Do you prefer Specialists or All-arounders in RPGs?

[Azz]

57 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What is your opinion about the case where a specialist winds up too specialized to the point that they wind up being pretty much useless, then? 

I mean it depends on context. If its the case of if a character does something well in a trade off for not be so good at smth else i.e. glass canons, I think that's fine. That's a niche a just a way to balance the character from not being op. If a character can only do one thing in one situation and that's it, well then in that case, obviously they are useless and aren't worth using.

Tbh, I personally haven't really come across too many characters that have been overly specialised to the point of being useless, except in like pokemon maybe? But even then I don't play competitive and pokemon is all about playing favourites (at least for me) so I don't really care if a 'mon I like is considered useless.

[ping]

Sometimes, niches are just really really good, too. For example, Jake and Beck in Shadow Dragon aren't exactly well-rounded characters, but "long-ranged attacks that aren't super low in supply" is extremely valuable. In Baldur's Gate, a character that can do nothing but cast Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting 20 times a day would still be great, because "huge party-friendly AoE damage" just isn't fair or balanced.

[Interdimensional Observer]

18 hours ago, Armchair General said:

But it would be nice to go beyond using a quartet, every now and then.

Etrian Odyssey opts for a quintet. Something along the lines of at least 2 dedicated attackers and anything else: more attacking, tanking, healing, buffing and or debuffing, ailment/bind infliction, can make for a good setup there, depends on team composition.

 

And since I love EO, I think I'd say I'm definitely much more a specialist person. As long as a glass cannon or glass medic isn't so glassy that they frequently get OHKO'ed, specialization is good.

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/10/2021 at 1:36 PM, Azz said:

I mean it depends on context. If its the case of if a character does something well in a trade off for not be so good at smth else i.e. glass canons, I think that's fine. That's a niche a just a way to balance the character from not being op. If a character can only do one thing in one situation and that's it, well then in that case, obviously they are useless and aren't worth using.

Tbh, I personally haven't really come across too many characters that have been overly specialised to the point of being useless, except in like pokemon maybe? But even then I don't play competitive and pokemon is all about playing favourites (at least for me) so I don't really care if a 'mon I like is considered useless.

Atlas in Shadows of Valentia comes to mind; he has great attack, but everything else isn't so great (to be fair, though, as this is SoV we're talking about, it is possible for him to overcome his statistical deficiencies due to the way promotion works, and second, aside from dungeons and the final battle, you can use everyone, so I might as well get some use out of him). A straighter example would be Subaki or Rinkah; the best I can get out of them is "earlygame tank" because their weird stats and growths make it unlikely for them to have any long-term potential (and even that is dubious, because I'd prefer my tank to actually be able to damage whatever they attack in return, which they aren't exactly good at). Same for Niles - he has great speed, but his poor attack power makes it such that I'd rather use Nina instead, because she can actually damage things that do not have wings or low defense. Or how about most fighters in the series - great strength and HP, mediocre to poor everything else (Raphael in 3H is similarly lopsided).

On 8/10/2021 at 4:21 PM, ping said:

Sometimes, niches are just really really good, too. For example, Jake and Beck in Shadow Dragon aren't exactly well-rounded characters, but "long-ranged attacks that aren't super low in supply" is extremely valuable. In Baldur's Gate, a character that can do nothing but cast Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting 20 times a day would still be great, because "huge party-friendly AoE damage" just isn't fair or balanced.

Fair point.

[FailWood]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Atlas in Shadows of Valentia comes to mind; he has great attack, but everything else isn't so great (to be fair, though, as this is SoV we're talking about, it is possible for him to overcome his statistical deficiencies due to the way promotion works, and second, aside from dungeons and the final battle, you can use everyone, so I might as well get some use out of him)

Forging also helps with statistical short comings in SoV.  Funny you mention Atlas, I made him into an Archer and forged a Killer Bow for him.  Since his Base Strength is so high, him getting a crit meant death for most enemies who isn't a Baron or one of those armored terrors.  Still has to mind his distance due to poor speed, and his accuracy could be better.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Niles - he has great speed, but his poor attack power makes it such that I'd rather use Nina instead, because she can actually damage things that do not have wings or low defense.

I've lost count of how many times you've bashed this poor guy.  Sure, he's not worth using in Revelation due to his horrible join time and how that route gives you all the royals, but in Conquest, he's handy for the entire first half of the route.  Has solid base Res, so despite having triangle disadvantage, he won't have much trouble against mages (he and Odin can handle all the mages in chapter 8 by themselves when working together).  Chapter 9, he can take on the archers around the boss when paired with Effie and adjacent to Elise (gets a heaping plus 7 defense and 3 Strength from those two).  In Chapter 10, the ballista on the right side has his name written all over it, and he and Odin can finish anyone he weakens with it.  He can also shoot down any pegs who try to take the objective.  Chapter 11, he can take on the ninja on the left side with either Beruka or Effie's help, or he can take on the mages with help from Odin, Nyx, or one the servants.  He's also still the only locktouch unit you'll reasonably have by this point.  ...I'd give more examples but this is kinda long already.  Last thing I'll say for now is that you'll learn to appreciate him once you play Conquest on Lunatic.

[Shadow Mir]

11 minutes ago, FailWood said:

Forging also helps with statistical short comings in SoV.  Funny you mention Atlas, I made him into an Archer and forged a Killer Bow for him.  Since his Base Strength is so high, him getting a crit meant death for most enemies who isn't a Baron or one of those armored terrors.  Still has to mind his distance due to poor speed, and his accuracy could be better.

At the same time, I think he has it better than some others, like the ones I mentioned later in that post.

12 minutes ago, FailWood said:

I've lost count of how many times you've bashed this poor guy.  Sure, he's not worth using in Revelation due to his horrible join time and how that route gives you all the royals, but in Conquest, he's handy for the entire first half of the route.  Has solid base Res, so despite having triangle disadvantage, he won't have much trouble against mages (he and Odin can handle all the mages in chapter 8 by themselves when working together).  Chapter 9, he can take on the archers around the boss when paired with Effie and adjacent to Elise (gets a heaping plus 7 defense and 3 Strength from those two).  In Chapter 10, the ballista on the right side has his name written all over it, and he and Odin can finish anyone he weakens with it.  He can also shoot down any pegs who try to take the objective.  Chapter 11, he can take on the ninja on the left side with either Beruka or Effie's help, or he can take on the mages with help from Odin, Nyx, or one the servants.  He's also still the only locktouch unit you'll reasonably have by this point.  ...I'd give more examples but this is kinda long already.  Last thing I'll say for now is that you'll learn to appreciate him once you play Conquest on Lunatic.

I don't know how lucky you have been with him, but pretty much every time I try to give him a chance, his performance is barely passable at best, and fucking atrocious at worst. Which is not something I'm willing to abide in a game as unforgiving as Conquest. Also, I must say, I don't know what possesses you to think I'll do a complete 180 and respect him when I play Conquest on Lunatic, but that sounds both overly optimistic and extremely naive.

[FailWood]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know how lucky you have been with him, but pretty much every time I try to give him a chance, his performance is barely passable at best, and fucking atrocious at worst. Which is not something I'm willing to abide in a game as unforgiving as Conquest. Also, I must say, I don't know what possesses you to think I'll do a complete 180 and respect him when I play Conquest on Lunatic, but that sounds both overly optimistic and extremely naive.

It's more knowing how to use him.  His levels (on average) have never been great for me either, and it's usually at Chapter 16 that I either drop him, or make him a more dedicated backpack unit, as he's one of few characters who gives a good chunk of speed to whoever he's backing.

I've beaten Conquest Lunatic before, and while he wasn't a permanent member of my team, he was definitely one of the more useful members early on.  The big thing about Conquest Lunatic is that it wants the player to utilize and pay attention to everything they have available to them, like each units stats, their personal skills, and so on.  Early on, he'll likely be the only unit on your team with good speed and res (unless you picked M!Corrin and Felicia got several res levels), and is part of what the game wants you the utilize.  It's where I got all those examples from that I posted before (though the Archer strat in Chapter 9 is less reliable because of how hard they hit compared to Normal and Hard).

Anyway, I'm neither telling you nor asking you to like him, but I do think you're selling him short.  He definitely has ways to contribute, even if he doesn't stay a part of your team.

...I also really dislike Nina as a character, due to her yaoi fetish (her unhealthy obsession with Male X Male relationships, just saying so no one tries to look that up).

Edited August 14, 2021 by FailWood

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, FailWood said:

It's more knowing how to use him.  His levels (on average) have never been great for me either, and it's usually at Chapter 16 that I either drop him, or make him a more dedicated backpack unit, as he's one of few characters who gives a good chunk of speed to whoever he's backing.

I've beaten Conquest Lunatic before, and while he wasn't a permanent member of my team, he was definitely one of the more useful members early on.  The big thing about Conquest Lunatic is that it wants the player to utilize and pay attention to everything they have available to them, like each units stats, their personal skills, and so on.  Early on, he'll likely be the only unit on your team with good speed and res (unless you picked M!Corrin and Felicia got several res levels), and is part of what the game wants you the utilize.  It's where I got all those examples from that I posted before (though the Archer strat in Chapter 9 is less reliable because of how hard they hit compared to Normal and Hard).

Anyway, I'm neither telling you nor asking you to like him, but I do think you're selling him short.  He definitely has ways to contribute, even if he doesn't stay a part of your team.

...I also really dislike Nina as a character, due to her yaoi fetish (her unhealthy obsession with Male X Male relationships, just saying so no one tries to look that up).

You'll have to excuse me if I find this explanation flimsy and unacceptable, which I do. One of your defenses for him in your last post is "he can take on mages with help from Odin/Nyx/a servant!" which is not impressive when two of those are lousy units themselves (Odin due to being a Master of None, and Nyx because she has terrible stats aside from magic and speed, which makes her pretty much useless), and the last can do mage-killing better than him due to not being disadvantaged against them as well as Tomebreaker. Hell, a recurring pattern among your defenses for him is either needing more bad units to be used, or needing to have him paired up with a superior unit. Neither of those are good things, last I checked.

I'm bothered by Nina's yaoi fetish myself, but the thought of losing my sanity over Niles not being able to pull his weight in battle bothers me ten billion percent more.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[FailWood]

50 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

One of your defenses for him in your last post is "he can take on mages with help from Odin/Nyx/a servant!" which is not impressive when two of those are lousy units themselves (Odin due to being a Master of None, and Nyx because she has terrible stats aside from magic and speed, which makes her pretty much useless), and the last can do mage-killing better than him due to not being disadvantaged against them as well as Tomebreaker. Hell, a recurring pattern among your defenses for him is either needing more bad units to be used, or needing to have him paired up with a superior unit. Neither of those are good things, last I checked.

In Lunatic, those pair up bonuses matter a lot, and you're not likely to have Tomebreaker on Felicia/Jakob until you're past Conquest's early game (Chapter 13 at the earliest realistically) unless you use DLC to grind.  Plus you're free to bring everyone until you beat Chapter 10 (unless you get Mozu, in which case you'll have to bench one unit), so you might as well make use of what you've got.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, FailWood said:

In Lunatic, those pair up bonuses matter a lot, and you're not likely to have Tomebreaker on Felicia/Jakob until you're past Conquest's early game (Chapter 13 at the earliest realistically) unless you use DLC to grind.  Plus you're free to bring everyone until you beat Chapter 10 (unless you get Mozu, in which case you'll have to bench one unit), so you might as well make use of what you've got.

The problem is, that doesn't fly when I start with some units that are so bad that it's better for my game and my sanity to drop them like a hot potato ASAP. And Conquest throws quite a few of those at me early on (Arthur, Nyx, Niles, Odin).

[FailWood]

43 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is, that doesn't fly when I start with some units that are so bad that it's better for my game and my sanity to drop them like a hot potato ASAP. And Conquest throws quite a few of those at me early on (Arthur, Nyx, Niles, Odin).

Then you'll never beat Lunatic.  The number of enemies and the damage they deal will be too much for your other units to handle if you try to low man it.  Effie and Corrin may be good, but not to the point they can handle all that by themselves.  On top of that, the Sky Knights in Chapter 10 prioritize the point you're defending rather then your units, and because of how many there are, Camilla can't get them all on her own.  Oh, and who's the other unit that can take them out easily?  Niles, who has both weapon triangle and effective damage against them.

[Shadow Mir]

13 minutes ago, FailWood said:

Then you'll never beat Lunatic.  The number of enemies and the damage they deal will be too much for your other units to handle if you try to low man it.  Effie and Corrin may be good, but not to the point they can handle all that by themselves.  On top of that, the Sky Knights in Chapter 10 prioritize the point you're defending rather then your units, and because of how many there are, Camilla can't get them all on her own.  Oh, and who's the other unit that can take them out easily?  Niles, who has both weapon triangle and effective damage against them.

When did I ever say anything about low-manning it? And it ain't like Niles is that indispensable... given the game has Anna and Nina as well, who's to say that I wouldn't have gotten one, or even both, of them before chapter 10???

[FailWood]

41 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

When did I ever say anything about low-manning it?

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

that doesn't fly when I start with some units that are so bad that it's better for my game and my sanity to drop them like a hot potato ASAP.

Did you already forget you said this?

41 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And it ain't like Niles is that indispensable... given the game has Anna and Nina as well, who's to say that I wouldn't have gotten one, or even both, of them before chapter 10???

I didn't bother getting Anna at any point during my Lunatic run, so I'm unsure how practical that is to try.  Even on lower difficulties, her map is pretty hard if you try to do it early in the game.  As for Nina, getting her in time for Chapter 10 is not possible unless you waste much of your life trying to have Niles support grind with a specific female via random events in My Castle, or use DLC (which all of those maps are harder in Lunatic).

Edited August 14, 2021 by FailWood

[Shadow Mir]

20 hours ago, FailWood said:

I didn't bother getting Anna at any point during my Lunatic run, so I'm unsure how practical that is to try.  Even on lower difficulties, her map is pretty hard if you try to do it early in the game.  As for Nina, getting her in time for Chapter 10 is not possible unless you waste much of your life trying to have Niles support grind with a specific female via random events in My Castle, or use DLC (which all of those maps are harder in Lunatic).

Personally, I'm usually able to get Anna before chapter 10. Also, I have no qualms about grinding with DLC if it means I can get someone who's actually useful out of it. 

[FailWood]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, I have no qualms about grinding with DLC if it means I can get someone who's actually useful out of it. 

If you can pull it off, then go ahead.  The Stoneborn in Lunatic have Certain Blow, Lunge, and their usual Freeze, while all of the green Faceless (besides the lowest level ones) have Seal Defense, and Heartseeker.  They all gradually get stronger every time you beat a new chapter.

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/15/2021 at 3:07 PM, FailWood said:

If you can pull it off, then go ahead.  The Stoneborn in Lunatic have Certain Blow, Lunge, and their usual Freeze, while all of the green Faceless (besides the lowest level ones) have Seal Defense, and Heartseeker.  They all gradually get stronger every time you beat a new chapter.

Heh. You say that, but it'd be easier than trying to make Niles not suck ass (and it'd also make Conquest itself easier).

Edited August 25, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[FailWood]

19 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Heh. You say that, but it'd be easier than trying to make Niles not suck ass (and it'd also make Conquest itself easier).

Effie, Silas, and a Defense Boon Corrin can get some EXP as long as you don't push too far forward (maybe not Silas if he gets Defense screwed), while Elise and Felicia/Jakob can spam healing magic with each other in the marshes.  Getting hit by even one Stoneborn is certain death because of the pummeling that comes after.

 

I still recommend using him until you're past chapter 11, your numbers until that point are too low to not use him.  ...Trying to use Mozu in Lunatic has been very unfulfilling.  Gets one shot in her own paralogue without a shit ton of support and using the forests.

[vanguard333]

I suppose it depends on the type of RPG. I generally prefer for them to have some amount of flexibility/versatility, but the amount varies depending on the type of RPG.

For something like Pokémon, I want each one to have its particular role in the team, but I also generally want them to at least be able to cover some of their own weaknesses. So I guess, on a macro level, I want each of them to specialize in a particular task, but on a micro level, I want them to be an all-rounder within that task. In short: specialist, yes; One-trick pony, no. Incidentally, for Monster Hunter Stories, the game rewards specialization even more than Pokémon does, so my Monsties usually end up very specialized.

For a more action-based RPG where I swap between characters on the fly but they're always in the fight, such as Ys or Xenoblade, I generally gravitate towards making the characters as well-rounded as possible. This is mainly because I tend not to trust even the best support-character AI in these kinds of games, so I tend to avoid relying on them and only swap characters when it would be best to do so.

For tactical RPGs like Fire Emblem... I guess I tend to gravitate towards a mix of all-rounders and specialists. I prefer having a team with a good mix of different units in general, so that applies with this as well. If I really had to prefer one over the other, I guess I prefer more well-rounded units, but if I find a specialist whose particular thing they specialize in would help my team a lot, then I am going to use them. It's the reason I always train Rolf in Path of Radiance: at the time you get him, he's level 1 and just an archer, but there's no other archer, and he proves particularly useful for situations such as the mission where your team's stuck on a ship and surrounded by raven laguz. He probably brings down more flying units in my Path of Radiance playthroughs than even other anti-fliers like Soren.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, FailWood said:

Effie, Silas, and a Defense Boon Corrin can get some EXP as long as you don't push too far forward (maybe not Silas if he gets Defense screwed), while Elise and Felicia/Jakob can spam healing magic with each other in the marshes.  Getting hit by even one Stoneborn is certain death because of the pummeling that comes after.

 

I still recommend using him until you're past chapter 11, your numbers until that point are too low to not use him.  ...Trying to use Mozu in Lunatic has been very unfulfilling.  Gets one shot in her own paralogue without a shit ton of support and using the forests.

Stoneborn getting Lunge changes nothing, because I already found it best to avoid them like the plague.

Ehh, probably not. Though I do agree with you on Mozu - she needs absurd favoritism to even be able to contribute.

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

It's the reason I always train Rolf in Path of Radiance: at the time you get him, he's level 1 and just an archer, but there's no other archer, and he proves particularly useful for situations such as the mission where your team's stuck on a ship and surrounded by raven laguz. He probably brings down more flying units in my Path of Radiance playthroughs than even other anti-fliers like Soren.

Personally, I find Rolf isn't that good at bringing down flying units, due to having the misfortune of being in a game where effective damage was nerfed to double might (and probably the worst game for a bow-locked unit period). As a result, for anything he might have been useful for, I'd have better options (in the case of the chapter in question, I'd find it better to have a sword user use the laguzslayer that was obtained from the prior chapter); a one-trick pony that is outclassed at twhat they're supposed to be good at is just bad. On top of that, his bad bases and jointime combine to screw him over (if I want to entertain the thought of using an archer with bad bases, I'd rather they come early when enemies are weak).

Edited August 27, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I find Rolf isn't that good at bringing down flying units, due to having the misfortune of being in a game where effective damage was nerfed to double might (and probably the worst game for a bow-locked unit period). As a result, for anything he might have been useful for, I'd have better options (in the case of the chapter in question, I'd find it better to have a sword user use the laguzslayer that was obtained from the prior chapter); a one-trick pony that is outclassed at what they're supposed to be good at is just bad. On top of that, his bad bases and jointime combine to screw him over (if I want to entertain the thought of using an archer with bad bases, I'd rather they come early when enemies are weak).

I never said Rolf was the only method I used for countering the ravens; I usually also give Ike the laguzslayer for that chapter (except in the rare case where Ike is already level 20, in which case I give the laguzslayer to Zihark if I'm using Zihark in that playthrough).

In any case, Rolf is necessary for recruiting Shinon, and I try to recruit everyone I can, so I may as well use Rolf.

Back to the original thing of specialists vs all-rounders, I agree that if an all-rounder can do something just as well as a specialist, one may as well use the all-rounder unless you're missing a slot and need a second unit that can do that task.

Perhaps for a better example of a specialist in the Tellius games, while Pellias joining late, underleveled, and on a second playthrough is a massive pain, there is an interesting niche that he fills thanks to his stats and dark magic if trained: he's magic artillery. If trained, he gains enough strength and speed to double-attack most late-game enemies even when using Fenrir (the long-range dark tome), and because dark magic has the highest weapon might among tomes, this means he can one-round KO most enemies using Fenrir. Being able to bring down enemies that have full health from up to 10 spaces away is extremely useful. 

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/26/2021 at 9:40 PM, vanguard333 said:

I never said Rolf was the only method I used for countering the ravens; I usually also give Ike the laguzslayer for that chapter (except in the rare case where Ike is already level 20, in which case I give the laguzslayer to Zihark if I'm using Zihark in that playthrough).

In any case, Rolf is necessary for recruiting Shinon, and I try to recruit everyone I can, so I may as well use Rolf.

Back to the original thing of specialists vs all-rounders, I agree that if an all-rounder can do something just as well as a specialist, one may as well use the all-rounder unless you're missing a slot and need a second unit that can do that task.

Perhaps for a better example of a specialist in the Tellius games, while Pellias joining late, underleveled, and on a second playthrough is a massive pain, there is an interesting niche that he fills thanks to his stats and dark magic if trained: he's magic artillery. If trained, he gains enough strength and speed to double-attack most late-game enemies even when using Fenrir (the long-range dark tome), and because dark magic has the highest weapon might among tomes, this means he can one-round KO most enemies using Fenrir. Being able to bring down enemies that have full health from up to 10 spaces away is extremely useful. 

Okay, but either way, training Rolf is a very hard sell when he comes in chapter 9 at level 1. Especially when not long after he joins, a bunch of great units start joining as well.

Rolf is needed to get Shinon back, but I don't need to train him for that.

That would be pretty hard for me to buy, because about the only stuff he can expect to double are red dragons, which any mage can hurt pretty bad (and you don't see very often), and tigers, which aren't exactly speedsters (they also only appear once at that point - in the chapter right before endgame). Probably mages, too, but they have high resistance anyway. Also, enemies in RD actually have resistance stats, meaning he probably wouldn't be ORKOing very much, if at all. I mean, I like mages, but Radiant Dawn is the game where they're at their worst. Also, Fenrir only has 5 uses, meaning he can only do this 4 times at most (factoring in the fact that you get a second Fenrir tome).

Edited September 2, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[vanguard333]

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay, but either way, training Rolf is a very hard sell when he comes in chapter 9 at level 1. Especially when not long after he joins, a bunch of great units start joining as well.

Rolf is needed to get Shinon back, but I don't need to train him for that.

That would be pretty hard for me to buy, because about the only stuff he can expect to double are red dragons, which any mage can hurt pretty bad (and you don't see very often), and tigers, which aren't exactly speedsters (they also only appear once at that point - in the chapter right before endgame). Probably mages, too, but they have high resistance anyway. Also, enemies in RD actually have resistance stats, meaning he probably wouldn't be ORKOing very much, if at all. I mean, I like mages, but Radiant Dawn is the game where they're at their worst. Also, Fenrir only has 5 uses, meaning he can only do this 4 times at most (factoring in the fact that you get a second Fenrir tome).

Fair points.

I'm just stating my experience when I used a fully-levelled Pelleas; he was able to double attack a lot of different units even when using the long-range dark tome; not just red dragons. You may not believe me, but it is true.

Edited September 2, 2021 by vanguard333

[null]

Especially if the party is changeable, I do prefer specialists, within reason, of course.

Having any one character be overspecialized or too evenly balanced isn't as effective, so characters that have their clearly defined role with room for flexibility in gameplay is ideal, if you ask me.

If it's an RPG where you're primarily playing as a single character, then I'd opt for something close to the all-rounder, but with a bit more strength in physical offense than other stats/skills, if possible. I'm not usually one to play as magic-based characters if I can help it, so optimizing the lead/MC towards physical strengths is what I'd opt for.