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Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)


FionordeQuester
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@Jotari Fair point. You're certainly right about any in-game connections between the Hero's Shade and the Hero of Time being very thin. I guess I always saw that idea of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time as something I wouldn't put past Nintendo (if that is the correct expression) given how far they went elsewhere to connect Twilight Princess to Ocarina of Time.

 

Anyway, going back to Majora's Mask, what do you think of my points about the game's ending?

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47 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

@Jotari Fair point. You're certainly right about any in-game connections between the Hero's Shade and the Hero of Time being very thin. I guess I always saw that idea of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time as something I wouldn't put past Nintendo (if that is the correct expression) given how far they went elsewhere to connect Twilight Princess to Ocarina of Time.

 

Anyway, going back to Majora's Mask, what do you think of my points about the game's ending?

They don't actually connect Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time that much on a narrative level. They obviously do on a stylistic level, but on a narrative level the connections aren't that much thicker than the Hero's Shade. Ganondorf's backstory in the game, as a thief who tried to take over Hyrule and was executed can kind of be Ocarina of Time if you squint at it hard enough or invent fan fiction as to what happens afterwards in the child timeline, and the Interlopers, the predecessors of the Twili could maybe have been involved in that nebulous ill defined war that made Ocarina of Time Link an orphan, but again the connections are so thin as to basically be fan fiction. It was only after Twilight Princess did Nintendo start making games with intentional timeline placement to pander to the timeline speculating audience. Compare and contrast the lack of (narrative) connections to Ocarina of Time in Twilight Princess and the very obvious narrative connections to The Wind Waker (and Phantom Hour Glass) in Spirit Tracks.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

They don't actually connect Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time that much on a narrative level. They obviously do on a stylistic level, but on a narrative level the connections aren't that much thicker than the Hero's Shade. Ganondorf's backstory in the game, as a thief who tried to take over Hyrule and was executed can kind of be Ocarina of Time if you squint at it hard enough or invent fan fiction as to what happens afterwards in the child timeline, and the Interlopers, the predecessors of the Twili could maybe have been involved in that nebulous ill defined war that made Ocarina of Time Link an orphan, but again the connections are so thin as to basically be fan fiction. It was only after Twilight Princess did Nintendo start making games with intentional timeline placement to pander to the timeline speculating audience. Compare and contrast the lack of (narrative) connections to Ocarina of Time in Twilight Princess and the very obvious narrative connections to The Wind Waker (and Phantom Hour Glass) in Spirit Tracks.

I was mainly meaning in a stylistic and gameplay sense; that the game was very much trying to emulate Ocarina of Time, largely in response to the many fans that complained about Wind Waker being "cartoony" and "too different", and demanded a return to something more like Ocarina of Time (which is a viewpoint I personally never understood as I thought Wind Waker was really cool and I always thought variety was a strength of the Zelda series).

Eh; while I agree that they don't connect that much on a narrative level, Nintendo had been making timeline placements long before Twilight Princess, albeit to a lesser extent than later games. Wind Waker, for example, makes it very clear that it follows from the timeline Link left at the end of Ocarina of Time; i.e. the adult timeline. It constantly refers to the old hero as having "returned to his own time" (i.e. gone back to being a kid) and the basement of Hyrule shows portraits of the OoT sages. Even Ocarina of Time was supposed to be the Imprisoning War from the backstory of A Link to the Past and was even advertised as such.

As for Twilight Princess specifically, it placed itself as being 100 years after OoT in the child timeline long before Hyrule Historia was a thing that existed. Eiji Aonuma even did an interview saying that the scene of Ganondorf's execution took place several years after Ocarina of Time (unfortunately, I cannot find when this interview happened, but based on what he says in the interview, it reads like it occurred long before they created the full Zelda timeline for Hyrule Historia, and I found separate evidence saying that Aonuma confirmed Twilight Princess' timeline placement back in 2006).

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12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I was mainly meaning in a stylistic and gameplay sense; that the game was very much trying to emulate Ocarina of Time, largely in response to the many fans that complained about Wind Waker being "cartoony" and "too different", and demanded a return to something more like Ocarina of Time (which is a viewpoint I personally never understood as I thought Wind Waker was really cool and I always thought variety was a strength of the Zelda series).

Eh; while I agree that they don't connect that much on a narrative level, Nintendo had been making timeline placements long before Twilight Princess, albeit to a lesser extent than later games. Wind Waker, for example, makes it very clear that it follows from the timeline Link left at the end of Ocarina of Time; i.e. the adult timeline. It constantly refers to the old hero as having "returned to his own time" (i.e. gone back to being a kid) and the basement of Hyrule shows portraits of the OoT sages. Even Ocarina of Time was supposed to be the Imprisoning War from the backstory of A Link to the Past and was even advertised as such.

As for Twilight Princess specifically, it placed itself as being 100 years after OoT in the child timeline long before Hyrule Historia was a thing that existed. Eiji Aonuma even did an interview saying that the scene of Ganondorf's execution took place several years after Ocarina of Time (unfortunately, I cannot find when this interview happened, but based on what he says in the interview, it reads like it occurred long before they created the full Zelda timeline for Hyrule Historia, and I found separate evidence saying that Aonuma confirmed Twilight Princess' timeline placement back in 2006).

There were vague references before, and plenty of contradictions abound (Seven Maidens descended from Seven Sages who sealed Ganondorf? Hmm, none of those maidens look like a Goron or a Zora to me, the original Seven Sages were also all men while in Ocarina of Time it's a female majority group, and where were the fellow thieves Ganondorf murdered before taking the Triforce, the fact that he obtained it with literal blood stained hands was a pretty big part of the back story of ALTTP, were they hiding just off screen in the white void in Ocarina of Time? The game was made afterwards, if they really wanted to adapt the lore they absolutely could have included it, or at least implied it if censorship was an issue). It was only after Twilight Princess did they start outright designing games to be placed in the timeline (though to be fair that first contradiction I pointed out kind of applied to A LInk Between Worlds too). Thankfully it seems they've dispatched with that in more recent years.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

There were vague references before, and plenty of contradictions abound (Seven Maidens descended from Seven Sages who sealed Ganondorf? Hmm, none of those maidens look like a Goron or a Zora to me, the original Seven Sages were also all men while in Ocarina of Time it's a female majority group, and where were the fellow thieves Ganondorf murdered before taking the Triforce, the fact that he obtained it with literal blood stained hands was a pretty big part of the back story of ALTTP, were they hiding just off screen in the white void in Ocarina of Time? The game was made afterwards, if they really wanted to adapt the lore they absolutely could have included it, or at least implied it if censorship was an issue). It was only after Twilight Princess did they start outright designing games to be placed in the timeline (though to be fair that first contradiction I pointed out kind of applied to A LInk Between Worlds too). Thankfully it seems they've dispatched with that in more recent years.

I never said Nintendo was good at continuity; honestly, I doubt anyone would say that Nintendo is good at continuity. After all, they forgot that Link and Bowser Jr. are supposed to be left-handed. I agree that it's probably for the best that BOTW all but ditched the timeline by being purposefully vague.

…Now that I think about it, we should probably get back to talking about Majora's Mask; it is in the topic's name after all.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Having played up until the Stone Tower Temple, I'll say that Majora's Mask 3D was good in a lot of ways and bad in a few.

The Good

  • Better graphics, obviously, just like OoT3D.
  • More convenient save system.
  • More expansive Bomber's Notebook, with more characters.
  • Improved inventory management over OoT3D.
  • Added fishing holes, with a wide variety of fish to catch.
  • Extra Empty Bottles.

The Bad

  • The clock doesn't stop moving in the fishing holes, which makes it kinda hard to relax and focus on fishing.
  • Zora Link's swimming controls feel worse, particularly the dolphin jump.
  • The revamped boss fights are interesting in concept, but the added eyeball weakpoints feel artificial. Gyorg's boss fight is also much more of a pain now, not to mention time-consuming.
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3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Having played up until the Stone Tower Temple, I'll say that Majora's Mask 3D was good in a lot of ways and bad in a few.

The Good

  • Better graphics, obviously, just like OoT3D.
  • More convenient save system.
  • More expansive Bomber's Notebook, with more characters.
  • Improved inventory management over OoT3D.
  • Added fishing holes, with a wide variety of fish to catch.
  • Extra Empty Bottles.

The Bad

  • The clock doesn't stop moving in the fishing holes, which makes it kinda hard to relax and focus on fishing.
  • Zora Link's swimming controls feel worse, particularly the dolphin jump.
  • The revamped boss fights are interesting in concept, but the added eyeball weakpoints feel artificial. Gyorg's boss fight is also much more of a pain now, not to mention time-consuming.

I admit that I haven't played Majora's Mask 3D, but, from what I've seen of it, while it does look good in a lot of areas, there are a few places where I don't like the graphics:

  1. The Moon. The moon largely looks goofy to me, whereas in the original, while it didn't look necessarily scary, it did at least not detract from the uneasy feeling of looking up in the sky and seeing it inch ever closer to Termina. Plus, there was some ambiguity in its expression; it could be angry, sad, or in pain.
  2. Deku Link. In the N64 version, he actually looks like a creature made from timber and bark. In the 3DS version, he looks like a living Play-Doh doll.
  3. The clock. Admittedly, changing it from a rotating clock to a bar was probably pragmatic for the small 3DS screens, but I still prefer the rotating clock of the N64 version.
  4. Serious overbrightening, not unlike Ocarina of Time 3D. Again, this one was probably pragmatic because the game was being remade for a portable console, and most of the time it's not bad. But it seriously ruins moments that really need to be dark, such as the Gyorg fight. One of the things about the Gyorg fight that made it interesting was that it hid well in the darkness; making the fight kind-of like fighting an ambush predator.

But, then again, I'm someone who honestly doesn't mind the N64 graphics. In fact, I honestly think that, in an odd way, it's actually aged well. I once saw a video explaining an eerie effect that occurs from watching a horror film on VHS that you don't get from watching the same film in HD, and playing the N64 of Majora's Mask recently reminded me of what the person was talking about: the N64 graphics honestly complement the eerie and surreal aspects of the game very well.

I heard about how the owl statues are a permanent save in the 3DS remake rather than a suspend-save. That's fine, I guess; and having that option is certainly good for accessibility. However, removing the option to save by going back to the Dawn of the First Day was not good. I know of multiple people who played the remake, went back to the Dawn of the First Day before shutting the game off, and then wondered why their progress was gone. Not to mention, even without the problem it causes for experienced players who are used to the old save system, there's just something about locking in your progress by ending a cycle, and the game resuming on, "Dawn of the First Day: 72 Hours Remain" that you don't get from other save methods.

More expansive Bomber's Notebook is certainly good, but I heard that now the game goes through a lengthy cinematic every time a character gets added to the notebook instead of the old and quick notice.

I didn't play either 3DS remake, so I can't say anything about that one, and there isn't much I can say about the rest either.

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