Best character for each class - no, not the other way around

[LoneRecon400]

Cyril can actually have 11 Strength at base since he can certify into Fighter for  +1 Strength. So he wouldn’t even need a Star booster or Advocate to one round the majority of enemies in Chapter 5. 

[Anathaco]

10 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Cyril can actually have 11 Strength at base since he can certify into Fighter for  +1 Strength. So he wouldn’t even need a Star booster or Advocate to one round the majority of enemies in Chapter 5. 

Oh yeah I forgot he started as a commoner. So yeah, even better then.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

There are a few armoured enemies on the map that he can’t one round (including the boss himself) but short of a recruited Catherine, maybe a particularly strong gauntlet user (like Felix if his crest activates enough), or NG+ shenanigans, nobody else can either, and being able to one round at all this early is good in and of itself.

To be fair most magical units can one-round those armours if using a D-rank battalion. It's also pretty reasonable for the really high-str characters (like Byleth or Dimitri) to get them with a Mace on paper, although I never actually do this. But that doesn't take away from your point. If anything, the fact that the armours are the most easily one-rounded enemies by the rest of the team is a good thing for Cyril: he one-rounds most of what they don't, so there's nice synergy there.

Though in Mir's slight defence, though I disagree with him about most of what he's said, his complaint was that Cyril and Ignatz were noted "very strong" and I would agree that label is probably pushing it. Pretty sure both got fairly average scores when the community rated the units a few months ago, which I think is fair. Both have their downsides as units - Ignatz's are obvious, and even this early Cyril needs support to not just explode as his durability (especially with a Brawler battalion) and AS are both terrible - if you don't trade out his steel bow on enemy phase he'll be one-rounded by every physical enemy except the armour knights (and the mages come disturbingly close given their bad atk). For this reason I certainly wouldn't put him on the level of Byleth/Dimitri/Claude/Physic-user even if he one-rounds more stuff, and obviously Catherine is just better. But certainly both units are much better than he's giving them credit for - very few units in 3H are truly bad, and those two certainly aren't among them. And to circle back to the point that matters, yes Hilda throwing out Bolting support for the majority of a typical Deer team (really, Shamir is the only commonly-used unit on Deer runs she doesn't support?) is very helpful and I'm not sure why Mir is contesting that.

[Anathaco]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair most magical units can one-round those armours if using a D-rank battalion. It's also pretty reasonable for the really high-str characters (like Byleth or Dimitri) to get them with a Mace on paper, although I never actually do this. But that doesn't take away from your point. If anything, the fact that the armours are the most easily one-rounded enemies by the rest of the team is a good thing for Cyril: he one-rounds most of what they don't, so there's nice synergy there.

Though in Mir's slight defence, though I disagree with him about most of what he's said, his complaint was that Cyril and Ignatz were noted "very strong" and I would agree that label is probably pushing it. Pretty sure both got fairly average scores when the community rated the units a few months ago, which I think is fair. Both have their downsides as units - Ignatz's are obvious, and even this early Cyril needs support to not just explode as his durability (especially with a Brawler battalion) and AS are both terrible - if you don't trade out his steel bow on enemy phase he'll be one-rounded by every physical enemy except the armour knights (and the mages come disturbingly close given their bad atk). For this reason I certainly wouldn't put him on the level of Byleth/Dimitri/Claude/Physic-user even if he one-rounds more stuff, and obviously Catherine is just better. But certainly both units are much better than he's giving them credit for - very few units in 3H are truly bad, and those two certainly aren't among them. And to circle back to the point that matters, yes Hilda throwing out Bolting support for the majority of a typical Deer team (really, Shamir is the only commonly-used unit on Deer runs she doesn't support?) is very helpful and I'm not sure why Mir is contesting that.

True on the armoured point- I don't think I've ever actively trained authority on a mage that early lol (or if I have its been on a run where I recruited Catherine or had a similarly strong unit through NG+).

For me at least what triggered the response of "wait a minute" to the Cyril and Ignatz points was the comparison to Lorenz and Raphael (who even then still aren't truly bad but definitely have less going for them than either Cyril or Ignatz). But overall, yeah I'd put them both at like high B/ low A tier.

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:52 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anyway, are you referring to infantry Flayn? Because having Rescue on a mounted unit is a different beast entirely.

Yes. As to your second statement, that'll be something I have to reserve for checking out on another run, due to circumstances (I have the DLC, but because my current run was in part 2 prior to getting the DLC, I can't do anything with regards to Constance and friends). This being said, though, I just can't get excited over Holy Knight Bernie - 15 magic is something I can only call disappointing when it comes with needing to be level 30 and heavy investment in Riding and Faith (like I stated in another thread, I find 15/17 magic underwhelming when it comes at level 20 and requires a lot of investment in Reason or Faith; of course I'm not gonna settle for 15 magic when it comes 10 levels later and needs even more investment). And with Rescue's range being Mag/4, I'd pretty much need to forcefeed her every magic booster I can get my hands on to salvage that.

[Objeckts]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yes. As to your second statement, that'll be something I have to reserve for checking out on another run, due to circumstances (I have the DLC, but because my current run was in part 2 prior to getting the DLC, I can't do anything with regards to Constance and friends). This being said, though, I just can't get excited over Holy Knight Bernie - 15 magic is something I can only call disappointing when it comes with needing to be level 30 and heavy investment in Riding and Faith (like I stated in another thread, I find 15/17 magic underwhelming when it comes at level 20 and requires a lot of investment in Reason or Faith; of course I'm not gonna settle for 15 magic when it comes 10 levels later and needs even more investment). And with Rescue's range being Mag/4, I'd pretty much need to forcefeed her every magic booster I can get my hands on to salvage that.

It's not worth stat boosters. She starts at 16 Magic, which is a breakpoint for Rescue range. Beyond that every 4 magic stat boosters give her 1 Rescue range. +Mag gets way more mileage on other units. Magic means different things to different units. I can see Warlock Lorenz with 17 magic who needs it for offense being bad. But to HK Bernie 15 magic means 4 Rescue range and 8 Physic range, which is enough.

The main action Holy Knight Bernie should be doing is Vengeance, not Rescue or Physic. From level 20-30 she is the same as a Bow Knight Bernie. At level 30+ she trades 1 move and Encloser for Rescue/Physic.

Once again I am not implying that Holy Knight Bernie is better than Bow Knight Bernie. But there are a good amount of situations where Rescue & Physic are better than Encloser and 1 move. HK Bernie is a fun build that makes use of a terrible class while still being one of the best units on your team.

[Objeckts]

15 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Though in Mir's slight defence, though I disagree with him about most of what he's said, his complaint was that Cyril and Ignatz were noted "very strong" and I would agree that label is probably pushing it. 

Personally I would put Cyril ~A Tier. Definitely not as strong as the lords. Probably not as good as Shamir/Lys/Leonie. But he is still one of the better units in the game.

Ignatz is not as strong as Cyril. But not bad unit by any definition. 

[Barren]

2 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Personally I would put Cyril ~A Tier. Definitely not as strong as the lords. Probably not as good as Shamir/Lys/Leonie. But he is still one of the better units in the game.

Ignatz is not as strong as Cyril. But not bad unit by any definition. 

I’ve used Ignatz on my Golden Deer maddening run and he turned out well as my main Sniper thanks to his PA. To be fair, anyone can make a good sniper more or less. 
 

Cyril makes a good backup unit incase you like having PBV with you. The fact he can get it so early gives him an edge over the other archer candidates. Of course whether or not you want to put in the effort especially in silver snow is up to the player. I’d say he’s honestly high B tier but certainly usable especially if he has Hilda next to him using Advocate.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

20 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Though in Mir's slight defence, though I disagree with him about most of what he's said, his complaint was that Cyril and Ignatz were noted "very strong" and I would agree that label is probably pushing it. Pretty sure both got fairly average scores when the community rated the units a few months ago, which I think is fair.

I reviewed the tierlist the other day. Pretty sure Cyril was between 6.0 and 6.5, while Ignatz was between 4.5 and 5.0. Interestingly, I gave Cyril a 5 and Ignatz a 6, since I constantly overrate Rallies. It's worth keeping in mind that units were rated on their best route, and availability was considered, so Cyril took a hit (relative to the "24 students") for not being usable in any of the very hard earlygames.

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yes. As to your second statement, that'll be something I have to reserve for checking out on another run, due to circumstances (I have the DLC, but because my current run was in part 2 prior to getting the DLC, I can't do anything with regards to Constance and friends). This being said, though, I just can't get excited over Holy Knight Bernie - 15 magic is something I can only call disappointing when it comes with needing to be level 30 and heavy investment in Riding and Faith (like I stated in another thread, I find 15/17 magic underwhelming when it comes at level 20 and requires a lot of investment in Reason or Faith; of course I'm not gonna settle for 15 magic when it comes 10 levels later and needs even more investment). And with Rescue's range being Mag/4, I'd pretty much need to forcefeed her every magic booster I can get my hands on to salvage that.

Not gonna contest that Bernie will have a bad magic stat. That said, I don't think getting her to 20 Magic (i.e. 5-range Rescue) will be too much of a stretch. Dark Knight or Warlock certification bumps her up to 17 Magic, and Magic +2 from Monk mastery puts her at 19. So she'll only need 1 more point, whether from natural level-up or booster, to hit 20.

...That said, while getting her Rescue requires Faith investment, getting her a better magic stat demands Reason investment. So, splitting her attention this way may present a struggle.

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/22/2021 at 4:09 PM, Objeckts said:

Personally I would put Cyril ~A Tier. Definitely not as strong as the lords. Probably not as good as Shamir/Lys/Leonie. But he is still one of the better units in the game.

Ignatz is not as strong as Cyril. But not bad unit by any definition. 

I'd say that's pushing it, especially when his best tool is also a very high-risk one (better pray he doesn't whiff with Point-Blank Volley, or else he is fucked seven ways to Sunday). I'm not so eager to resort to Death-or-Glory Attacks, which is what Point-Blank Volley is at this point.

On 8/22/2021 at 9:15 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Not gonna contest that Bernie will have a bad magic stat. That said, I don't think getting her to 20 Magic (i.e. 5-range Rescue) will be too much of a stretch. Dark Knight or Warlock certification bumps her up to 17 Magic, and Magic +2 from Monk mastery puts her at 19. So she'll only need 1 more point, whether from natural level-up or booster, to hit 20.

...That said, while getting her Rescue requires Faith investment, getting her a better magic stat demands Reason investment. So, splitting her attention this way may present a struggle.

I'd consider opportunity cost here - and frankly, this would pretty much assuredly come at the cost of Encloser, which is a MASSIVE opportunity cost to incur, especially on non-Golden Deer runs. And for what? Because I don't think this would come close to making up for forgoing one of the biggest assets Bernie has.

On 8/22/2021 at 4:06 PM, Objeckts said:

It's not worth stat boosters. She starts at 16 Magic, which is a breakpoint for Rescue range. Beyond that every 4 magic stat boosters give her 1 Rescue range. +Mag gets way more mileage on other units. Magic means different things to different units. I can see Warlock Lorenz with 17 magic who needs it for offense being bad. But to HK Bernie 15 magic means 4 Rescue range and 8 Physic range, which is enough.

The main action Holy Knight Bernie should be doing is Vengeance, not Rescue or Physic. From level 20-30 she is the same as a Bow Knight Bernie. At level 30+ she trades 1 move and Encloser for Rescue/Physic.

Once again I am not implying that Holy Knight Bernie is better than Bow Knight Bernie. But there are a good amount of situations where Rescue & Physic are better than Encloser and 1 move. HK Bernie is a fun build that makes use of a terrible class while still being one of the best units on your team.

Considering how much investment this needs, I'd consider 16 magic nothing short of disappointing. To be honest, if I want to optimize my characters' performance on the battlefield, they need to specialize, which this doesn't do; making Bernie a red mage-esque character doesn't help me in any fashion. This reeks of being a rip-off and a losing trade; I don't want a character that struggles to be useful without satisfying certain conditions first, which this reeks of, what with Vengeance needing low HP to be effective (I know it can be powerful, but still, I'd rather do something else than have to devote myself to building around this; I would also emphasize that you're giving up 2 extra range on bows, in addition to Encloser and 1 move, which makes this an even harder sell than it already is).

On 8/22/2021 at 12:09 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair most magical units can one-round those armours if using a D-rank battalion. It's also pretty reasonable for the really high-str characters (like Byleth or Dimitri) to get them with a Mace on paper, although I never actually do this. But that doesn't take away from your point. If anything, the fact that the armours are the most easily one-rounded enemies by the rest of the team is a good thing for Cyril: he one-rounds most of what they don't, so there's nice synergy there.

Though in Mir's slight defence, though I disagree with him about most of what he's said, his complaint was that Cyril and Ignatz were noted "very strong" and I would agree that label is probably pushing it. Pretty sure both got fairly average scores when the community rated the units a few months ago, which I think is fair. Both have their downsides as units - Ignatz's are obvious, and even this early Cyril needs support to not just explode as his durability (especially with a Brawler battalion) and AS are both terrible - if you don't trade out his steel bow on enemy phase he'll be one-rounded by every physical enemy except the armour knights (and the mages come disturbingly close given their bad atk). For this reason I certainly wouldn't put him on the level of Byleth/Dimitri/Claude/Physic-user even if he one-rounds more stuff, and obviously Catherine is just better. But certainly both units are much better than he's giving them credit for - very few units in 3H are truly bad, and those two certainly aren't among them. And to circle back to the point that matters, yes Hilda throwing out Bolting support for the majority of a typical Deer team (really, Shamir is the only commonly-used unit on Deer runs she doesn't support?) is very helpful and I'm not sure why Mir is contesting that.

I don't know about you, but I have a disdain for high investment builds, especially when the payoff isn't worth it. I also dislike builds that don't excel in anything (is it any surprise that I think Lorenz sucks when that describes him to a T? Hell no it ain't), or those that are too specialized. And in this case, Bolting is more of the Fire Emblem equivalent of a consolation prize than anything else, especially as far as the War Cleric build is concerned, because she can't even use it (lol 1 use). In contrast, if I was using Coco as a Warlock or Gremory, I could actually use Bolting to wreck enemies' shit (granted, this discussion is not about her, but still). In comparison, the War Cleric build makes it look more like fool's gold. Anyway, to make a long story short, I'd rather put Hilda in a class that optimizes her for combat and leave support aspects to others than put her in War Cleric and have her fill multiple roles poorly. Besides, on a Golden Deer run, where this is theoretically supposed to be at its best, I'd be more inclined to bolster my ranks with recruits from outside because the Deer boys not named Claude suck, so this can't even claim to be that good in actual practice. Long story short, I've been against this build because it is a lot more trouble than it's worth.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Anathaco]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd say that's pushing it, especially when his best tool is also a very high-risk one (better pray he doesn't whiff with Point-Blank Volley, or else he is fucked seven ways to Sunday). I'm not so eager to resort to Death-or-Glory Attacks, which is what Point-Blank Volley is at this point.

If we’re still talking about chapter 5, Cyril has 11 base dex, 80 hit from the steel bow + and 10 from bow prowess level 3. That adds up to 101 hit. The highest avoid stat on the map is 28, so Cyril at worst has 73 hit. I’ll concede that that’s not the greatest, but it’s still pretty good for a worst case scenario. Missing is a possibility, but I’d hardly call it “high-risk”. Besides, if you have dlc you can grab an accuracy ring from the pagan altar (you can, right, I’ve honestly never used it) to bump it up to 83, which is a lot better.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd consider opportunity cost here - and frankly, this would pretty much assuredly come at the cost of Encloser, which is a MASSIVE opportunity cost to incur, especially on non-Golden Deer runs. And for what? Because I don't think this would come close to making up for forgoing one of the biggest assets Bernie has.

At the risk of going a bit too off topic here… is Encloser actually worth it? Like I wouldn’t doubt it, but it’s just that I’ve never been in a situation where it would actually be useful. It’s good to stop enemies that you can’t kill for whatever reason, but whenever I think about using it another solution always presents itself, like gambits, rescue, etc.

Basically, someone sell me on Encloser, because I know it’s good but I’ve still never found it useful.

As for the actual topic of holy knight Bernie im deliberately not commenting because I’d honestly just greenhouse abuse to get her magic up lol. In theory though I definitely like the idea of it, and I’d argue that while the opportunity cost is great, the opportunity cost for holy knights in general is pretty high too, so may as well go for one that could actually be useful.

[LoneRecon400]

Point Blank Volley adds +10 Hit, so Cyril would be looking at 83 Hit at worst again the enemy thieves. If you manage to get him to level 10 (Easy to do with the two quest battles in that month) and have certify for Brigand for a +2 Strength class mod, he can afford to drop Alliance Brawlers for Seiros Mercs. That will raise his Hit by another 10, giving him 93 Hit on the thieves.

Edited August 29, 2021 by LoneRecon400

[Anathaco]

23 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Point Blank Volley adds +10 Hit, so Cyril would be looking at 83 Hit at worst again the enemy thieves. If you manage to get him to level 10 (Easy to do with the two quest battles in that month) and have certify for Brigand for a +2 Strength class mod, he can afford to drop Alliance Brawlers for Seiros Mercs. That will raise his Hit by another 10, giving him 93 Hit on the thieves.

I stand corrected this is way better than I thought lol.

can’t believe I forgot PBV adds 10 hit

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And in this case, Bolting is more of the Fire Emblem equivalent of a consolation prize than anything else, especially as far as the War Cleric build is concerned, because she can't even use it (lol 1 use)

She can use it near the end of the fight if you feel it's worth it and it outweighs the option of boosted accuracy. Regardless, the accuracy boost is the point. It's significant, and given how you've expressed concern for low hit in the past I would think you would agree. You already mentioned, for instance, that it's very bad if Cyril misses (and I agree), this reduces the odds of that.

EDIT: Bringing up Constance also misses the point. Obviously Constance is a better wielder of offensive Bolting, but her support list is puny, especially on non-CF routes (and even on CF, her support list is dwarfed by Dorothea's). Hilda supports a huge number of units on a typical GD team.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, to make a long story short, I'd rather put Hilda in a class that optimizes her for combat and leave support aspects to others than put her in War Cleric and have her fill multiple roles poorly.

That's fair, but not what we're talking about. Remember the point of this thread: the question is not "what class is best for Hilda" but rather "who makes best use of War Cleric"?

And for what it's worth, War Cleric has excellent combat (Fistfaire and a good str mod give loads of damage, and Brawl Avo +20 adds significant durability), just inferior mobility/range to some other physical options.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Dark Holy Elf

[Objeckts]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:49 PM, Anathaco said:

Basically, someone sell me on Encloser, because I know it’s good but I’ve still never found it useful.

Specifically on Bernie, it is something to do when she cannot safely use Vengeance. Normally Vengeance deals with one enemy per turn, but some turns it's just not possible to get use out of it because of how much of a glass cannon Bernie is. Encloser, particularly at 4 range, allows Bernie to still deal with a whole enemy. 

It's not as strong as Vengeance because someone still needs to finish of the enemy next turn, but it can be useful situationally.

On 8/28/2021 at 9:49 PM, Anathaco said:

As for the actual topic of holy knight Bernie im deliberately not commenting because I’d honestly just greenhouse abuse to get her magic up lol. In theory though I definitely like the idea of it, and I’d argue that while the opportunity cost is great, the opportunity cost for holy knights in general is pretty high too, so may as well go for one that could actually be useful.

If you do try HK Bernie, don't bother with stat boosters. Spending 4 magic boosters to increase the range of Rescue is not worth it. She is only going to be using Rescue once every ~5 turns. Other units make much better uses of +Mag.

On 8/28/2021 at 5:51 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I'd consider opportunity cost here - and frankly, this would pretty much assuredly come at the cost of Encloser, which is a MASSIVE opportunity cost to incur, especially on non-Golden Deer runs. And for what? Because I don't think this would come close to making up for forgoing one of the biggest assets Bernie has.

It seems like you are overvaluing Encloser. Encloser is strong on Bernie, but I hardly ever use it compared to Vengeance. It's really just for odd situations where Vengeance isn't safe.

On 8/28/2021 at 5:51 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Considering how much investment this needs, I'd consider 16 magic nothing short of disappointing. To be honest, if I want to optimize my characters' performance on the battlefield, they need to specialize, which this doesn't do; making Bernie a red mage-esque character doesn't help me in any fashion. This reeks of being a rip-off and a losing trade; I don't want a character that struggles to be useful without satisfying certain conditions first, which this reeks of, what with Vengeance needing low HP to be effective (I know it can be powerful, but still, I'd rather do something else than have to devote myself to building around this; I would also emphasize that you're giving up 2 extra range on bows, in addition to Encloser and 1 move, which makes this an even harder sell than it already is).

Encloser is a situational utility skill for Bow Knight Bernie. Physic/Rescue are situational utility spells for Holy Knight Bernie. But both builds are just using Vengeance 80% of the time. If they are not using Vengeance then they are really just mediocre builds.

The biggest reason Bow Knight is the better build is because of the +1 movement. 4 Range Encloser vs Rescue/Physic is a wash.

But once again, this thread is about who is the best Holy Knight, not which class is Bernie best as.

On 8/28/2021 at 5:51 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but I have a disdain for high investment builds, especially when the payoff isn't worth it. I also dislike builds that don't excel in anything (is it any surprise that I think Lorenz sucks when that describes him to a T? Hell no it ain't), or those that are too specialized.

War Cleric Hilda is the best AoE Hit/Mt buff on GD. The seems to be the definition of "excel". It's also not too specialized because it:

1. Has a lot of killing power with Darting Blow + Fistfaire
2. Is reasonably bulky with Hilda's speed and +20 Brawl Avoid

By your own definition you should like this build. It has a similar investment to get most units into WL.

On 8/28/2021 at 5:51 PM, Shadow Mir said:

And in this case, Bolting is more of the Fire Emblem equivalent of a consolation prize than anything else, especially as far as the War Cleric build is concerned, because she can't even use it (lol 1 use).

It's not meant to be used. It's just meant to be equipped for the team buff.

On 8/28/2021 at 5:51 PM, Shadow Mir said:

In contrast, if I was using Coco as a Warlock or Gremory, I could actually use Bolting to wreck enemies' shit (granted, this discussion is not about her, but still). In comparison, the War Cleric build makes it look more like fool's gold.

You are comparing two builds that do two completely different things. Constance is a siege mage and a magic booster sink. Hilda is infantry and AoE support. They both have strengths and weaknesses. But Constance having Bolting in no way makes Hilda any worse.

On 8/28/2021 at 5:51 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, to make a long story short, I'd rather put Hilda in a class that optimizes her for combat and leave support aspects to others than put her in War Cleric and have her fill multiple roles poorly.

She is the best in class AoE buff for GD. She gives +Mt to both Claude and Balthus. On top of being a bulky infantry.

On 8/28/2021 at 5:51 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Besides, on a Golden Deer run, where this is theoretically supposed to be at its best, I'd be more inclined to bolster my ranks with recruits from outside because the Deer boys not named Claude suck, so this can't even claim to be that good in actual practice. Long story short, I've been against this build because it is a lot more trouble than it's worth.

Leonie? Lys? Even Ignatz is above average. Then there are very strong free recruits like Balthus, Seteth, and Cyril who all love to have a global 10% Hit buff. I really can't imagine many recruits would do better than those three on GD.

[Anathaco]

15 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Specifically on Bernie, it is something to do when she cannot safely use Vengeance. Normally Vengeance deals with one enemy per turn, but some turns it's just not possible to get use out of it because of how much of a glass cannon Bernie is. Encloser, particularly at 4 range, allows Bernie to still deal with a whole enemy. 

It's not as strong as Vengeance because someone still needs to finish of the enemy next turn, but it can be useful situationally.

I see. I think my problem with it is that I’ve never used Bernie as anything other than dedicated vengeance (so only focusing on lances without ever training bows) so my only user of it has been Claude, and he traditionally kills pretty easily.

15 hours ago, Objeckts said:

If you do try HK Bernie, don't bother with stat boosters. Spending 4 magic boosters to increase the range of Rescue is not worth it. She is only going to be using Rescue once every ~5 turns. Other units make much better uses of +Mag.

Who says I’d only spend 4 magic boosters?

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:01 AM, Objeckts said:

Leonie? Lys? Even Ignatz is above average. Then there are very strong free recruits like Balthus, Seteth, and Cyril who all love to have a global 10% Hit buff. I really can't imagine many recruits would do better than those three on GD.

>Ignatz
>Above average
Is that your idea of a joke? Because if so, I am NOT laughing. From where I'm standing, Ignatz can be summed up as "good if and only if used as a Hunter's Volley Sniper, but terrible otherwise", which is very, VERY far from being worth calling "above average", especially when getting him there may as well be getting blood from a stone.

On 8/28/2021 at 8:49 PM, Anathaco said:

At the risk of going a bit too off topic here… is Encloser actually worth it? Like I wouldn’t doubt it, but it’s just that I’ve never been in a situation where it would actually be useful. It’s good to stop enemies that you can’t kill for whatever reason, but whenever I think about using it another solution always presents itself, like gambits, rescue, etc.

Basically, someone sell me on Encloser, because I know it’s good but I’ve still never found it useful.

As for the actual topic of holy knight Bernie im deliberately not commenting because I’d honestly just greenhouse abuse to get her magic up lol. In theory though I definitely like the idea of it, and I’d argue that while the opportunity cost is great, the opportunity cost for holy knights in general is pretty high too, so may as well go for one that could actually be useful.

Encloser locks an enemy down for a turn - even monsters. Offensive gambits - the only other method of stopping enemy units - only have one or two uses, and not everyone has the charm to hit with those regularly (Byleth and the lords have the charm to reliably hit with gambits, but I cannot say the same for certain other characters).

On 8/28/2021 at 11:42 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

She can use it near the end of the fight if you feel it's worth it and it outweighs the option of boosted accuracy. Regardless, the accuracy boost is the point. It's significant, and given how you've expressed concern for low hit in the past I would think you would agree. You already mentioned, for instance, that it's very bad if Cyril misses (and I agree), this reduces the odds of that.

EDIT: Bringing up Constance also misses the point. Obviously Constance is a better wielder of offensive Bolting, but her support list is puny, especially on non-CF routes (and even on CF, her support list is dwarfed by Dorothea's). Hilda supports a huge number of units on a typical GD team.

Her damage with it probably wouldn't be enough to make it worth it. Also, this feels like too much input for not enough output, AND it pretty much demands my team be mostly Golden Deer for this to be at its best (last I checked, if I'm forced into a specific team comp for it to be effective, that is NOT a good thing)... see the problem here? Because I certainly do. As a result, I see it as nothing but a waste of time. Also, honestly, I'm better off finding another way than putting myself in a position where, in this case, Cyril either hits twice and kills whatever he attacks, or Cyril whiffs and is the one to get one-rounded in retaliation.

On 8/28/2021 at 11:42 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

That's fair, but not what we're talking about. Remember the point of this thread: the question is not "what class is best for Hilda" but rather "who makes best use of War Cleric"?

Okay. For that I'd answer Byleth, and ditto for War Monk, largely because finding anyone else who makes good use of them is a tough sell, especially so for War Cleric (that said, War Monk has more options that make it feel not entirely like a gimmick)

On 8/30/2021 at 10:01 AM, Objeckts said:

It seems like you are overvaluing Encloser. Encloser is strong on Bernie, but I hardly ever use it compared to Vengeance. It's really just for odd situations where Vengeance isn't safe.

Likewise, I'd say you're overvaluing Vengeance. While it can be effective, it pretty much forces me to play a very specific way to get much out of it.

On 8/30/2021 at 10:01 AM, Objeckts said:

Encloser is a situational utility skill for Bow Knight Bernie. Physic/Rescue are situational utility spells for Holy Knight Bernie. But both builds are just using Vengeance 80% of the time. If they are not using Vengeance then they are really just mediocre builds.

The biggest reason Bow Knight is the better build is because of the +1 movement. 4 Range Encloser vs Rescue/Physic is a wash.

But once again, this thread is about who is the best Holy Knight, not which class is Bernie best as.

And I disagree with that, largely because I find Holy Knight a viciously bad class that is hard to justify putting anybody in, especially considering the opportunity cost is rather high. 

On 8/30/2021 at 10:01 AM, Objeckts said:

War Cleric Hilda is the best AoE Hit/Mt buff on GD. The seems to be the definition of "excel". It's also not too specialized because it:

1. Has a lot of killing power with Darting Blow + Fistfaire
2. Is reasonably bulky with Hilda's speed and +20 Brawl Avoid

By your own definition you should like this build. It has a similar investment to get most units into WL.

Key words there: "on GD". AKA, only useful on one route, and even there, it's a very hard sell because it requires too much investment for too little benefit (you're asking me to invest in lances (C), flying (D), brawling (B+), faith (C), reason (A), and axes (C). This reeks of investing in too many areas, and thus spreading myself thin). And this is ignoring authority, which I would want to invest in no matter what, because most of the paralogue battalions are great, AND that almost half the initial Deer roster is pretty lackluster, and thus I'd want to replace them ASAP, which means this is not nearly as useful in actual practice as it'd be in theory. The result? There's no way I can see this as even remotely worth it. Also, Brawl Avoid +20 is not that great, to be honest; if I was using a dodgetanking build, which it seems to lend itself to, I'd prefer to use a weapon type which doesn't have its strongest weapons have less might than an iron sword (or barely more, in the case of Vajra-Mushti). Gauntlets are better for a dodgetanking build than white magic... but that's saying very little.

On 8/30/2021 at 10:01 AM, Objeckts said:

She is the best in class AoE buff for GD. She gives +Mt to both Claude and Balthus. On top of being a bulky infantry.

See above on investment. Long story short, this takes too long to go online to the point it's nothing but a massive waste of time unless you're in NG+.

On 8/30/2021 at 10:01 AM, Objeckts said:

You are comparing two builds that do two completely different things. Constance is a siege mage and a magic booster sink. Hilda is infantry and AoE support. They both have strengths and weaknesses. But Constance having Bolting in no way makes Hilda any worse.

Okay then. Doesn't make War Cleric Hilda any less unappealing, though.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Anathaco]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Encloser locks an enemy down for a turn - even monsters. Offensive gambits - the only other method of stopping enemy units - only have one or two uses, and not everyone has the charm to hit with those regularly (Byleth and the lords have the charm to reliably hit with gambits, but I cannot say the same for certain other characters).

Actually I think I’ve realised my issue with Encloser- gambits have always been enough for me because I actually use tea parties- ergo I have a few extra units with good accuracy on gambits.

Not that my personal experience diminishes the value of the art itself of course, but at least it’s an explanation.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

>Ignatz
>Above average
Is that your idea of a joke? Because if so, I am NOT laughing. From where I'm standing, Ignatz can be summed up as "good if and only if used as a Hunter's Volley Sniper, but terrible otherwise", which is very, VERY far from being worth calling "above average", especially when getting him there may as well be getting blood from a stone.

War Master Ignatz would like a word.

But I think most people agree that Ignatz’ strength is present way before Hunter’s Volley ever becomes relevant- good accuracy makes him nice and reliable for chip damage, Rally speed is great for both survivability and offence (for the rest of the team), and he’s pretty good for using offensive gambits early on when everyone’s charm is pretty bad. His damage is low, but workable, and on GD can be boosted by Advocate to decent levels. And the fact that he has basically nothing else to strive for except Hunter’s Volley and authority for rallies means that building him is a walk in the park- other than a quick detour in axes for death blow, he’s basically set on bows and authority the whole game.

He has weaknesses, yeah, but he’s unironically one of the better early game units for GD, and at the very least can do that while still training for Sniper to make up for when his stats no longer cut it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

While it's probably best not to get too into the reeds about the value of Ignatz (again, I'll point to the poll we did on this site earlier, which does indeed point to Ignatz being below average if anything, if still respectable), I'll point out that even at Level 1, his gambit accuracy is equal to Dorothea's and behind Ingrid's and Ferdinand's (if the latter is at full HP) as far as "high for non-lords" go (and as after a few levels he falls behind).

In the context of "which units do people drop" (the relevant one for a discussion of Hilda's support list), I would think that Ignatz is probably second or third on most people's lists for GD. Hilda can't be dropped for this conversation, Claude almost can't be, and Leonie/Lysithea/Marianne are all clearly more useful IMO.

But also I don't think it matters much because Hilda's value only declines if we drop a lot of Deer for a lot of characters Hilda doesn't support, which again doesn't seem too likely to me.

[Cysx]

Anybody bring up Dancer Bernie? Y'know, because of Pass?

Edited September 23, 2021 by Cysx

[Dark Holy Elf]

Never really considered that, but still don't think I'd find it that useful? Three Houses maps just rarely feel designed for Pass to be that great for me, which is even more true for a Dancer who tends to take their move after some enemies have already been cleared out. The sword bane also sucks given how effective a dancer dodgetank can be. For the obvious comparison, Ferdinand (same house) will have some ~20 more avoid which seems likely to be useful much more often than Pass, at least to me.

Although Bernie does have Thoron (for linked attacks) and Rescue (the type of move which can actually rarely be more important than Dance) and a Riding pseudo-boon, so I can see some value in her as the pick. And from a personal note, it does neatly sidestep my eternal struggle with what the heck to do with her during Advanced tier. You do have to be a terrible person to choose her for the dance competition, though.

[Cysx]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Never really considered that, but still don't think I'd find it that useful? Three Houses maps just rarely feel designed for Pass to be that great for me, which is even more true for a Dancer who tends to take their move after some enemies have already been cleared out. The sword bane also sucks given how effective a dancer dodgetank can be. For the obvious comparison, Ferdinand (same house) will have some ~20 more avoid which seems likely to be useful much more often than Pass, at least to me.

Although Bernie does have Thoron (for linked attacks) and Rescue (the type of move which can actually rarely be more important than Dance) and a Riding pseudo-boon, so I can see some value in her as the pick. And from a personal note, it does neatly sidestep my eternal struggle with what the heck to do with her during Advanced tier. You do have to be a terrible person to choose her for the dance competition, though.

From my understanding, it's used primarily for ltc, since when you can't be a flier to bypass obstacles, having pass is the next best thing. A stride'd dancer Bernie can cover a lot of ground no other dancer can on certain chapters especially, and relies less on having multiple competent warp users. She does have decently easy access to move +1 as well, as you said. I have zero experience with the build myself, though it seems pretty straightforward.

Rescue would probably have way too low of a range to be worth using at all(2 for most of the game?), unless you certify for a magic class along the way I suppose. We're sending her on actual battlefields we've already sold our soul anyway

Edited September 24, 2021 by Cysx

[vikingsfan92]

I might actually make a case for Edelgard as the best war cleric. Sure she has a hard time training faith magic but she has a better spell list (she even learns an additional faith spell over Catherine with the rest being identical) and does the mix physical/magical role better than Catherine. So I guess it kind of depends on how much we are taking into consideration getting into the class over how they do once they are there.

I know that the lords/Byleth can be put down as the best for pretty much any class but Edelgard in particular I think is worth noting for the war cleric class as she is probably the best suited lord to do mixed mage/physical builds on who doesn't have a unique class that allows them to do so (Byleth). It is worth mentioning that Edelgard does take a bit more work to get to the class but once there I do think she excels at it. I also think war cleric is one the better classes for the mixed role of physical/mage as I don't like trickster as much for power and the rest are master classes with their own issues.

[Barren]

2 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

I might actually make a case for Edelgard as the best war cleric. Sure she has a hard time training faith magic but she has a better spell list (she even learns an additional faith spell over Catherine with the rest being identical) and does the mix physical/magical role better than Catherine. So I guess it kind of depends on how much we are taking into consideration getting into the class over how they do once they are there.

I know that the lords/Byleth can be put down as the best for pretty much any class but Edelgard in particular I think is worth noting for the war cleric class as she is probably the best suited lord to do mixed mage/physical builds on who doesn't have a unique class that allows them to do so (Byleth). It is worth mentioning that Edelgard does take a bit more work to get to the class but once there I do think she excels at it. I also think war cleric is one the better classes for the mixed role of physical/mage as I don't like trickster as much for power and the rest are master classes with their own issues.

I never considered Edelgard as a War Cleric but it does sound like a fun idea. You can even give her Darting Blow from the Pegasus Knight class and add weight-3 since she has a boon in heavy armor.

 

She could also make a decent Valkyrie or Dark Knight because she can take advantage of both black and dark tomefaire at the same time. El has a budding talent in reason magic but black magic crit +10 only effects fire and bolganone. Neither of which has an innate crit chance.

[Dark Holy Elf]

11 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

I might actually make a case for Edelgard as the best war cleric. Sure she has a hard time training faith magic but she has a better spell list (she even learns an additional faith spell over Catherine with the rest being identical)

I admit I had no idea what spell that was until I looked it up - I was all ready to mock her having Aura or Abraxas at A, but instead it's Seraphim at B which is actually useful! And of course Luna as well (which is just great as an option for certain tanky bosses and other trouble enemies), all while having better power than Catherine etc. with Aura Knuckles which are legitimately good for erasing armour knights and the like. So that's... actually not a bad idea. Definitely a pretty expensive build since she's brawling neutral faith weak and will want that reason BT as well, and obvious it doesn't make as good use of Raging Storm as Wyvern Lord does, but certainly interesting.