungeon, and they couldn't reuse the cursed frogs, but it's still an odd choice to me.

Okay, now onto that final cycle and the moon:

The moon is interesting. I guess it only makes sense to end the game on an optional set of four mini-dungeons (even Ocarina of Time ended on something that would be better described as six mini-dungeons and a tower climb than an actual dungeon), and they're rather reflective of the regions: Odolwa's mini-dungeon uses the deku flowers, Goht's the goron roll, Gyorg's zora swimming, and Twinmold's is a series of mini-boss fights. One of these is not like the others, but the same was true of the region. This time, I can understand re-using Garo Master as an enemy, as every part of the moon seems to be some kind of magical construct made by the Mask now that it's possessing the inside of the moon.

I gave all the masks to the masked kids and got the Fierce Deity Mask, so the Majora's Mask fight was a cakewalk. Still, the mask doesn't completely reduce the fight to 'spam b to win'; you still have to strike behind Majora's Mask to damage it, you probably want to bring down the four boss masks, you still need to chase down Majora's Incarnation, and you still want to block or dodge Majora's Wrath's fast whip attacks. I think the Fierce Deity Mask is a great reward for the player going out of their way to help everyone in Termina.

As for the Majora's Mask boss fight, I like the atmosphere from the surreal realm, I like the fight from a gameplay perspective, I like how the mask takes back all the boss masks and then uses them against you, and I like how each of the three phases reveals the mask's true nature: the 1st phase is cold, the 2nd is a petulant child, and the 3rd is that very child's temper tantrum. That said, I don't think I like how each additional phase just makes the mask more humanoid; you can almost forget that you are fighting a mask.

Finally, that ending. The ending I got was frankly a perfect way for the game to end; it crashed...

 

…fooled you there for a moment; didn't I? Nah; thankfully, everything went smoothly, and the ending was indeed pretty much perfect. Seeing "Dawn of a New Day" was just perfect, and I genuinely believe the game is saying, for this golden ending at least, that everything you did to help the people of Termina really did ripple through to this timeline: the Happy Mask Salesman outright says that he can tell by the masks Link has being full of happiness that Link has made a lot of people happy, and every single cutscene in the end credits involves someone you helped where the reward was one of the masks or a mask was needed to help them: Gorman gets to see the band, the dancers perform the dancing ghost's dance, the music guy that's the Terminian version of the windmill guy gets to play (there's a cutscene dedicated to showing him specifically playing happily), Romani and Cremia are happy at the ranch, the five Great Fairies are fully restored, the Deku Butler finds his son's corpse (remember his mini-game that rewards the mask of scents), Anju and Kafei's wedding, etc. Speaking of the wedding, I like how Tingle is there to draw a picture of the wedding and then throw celebration confetti (and he cries all over the picture as it's such a joyful moment), but I'm not sure how I feel about Link not being at the wedding; I mean, he was the witness for their reunion and mask exchange, but part of me does feel that Link should've been a guest at that wedding as well.

Speaking of the Happy Mask Salesman outright spelling out one of the game's two main themes, he also spells out the thing I said earlier regarding Link having to learn the same lesson in regard to Navi that the Skull Kid had to learn in regard to the Four Giants: as he departs, he outright says to Link and everyone: "Whenever there is a meeting, a parting is sure to follow. But whether that parting be forever, or only for a brief time... is up to you." At first, I'd say that it's a bit blunt, especially given how Ocarina of Time relegated its themes to the subtext. But, it's poetic, and seeing how many people missed it despite it being bluntly said directly to the camera, I'd say the bluntness was appropriate.

Another thing I liked about the ending was how, despite Tatl suggesting that Link get a move on and return to his land while the carnival's happening, Link decides there's still one thing he needs to do: use the Zora Mask one last time so Mikau's band can all play at the Carnival of Time together. Seriously; he's right there, and that's honestly really sweet. I especially like how it implies that he didn't just leave everyone wondering why Mikau and Darmani suddenly vanished (he wouldn't need to say anything to the Deku because he was a stranger to them and they figured out he's a shapeshifter).

And of course, that last scene of Link riding off in the Lost Woods as the camera pans to a new picture the Skull Kid has carved that shows all his friends: the for giants, Tatl, Tael, and Link. It really sums up what I was saying earlier about the theme of how just because friends depart, doesn't mean that friendship is gone. I know a lot of people like to think Link ends the game and continues his journey to find Navi. But, personally, because of this theme, I like to think that this experience gave Link the closure he truly needed (at least in regards to Navi as well as the friendships he made in the adult timeline), and that he simply returned to Hyrule, where there are people like Zelda waiting for him.

 

THE END (of my review of Majora's Mask N64 at least; do you think I should put my thoughts on its themes and its ending into brand new topic?)

Edited July 28, 2021 by vanguard333

[FionordeQuester]

On 7/25/2021 at 12:08 PM, vanguard333 said:

Thanks.

Of course it didn't. As much as I find them annoying, I can understand not wanting to remove them, as others may have missed them if they were gone (though would anyone really have noticed their absence?)

Probably not—but oh well.

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EDIT: Well, I just completed the Well and Ikana Castle. Ikana Castle was by far the better mini-dungeon.

I have no problem with mazes where you have to bring a different item to each entrance...and I'm glad that the only two items you can't get within the well are both asked for at the soonest entrances. However, I do have a problem with the place being a bit needlessly dark...I dislike the presence of wallmasters, and I dislike how the "maze" is basically just two main paths: one leading to a generic fairy fountain and the other leading to the actual exit with the mirror shield. I'm not necessarily asking for something more elaborate or extensive (as that would probably just get tedious), but I think a better solution would've been one main path and more branches like the branch path that leads to a room with a Big Poe and a room with a cow.

I liked it, personally—thought it was both an interesting and open-ended puzzle.  I also liked that you could cut bits of it out on future playthroughs, the way it's designed.  Also liked the ambiance the darkness gave it.

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Ikana Castle was visually interesting in that it was some interesting ruins. I like that there are no wallmasters. I like how one room can be crossed using either deku flowers or the lens of truth. I'm glad that there's a Garo in the courtyard that tells you to bring a powder keg, and another Garo that tells you to shine light on the king and his lackeys after defeating them. I just lament that I had to resort to a walkthrough for the falling roof puzzle...it should've been obvious that you burrow into a flower...and push the roof back up...

I mean, it doesn't make much sense from a logical perspective—the 3DS actually tweaked it by adding a hole above the flower.

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As for Igos du Ikana and his lackeys... they're a great example of how the old "there's one puzzle-like way to beat these guys" mentality makes it easy it is to forget what you have at your disposal that can make a fight easier. What I mean by that is that, because the puzzle for beating them clearly involved the curtains, after I burned the curtains with fire arrows, I kept trying to use the light to stun them and open them up to attacks. I didn't realize that the only real purpose of the light is to finish them off (as it doesn't stun them nearly long enough to get an attack in and they can block it most of the time), and that I could've used Deku Link's spin attack to stun them. I did think about using deku nuts, but I didn't have any. The really sad part is that I used Deku Link to stun the lackeys so I could freely shoot fire arrows at the curtains, yet it didn't occur to me to use that tactic at any other point in the fight until afterward. I was able to beat them, but it took a lot longer than it probably would've if I had thought to try methods other then the light.

Igos du Ikana himself, especially, is one of my favorite bosses in the 3D games (having not played Skyward Sword or Breath of the Wild)—he's how Ganondorf should have been, IMO.  He's bouncing around all over the place, blocking a lot of your swipes, has a wide variety of attacks (close-range swing, mid-range breath, long-range head)...imagine having a fight like that for OoT Ganondorf!

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EDIT: I was just rewatching Nerrel's review...I noticed something that he said:

Nerrel: "If the player falls into the water while leaving this area, they'll be stranded on a ledge where they can't reach the first pad or move backwards"

All his footage from trying and failing to leave the cave has him start at the very edge of the entrance because that's where Deku Link is placed if the player falls into the water...[W]e both missed that bit of context, which led to a test that was, in some ways, irrelevant to his claim.

His claim was that you had to "awkwardly run along the mouth of the cave", and that Deku Hopping was "broken"...neither of which was true.  My point stands,IMO.

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The path to the stone tower was a decent puzzle: you have to figure out the right order with which to press down three sets of switches using the elegy of emptiness. However, I agree with Nerrell that having to play that song over and over again, as well as repeatedly swapping out the hookshot and the transformation masks, was a bit tiring. Good thing that you only have to do that three times before reaching the top.

Indeed.

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So, anyway, I did end up using a walkthrough, but only to minimize the number of times I would've needed to go outside and flip the temple upside-down. I regret that one or two of the smaller puzzle solutions got spoiled for me in the process, but thankfully most of them weren't. I would've rather explored on my own and figured this all out for myself, but I was still able to enjoy most of the dungeon without the walkthrough.

Cool!

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The temple flipping upside-down was a neat mechanic, though having to go outside almost every time means that it's really more like two separate dungeons with overlapping keys. On the plus side, having to go outside for the dungeon gave me a brilliant idea: when I got to the point where I had to flip the temple upside-down for the first time, it was night of the First Day, so I warped to Clock Town using the song of soaring, drank a chateau romani, and warped right back to the temple and continued on without losing a bit of progress.

Always a good plan, having some Chateau to slam!

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The mini-bosses were interesting: the Shedinja boss was basically like his fellow Shedinja except competent enough to hold onto his swords and has more than 1 HP. He was still rather easy to beat; much easier than the king of Ikana...The one with the scythe and the crows was kind-of interesting...[He can do a lot of damage,] though it was obvious what the strategy was: shoot with a light arrow, close in and slash with sword, block response attack with shield, rinse, repeat...Finally, there was the re-used Wizzrobe...did they really need to have another wizzrobe?

I wish Gomess showed up more often—that's the one with the crow and scythe.

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Anyway, as for Twinmold, they were really easy, especially since I had infinite mana, but an easy & fun boss fight at the end of a dungeon like the Stone Tower Temple isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it was fairly fun.

You found it fun?  That's good—me the camera was too difficult for me to work with to enjoy.  Didn't enjoy voiding out, either...but I warned you of that last one, huh?

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So, then I delivered the last set of stray fairies and received the Great Fairy's Sword from the Great Fairy of Kindness. …I don't know why a Great Fairy of kindness would have a sword, but there you go.

Hence why she gave it away 😛 !

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The only disappointing thing was the lack of anything to do in Ikana Canyon after beating Twinmold. I mean, there's the secret shrine, but that can be done without having to beat Twinmold beforehand in the same cycle. It's kind-of disappointing that you beat Twinmold, the sky's cleared up, the undead are gone, and... that's it; unlike the other three regions, nothing's unlocked that can only be done after lifting the curse. It might seem fitting at first, since the land was filled with the dead as a result of the curse and now it's empty of the dead. But there are two people in the area: Pamela and her dad. You'd think there'd be some kind of minigame or sidequest involving the two of them, now that the undead that were the reason Pamela's dad brought them there in the first place are gone. But nope; nothing. Now, there's something that the 3DS remake could've added: something to do in Ikana after lifting the curse.

I had noticed that as well...but alas.  

Edited July 28, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

I liked it, personally—thought it was both an interesting and open-ended puzzle.  I also liked that you could cut bits of it out on future playthroughs, the way it's designed.  Also liked the ambiance the darkness gave it.

I mean, it doesn't make much sense from a logical perspective—the 3DS actually tweaked it by adding a hole above the flower.

Igos du Ikana himself, especially, is one of my favorite bosses in the 3D games (having not played Skyward Sword or Breath of the Wild)—he's how Ganondorf should have been, IMO.  He's bouncing around all over the place, blocking a lot of your swipes, has a wide variety of attacks (close-range swing, mid-range breath, long-range head)...imagine having a fight like that for OoT Ganondorf!

His claim was that you had to "awkwardly run along the mouth of the cave", and that Deku Hopping was "broken"...neither of which was true.  My point stands,IMO.

Indeed.

Cool!

Always a good plan, having some Chateau to slam!

I wish Gomess showed up more often—that's the one with the crow and scythe.

You found it fun?  That's good—me the camera was too difficult for me to work with to enjoy.  Didn't enjoy voiding out, either...but I warned you of that last one, huh?

Hence why she gave it away 😛 !

I had noticed that as well...but alas.  

I never said I disliked it; I just said that I disliked certain things about it. I understand having a bit of darkness for ambiance (I already said that I liked the darkness in the Gyorg fight), but there are some important differences between the two: for the Gyorg fight, you know about Gyorg and a cutscene plays when it releases minions, there's just enough light that you can find Gyorg if you're looking for him despite him blending in with the darkness. With Beneath the Well, while you can see the enemies, the shadows of the wallmasters, and the traps for the most part, it is an area where you are navigating in the dark while knowing nothing about what's in the room, wallmasters looming in some of the rooms, spike traps, etc. One thing that spells it out to me is that there's one room with spike traps that you can bypass with a deku flower, but I didn't do so out of fear of being spotted by the Gibdo without the Gibdo mask and because I couldn't see if there was anything above the traps or not.

Well, it does make some sense: you beat the turtle things back in the swamp by burrowing into a flower and using the force from flying out under them to destroy their weakspots (which I didn't find intuitive, but nonetheless sets a precedent about flying out from a deku flower being a strong upward force), not to mention the precedent for avoiding attacks by burrowing into a flower. Having a hole over the flower would be more intuitive, but it does take away part of the point of the puzzle, so I'd say that's a bit of a trade-off.

I quite liked Ocarina of Time Ganondorf: his first fight was against a powerful spellcaster, and that has a nice contrast with him turning into Ganon and charging at you with twin swords. It might've been cool to see a Ganondorf that used both melee weapons and spellcasting in the same fight, and that's sadly something we still haven't seen in any 3D Zelda game, but I do like what we got. As for Igos du Ikana, he is a good boss fight; he just might've been better if there was something the player could actually do about his detached head attack. The moment he detaches his head, you may as well resign yourself to taking damage. I tried all kinds of things: blocking, running around & dodging with the bunny hood on, shooting the head with magic arrows, and even standing in the light, and the only one that did anything was standing in the light, and that simply changed it to, "he grabs you with the head and gets a free hit with the sword" to "he uses the head to push you out of the light; still doing some damage".

…I'm just saying that you tested it from the back of the cave that you appear from when leaving, and he tested it from the edge where you spawn after falling in the swamp and stated as such. I'm not saying that you were wrong about those two things; I'm saying that your demonstration of being able to hop to the lilypad doesn't invalidate his point that you can't do so from the edge of the cave; that's all. I wasn't talking about your larger point; just that one particular thing.

Thanks. One thing I particularly liked about it was that, most of the time with chateau romani, you're supposedly choosing between losing the first day and having finite mana, but in this case, I was easily able to have both the full cycle and infinite magic.

He probably would've been a better choice for the secret shrine than Garo Master. Speaking of Garo Master, what did you think of my jokingly-referring to the Garo as Shedinja?

I didn't experience voiding out at all; I just stayed relatively close to the central platform. As for the camera, I honestly didn't mind too much; in fact, I'm not sure how useful L-targeting would've been for twinmold given that they're slow-moving, extremely large, and move in all different directions.

Heh; fair point.

Yeah. It doesn't need too much, given that the place had two mandatory mini-dungeons and a ton of mini-bosses before the temple, unlike the other three regions, and it is the last region before taking on the moon. But I still think that even so much as one sidequest/mini-game involving Pamela and her father would've been enough.

 

Anyway, what do you think of my newest points about the last parts of the game?

Edited July 28, 2021 by vanguard333

[FionordeQuester]

On 7/27/2021 at 11:17 PM, vanguard333 said:

I never said I disliked it...I disliked certain things about it. I understand having a bit of darkness for ambiance...but...you know about Gyorg and a cutscene plays when it releases minions, there's just enough light that you can find [him]... With Beneath the Well, while you can see the enemies, the shadows of the wallmasters, and the traps for the most part, it is an area where you are navigating in the dark...[T]here's one room...you can bypass with a deku flower, but I didn't do so out of fear of being spotted by the Gibdo...and because I couldn't see if there was anything above the traps or not.

I can see that.

Quote

t does make some sense: you beat the turtle things back in the swamp by burrowing into a flower and using the force from flying out under them to destroy their weakspots...Having a hole over the flower [is] more intuitive, but it does take away part of the point of the puzzle...

Fair enough.

Quote

I quite liked Ocarina of Time Ganondorf: his first fight was against a powerful spellcaster, and that has a nice contrast with him turning into Ganon and charging at you with twin swords...[though it] might've been cool to see...both melee weapons and spell in the same fight...As for Igos du Ikana, he is a good boss fight; he just might've been better if there was something the player could actually do about his detached head attack...I tried all kinds of things...

You have to Goron Roll, then run back and forth across the room.  Avoid the body (which can damage you mid-roll), and don't leave the roll anymore than needed—you'll outlast the head.

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I'm saying that your [lilypad] demonstration...doesn't invalidate his point that you can't do so from the edge of the cave; that's all. I wasn't talking about your larger point...

Well unfortunately, N64 has the exact same "problem" as 3DS:

Deku Link doesn't need as much of a running start, but he still needs one.  If Nerrel had approached N64 like he did 3DS, he would've been just as stuck.

 

Quote

Thanks. One thing I particularly liked about it was that, most of the time with chateau romani, you're supposedly choosing between losing the first day and having finite mana, but in this case, I was easily able to have both the full cycle and infinite magic.

Isn't it great 😄 ?!

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He probably would've been a better choice for the secret shrine than Garo Master. Speaking of Garo Master, what did you think of my jokingly-referring to the Garo as Shedinja?

I didn't get the joke till you explained it, tbh.  Don't know much Pokemon lore 😛 !

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I didn't experience voiding out at all; I just stayed relatively close to the central platform. As for the camera, I honestly didn't mind too much; in fact, I'm not sure how useful L-targeting would've been for twinmold given that they're slow-moving, extremely large, and move in all different directions.

Well that's awesome.  I'm happy you had a good time 🙂 

 

Quote

Yeah. It doesn't need too much, given that the place had two mandatory mini-dungeons and a ton of mini-bosses before the temple, unlike the other three regions, and it is the last region before taking on the moon. But I still think that even so much as one sidequest/mini-game involving Pamela and her father would've been enough.

Mmm...I dunno.  If I'm the player, and I'm not speedrunning, I'm kinda just hankering to take down Majora.  Another side-quest may've distracted from that, y'know?

 

Quote

Anyway, what do you think of my newest points about the last parts of the game?

Oh, your points are always interesting to read.  Just can't always reply to them right away, that's all 😅 !

Edited July 29, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[FionordeQuester]

Sorry for the messed up formatting.  Guess I'll stay way from I & S brackets from now on, eh?

[vanguard333]

9 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

I didn't get the joke till you explained it, tbh.  Don't know much Pokemon lore 😛 !

Well that's awesome.  I'm happy you had a good time 🙂 

 

Mmm...I dunno.  If I'm the player, and I'm not speedrunning, I'm kinda just hankering to take down Majora.  Another side-quest may've distracted from that, y'know?

 

Oh, your points are always interesting to read.  Just can't always reply to them right away, that's all 😅 !

Ah, I see. Yeah; basically, Shedinja is a Pokémon that's literally just the discarded empty shell of a bug Pokémon. I just found it funny that the "Garo" that you fight in Majora's Mask are like that as well: they're just the clothing animated by Twinmold's curse; not the original Garo that wore those clothes.

Thanks.

That is a good point; now that you have the four boss masks, it's time to confront Majora, which you could theoretically do in the same cycle as the Twinmold fight. I guess I just found it a bit weird how empty Ikana Canyon is of anything to do after you defeat Twinmold.

I completely understand.

[FionordeQuester]

On 7/29/2021 at 12:27 PM, vanguard333 said:

Ah, I see. Yeah; basically, Shedinja is a Pokémon that's literally just the discarded empty shell of a bug Pokémon. I just found it funny that the "Garo" that you fight in Majora's Mask are like that as well: they're just the clothing animated by Twinmold's curse; not the original Garo that wore those clothes.

Gotcha!

On 7/29/2021 at 12:27 PM, vanguard333 said:

That is a good point; now that you have the four boss masks, it's time to confront Majora, which you could theoretically do in the same cycle as the Twinmold fight. I guess I just found it a bit weird how empty Ikana Canyon is of anything to do after you defeat Twinmold.

...You know, it's possible the scientist guy could've replaced Dampe in the Day 3 Grave-robbing thing?  Since he's all super thrilled about the paranormal?

On 7/29/2021 at 12:27 PM, vanguard333 said:

I completely understand.

Thx.  I've been much busier, since I left lockdown!

[vanguard333]

11 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

...You know, it's possible the scientist guy could've replaced Dampe in the Day 3 Grave-robbing thing?  Since he's all super thrilled about the paranormal?

Thx.  I've been much busier, since I left lockdown!

Oh, yeah; he could have.

You're welcome. I completely understand.

[Jotari]

17 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Gotcha!

...You know, it's possible the scientist guy could've replaced Dampe in the Day 3 Grave-robbing thing?  Since he's all super thrilled about the paranormal?

Thx.  I've been much busier, since I left lockdown!

While I like Dampe's position as the grave digger dedicated to Ikana who's also searching for their treasure, I do really like the idea of the scientists guy actually doing something after giving you the gibdo mask. Especially if it involves something that's post twinmold Termina since absolutely nothing changes about the land in that scenario. Maybe Dampe and Pamela's father teaming up for Grave Robbing. Or perhaps two alternate rewards for the quest, one if you've beaten Twinmold on that cycle and one if you haven't, the the sceintist replacing Dampe in the former.

[vanguard333]

On 7/31/2021 at 3:18 PM, Jotari said:

While I like Dampe's position as the grave digger dedicated to Ikana who's also searching for their treasure, I do really like the idea of the scientists guy actually doing something after giving you the gibdo mask. Especially if it involves something that's post twinmold Termina since absolutely nothing changes about the land in that scenario. Maybe Dampe and Pamela's father teaming up for Grave Robbing. Or perhaps two alternate rewards for the quest, one if you've beaten Twinmold on that cycle and one if you haven't, the sceintist replacing Dampe in the former.

That could definitely work. It could even be written as Pamela's Dad doing one last bit of research in the region before planning to head back to Termina proper (as Pamela said she was going to convince her father to leave Ikana).

By the way, what did you think of what I said about the game's ending?

[FionordeQuester]

Nothing much--I think you got it dead on!  Only thing I'll say is that these games are made for little kids, first and foremost.  It's ok to be a little blunt in your themes--especially when it involves a character that only showed up in Post (which the kid may not have necessarily played).

[vanguard333]

15 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Nothing much--I think you got it dead on!  Only thing I'll say is that these games are made for little kids, first and foremost.  It's ok to be a little blunt in your themes--especially when it involves a character that only showed up in Post (which the kid may not have necessarily played).

Oh; I don't think the bluntness of the themes was bad in this case, especially since, despite the bluntness, a lot of people still didn't understand the themes somehow; a lot of people focused on the bleak setting & atmosphere and interpreted the game as about futility, when the whole point is that Link's actions ultimately prove to not be futile, or they asked why Link is never shown to find Navi, only to miss that the lesson Skull Kid needs to learn (that his friends may have departed, but they have not ceased being friends) is one that Link also needed to learn. It honestly reminds me of how, whenever there's a satire, there's always a subset of the audience that doesn't realize that it's satire.

I will just say that any little kid that played through Majora's Mask is either very brave, or ended up having a lot of nightmares (I, unfortunately, was the latter). 

Anyway, I was wondering: what is the fight against Majora's Mask like if you don't use the Fierce Deity Mask?

Also, what do you think Link did after Majora's Mask? Continue looking for Navi, go back to Hyrule, or something else?

[FionordeQuester]

On 8/6/2021 at 7:38 PM, vanguard333 said:

Oh; I don't think the bluntness of the themes was bad in this case, especially since, despite the bluntness, a lot of people still didn't understand the themes somehow...

Ah, ok.

Quote

Anyway, I was wondering: what is the fight against Majora's Mask like if you don't use the Fierce Deity Mask?

Not too bad, IMO.  You'd get Mask from behind with Zora fins, Goron roll and ground pound for Incarnation, and catch Wrath in a loop of "Light Arrow + Run up and attack till it jumps behind you + Turn around + Repeat as needed".

It's also the only main boss to be completely unchanged between versions.

Quote

Also, what do you think Link did after Majora's Mask? Continue looking for Navi, go back to Hyrule, or something else?

Well, we know he becomes the Hero's Shade, because Hyrule Historian confirmed it...and he had descendants, so he obviously married.  But, he said he never got to pass on "the lessons of his life" to anyone...plus he's sad that no one remembered him as a hero.

So I guess he hooked up with Malon, had a bunch of girls who weren't interested in the sword, and just...lived his life, I guess.

Edited August 10, 2021 by FionordeQuester

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Not too bad, IMO.  You'd get Mask from behind with Zora fins, Goron roll and ground pound for Incarnation, and catch Wrath in a loop of "Light Arrow + Run up and attack till it jumps behind you + Turn around + Repeat as needed".

It's also the only main boss to be completely unchanged between versions.

I see.

Really? They didn't add an eyeball balloon to the different phases of the mask? …That's somehow not surprising.

 

4 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

Well, we know he becomes the Hero's Shade, because Hyrule Historian confirmed it...and he had descendants, so he obviously married.  But, he said he never got to pass on "the lessons of his life" to anyone...plus he's sad that no one remembered him as a hero.

So I guess he hooked up with Malon, had a bunch of girls who weren't interested in the sword, and just...lived his life, I guess.

Yeah; that sounds about right given what we know.

To be honest, I've never been a fan of the Twilight Princess Link being a direct descendant of the Hero of Time. Normally, I would probably like that idea of one Link being a descendant of a previous one, as that idea has a lot of potential, but it honestly struck me as yet another example of Twilight Princess trying to be "Ocarina of Time 2" rather than be Twilight Princess. I think Twilight Princess is a good game overall, but I feel that a lot of the stuff that was unique about it got underutilized and shoved aside in favour of emulating Ocarina of Time and contrasting Wind Waker; basically, I could never shake the feeling that it overcorrected in response to all that bile that got unfairly thrown at Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess Link being a direct descendant of the Hero of Time just strikes me as part of that emulation.

[Jotari]

Hero's Shade being Ocarina of Time Link is stupid. None of the techniques in Twilight Princess even exist in Ocarina of Time.

[vanguard333]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Hero's Shade being Ocarina of Time Link is stupid. None of the techniques in Twilight Princess even exist in Ocarina of Time.

To be fair, Link in Ocarina of Time was virtually untrained in swordsmanship outside of reading a couple of signs in the Kokiri Forest, and he shows a bit of improvement in Majora's Mask to reflect his experience, so it's quite likely that he accumulated these abilities and techniques later in life.

Plus, who else could it be? The Hyrule Castle Guard that everyone forgets (and who doesn't die in the child timeline since Ganon's attack doesn't happen)?

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

To be fair, Link in Ocarina of Time was virtually untrained in swordsmanship outside of reading a couple of signs in the Kokiri Forest, and he shows a bit of improvement in Majora's Mask to reflect his experience, so it's quite likely that he accumulated these abilities and techniques later in life.

What improvements does he show in Ocarina of Time? The sword combat is identical between the two near as I can see. The only thing functionally different about how Link plays beyond unique items is the weird little flip he does while jumping.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Plus, who else could it be? The Hyrule Castle Guard that everyone forgets (and who doesn't die in the child timeline since Ganon's attack doesn't happen)?

It doesn't need to be anyone. It could just be exactly what he is depicted to be in Twilight Princess. A mysterious hero passing on his skills. Though if it has to be a Link of some sort then The Minish Cap Link would be the most suitable considering that dojo training is actually featured in that game.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

What improvements does he show in Ocarina of Time? The sword combat is identical between the two near as I can see. The only thing functionally different about how Link plays beyond unique items is the weird little flip he does while jumping.

Poor wording on my part; I apologize. I just meant that in Majora's Mask they did try to make him come across as more experienced in general by adding stuff like that weird little flip he does while jumping; his swordsmanship is indeed largely unchanged.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It doesn't need to be anyone. It could just be exactly what he is depicted to be in Twilight Princess. A mysterious hero passing on his skills. Though if it has to be a Link of some sort then The Minish Cap Link would be the most suitable considering that dojo training is actually featured in that game.

True; it doesn't have to be anyone in particular. That said, I think Nintendo probably did have it in mind that the Hero's Shade was the Hero of Time even when they were making Twilight Princess, as it's yet another example of Twilight Princess trying to be "Ocarina of Time 2" rather than just being Twilight Princess.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Poor wording on my part; I apologize. I just meant that in Majora's Mask they did try to make him come across as more experienced in general by adding stuff like that weird little flip he does while jumping; his swordsmanship is indeed largely unchanged.

 

True; it doesn't have to be anyone in particular. That said, I think Nintendo probably did have it in mind that the Hero's Shade was the Hero of Time even when they were making Twilight Princess, as it's yet another example of Twilight Princess trying to be "Ocarina of Time 2" rather than just being Twilight Princess.

I think if that were the case there would actually be something in the way of specific reference to Ocarina of Time. Like they could have given him the gilded sword, or made the songs wolf Link howls only come exclusively from Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask (most actually do, but not all). Giving him Fierce Deity's armour would be another route to go down. Or have the spirit form of the hero resembling Epona instead of a golden wolf. But instead they did absolutely nothing to connect the Hero's Shade to Link (of any incarnation). He doesn't even have anything resembling Link's hat. The hero's shade was clearly designed to be a generic skeletal sensei, it was the fans who made it a connection to Link based on the Heroes Shade, well implying he has a past of some sort. And much like the timeline shenanigans it prompted Nintendo to come out and say "Yeah we totally planned that all along, now buy our book" years after the fact. Zero of the Heroe's Shade's design elements are shared with Ocarina of Time's Link, he doesn't even share the fact that Link has two functioning eyes. And sure Link could have lost an eye and got new weapons and armour and learned new techniques and become a werewolf after Majora's Mask, but that's basically fan fiction. None of the actual elements the Hero's Shade was designed with are actually derived from Ocarina of Time.