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1 hour ago, NegativeExponents- said:

@Baldrick There is no male npc in Heroes that is just background and then dies without ever becoming an ally or being fought against like Leila that I am aware of. She is seriously one of the biggest nobodies in the series.

I think that’s a rather unfair way to describe Leila’s role in FE7. The emotional impact of her death is very high and I imagine many people were disappointed she couldn’t be recruited. Iirc, Leila is actually fairly popular, at least compared to Elibe characters who aren’t in Heroes.

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I don't know enough about Reinhardt but I do know he's at least fought to some capacity

So is Brigand Boss, but that doesn’t make him important. Apart from being Olwen’s brother, Reinhardt has nothing to distinguish him from the other generic named midbosses in Thracia.

As a fan of Thracia who hoped Heroes could give Thracia more visibility and potentially inspire an Echoes-style remake, I’m disappointed Reinhardt has become more popular than Leif.

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That was seriously just the answer to the question you yourself asked. "What would change if Nifl was male?" nothing other than provide more diversity.

Well, I was more looking for an answer as to “why does diversity enhance the user experience for you”.

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But on the topic of it, you're clearly not as bothered by the lack of it like some others are as you proceeded to make snide comments about characters "reproductive organs" 

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and representation not mattering when you had asked what would change had Nifl been male instead. Which is fine. You don't have to be.
But if you don't care, why even come here and make those sorts of comments to someone that does?

@XRay was talking about how strong Ares was, and your response was “well he’s a demote so he doesn’t sell”. That has no relevance to Ares’ strength as a unit. Which made me think that whether a unit is a man or a woman has no actual effect in gameplay, either. You may take it as snide, but it was purely an observation. I said it matter-of-fairly, and I definitely did not say it like “lol it’s just jpegs bro”.

Many people in this thread seem to be going beyond venting, and criticizing IS for having female bias. I’m not a fan of it, but it increases the profits/longevity of the game and thus allows more characters overall to get into Heroes.

 

Edited by Baldrick

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2 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Apart from being Olwen’s brother, Reinhardt has nothing to distinguish him from the other generic named midbosses in Thracia.

The game does hype him up to be Tordo the Thunder Crusader Reincarnate. And Julius is jealous of him, although we don't know if Ishtar has any affections for him, nor if Reinhardt has anything more than a knight-liege professional relationship towards her. Oh, and Kempf has a one-sided rivalry towards him, that we never see Reinhardt acknowledge, because Reinhardt barely appears in any scenes prior to the one battle against him.

And Reinhardt is... supposed to be sympathetic somehow? I don't get it, because Reinhardt is never shown to hesitate at his orders, nor do anything else to suggest he isn't unflinchingly devoted to his child-hunting empire outside of a little filial love for his sister. 

He is more than next-to-generic, if still a lacking enemy character-wise if you ask me. 

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13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The game does hype him up to be Tordo the Thunder Crusader Reincarnate. And Julius is jealous of him, although we don't know if Ishtar has any affections for him, nor if Reinhardt has anything more than a knight-liege professional relationship towards her. Oh, and Kempf has a one-sided rivalry towards him, that we never see Reinhardt acknowledge, because Reinhardt barely appears in any scenes prior to the one battle against him.

There is a lot of hype and potential to his character, but it doesn’t have any payoff. 

13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And Reinhardt is... supposed to be sympathetic somehow? I don't get it, because Reinhardt is never shown to hesitate at his orders, nor do anything else to suggest he isn't unflinchingly devoted to his child-hunting empire outside of a little filial love for his sister. 

Olwen’s ending says she was ashamed at his cowardice, but as far as the Camus archetype goes, he doesn’t inspire much sympathy.

On another note, what is your opinion on Leila?

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27 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

There is a lot of hype and potential to his character, but it doesn’t have any payoff. 

Not disagreeing on this, he is all thunderous noise and no lighting strikes on the character front. 

28 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

On another note, what is your opinion on Leila?

She works in her role as an NPC. I can't say I love her, but she isn't bad at all. She does a good job of adding a touch of story importance to a minor character in Matthew (and I did get the unexpectedly touching line of Hector saying he'll bury her next to Matthew as a kid), lesser characters getting story appearances is good. Jaffar's scripted Silencer on her did make her death more dramatic than if she hadn't been killed via gameplay.

It is nice seeing her in FEH, given I'm aware that she had non-generic stats and growths unused in FE7 (as did Bramimond, and Uther).

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And Reinhardt is... supposed to be sympathetic somehow? I don't get it, because Reinhardt is never shown to hesitate at his orders, nor do anything else to suggest he isn't unflinchingly devoted to his child-hunting empire outside of a little filial love for his sister.

I'm not sure if I'd say that he's supposed to be sympathetic, tbh. Characters like August and even his own sister by the end of Thracia seem to view him more harshly than some of the other Camus archetypes were judged in their own games. Rather, he seems like he was meant to be portrayed as a more "realistic" villain. You know, someone who's not a hate sink douchecanoe and can be taken more seriously, but is still in the wrong.

The things about Reinhardt that make him "sympathetic" come more from conjecture based on psychology and IRL medieval systems and outright headcanons. He doesn't have a lot of characterization, so the game doesn't really outright contradict a lot of those conjectures and headcanons.

Edited by Sunwoo

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I agree about finding Leila really memorable. Probably helped that it was my first FE game and I was like 10 at the time, but that's not too unusual. 

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12 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It is nice seeing her in FEH, given I'm aware that she had non-generic stats and growths unused in FE7 (as did Bramimond, and Uther).

So, following the pattern... Uther confirmed???

12 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I'm not sure if I'd say that he's supposed to be sympathetic, tbh. Characters like August and even his own sister by the end of Thracia seem to view him more harshly than some of the other Camus archetypes were judged in their own games. Rather, he seems like he was meant to be portrayed as a more "realistic" villain. You know, someone who's not a hate sink douchecanoe and can be taken more seriously, but is still in the wrong.

Tbh I'm glad he was treated like that by the other characters, because that's what all the Camus ever should be treated like. This attitude of "my country, no matter what horrible things it does" (Bryce, Camus, Shiharam, Galle and so on), or sometimes "my liege/beloved/family no matter what horrible things they do" (Catherine, Selena FE8, Ishtar, Xander, the Reed brothers and so on) is such a non-sensical attitude and the Blue Lions did a nice job lampshading how stupid it is to follow orders you hate and know to be wrong just because loyalty demands it.

Fuck loyalty. Fuck the fake kind of loyalty of the Camus archetypes, who torture themselves while hating what they are doing every step of the way. Just defect, you imbeciles! The moral way of being a Camus is being Duessel, Arion or Olwen. At some point you have to realize: "you know what? No, this shit is fucked up, I won't have any part in this, kill me if you must".

In my opinion, the likes of Jarod, Petrine, Aversa, Michalis, Clarisse and even freaking Iago are way more morally righteous than any Camus idiot. They at least believe in what they are doing, and think their country/liege is in the right, rather than performing actions they believe to be atrocities out of some sort of obligaton. The Camuses deserve to become infamous and they should be ashamed. So ashamed they can't show their face anymore, like Sirius. The only Camuses who are a bit forgivable are Eldigan who was just so stupid that he thought he could convince Chagall, but at least he didn't follow orders to the bitter end, and Mustafa who was being blackmailed into following orders.

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4 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

So, following the pattern... Uther confirmed???

I wish. I sorta like him, and I like how Hector reacts after his passing. But we need Oswin first! The only good/great GBA armor unit.

5 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

The moral way of being a Camus is being Duessel, Arion or Olwen. At some point you have to realize: "you know what? No, this shit is fucked up, I won't have any part in this, kill me if you must".

Arion didn't flip until well into the final battle. And because he didn't betray earlier, his country was thoroughly conquered when it didn't have to be. Heck, he didn't even have to "betray"anything. Travant said he was free to do whatever he wanted with Thracia, and the Grannvalian Empire had seemingly nothing to do with his choice to war with Seliph. It was a decision entirely based upholding his father's dreams of a south-led united Thracia, which again, Travant had said he needn't do. Although it is highly understandable that when Daddy stares longingly at the verdant north every waking minute, you'd want to do as he would've done even if he's dead. I still facepalm at Arion's foolish decision, but I can't say I hate him for it.

 

I'm feeling like this topic is getting a little off topic now. But maybe that means it has reached the natural end of its lifespan.

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1 hour ago, GrandeRampel said:

Tbh I'm glad he was treated like that by the other characters, because that's what all the Camus ever should be treated like. This attitude of "my country, no matter what horrible things it does" (Bryce, Camus, Shiharam, Galle and so on), or sometimes "my liege/beloved/family no matter what horrible things they do" (Catherine, Selena FE8, Ishtar, Xander, the Reed brothers and so on) is such a non-sensical attitude and the Blue Lions did a nice job lampshading how stupid it is to follow orders you hate and know to be wrong just because loyalty demands it.

I think what's worst is that most Camus characters are knowingly steering a course that will lead to the destruction of their country which is at odds with the loyalty they claim to have towards it. Camus knows his actions will cause Grust to become subjugated by an evil dragon, Eldigan knows he's fighting for a king that plunges his country into civil wars for the sheer fun of it and Bryce is aware Ashnard is bringing Daein to ruin.

They all come across as hypocrites who are more in love with the idea of them loving their country instead of actually loving their country. 

In that sense I've always found it easier to sympathize with the Ishtar versions of the archetype. They seem a lot more self aware about it all. They don't delude themselves into thinking they are on the right path but they just don't have the emotional strength to leave their loved ones. Ishtar for example loves Julius and is loved back by him which makes it tragic that her affection so obviously isn't good for her or the continent. Being unwilling to turn against a loved one is a lot more nuanced than a patriot stubbornly driving his country to its destruction because he likes the idea of himself as a patriot.

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think what's worst is that most Camus characters are knowingly steering a course that will lead to the destruction of their country which is at odds with the loyalty they claim to have towards it. Camus knows his actions will cause Grust to become subjugated by an evil dragon, Eldigan knows he's fighting for a king that plunges his country into civil wars for the sheer fun of it and Bryce is aware Ashnard is bringing Daein to ruin.

They all come across as hypocrites who are more in love with the idea of them loving their country instead of actually loving their country. 

In that sense I've always found it easier to sympathize with the Ishtar versions of the archetype. They seem a lot more self aware about it all. They don't delude themselves into thinking they are on the right path but they just don't have the emotional strength to leave their loved ones. Ishtar for example loves Julius and is loved back by him which makes it tragic that her affection so obviously isn't good for her or the continent. Being unwilling to turn against a loved one is a lot more nuanced than a patriot stubbornly driving his country to its destruction because he likes the idea of himself as a patriot.

Yeah I agree that Camuses who just love a person who is evil too much to betray them (even Xander with his dad, despite being by far the dumbest of his kind) are a little better than the dumb patriots Camus.

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18 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

There is no male npc in Heroes that is just background and then dies without ever becoming an ally or being fought against like Leila that I am aware of. She is seriously one of the biggest nobodies in the series.

Leila is genuinely more memorable than half the series' playable casts. Just because a character never becomes playable doesn't make them a nobody.

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5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm feeling like this topic is getting a little off topic now. But maybe that means it has reached the natural end of its lifespan.

I agree.  Unfortunately, this site doesn't allow the OP (me in this case) the ability to close the topic, which is stupid.  Would've done so already if I could.

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@Baldrick She was, especially during CYL 4 when she got a sudden spike in popularity becoming the 4th most popular Blazing Sword character that wasn't in the game yet, only behind Nils, Erk, and Athos. Even among the playable Heroes cast, only Nino and Ninian were above her. Of course, her popularity plummeted after that but that's natural for most characters after being added.

From what I've seen so far, Reinhardt is in no way comparable to Brigand Boss. Brigand Boss is just some generic that kidnapped Silque that for some reason was made a candidate for CYL despite IS not even bothering to name him. Reinhardt seems just a tad more important.

On 7/21/2021 at 8:16 PM, Baldrick said:

Well, I was more looking for an answer as to “why does diversity enhance the user experience for you”.

I'm not sure there's any answer I can give that can satisfy someone who just doesn't care and actively fights against any ideas for change. And I've also explained Ares already and how his strength had no relevance in what I myself was talking about and am not interested in going in circles with that only because, again, my answer didn't satisfy you.

7 hours ago, Florete said:

Leila is genuinely more memorable than half the series' playable casts. Just because a character never becomes playable doesn't make them a nobody.

You know, that was my bad. I clearly let things get too personal when I brought her to the mix and did not mean punch down other people's liked characters just because I personally disagree with that take of her being more memorable than half of the cast.

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A powerful male free unit like Ares challenges the idea that IS always makes premium units are powerful and free units are weak. It is a general trend because premium units are the only ones being “sold”, but there are enough examples of strong free units that we can conclude IS just does whatever they feel like, instead of deliberately making every free unit weak. There are several underwhelming premium units of both genders around, so they’re not even deliberately making every premium unit strong.

I don’t claim to be immovable. But in the face of all this evidence, any argument for a gender conspiracy must be very strong.

 

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29 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

It is a general trend because premium units are the only ones being “sold”, but there are enough examples of strong free units that we can conclude IS just does whatever they feel like, instead of deliberately making every free unit weak.

A little bit off-topic, but making every free unit weak is, in actuality, bad for business. Whales keep the game running, but communities keep the whales around. If free players have nothing to play with, they'll leave, and whales won't continue to pay for a dead game.

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5 hours ago, Florete said:

A little bit off-topic, but making every free unit weak is, in actuality, bad for business. Whales keep the game running, but communities keep the whales around. If free players have nothing to play with, they'll leave, and whales won't continue to pay for a dead game.

F2Ps can get plenty of strong rare units, especially with the spark system.

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6 hours ago, Othin said:

F2Ps can get plenty of strong rare units, especially with the spark system.

That didn't always exist and it doesn't change anything in this case anyway.

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So ... to touch upon the original topic slightly, I do think I have a reason as to why Nifl's inclusion on the Fates banner bugs me. It's a reason consisting of a few parts.

1. In general, I've not been too big of a fan of the OCs lately -- male or female. My tolerance for them ended around when book 4 started, and book 5 hasn't done much to change my mind. Heroes' format is not very conducive to good, in-depth story-writing. And it wasn't until recently in book 5 that characters from previous parts even got to show up in the actual story chapters. I wasn't super happy about Nifl once she was revealed in the datamine, and I would have felt similarly had Nifl been a dude. We could do with less OCs.

2. Nifl didn't need to be added this soon, honestly. If she had to be included in a normal banner, she could've waited until this "Ice and Fire" TT series had ended. Apparently, pretty female characters get to be added at earliest opportunity while male characters and Hel (who is not conventionally attractive) can wait for months and months on end.

3. They put Nifl on a Fates banner, a game that REALLY didn't need an OC to help it sell. Even if a lot of its hard hitters are already in the game, Fates is recognizable enough to most people that it'd still sell. Especially since Charlotte, Nyx, AND Orochi were all on it at the same time. There are games that we're worried about not getting banners in the future because they're running out of women. I'd tolerate Nifl being on a future Echoes banner or Binding Blade banner ... or heck, even Thracia I guess because it's such an unknown, but Fates???? On the same banner they've blown through their three most popular female characters??? Da fuck?

Honestly, this is a more Nifl-specific complaint than the banner being made up solely of women. But if wants to give the majority of its shiny new characters with cool OP weapons and skills to female characters, while making most of their male characters demotes or skill fodder with no prf, there's not anything we can do other than cynically wonder if things would be different if things were reversed.

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Females certainly do NOT get more fancy nor powerful stuff. The girls may get more exposure and representation, but in terms of combat performance, they are not better. The only role where females outperform males is in the support role.

If we just look at the last ten New Heroes Foci and ten Special Heroes Foci, the boys get as much fun stuff as the girls.

On 7/19/2021 at 12:27 PM, XRay said:

While females are represented more. I am going to disagree with the sentiment that males get shafted.

New Heroes Foci/GHB

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Book V Mid:
Zeke is hardly a central character, and he still got a Distant Counter Weapon with freaking guaranteed follow-up on top.
BVM!Palla is basically Altina 2.0, and while she is not bad, I would not say she is any better than Zeke.
Ferdinand is not any worse than Tatiana; he got Threaten Atk/Def and she got Atk Opening. Both are meh.

Forces of Will:
FOW!Dimitri is Firesweeper with Canto, and you can use him as a Galeforcer or have him wreck tanks with Ruptured Sky. We have a unit that can go toe to toe against FOW!Edelgard right on the same Focus and most players hardly even acknowledge he exists.
FOW!M!Morgan is not any worse than FOW!F!Morgan.
Orson is meh.

Bond of Trust:
Pent is pretty tame, as he just Pulses himself and allied mages, but Farina is nowhere near awe inspiring either. Pent at least was unique. Farina is just a ball of stats that anyone can emulate.
Louise is a female but all she gets is just good stat distribution.
Erk and Sonia are meh, but at least Erk got Spd Opening.

Seeds of Fódlan:
While I agree Ingrid is the star of the Focus here, Dedue got the meta defining Save skill. In terms of having an impact on the meta, Dedue being Save fodder is far significant than a better lance Firesweeper.
Mariane is pretty good.
Linhardt got high Res as a support unit, so that is good.
Solon is meh, but he got something unique, and with future Refinement, could be decent.

Enduring Legacy:
We got a Lex who got demoted with a freaking Meister axe.
Erinys is not horrible, she is pretty good, but TSOIA!Palla exists already and is slightly better in my opinion.
Azelle is good in Arena.
Annand and Díthorba are just plain meh.

Shared Purpose:
Asbel is a Blazing nuke.
Sara allows clerics to be better Firesweepers I guess, but you might as well just use Firesweep archers who are better and cheaper to build.
Ronan shits on mages, but he is pretty niche other wise.
Miranda is meh.
See Solon above for Veld.

Book V Begins:
Caellach is no more shafted than Natasha.
As for the 5* exclusives, they are all pretty good.

Princess of Bern:
Guinevere is the star of the show, and she is pretty decent, but she is far from top tier.
Everyone else is pretty bland.
Galle is meh.

Goddess's Servants:
Flayn is meta defining.
Shamir is really good.
Catherine and Seteth are meh.
Nemesis is meh, but does have something unique.

Despair and Hope:
Shanon is a Blazing nuke. He also brings Deadeye to the table.
Jill is not bad.
Gatrie has some good fodder.
Illyana is meh.
Petrine is pretty decent.

 

If we just look at the last ten Foci, males clearly do NOT get shafted compared to females.

Special Heros/TT

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Summer's Dream:
SD!Caeda, SD!Freyr, and SD!Freya are all pretty good.
SD!Ogma got Atk/Spd Solo; SD!Norne got nothing outside of good stat distribution.

Summer's Vibrance:
SV!Hilda is really good.
SV!Ashe is decent.
SV!Caspar and SV!Mercedes got good fodder, but are pretty meh as units.

Bridal Grace:
BG!Catria is pretty bonkers.
BG!Saul brings in more Recovery and got C Duel Cavalry.
The rest got some decent fodder but are otherwise meh as units.

Childhood Encounter:
Everyone is good, including the male demote and TT units

Willful Rabbits:
WR!Severa and WR!Myrrh are pretty good.
Everyone else got good fodder and decent stats, but are pretty meh as units.

Love of a King:
All three main units brought along meta defining skills, and LOAK!Gustav's bulk with the right team composition surpasses that of BH!Ike.
LOAK!Alfonse brought Bold Fighter.
LOAK!Veronica does not really have anything to offer.

Dark Desert Rituals
DDR!Dorothea is very strong with the right set up.
DDR!Raphael is one of the best Firesweep archers due to his monstrous Atk and access to Bold Fighter.
Everyone else is okay.

New Year: ω Special Heroes
The dudes do kind of suck compared to the girls in this one.

A Festive Miracle:
AFM!Altina is pretty good.
AFM!Sephiran is not anything amazing, but he introduce Recovery skills and got a pretty good support Weapon.
The rest are meh.

In the Moment:
ITM!Lyn is pretty bonkers, but all other units are also pretty good and got decent default kits.

 

Similarly for Special Heroes, dudes like LOAK!Gustav, DDR!Raphael, and SD!Freyr got some pretty good and/or broken stuff.

 

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59 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

1. In general, I've not been too big of a fan of the OCs lately -- male or female. My tolerance for them ended around when book 4 started, and book 5 hasn't done much to change my mind. Heroes' format is not very conducive to good, in-depth story-writing. And it wasn't until recently in book 5 that characters from previous parts even got to show up in the actual story chapters. I wasn't super happy about Nifl once she was revealed in the datamine, and I would have felt similarly had Nifl been a dude. We could do with less OCs.

There's always been a bloat in the amount of Heroes OC's which comes with several problems. Most importantly is that there are far too many oc's than the game knows what to do with. We could already see this as far back in book 2 where Hrid really didn't have any reason to be present, and where everyone completely disappeared when book 2 had ended. Even main characters like Sharena are drowned out by all the other OC's that need to be present. 

But it also renders the Fire Emblem cast as non entities in their own crossover. The story is completely oc centric with Xander and Lucina being the only Fire Emblem characters who have a role to play. None of the lords or villains play a role in any of the books. Everyone who shows up at best gets a random like like ''Hello I'm Lugh and I'm a good boy'' regardless of the context. Lugh says this despite being enslaved by an army of the death. Annette similarly says something about her family situation while enslaved by the nightmare army, and no villain ever complaints about playing second fiddle to the OC villains. Their one token line each chapter is often more distracting than appealing since it just shows how poorly integrated they are in the story.  The various Fire Emblem characters might as well not be there since their presence is poorly explained, never addressed by team Askr and certainly never addressed by the characters themselves. 

The story would have been far better if the playable Heroes had a role to play in the story, and if the Fire Emblem villains were the enemies of team Askr. So far the Fire Emblem aspect of this crossover feels really half baked. Forging Bonds is the only mode where characters from various games can really interact with each other and even this is usually very tame.

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

We could already see this as far back in book 2 where Hrid really didn't have any reason to be present,

 

The OC bloat was inevitable as OCs became summonable, instead of fixed units like the Askr trio. Not only does it break the logic of the game (Fjorm et al. can be sent home? Sent home to where, exactly?), but it encourages a quantity-over-quality approach to OCs. If they're summonable, they're sellable, and characters don't need to be well developed to be popular (e.g. Lif ranking 7th in CYL before he had even appeared in the story).

Though Hrid is an example of what would happen if things were reversed. He was made summonable very quickly, and had a cool OP weapon and skills. Even when the flavour of the month eye candy OC happens to be male, it doesn't magically make the situation better.

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As much as some people hate it, you have to accept that it's never going to go away. They're making profit thanks to this and I doubt they're gonna stop and lose money it'd be stupid to

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