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Best character for each class - no, not the other way around


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I'd really disagree with the idea of Edelgard being a good mixed attacker as a War Monk. War Monk offers no good base Magic, no Tomefaire or Mag class modifier, and only allows one cast of Luna and Hades. While Aura Knuckles can be used to one round Armor Knights, any base War Monk would be able to one round even endgame Fortress Knights with them. I'd argue Great Knight Edelgard would be a better mixed attacker than War Monk.

Even then other lords would be far better off as a War Cleric than Edelgard. Brawl Avoid +20 by itself is pretty good, but when combined with Battalion Wrath and Dimitri's Personal or Cluade's Fallen Star, it can lead to some really good results. But they have no reason to actually stay in War Monk compared to War Master, so I wouldn't say they are the best of the class.

Instead, I'd suggest Leonie as best War Cleric. Battalion Desperation is a skill that is not mention often, but it works very well here. Combining that ability to be able to quad with a high speed growth allows Leonie to have pseudo brave art that doesn't require getting A Rank in a weapons skill while also drastically lowers the amount Strength she need to one round. It also makes her quite the apt dodgetank with Brawl Avoid +20 and her high Speed Growth.

So while War Monk may be a mixed class, I'd argue the best use of it is to not even make use of magic and just focus entirely on physical side of things.

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4 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'd really disagree with the idea of Edelgard being a good mixed attacker as a War Monk. War Monk offers no good base Magic, no Tomefaire or Mag class modifier, and only allows one cast of Luna and Hades. While Aura Knuckles can be used to one round Armor Knights, any base War Monk would be able to one round even endgame Fortress Knights with them. I'd argue Great Knight Edelgard would be a better mixed attacker than War Monk.

Even then other lords would be far better off as a War Cleric than Edelgard. Brawl Avoid +20 by itself is pretty good, but when combined with Battalion Wrath and Dimitri's Personal or Cluade's Fallen Star, it can lead to some really good results. But they have no reason to actually stay in War Monk compared to War Master, so I wouldn't say they are the best of the class.

Instead, I'd suggest Leonie as best War Cleric. Battalion Desperation is a skill that is not mention often, but it works very well here. Combining that ability to be able to quad with a high speed growth allows Leonie to have pseudo brave art that doesn't require getting A Rank in a weapons skill while also drastically lowers the amount Strength she need to one round. It also makes her quite the apt dodgetank with Brawl Avoid +20 and her high Speed Growth.

So while War Monk may be a mixed class, I'd argue the best use of it is to not even make use of magic and just focus entirely on physical side of things.

First off not sure what you mean by great knight being a better mixed attacker when it is a physical attacker only.  Do you mean dark knight? If so I would like to point out dark knight is a master class and you can't access it at lower levels (talking actual character levels here and not skill levels) like you can War monk. A big reason you can go with war monk in the first place is a waiting room for a master class that you want.  I get that war monk doesn't exactly path into others as easily but you typically want to build both magics anyways if you are investing in one. So its not to much of a difference in going for say Gremory Edelgard path other than throwing in some brawling training. 

Second it honestly feels like you are more criticizing the class as whole when talking about Edelgard which isn't really the point of this thread instead of talking about characters in each individual classes despite the classes flaws. It really doesn't matter if other class options exist for a character if we are trying to isolate who is the best at a given class each time like the thread wants.

 Dimtri spell list is basically Thoron and thats it in comparison to other magic users imo which unfortunately means he isn't a mage for long each battle considering how few uses it has.  Claude has an ok spell list but Luna, Sephriam and hades are harder to come by in comparison to cutting gale and Excaibur.  I know Luna and Hades don't have many uses just like thoron but they hit so hard that its more impactful imo. Not to mention Edelgard typically has an outright better magic stat than any of the characters listed even if you aren't really going for mage Edelgard she will be able to use the magic stat better than the others in the war monk class. Keep in mind Leonie and Dimtri have 20% magic growth and lower base magic levels than Edelgard who has 45% magic growth and starts at a point higher than Leonie and two points in magic ahead of Dimtri at base (Claude has a 25% magic growth for the record and has the same starting total as Leonie).  Leonie does have physic which is worth noting and Claude does have silence but stats wise again Edelgard should be hitting harder on the magic side of things and in the case of Leonie also on the physical side. Leonie physic is not going to heal as well as any other physic users in the same class but having the option is still useful I do grant that. Claude and Leonoe do have a bit of support options but combat wise I would take Edelgard over both by alot in the war monk class personally.

Finally as to your point about not using the magic period I would argue that its more about providing versatility in offense than anything. If you find an enemy that walls physical units than pure melee classes are going to suck against them no matter who they are. Also I would like to point out that the added versatility of attacking from a space away is not nothing as it means you can attack over terrain or keep your units one space closer to the rest of your team. Which for the non-canto units like the war cleric class is worth keeping in mind especially on maddening where one space can be huge. Which is also why I kind of feel dancer is bit underrated as combat class since it gives access to both magic and physical stuff but that is a whole separate discussion.

Edited by vikingsfan92
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No I do mean Great Knight making Edelgard being a better mixed attacker than War Monk. Using Lighting Axe with a Silver Axe + already out damages Hades by at least 6 might plus Axefaire. Put it this way: a Great Knight Edelgard is capable of oneshoting Fortress Knights with a Hammer without even the need for Fiendish Blow. Add on the capability of chipping from three range with the Bolt Axe + and being able to better support Raging Storm due to Canto and Axefaire, it is a much better mixed attack class.

War Monk actively hampers using both offensive and supportive magic. Just because the class has a feature of being able to use magic does not mean it should be the metric of what units are judged by. The class should instead be judged by the usual metrics of how capable it is of one rounding, how much investment it takes to get there, and what kind of support it can provide, etc.

War Cleric cannot one round any enemies bar fortress Knights through casting spells. But it can give female units a niche in allowing them access to a Fistfaire class. Enabling a unit like Leonie the capability of being able to attack four times in a row in a way that's not constrained by Wootz Steel makes it already very good. Adding on Brawl Avoid +20 and making her able to to extend the durability of her battalions as well a participate on Enemy Phase with very little risk makes it exceptional.

The point of this thread is to ask what is the ideal performance of a class. How well a unit can cast magic should not factor into that if the class cannot enable anything with it.

Edited by LoneRecon400
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6 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Instead, I'd suggest Leonie as best War Cleric. Battalion Desperation is a skill that is not mention often, but it works very well here. Combining that ability to be able to quad with a high speed growth allows Leonie to have pseudo brave art that doesn't require getting A Rank in a weapons skill while also drastically lowers the amount Strength she need to one round. It also makes her quite the apt dodgetank with Brawl Avoid +20 and her high Speed Growth.

I'm sure she's competent enough, but I kinda feel like she isn't as appealing for this class as Catherine is - no brawling boon makes the build more expensive, and her power against things she misses quadding against is substantially worse - both because her atk is notably lower (Level 9 Catherine has 5 more Str and this expands to ~8 by the game's end, with Rivalry eating into that by at most 2) and also because she lacks Nimble Combo/Bombard. BDesperation is interesting but assuming we're angling these character builds towards evasion (and why wouldn't we, Brawl Avo +20 is a huge part of the class's appeal), the way linked attacks work mean that any decent dodgetank setup is going to be seeing zero hit (or close enough) on player phase, making the skill moot. Maybe it's relevant during the window before we get Brawl Avo? Don't think that's nearly enough though in this comparison though. Especially since Fistfaire Catherine kills a significant number of midgame enemies before they can even counter anyway.

If we're considering characters' other options, I also feel Leonie would have largely better results doing the same thing with bows - worse evasion to be sure, but more mobility (as Wyvern/Bow Knight), more range, and more power against enemies too fast to double (PBV being 16 might vs. Silver Gauntlets' 4), whereas Catherine (and Byleth) don't have a similarly obvious fallback to another weapon due to lacking non-brawling brave combat arts.

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1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

No I do mean Great Knight making Edelgard being a better mixed attacker than War Monk. Using Lighting Axe with a Silver Axe + already out damages Hades by at least 6 might plus Axefaire. Put it this way: a Great Knight Edelgard is capable of oneshoting Fortress Knights with a Hammer without even the need for Fiendish Blow. Add on the capability of chipping from three range with the Bolt Axe + and being able to better support Raging Storm due to Canto and Axefaire, it is a much better mixed attack class.

War Monk actively hampers using both offensive and supportive magic. Just because the class has a feature of being able to use magic does not mean it should be the metric of what units are judged by. The class should instead be judged by the usual metrics of how capable it is of one rounding, how much investment it takes to get there, and what kind of support it can provide, etc.

War Cleric cannot one round through casting any spells. But it can give female units a niche in allowing them access to a Fistfaire class. Enabling a unit like Leonie the capability of being able to attack four times in a row in a way that's not constrained by Wootz Steel makes it already very good. Adding on Brawl Avoid +20 and making her able to to extend the durability of her battalions as well a participate on Enemy Phase with very little risk makes it exceptional.

The point of this thread is to ask what is the ideal performance of a class. How well a unit can cast magic should not factor into that if the class cannot enable anything with it.

I have multiple issues with this argument. Number 1 is you are ignoring the range argument with the spells way too much and the fact magic in general gives additional utility like healing and other possibities.  Lightning axe is cool and all but it has other issues other than just it is one range in the fact it uses up weapon durability and doesn't let you do anything other than it. Magic comes back for free each battle while ores and funds can get tight when you are upkeeping your entire squad.  If you are minmaxing one unit you are likely minmaxing the rest so it makes upkeeping more of a thing.  Yes one could probably point this as a more minor complaint but it still there. Also for continued use of said things if you are battling alot weapons with useable combat arts can be more difficult to use right than one shot spells with less maintenance.  Even if you use the combat art  say once per battle you still are likely using it for at least one or two counter attacks on enemy phase or other normal usage which adds up over time and can create situations where you want to use but can't afford to use it. Magic you know how many times you can use it from the start and therefore you can easily plan when and where to use it.

Number 2 again you are comparing a master class to a class usable at level 20.  War cleric is usable at earlier points in time and even for some one like Edelgard with a bane in faith still can get in without as much time as it can take to get in than a master class with A requirements to get into. Especially when we factor in low percentage passes.

Number 3 and probably the biggest one by the logic you are using you are basically binding all units to there combat arts getting slight bonuses on faire skills when its not about them at all. Just because a faire skill buffs a combat art doesn't mean that unit is not also great in that class. Just because a unit has a weapon specific combat arts doesn't make the auto bad at classes that use different weapons. Dimtri for an example can't be placed as a bad sword user just because he doesn't get a faire bonus on his lance stuff which is obviously where he is best at.  He is still in the top of the crop with his strength stat alone.

War cleric is more than capable of taking out things with spells as again you don't need faire skills to kill things.  War monk Lysethia is a thing I have played with a fair amount and guess what she still nukes things with magic without the faire skill helping her. Heck I would even argue I think she is a sleeper candidate for a very good warmonk for the very same argument you are using for physical Leonie or physical Dimtri as a war monk.  Because again its not about other options existing for the character but what they do once they are in the class.   And good stats in one aspect can more than make up for lack of class exclusive skill/combat arts. Edelgard is one of Lysethia's closes competitors on the magic side of things imo. People just don't use magic Edelgard very often because she is so good on the physical side. Just because she is physical beast doesn't mean she isn't one on the magical side as well.

Also side note the magic stat that Edelgard has also helps with the class exclusive combat art hit harder in comparison to other options in the category.

 

Edited by vikingsfan92
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18 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

So while War Monk may be a mixed class, I'd argue the best use of it is to not even make use of magic and just focus entirely on physical side of things.

...Aaaaand this is why my opinion of hybrid classes tends to be very low. When the best answer to how to use a hybrid class is to ignore one side of the spectrum, and it pretty much always is, something's wrong. I mean, War Monk/Cleric worked well enough in Awakening (largely because it used magic for staves, which how much they heal for is mostly determined by the staff used), but here...

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

...Aaaaand this is why my opinion of hybrid classes tends to be very low. When the best answer to how to use a hybrid class is to ignore one side of the spectrum, and it pretty much always is, something's wrong. I mean, War Monk/Cleric worked well enough in Awakening (largely because it used magic for staves, which how much they heal for is mostly determined by the staff used), but here...

Here at least War Monk for males can grab brawl avoid +20 then move onto Grappler. For females it’s their only choice for them to get Fistfaire. I can also understand where you’re coming from when comparing them to their Awakening variant since in that game they can wield axes and staves. This can also be augmented by axefaire in which only a handful of women can inherit. Robin and Henry come to mind when passing down axefaire.

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Yeah I strongly disagree that War Monk/Cleric was better in Awakening than in this game. In that game it was a mediocre infantry class that could use staves. In this game it's still an infantry class that can use [the 3H equivalent of] staves, but it's better because Fistfaire is neat (and it's the only way for women to get it) and because Brawl Avoid +20 is a hell of a skill.

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18 hours ago, Barren said:

Here at least War Monk for males can grab brawl avoid +20 then move onto Grappler. For females it’s their only choice for them to get Fistfaire. I can also understand where you’re coming from when comparing them to their Awakening variant since in that game they can wield axes and staves. This can also be augmented by axefaire in which only a handful of women can inherit. Robin and Henry come to mind when passing down axefaire.

 

16 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah I strongly disagree that War Monk/Cleric was better in Awakening than in this game. In that game it was a mediocre infantry class that could use staves. In this game it's still an infantry class that can use [the 3H equivalent of] staves, but it's better because Fistfaire is neat (and it's the only way for women to get it) and because Brawl Avoid +20 is a hell of a skill.

Honestly, I'm not impressed by Brawl Avoid +20. It seems to lend itself to a dodgetanking build, but imho, if I was going for a dodgetanking build I'd rather use any other weapon type than gauntlets, which have only 4 might on their strongest non-relic weapons.

On 9/25/2021 at 12:40 PM, vikingsfan92 said:

Finally as to your point about not using the magic period I would argue that its more about providing versatility in offense than anything. If you find an enemy that walls physical units than pure melee classes are going to suck against them no matter who they are. Also I would like to point out that the added versatility of attacking from a space away is not nothing as it means you can attack over terrain or keep your units one space closer to the rest of your team. Which for the non-canto units like the war cleric class is worth keeping in mind especially on maddening where one space can be huge. Which is also why I kind of feel dancer is bit underrated as combat class since it gives access to both magic and physical stuff but that is a whole separate discussion.

Regarding that, in general, I find it hard to consider versatility in offense a pro for War Monk/Cleric when its magic capability is hamstrung by only having half uses.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I'm not impressed by Brawl Avoid +20. It seems to lend itself to a dodgetanking build, but imho, if I was going for a dodgetanking build I'd rather use any other weapon type than gauntlets, which have only 4 might on their strongest non-relic weapons.

If there were an equally available skill for other weapons then that would be fair. But the only one is Sword Avoid +20 which is limited to your Dancer.

Gauntlets also have a second advantage for dodgetanking, which is that their prowess skill offers 5 more avo than lances/bows and 10 more than axes/reason, at max level (slightly less at lower levels).

This means that in order to achieve truly impressive evasion figures in this game, there are only three methods:

  • use Alert Stance(+) which takes a turn
  • use Sword Avoid +20, which is limited to the Dancer
  • use Brawl Avoid +20

So basically the niche of Brawl Avoid is it lets you build a unit who can both attack on the player phase (where gauntlets are good anyway) and dodgetank on the following enemy phase.

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@Dark Holy ElfPlus if your grappler/war master has Tomebreaker and/or a pure water activated they can safely make the enemy warlocks waste their siege tomes. Ward can also accomplish the same thing. Silence can technically bypass the need for tomebreaker but then you would have to make sure that your bishop isn’t going to be punished for it by having another enemy flank them to death. Still thought it was worth mentioning.

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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This means that in order to achieve truly impressive evasion figures in this game, there are only three methods:

  • use Alert Stance(+) which takes a turn
  • use Sword Avoid +20, which is limited to the Dancer
  • use Brawl Avoid +20

I don't really agree with the framing of "only three methods", given that the first one can absolutely overlap with either of the latter two. Also, there are a few other potential avenues to high avoid, some of them synergizing with each other and the aforementioned:

- Defiant Avoid (any female unit)

- Black Magic Avoid +20 (Sylvain)

- White Magic Avoid +20 (Teach, Dorothea)

- Evasion Ring

- Avoid-boosting battalion

- Breaker skills

The latter three, especially, are generally accessible (save for male-exclusive Tomebreaker) and go well on any dodgetank build. Defiant Avoid comes lategame and requires setup, but really soars with Alert Stance+, turning "low-Hit" scenarios into "no-Hit" ones.

9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Regarding that, in general, I find it hard to consider versatility in offense a pro for War Monk/Cleric when its magic capability is hamstrung by only having half uses.

While I'm not going to defend halving magic uses for Trickster and War Monk - it was a bad decision - I don't think it hurts that much. So long as your War Monk isn't intended as your primary healer (that role should go to a Bishop or Gremory), 10 Heals and 3 Physics/Recovers is usually enough to get through the map. 1 Bolting is obviously worse than 2 or 4, but the "linked attack" gimmick is there regardless. The biggest loss comes in more pedestrian offensive spell casts, but even these I haven't found to run out (on Trickster Ignatz, for reference), unless you want your War Monk doing a lot of enemy-phasing with spells. A unit falling to 2 Thorons sucks, but one who also has Fire, Bolganone, and Nosferatu - that's a clean 14 1~2 range charges right there. If they're using fists most of the time, then they probably won't run out of offensive spells.

3 hours ago, Barren said:

@Dark Holy ElfPlus if your grappler/war master has Tomebreaker and/or a pure water activated they can safely make the enemy warlocks waste their siege tomes. Ward can also accomplish the same thing. Silence can technically bypass the need for tomebreaker but then you would have to make sure that your bishop isn’t going to be punished for it by having another enemy flank them to death. Still thought it was worth mentioning.

It's only on Azure Moon, but the Sacred Shield gambit does the aforementioned even better. And combined with the Retribution gambit... those siege Warlocks never stood a chance.

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28 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's only on Azure Moon, but the Sacred Shield gambit does the aforementioned even better. And combined with the Retribution gambit... those siege Warlocks never stood a chance.

That’s a good point. I didn’t even think about that. I never used Sacred Shield but I have used Retribution a couple of times not counting Chalice of Beginnings. So SS can stack with Retribution…..Interesting 

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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If there were an equally available skill for other weapons then that would be fair. But the only one is Sword Avoid +20 which is limited to your Dancer.

Gauntlets also have a second advantage for dodgetanking, which is that their prowess skill offers 5 more avo than lances/bows and 10 more than axes/reason, at max level (slightly less at lower levels).

This means that in order to achieve truly impressive evasion figures in this game, there are only three methods:

  • use Alert Stance(+) which takes a turn
  • use Sword Avoid +20, which is limited to the Dancer
  • use Brawl Avoid +20

So basically the niche of Brawl Avoid is it lets you build a unit who can both attack on the player phase (where gauntlets are good anyway) and dodgetank on the following enemy phase.

If you don't mind their enemy phase performance suffering, sure. It's better than those white magic avoid based builds, but only slightly.

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51 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If you don't mind their enemy phase performance suffering, sure. It's better than those white magic avoid based builds, but only slightly.

IMO it depends on the purpose behind your dodgetank build. If the goal is "draw the enemy in, dodge their hit, then kill them on the counter-attack", then Gauntlets aren't great for that last part. Higher-might and -crit weapons are generally preferable. But if you don't need that last part (i.e. you have a means of defeating them on the next player phase), then Gauntlets do the first two steps just fine.

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

While I'm not going to defend halving magic uses for Trickster and War Monk - it was a bad decision - I don't think it hurts that much. So long as your War Monk isn't intended as your primary healer (that role should go to a Bishop or Gremory), 10 Heals and 3 Physics/Recovers is usually enough to get through the map. 1 Bolting is obviously worse than 2 or 4, but the "linked attack" gimmick is there regardless. The biggest loss comes in more pedestrian offensive spell casts, but even these I haven't found to run out (on Trickster Ignatz, for reference), unless you want your War Monk doing a lot of enemy-phasing with spells. A unit falling to 2 Thorons sucks, but one who also has Fire, Bolganone, and Nosferatu - that's a clean 14 1~2 range charges right there. If they're using fists most of the time, then they probably won't run out of offensive spells.

Building on this, War Monks also get Pneuma Gale which can function as a decent pseudo spell. 7 might not including whatever gauntlet you’re using, plus 1-2 range is pretty good. Trickster suffers a little more in this regard since they don’t get a 1-2 range combat art, but if your trickster has something like Soulblade it’s definitely a good way to conserve their limited spells. In practice the only spells my Trickster Lysithea ever ran out of were the 1 use spells like Warp, Hades and Luna. Plus I think Dark Spikes on one map where the cavs were kind of a problem.

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14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

Honestly, I'm not impressed by Brawl Avoid +20. It seems to lend itself to a dodgetanking build, but imho, if I was going for a dodgetanking build I'd rather use any other weapon type than gauntlets, which have only 4 might on their strongest non-relic weapons.

Regarding that, in general, I find it hard to consider versatility in offense a pro for War Monk/Cleric when its magic capability is hamstrung by only having half uses.

 Don't look it as oh I can't do as much because I am halved but instead look at even having those one or two uses in the first place is a boon that other classes don't have. Even using it once or twice a map can be a huge bonus. Javelins and throwing lances frankly suck in three houses (they feel heavily nerfed) while swords have always lacked good 2 range options. Its pretty much just axes for the traditional physical weapons with good range capabilities and even still magic can do things ranged axes cant with magics additional effects ( Luna ignoring res, Wind magic being strong against fliers, Serphiam being strong against monsters or the healing part of nosfartu). There is value in being able to hit against res instead of defense for instance from 2 range.  Also as an aside I am not counting bows because at base they can't fight at both ranges like throwing weapons and magic can.

Edited by vikingsfan92
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7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

IMO it depends on the purpose behind your dodgetank build. If the goal is "draw the enemy in, dodge their hit, then kill them on the counter-attack", then Gauntlets aren't great for that last part. Higher-might and -crit weapons are generally preferable. But if you don't need that last part (i.e. you have a means of defeating them on the next player phase), then Gauntlets do the first two steps just fine.

It's not so much about killing them as it is about the fact that I'd generally like to at least significantly weaken them to make player phase clean up easier, which gauntlets get an F at doing. Top put things into perspective, silver gauntlets are a whopping -9 might relative to a silver sword+. That's a lot. And assuming you were doubling, that means you lose 18 damage. Yeah...

5 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

 Don't look it as oh I can't do as much because I am halved but instead look at even having those one or two uses in the first place is a boon that other classes don't have. Even using it once or twice a map can be a huge bonus. Javelins and throwing lances frankly suck in three houses (they feel heavily nerfed) while swords have always lacked good 2 range options. Its pretty much just axes for the traditional physical weapons with good range capabilities and even still magic can do things ranged axes cant with magics additional effects ( Luna ignoring res, Wind magic being strong against fliers, Serphiam being strong against monsters or the healing part of nosfartu). There is value in being able to hit against res instead of defense for instance from 2 range.  Also as an aside I am not counting bows because at base they can't fight at both ranges like throwing weapons and magic can.

Correction: Throwing weapons in general are really bad in 3H. Like I said in another thread, the only good thing about throwing weapons in this game is that they can counter in melee... which bows (which are much better tools for ranged combat, especially when fliers are a concern) can do with Close Counter. Also, if you're about to get attacked directly, you're better off equipping a stronger and/or lighter weapon than a javelin or hand axe to prepare for enemy phase. It doesn't help that the primary use for javelins and hand axes is something they aren't useful for because archers, as well as snipers and bow knights, have extra range in this game, and even mages aren't that worried about javelins and hand axes. Long story short, throwing weapons are at their nadir in Three Houses.

Anyway, my issue is that War Monk/Cleric feels more like a Master of None. On paper, it looks like a jack of all trades, but it's outclassed at anything related to magic by dedicated magic classes, and in terms of physical offense they're outclassed by Grappler and War Master, among others.

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10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't really agree with the framing of "only three methods", given that the first one can absolutely overlap with either of the latter two. Also, there are a few other potential avenues to high avoid, some of them synergizing with each other and the aforementioned:

- Defiant Avoid (any female unit)

- Black Magic Avoid +20 (Sylvain)

- White Magic Avoid +20 (Teach, Dorothea)

- Evasion Ring

- Avoid-boosting battalion

- Breaker skills

Well, I suspect this is mostly semantics and we agree on all the things that matter, but generally speaking I'd consider the last three things you mentioned to be ones that you'd layer on top of one of the three methods I mentioned. Defiant Avoid too, really - because of its low HP requirement I can't imagine wanting to use that in anything but an already seriously evade-optimized build (and even then I'm not a fan, since you're into one gambit = death territory). Black/White Magic Avoid I guess are fair to bring up though I think both have some things holding them back.

Or to put another way, I have a hard time seeing a serious dodgetank build that uses neither Alert Stance(+) nor an Avoid+20 skill, which is why I listed the three the way I did.

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

It's not so much about killing them as it is about the fact that I'd generally like to at least significantly weaken them to make player phase clean up easier, which gauntlets get an F at doing. Top put things into perspective, silver gauntlets are a whopping -9 might relative to a silver sword+. That's a lot. And assuming you were doubling, that means you lose 18 damage. Yeah...

Well, it depends upon the exact point of comparison. Typically, a dodgetank will want to be carrying a weapon light enough not to lose them any Attack Speed (and thereby, physical avoid). So, if our dodgetank-of-choice has 25-29 Speed, they might pick out a 5-weight weapon. Here, then, the point of comparison is between the Iron Sword+ (6 Mt, 100 Hit, 0 Crit, 5 Wt) and the Steel Gauntlets+ (3 Mt, 85 Hit, 5 Crit, 5 Wt). The Sword still gets the better end of this deal, but only by 3 Mt and 15 Hit (at a cost of 5 Crit). Ah, but what class are we in? If we're in a Swordfaire class, such as the high-Speed Assassin, this margin widens to 8 Mt. On the other hand, if we're kicking around in a Fistfaire class such as the high-crit War Master, the margin reverses, so that now the Gauntlets are doing 2 more damage.

...Or you could just give them a Rapier+ or Wo Dao+, each boasting 9 Mt and a boosted crit rate, for just 5 Wt. They're a bit more obscure to obtain, but can be forged with the buyable ores. Alright, Swords are generally better at dealing enemy-phase damage, including on dodgetanks. But you have to grant, Sword Avoid +20 is very limited in its accessibility, relative to the comparable Gauntlet skill.

4 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well, I suspect this is mostly semantics and we agree on all the things that matter, but generally speaking I'd consider the last three things you mentioned to be ones that you'd layer on top of one of the three methods I mentioned. Defiant Avoid too, really - because of its low HP requirement I can't imagine wanting to use that in anything but an already seriously evade-optimized build (and even then I'm not a fan, since you're into one gambit = death territory). Black/White Magic Avoid I guess are fair to bring up though I think both have some things holding them back.

Or to put another way, I have a hard time seeing a serious dodgetank build that uses neither Alert Stance(+) nor an Avoid+20 skill, which is why I listed the three the way I did.

Yeah that's all fair. Suppose I just wanted to be exhaustive on the matter. Agreed, generally, that a Dodgetank will want at least Alert Stance and/or Weapon Avoid +20. And anyone who has mastered Falcon Knight has probably already hit A+ Flying, so Defiant Avoid tends to follow Alert Stance+. Obviously low-HP builds want to beware enemy gambits, but that's true of any dodgetank build (getting Rattled can seriously ruin the rest of your Enemy Phase).

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1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Obviously low-HP builds want to beware enemy gambits, but that's true of any dodgetank build (getting Rattled can seriously ruin the rest of your Enemy Phase).

That's fair, but there's a bit of a difference of degree. While being rattled does hurt your avoid (especially infantry ones who will likely be using Gautier or the like for +20... fliers are hit less bad by this since they keep their personal Avo+10 skill and only lose 10 from Galatea etc.), you can actually still dodge through several more things, and it's possible you might even take one more hit depending on the specifics. So while not a fun thing to have happen, it is still reasonably likely to be survivable.

It's not uncommon for me to throw an advanced dodgetank build at something like 2 gambits and 4 regular enemies with a near-certain chance I'll survive the round (maybe I'll run some numbers on this later with varying assumptions). Whereas if one of those gambits is an instant kill, suddenly we're talking a minimum ~15% chance to die even if our dodgetank has maxed charm and perfect evade on the 4 normals.

I should also acknowledge that depending on the defences of our dodgetank it's possible to get in a perfect window where you might be able to take a single gambit and still not die while having Defiant Avoid active, but you'll probably have to thread the needle with getting to the HP range you need. An unenhanced Heal/Physic may be able to restore a low enough amount of HP from 1 to make this work?

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10 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Building on this, War Monks also get Pneuma Gale which can function as a decent pseudo spell. 7 might not including whatever gauntlet you’re using, plus 1-2 range is pretty good. Trickster suffers a little more in this regard since they don’t get a 1-2 range combat art, but if your trickster has something like Soulblade it’s definitely a good way to conserve their limited spells. In practice the only spells my Trickster Lysithea ever ran out of were the 1 use spells like Warp, Hades and Luna. Plus I think Dark Spikes on one map where the cavs were kind of a problem.

Speaking of Trickster, can anyone offer up any good uses for it? It's a class that I want to like, but whenever I've tried it, it's been seriously underwhelming. Lucky Seven never seems to give me the boost that I actually need at a specific time, and outside of that it isn't really any more effective at using a sword than any random class. It almost feels that if you want to have a magic+swords class then you're better off just choosing a pure magic class and then using swords anyway.

For anyone who has used it successfully, how were you using it? Like a weaker Assassin who could occasionally throw out Recover? As a support character with Stealth? As a stepping stone to Mortal Savant that can get some weapon experience in swords? Has anyone managed to get more use out of Lucky Seven than I have?

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31 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Speaking of Trickster, can anyone offer up any good uses for it? It's a class that I want to like, but whenever I've tried it, it's been seriously underwhelming. Lucky Seven never seems to give me the boost that I actually need at a specific time, and outside of that it isn't really any more effective at using a sword than any random class. It almost feels that if you want to have a magic+swords class then you're better off just choosing a pure magic class and then using swords anyway.

For anyone who has used it successfully, how were you using it? Like a weaker Assassin who could occasionally throw out Recover? As a support character with Stealth? As a stepping stone to Mortal Savant that can get some weapon experience in swords? Has anyone managed to get more use out of Lucky Seven than I have?

Lucky Seven has never ever made a noticeable difference for me. My best use of it has been the aforementioned Trickster Lysithea, who becomes a Soulblade nuke combined with Stealth to help her not die. Assassin would offer more damage, but Trickster adds versatility because she retains a charge of warp plus any offensive spells she may need. The same run, I also used Trickster Flayn as a dedicated support for my meme Anna build, where she would rally luck and stay nearby without drawing any enemy attention. I could have gone assassin, but at least Flayn can use magic as a Trickster. On the Hilda paralogue, her personal combined with stealth came in clutch and let a green unit survive against one of the enemy archers. 
tl;dr Stealth on an assassin is good enough, but Stealth on a mage is actually really fun to play around with.

Edited by Anathaco
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12 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's not uncommon for me to throw an advanced dodgetank build at something like 2 gambits and 4 regular enemies with a near-certain chance I'll survive the round (maybe I'll run some numbers on this later with varying assumptions). Whereas if one of those gambits is an instant kill, suddenly we're talking a minimum ~15% chance to die even if our dodgetank has maxed charm and perfect evade on the 4 normals.

Huh, okay. Truth be told, I haven't really used any "high-HP dedicated dodgetank" builds, so I was mostly working from theory. I also tend to avoid even the chance of being Rattled like the plague, so maybe it's worse in my head than on the field of battle.

8 hours ago, lenticular said:

For anyone who has used it successfully, how were you using it? Like a weaker Assassin who could occasionally throw out Recover? As a support character with Stealth? As a stepping stone to Mortal Savant that can get some weapon experience in swords? Has anyone managed to get more use out of Lucky Seven than I have?

Right now I'm using Trickster Ignatz. I think of him as my "Swiss Army 'Natz" - he opens doors and chests, does Rallies, can chip with spells (including Poison Strike and Seal Strength), gambits foes into place, and offers Heal/Physic support. Any one of these traits, he could do better in a different class (i.e. Assassin,  Warlock, Bishop), but it's the combination of these traits that make Trickster unique. I'm not expecting him to kill most targets, or to be my primary healer, but he can "fill in" spots another unit may be missing. I'm a fan of this versatility, but it's not always easy to find such a spot on the team.

Also, Lucky Seven is basically a gag skill that can occasionally enable some surprising techniques (huh, Ignatz doubles this turn). Stealth, meanwhile, is very welcome on a physically-frail support unit. Finally, 5 move doesn't sound great - and it's not - but free movement through forests is quite welcome.

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