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Best character for each class - no, not the other way around


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On 9/28/2021 at 3:52 AM, lenticular said:

For anyone who has used it successfully, how were you using it? Like a weaker Assassin who could occasionally throw out Recover? As a support character with Stealth? As a stepping stone to Mortal Savant that can get some weapon experience in swords? Has anyone managed to get more use out of Lucky Seven than I have?

I used Trickster Manuela, and the answer is pretty much "all three".  She doesn't mind having her spell usages cut (well, as long as you get out of Trickster before any real long final maps, and before she learns Bolting), she likes having Stealth while still packing utility as a discount assassin, it helps train her sword rank for a later Mortal Savant qualification, and Trickster has high Speed growth (admittedly, not better than Assassin) which is important if going MS eventually to ensure she still doubles a lot since her offense is total trash when not doubling.  She also qualifies for it nearly for free, which is handy when she's going to spend a lot of time catching up her Reason skill and fighting her Reason bane.

Granted, I think Manuela is something of a special case - her offense is never going to be top tier anyway, but she does have screaming speed for a mage, so she likes the benefits of Trickster while not trading that much off well.  This is less true of most other magey characters that opt for Soublade / Hexblade one-shots in Assassin or safe chippy spell damage in Valkyrie or the like in the Advanced tier.

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On 9/28/2021 at 9:18 AM, Anathaco said:

Lucky Seven has never ever made a noticeable difference for me. My best use of it has been the aforementioned Trickster Lysithea, who becomes a Soulblade nuke combined with Stealth to help her not die. Assassin would offer more damage, but Trickster adds versatility because she retains a charge of warp plus any offensive spells she may need. The same run, I also used Trickster Flayn as a dedicated support for my meme Anna build, where she would rally luck and stay nearby without drawing any enemy attention. I could have gone assassin, but at least Flayn can use magic as a Trickster. On the Hilda paralogue, her personal combined with stealth came in clutch and let a green unit survive against one of the enemy archers. 
tl;dr Stealth on an assassin is good enough, but Stealth on a mage is actually really fun to play around with.

That's fair, though I will say that whenever I've played around with Trickster, I've really not found much use for Stealth. I'm guessing that it's a play-style thing but it seems to come up very rarely for me. Maybe that's a sign that I'm playing a little bit too conservatively and could stand to stretch myself a little thinner? I don't know.

On 9/28/2021 at 5:39 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Finally, 5 move doesn't sound great - and it's not - but free movement through forests is quite welcome.

This just made me realise that Trickster and War Monk are actually the highest movement magic classes that male characters have available prior to level 30 and that just made me sad.

8 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

Granted, I think Manuela is something of a special case - her offense is never going to be top tier anyway, but she does have screaming speed for a mage, so she likes the benefits of Trickster while not trading that much off well.  This is less true of most other magey characters that opt for Soublade / Hexblade one-shots in Assassin or safe chippy spell damage in Valkyrie or the like in the Advanced tier.

I've tried Manuela as a Trickster before and I felt that the lack of a -faire skill really hurt her performance. Her middling stats in both Strength and Magic mean that she really wants to be stacking as many damage buffs as she can to keep her damage output respectable. At least, that was my experience. It was quite a while ago, though, and I can't remember it that clearly. It might have been that she just got stat-screwed for me, or something like that.

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1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I've tried Manuela as a Trickster before and I felt that the lack of a -faire skill really hurt her performance. Her middling stats in both Strength and Magic mean that she really wants to be stacking as many damage buffs as she can to keep her damage output respectable. At least, that was my experience. It was quite a while ago, though, and I can't remember it that clearly. It might have been that she just got stat-screwed for me, or something like that.

My guess is that when the Trickster class first came out, aside from Yuri whose tailor made for it people have often jumped to the idea of Manuela or Anna being Tricksters. Anna from a historical standpoint makes sense. Manuela on the other hand people really wanted to crave a niche for her using this class. So Manuela has ward, silence and warp. Anna has ward and rescue.

Plus with Foul Play, you could in theory set up a situation where she can swap places with someone then on the next turn, heal or use rally charm in case you’re going for a gambit. Also remember that Manuela at least has a PA which increases adjacent allie’s crit avoid. While not spectacular by any means it does at least provide some layer of protection whereas Anna’s is just a flat luck +5. Manuela also has supports where Anna does not so maybe by design Manuela is marginally better Anna in that role who only had Rally Luck to her name.

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On 9/22/2021 at 11:14 PM, Shadow Mir said:

>Ignatz
>Above average
Is that your idea of a joke? Because if so, I am NOT laughing. From where I'm standing, Ignatz can be summed up as "good if and only if used as a Hunter's Volley Sniper, but terrible otherwise", which is very, VERY far from being worth calling "above average", especially when getting him there may as well be getting blood from a stone.

Sniper is a fantastic class on Maddening. As someone who is obsessed with low investment, I would figure you would have a high opinion of it.

Why do you consider Ignatz bad? He has probably the best passive in the game. His Auth boon means Blaze in ch5, extra Mt and stats from higher leveled battalions, and easy access to A Rank battalions mid game. He provides very accurate gambits early game. While next to Hilda, his Curved Shot is just as strong as Leonie's (adj to a male) early game. Break Shot is great early for monsters. On top of all of that, he has the second best rallies in the game.

On 9/22/2021 at 11:14 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Likewise, I'd say you're overvaluing Vengeance. While it can be effective, it pretty much forces me to play a very specific way to get much out of it.

Vengeance kills everything. Encloser is Banshee that comes on line later. Once your units can one shot enemies the uses for CC start to diminish.

On 9/22/2021 at 11:14 PM, Shadow Mir said:

And I disagree with that, largely because I find Holy Knight a viciously bad class that is hard to justify putting anybody in, especially considering the opportunity cost is rather high. 

Just because Holy Knight is a bad class on most units, doesn't mean its a bad class on every unit. In case you missed it, most units suck as Bow Knight too.

On 9/22/2021 at 11:14 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Key words there: "on GD". AKA, only useful on one route, and even there, it's a very hard sell because it requires too much investment for too little benefit (you're asking me to invest in lances (C), flying (D), brawling (B+), faith (C), reason (A), and axes (C).

Paladin Dimitri is only useful on one route, that doesn't make him bad.

Wyvern Lord Hilda requires Lances (C), Flying (A), Axes (A) and Bows (C). It really isn't that much more investment. But once again, we are asking who is the best War Cleric, not what is Hilda's best class.

On 9/22/2021 at 11:14 PM, Shadow Mir said:

This reeks of investing in too many areas, and thus spreading myself thin). And this is ignoring authority, which I would want to invest in no matter what, because most of the paralogue battalions are great,

Hilda needs to invest in Auth either way. It is actually easier as War Cleric than WL because she has more battalion choices when grounded.

On 9/22/2021 at 11:14 PM, Shadow Mir said:

AND that almost half the initial Deer roster is pretty lackluster, and thus I'd want to replace them ASAP,

It's just Lorenz and Raph, everyone else is great. Balthus is crazy strong and he is one of the units who benefits most from Hilda's Bolting. But even if Hilda is only giving 10% Hit to 5-6 units and +3 Mt to 1-2, that is still a large boost to your team. 

On 9/22/2021 at 11:14 PM, Shadow Mir said:

which means this is not nearly as useful in actual practice as it'd be in theory. The result? There's no way I can see this as even remotely worth it. Also, Brawl Avoid +20 is not that great, to be honest; if I was using a dodgetanking build, which it seems to lend itself to, I'd prefer to use a weapon type which doesn't have its strongest weapons have less might than an iron sword (or barely more, in the case of Vajra-Mushti). Gauntlets are better for a dodgetanking build than white magic... but that's saying very little.

I never advocated for a dodgetanking War Cleric Hilda. It would probably work mid game, but the low Mt of Gauntlets means it won't keep working without QR from War Master. I mentioned that War Cleric Hilda was bulky, which she is.

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5 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Sniper is a fantastic class on Maddening. As someone who is obsessed with low investment, I would figure you would have a high opinion of it.

Why do you consider Ignatz bad? He has probably the best passive in the game. His Auth boon means Blaze in ch5, extra Mt and stats from higher leveled battalions, and easy access to A Rank battalions mid game. He provides very accurate gambits early game. While next to Hilda, his Curved Shot is just as strong as Leonie's (adj to a male) early game. Break Shot is great early for monsters. On top of all of that, he has the second best rallies in the game.

I can vouch for the same opinion when it comes to Snipers. Yes anyone can be a HV bot, but in Ignatz's case, since he already has Hit+20 as a built-in ability, Hit +20 from the Archer skill can stack which allows him to even be more reliable at hitting enemies that tend to have way too much speed. And being one rounded by much faster enemies is a bad time. I used Ignatz as my Sniper for my GD maddening run and he was really good. Better than some people will give him credit for. Now I'm sure that Assassin, and maybe Trickster can be neat ideas for him too since Stealth and rallies can be a thing, I just find a Hit +40 Sniper with HV on top to be too hard to pass up. He's not a joke on maddening by any means. The only issue he has is his early game because his damage output isn't impressive out of the gate.

5 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Wyvern Lord Hilda requires Lances (C), Flying (A), Axes (A) and Bows (C). It really isn't that much more investment. But once again, we are asking who is the best War Cleric, not what is Hilda's best class.

Hilda needs to invest in Auth either way. It is actually easier as War Cleric than WL because she has more battalion choices when grounded.

Muscling through her Authority bane if you know what you're doing isn't that bad if you have her attend the forced seminar hosted by Seteth then give her a battalion to work with afterwards. I never did work on her bow rank since I felt that would take a bit longer (assuming you're not using the infinite tutor glitch that was discovered just this past summer.) But that's why accuracy ring exists. She's just as a reliable dodge tank as any other aforementioned flier candidate.

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19 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Vengeance kills everything. Encloser is Banshee that comes on line later. Once your units can one shot enemies the uses for CC start to diminish.

In fairness, once you can one-shot enemies, the uses for Vengeance decrease too, because other setups one-shot without that annoying HP requirement. Encloser at least does its thing at high range, where one-shotting enemies is notably more difficult (Hunter's Volley is about the only way to reliably do it and that's stuck on a 5 move class, while Encloser can be used from a mount). Encloser's biggest problem is that you just plain don't get it until later; it'd be downright busted if anyone got it at C+.

19 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Just because Holy Knight is a bad class on most units, doesn't mean its a bad class on every unit. In case you missed it, most units suck as Bow Knight too.

I strongly disagree with this. Bow Knight's one of the better classes in the game. Pretty much every unit with a bow boon should at least consider it, and a few more besides.

-It's the best class to carry various ground battalions due to having Canto and full battalion access. Paladin matches it for move but is just worse unless you have certain lance combat arts - way lower range, but also lower speed.

-With 8 move, canto, and 5 range, it has almost unparalleled ability to strike enemies, which even if your stats are garbage will at worst give you the ability to aggro certain formations safely, or chip tough enemies for other units on your team. And if your stats are good you can just plain one-round enemies with said crazy high range.

-With up to 5 threat range and the ability to move where needed after acting, Bow Knights offer amazing linked attack support, second only to siege tomes.

-And that's just its generic properties. Anyone with bow combat arts benefits from seeing those increased in range (or in the case of Point-Blank Volley, having Bowfaire on a mobile class), anyone who has stat-independent (or mostly-independent) abilities benefits from seeing those increased to 8 move (although Paladin and Fliers provide other options, so you'd have to weigh what you want there).

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On 9/30/2021 at 1:31 PM, Objeckts said:

Just because Holy Knight is a bad class on most units, doesn't mean its a bad class on every unit. In case you missed it, most units suck as Bow Knight too.

I *very* strongly disagree with this. Bow Knight has insane range, which can be used for safe chipping and easy hit-and-runs. It's so good I'd consider it even for characters who don't have the boons for easy access to it, because having that much range is crazy good. On the flipside, even for someone like Marianne, who has all the boons for easy access to it, Holy Knight is a hard sell, largely because it offers nothing other, better classes couldn't do better (woo-hoo, my offensive white magic is powered up. Too bad that aside from Seraphim, offensive white magic sucks big time). If the "best" character for Holy Knight still makes it look bad, that tells me with all the subtlety of a bullhorn that it's a godawful class.

On 9/30/2021 at 1:31 PM, Objeckts said:

Paladin Dimitri is only useful on one route, that doesn't make him bad.

Wyvern Lord Hilda requires Lances (C), Flying (A), Axes (A) and Bows (C). It really isn't that much more investment. But once again, we are asking who is the best War Cleric, not what is Hilda's best class.

They don't even compare. Dimitri's broke anyway due to hitting crazy hard, among other factors, and Paladin is a good-ish class, while War Monk/Cleric rivals Holy Knight for being just plain bad.

And I already answered that with Byleth, though tbf it's more a case of her winning by default because it's very hard to justify using it for any other female characters.

On 9/30/2021 at 1:31 PM, Objeckts said:

Vengeance kills everything. Encloser is Banshee that comes on line later. Once your units can one shot enemies the uses for CC start to diminish.

I would say that the same is even more true of Vengeance, because it requires low HP to be effective, and most other one-shot methods don't require that. RE: Banshee, that doesn't completely lock enemies down, as it cuts movement by 5, as opposed to completely stopping them from moving. Also, it has similar availability issues as Encloser does, as only two units get it, and one of those is route-exclusive.

On 9/30/2021 at 1:31 PM, Objeckts said:

Sniper is a fantastic class on Maddening. As someone who is obsessed with low investment, I would figure you would have a high opinion of it.

Why do you consider Ignatz bad? He has probably the best passive in the game. His Auth boon means Blaze in ch5, extra Mt and stats from higher leveled battalions, and easy access to A Rank battalions mid game. He provides very accurate gambits early game. While next to Hilda, his Curved Shot is just as strong as Leonie's (adj to a male) early game. Break Shot is great early for monsters. On top of all of that, he has the second best rallies in the game.

Doesn't change the fact that others can do it better than Ignatz. 

Because his offense is not great, and his authority boon can only do so much to make up for that (and outside of that, he has little else to help make a convincing case for him seeing long-term use). That's no good when to level up, you have to kill things. Also, he needs to be dragged all the way to level 20 at least, certify for an advanced class, AND master said advanced class before his offense can become respectable. I don't know about you, but in my book, if you're worth calling good, I shouldn't have to jump through that many hoops. Also, it says nothing good about him when the best way to make him useful is a build that others can do better. In particular, Shamir, who's a massive upgrade over him.

TL:DR What is Ignatz good for that others can't also do? Absolutely nothing!

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45 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't change the fact that others can do it better than Ignatz. 

Because his offense is not great, and his authority boon can only do so much to make up for that (and outside of that, he has little else to help make a convincing case for him seeing long-term use). That's no good when to level up, you have to kill things. Also, he needs to be dragged all the way to level 20 at least, certify for an advanced class, AND master said advanced class before his offense can become respectable. I don't know about you, but in my book, if you're worth calling good, I shouldn't have to jump through that many hoops. Also, it says nothing good about him when the best way to make him useful is a build that others can do better. In particular, Shamir, who's a massive upgrade over him.

TL:DR What is Ignatz good for that others can't also do? Absolutely nothing!

Ignatz has the best accuracy in the game, and we're talking about one of the classes that gets the most mileage out of the stat, since it extends its reliable range of attack. HV can hit at 4 range, but -50 Hit will often be a pretty big hurdle depending on target and build.

He also does reach higher crit rates than the majority of other candidates with a 105% combined Dex&Lck growth, which is another stat HV Sniper favors(this also matters because there's a bit of a tradeoff between hit and crit when it comes to accessory and battalion, so even having too much hit can translate to more crit in that sense). That number is the 2nd best in the game behind Shamisen's 110%, tied with Claude(average is around 78%, though that's with every single character taken into account).

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On 9/30/2021 at 6:55 PM, lenticular said:

That's fair, though I will say that whenever I've played around with Trickster, I've really not found much use for Stealth. I'm guessing that it's a play-style thing but it seems to come up very rarely for me. Maybe that's a sign that I'm playing a little bit too conservatively and could stand to stretch myself a little thinner? I don't know.

 

Since it does need someone else to draw enemy attention, it’s only worth using if you have a decent enemy phase unit in your army as well, so yeah I’d say play style is a pretty big part of it. For me it’s just that it gives a bit more freedom to over-extend with squishy units like Lysithea and still have her end up fine. But if it’s not something you actively keep in mind then it probably won’t see much use. It’s kinda like Pass on Claude, where I never find it useful because I always forget he can do it until after most of the enemies are dead.

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

TL:DR What is Ignatz good for that others can't also do? Absolutely nothing!

Hunter’s Volley from higher range without having to worry as much about accuracy problems?

And also you did, in this same post, rightfully point out the value of Bow Knight for safe chipping and hit and runs from range. Ignatz can do that with more accuracy than the rest of the cast (ng+ builds with uncanny blow not included). Compared to someone like, say Bernadetta, she has slightly more damage when accounting for her personal, and access to Encloser, but if we’re looking at an enemy both can kill (such as pegasus knights, squishy mages, etc), then his higher accuracy at least gives him an edge over her there.

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To function well Stealth just needs a unit who can draw enemy fire in range. Dodgetanks, concrete tanks, or someone buffed with Impregnable Wall can all play this role. It's definitely something you have to adjust to but I do find it quite useful myself (moreso than Pass, where my experience more closely resembles yours), particularly on magic CA builds which can't take a hit easily (Lysithea, Dorothea, Constance, etc.).

Trickster kinda feels like a midpoint between Assassin and pure magic classes. Generally IMO it's a bit of an unhappy medium, though - much worse than Assassin at the mobile stealth Hexblade/Soulblade user role, much worse than true magic classes at anything related to spells (and since it's DLC we can compare it to Valkyrie which even beats it in move, too). If your goal is Mortal Savant it does save you a bit of bow training so is most useful for cases like Manuela who are a bit skill-starved to start with. And it's quite possible that the midpoint may be just what you're looking for at the time (e.g. you really do want to keep that one shot of Meteor/Warp/etc.).

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't change the fact that others can do it better than Ignatz. 

Because his offense is not great, and his authority boon can only do so much to make up for that (and outside of that, he has little else to help make a convincing case for him seeing long-term use). That's no good when to level up, you have to kill things. Also, he needs to be dragged all the way to level 20 at least, certify for an advanced class, AND master said advanced class before his offense can become respectable. I don't know about you, but in my book, if you're worth calling good, I shouldn't have to jump through that many hoops. Also, it says nothing good about him when the best way to make him useful is a build that others can do better. In particular, Shamir, who's a massive upgrade over him.

TL:DR What is Ignatz good for that others can't also do? Absolutely nothing!

I honestly think that you’re severely underestimating how good Ignatz really is even on Maddening. His damage output isn’t impressive out of the gate, but if he is standing next to Hilda early on, and gets a Rally Strength from Raphael, he gets a nice damage buff. Eventually once you get him down the fighter > brigand > archer route, he’ll have strength +2 and death blow and hit +20. His neutrality in axes makes it pretty easy for him to achieve.

 

Not to mention that with Hit+20 built into him he’s really reliable at chip damage through the game until he reaches Sniper. Plus you’re comparing him to Shamir who already joins you as a Sniper. That’s not a fair comparison to make because literally every would be archer candidate has to catch up to Shamir eventually who you can still use on your team for every route. So of course she’ll be ahead of the likes of Ignatz, Bernie, Felix and way ahead of Ashe. Hell who says you can’t have more than one Sniper on your team?

Plus his authority boon which Igantz had over those 4 is better than what you’re giving him credit for. Give him Fraldarius Soldiers or Goneril Valkyries for some crit and a forged Killer’s Bow he one rounds even the bulkiest enemies with HV. Plus Watchful Eye adds accuracy to gambits too along with Seal Strength and Poison Strike if that convinces you further.

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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To function well Stealth just needs a unit who can draw enemy fire in range. Dodgetanks, concrete tanks, or someone buffed with Impregnable Wall can all play this role. It's definitely something you have to adjust to but I do find it quite useful myself (moreso than Pass, where my experience more closely resembles yours), particularly on magic CA builds which can't take a hit easily (Lysithea, Dorothea, Constance, etc.).

Trickster kinda feels like a midpoint between Assassin and pure magic classes. Generally IMO it's a bit of an unhappy medium, though - much worse than Assassin at the mobile stealth Hexblade/Soulblade user role, much worse than true magic classes at anything related to spells (and since it's DLC we can compare it to Valkyrie which even beats it in move, too). If your goal is Mortal Savant it does save you a bit of bow training so is most useful for cases like Manuela who are a bit skill-starved to start with. And it's quite possible that the midpoint may be just what you're looking for at the time (e.g. you really do want to keep that one shot of Meteor/Warp/etc.).

Pretty much this. If your play style typically involves an enemy phaser or just a tank in general, like mine, then Stealth becomes pretty great to have around, and once it saves you a couple times you become way more aware of it.

And I also agree with the assessment of Trickster. Hybrid classes get a bad rap in this game, but I think Trickster is a good example of the uses they can have. 

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23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because his offense is not great, and his authority boon can only do so much to make up for that (and outside of that, he has little else to help make a convincing case for him seeing long-term use).

Innate Hit +20?

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's no good when to level up, you have to kill things.

Or Dance, or Heal, or do chip damage. LOL. Even assuming he's a physical unit who's getting very few kills, he can easily reach Advanced tier by the timeskip.

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, he needs to be dragged all the way to level 20 at least, certify for an advanced class, AND master said advanced class before his offense can become respectable.

Just give him a Brave Bow. Like I get it, people love Hunter's Volley, it's a great art. But even before that, he can do nearly as much damage at 2~3-range with a Brave Bow.

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

don't know about you, but in my book, if you're worth calling good, I shouldn't have to jump through that many hoops. 

Deploying and using a unit is a "hoop" now?

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, it says nothing good about him when the best way to make him useful is a build that others can do better. In particular, Shamir, who's a massive upgrade over him.

By the time Shamir arrives, Ignatz will at least have Strength +2, and be halfway on his way to either Death Blow or Hit +20. Shamir joins with no progress toward either. You can either keep her in Sniper for strong immediate performance and early Hunter's Volley, but falling off somewhat in the long-run; or, revert her to Fighter/Archer/Brigand, for valuable skills, but a lesser immediate performance. I'd say Shamir is better than in-house Ignatz, but not by a whole lot. Why not use both? 

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

TL:DR What is Ignatz good for that others can't also do? Absolutely nothing!

This is just bait at this point. No other unit offers the combination of Rally Speed and Rally Dexterity. Which are great for setting up a dodgetank, and/or an enemy-phase crit build.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/2/2021 at 2:21 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I *very* strongly disagree with this. Bow Knight has insane range, which can be used for safe chipping and easy hit-and-runs. It's so good I'd consider it even for characters who don't have the boons for easy access to it, because having that much range is crazy good. On the flipside, even for someone like Marianne, who has all the boons for easy access to it, Holy Knight is a hard sell, largely because it offers nothing other, better classes couldn't do better (woo-hoo, my offensive white magic is powered up. Too bad that aside from Seraphim, offensive white magic sucks big time). If the "best" character for Holy Knight still makes it look bad, that tells me with all the subtlety of a bullhorn that it's a godawful class.

Chip damage is not very useful by the time your units are level 30. If you have 8 actual units who can kill and 1 Bow Knight doing chip damage, that Bow Knight is only worth half a unit. If you have 7 units that can kill and 2 Bow Knights doing chip damage, then you only have 8 units. Just to be clear here, Bow Knight takes more skill ranks than Holy Knight does.

Just because Holy Knight has White Tomefaire does not mean you have to use it. The pull of Holy Knight is that it's a 7 move Canto class with access to magic. That is a niche that is only useful on a few specific units (like Bernie), but it is still a niche that other classes don't do. 

If you think Holy Knight Bernie looks bad you are crazy. She is still has Vengeance, 7 move, and Canto, which alone puts her into A Tier. 

On 10/2/2021 at 2:21 PM, Shadow Mir said:

They don't even compare. Dimitri's broke anyway due to hitting crazy hard, among other factors, and Paladin is a good-ish class, while War Monk/Cleric rivals Holy Knight for being just plain bad.

Dimitri is only available on one route, yet everyone rates him top 2. The fact that he is only available on one route doesn't make his performance on that route any worse. War Cleric Hilda performs best on GD, but is still available on other routes. Only working on one route doesn't detract from how strong War Cleric Hilda is.

On 10/2/2021 at 2:21 PM, Shadow Mir said:

And I already answered that with Byleth, though tbf it's more a case of her winning by default because it's very hard to justify using it for any other female characters.

Offensively Hilda and and Byleth are almost identical as War Cleric. But Hilda also provides this 10 range AoE buff to your whole team. Hilda is better.

On 10/2/2021 at 2:21 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I would say that the same is even more true of Vengeance, because it requires low HP to be effective, and most other one-shot methods don't require that.

Vengeance kills bosses. It always kills bosses. Other units don't kill bosses. Vengeance is this universal kill switch that kills everything. Claude struggles to kill fast enemies, WM Felix has difficulty with bulky enemies, Lys can't kill high HP enemies, etc... Vengeance just kills everything. Killing an enemy is much better CC than stopping them from moving.

On 10/2/2021 at 2:21 PM, Shadow Mir said:

RE: Banshee, that doesn't completely lock enemies down, as it cuts movement by 5, as opposed to completely stopping them from moving. Also, it has similar availability issues as Encloser does, as only two units get it, and one of those is route-exclusive.

Banshee is available much earlier when your units are not strong enough to kill by themselves. By the time you get Encloser you have better kill options. Cutting movement by 5 is plenty for when the time period when movement stopping abilities are strongest.

On 10/2/2021 at 2:21 PM, Shadow Mir said:

TL:DR What is Ignatz good for that others can't also do? Absolutely nothing!

Everyone else has kinda explained this already, but:

  • Most accurate Sniper in the game
  • Consistent early game chip damage
  • Reliable early game gambits hit rates
  • Works with both Hilda and Leonie's personals
  • Kills just as well as any other Sniper in the game
  • C Authority for ch5
  • Easy A Authority for Indech Sword Fighters
  • 2nd best Rallies in the game
  • Perfect boons for Sniper
  • Break Shot for early game Monsters

Ignatz does all of the above while only taking up a single deployment slot.

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1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Reliable early game gambits hit rates

I'm not going to wade into the whole "is Ignatz good" debate, but I do want to take issue with this one point. Generally, the increased accuracy that you gain from his personal is offset by his awful Charm. Typically speaking, each point of charm is worth 5% of hit, so when it comes to gambit accuracy, his personal is worth about 4 points of Charm. (The exact numbers can vary from this if you're sufficiently far ahead or behind the enemy's Charm, but 5% accuracy per point of Charm is close enough for most calculations.) Ignatz has a base Charm of 4 with a growth rate of 25%. We are looking for the level at which other units get to be 4 points ahead of him in Charm. Claude does so immediately from level 1. Hilda will do so, on average, by level 5, Byleth by level 6, Marianne by level 7, and Leonie by level 8.

Compared to any of these units, Ignatz starts off at level 1 with either no advantage (compared to Claude) or only 5% advantage (compared to the rest), very quickly loses even this small advantage, and then falls further and further behind as the game progresses. If this is an advantage, it's a very small one.

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3 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Chip damage is not very useful by the time your units are level 30. If you have 8 actual units who can kill and 1 Bow Knight doing chip damage, that Bow Knight is only worth half a unit. If you have 7 units that can kill and 2 Bow Knights doing chip damage, then you only have 8 units. Just to be clear here, Bow Knight takes more skill ranks than Holy Knight does.

Just because Holy Knight has White Tomefaire does not mean you have to use it. The pull of Holy Knight is that it's a 7 move Canto class with access to magic. That is a niche that is only useful on a few specific units (like Bernie), but it is still a niche that other classes don't do. 

If you think Holy Knight Bernie looks bad you are crazy. She is still has Vengeance, 7 move, and Canto, which alone puts her into A Tier. 

When it means aggroing an enemy unit without the need to put my unit at risk, that's worth a lot.

I say again, Holy Knight is a serious contender for worst Master class in the game, largely because it does nothing that the other magic classes don't do better. Canto doesn't do enough to make up for this, especially in a game that's not that friendly to cavalry units, which this one is. Also, Dark Knight is also a 7 move class with magic access - and given my opinion of it is far from stellar, there's no chance I'd have even a modicum of respect for Holy Knight.

If I wanted to use Vengeance, she could do it better as a Paladin or a Falcon Knight. Saying Bernie is good as a Holy Knight because of Vengeance alone is the epitome of crazy talk, far as I'm concerned.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

If I wanted to use Vengeance, she could do it better as a Paladin or a Falcon Knight. Saying Bernie is good as a Holy Knight because of Vengeance alone is the epitome of crazy talk, far as I'm concerned.

Again, best character for each class, not best class for each character. The idea is not that Holy Knight is some amazing sleeper class to use Vengeance in, its that if you wanted to use Holy Knight (and for the purpose of this discussion we do), Vengeance lets her do something and do it well. Doesn't matter what class it is, Vengeance is still good.

In this case, Bernie's faith list is basically just icing on the cake.

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6 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Again, best character for each class, not best class for each character. The idea is not that Holy Knight is some amazing sleeper class to use Vengeance in, its that if you wanted to use Holy Knight (and for the purpose of this discussion we do), Vengeance lets her do something and do it well. Doesn't matter what class it is, Vengeance is still good.

In this case, Bernie's faith list is basically just icing on the cake.

Well, I'm sorry, but I cannot get excited over Bernie getting access to Physic and Rescue when she'd be poor at using them, especially when it involves being in a lackluster class AND needing to play a very specific way, otherwise she's struggling to be useful.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, I'm sorry, but I cannot get excited over Bernie getting access to Physic and Rescue when she'd be poor at using them, especially when it involves being in a lackluster class AND needing to play a very specific way, otherwise she's struggling to be useful.

Put it this way. If someone came up to you and demanded that you use a Holy Knight in your next run AND they had to contribute something worthwhile to every map (otherwise, idk, every character in your game permanently becomes Raphael or something), your best bet is to pick a unit who fills a vital role that doesn't rely on a class to pull off successfully. Which is basically where Vengeance comes in. You might as well also pick someone who can reach the class easily, and who can learn some useful shit on the way there, such as an occasional physic use or small rescue to assist. You might not use the faith spells every map, which is fine, because Vengeance will be her mandatory contribution to the map anyways. But having them and not using them is better than not having them and needing them.

As for the actual value of Vengeance, pretty sure we have had this discussion in recent memory, but yeah. My opinion is basically that the high risk high reward playstyle it requires is completely worth it in a game that mitigates most of the risk. Personal playstyles aside of course, as much as I disagree with you I'm not gonna force you to play the game my way (the hypothetical Raphael Emblem: Three Courses situation notwithstanding).

Edited by Anathaco
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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, I'm sorry, but I cannot get excited over Bernie getting access to Physic and Rescue when she'd be poor at using them, especially when it involves being in a lackluster class AND needing to play a very specific way, otherwise she's struggling to be useful.

Then who would you consider the best character for the Holy Knight class? Even a bad class must have a candidate who's less bad at it than anyone else, no?

5 hours ago, Anathaco said:

If someone came up to you and demanded that you use a Holy Knight in your next run AND they had to contribute something worthwhile to every map (otherwise, idk, every character in your game permanently becomes Raphael or something), your best bet is to pick a unit who fills a vital role that doesn't rely on a class to pull off successfully.

For my part, I would probably pick Marianne. She has an easy time with all the ranks, somewhat appreciates White Tomefaire, brings a solid Reason list, can offer support in Physic and Silence, and can still do great direct damage with Soulblade or Frozen Lance.

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.
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3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Put it this way. If someone came up to you and demanded that you use a Holy Knight in your next run AND they had to contribute something worthwhile to every map (otherwise, idk, every character in your game permanently becomes Raphael or something), your best bet is to pick a unit who fills a vital role that doesn't rely on a class to pull off successfully. Which is basically where Vengeance comes in. You might as well also pick someone who can reach the class easily, and who can learn some useful shit on the way there, such as an occasional physic use or small rescue to assist. You might not use the faith spells every map, which is fine, because Vengeance will be her mandatory contribution to the map anyways. But having them and not using them is better than not having them and needing them.

I think that the problem with this approach is that it puts her into direct competition with other units who are just generically good. Let's consider a few other options who have a comparably easy time getting into Holy Knight as Bernadetta does.

First, let's look at Leonie and have her use a bow. She has a comparably easy time getting into the class as Bernadetta. That she's using a bow means she's going to have to train lances up to C on the side, but she starts at D+ and has a boon, so that's a minimal effort. And to offset that, she starts at E+ riding and has it as a natural strength, so she's quicker off the ground there. In terms of magic, she's also about on par with Bernadetta. They have the same base and growth rate for their magic stat (5+20%) and they both learn Physic. However, Leonie has Restore while Bernadetta has Rescue. Both are pretty niche, both have the potential to come in useful occasionally, and which is most useful probably depends on the exact composition of your team. In terms of raw killing power, Vengeance will typically be able to do bigger numbers than Point Blank Volley, but PBV is still going to be killing a whole lot of enemies even without Bowfaire. Leonie would also have the option of doing ranged chip damage, providing utility with Break Shot, and would only need a very small dip further into lances to pick up Monster Piercer for extra even more utility and versatility.

Next up, let's consider Sylvain, who's going to be a Swift Strikes user. Like PBV, Swift Strikes is also going to be able to kill most things even without Lancefaire. Maybe there are a few things that Vengeance can kill and Swift Strikes can't, but not all that many. They have a comparably easy time getting into the class; Sylvain is slightly better off due to his higher starting ranks in lances and riding, but it's nothing significant. In terms of magic, Sylvain has a slightly higher magic stat (same base, but 10% better growth). Both learn Physic, but Sylvain swaps out Rescue for Seraphim.

Finally, Dimitri. He has the exact same combination of strength in lance, budding talent in riding and neutral in faith that Bernadetta has. He does have his legendary sulk in part 2 that makes him a bit harder to train, but he also has better starting ranks in lances and riding. Magically, he has base magic stat one point lower than Bernadetta's and the same growth rate. He trades out Physic for Recover, which is often a stronger choice for characters with low magic stat, especially when they have high mobility. He also trades out Rescue for Aura which is pretty much an unambiguous downgrade. When it comes to just being generically good, he still has the ability to do all the usual Dimitri things. He still hits like a ton of bricks, Atrocity still obliterates everything, and Battalion Vantage + Battalion Wrath is still a ridiculous broken combo that should never have made it into the game.

And so on and so forth.

Essentially, you're not just claiming that Vengeance and Bernadetta are good; you're claiming that they are better than anyone else. Or at the very least, better than anyone who has a relatively easy time getting into Holy Knight. It's possible to put anyone into Holy Knight and then completely ignore what the class does and treat them as a slightly inferior version of what they would otherwise be doing. If that's the plan, then there isn't a whole lot of difference between "who is the best Holy Knight?" and "who is the best unit in the game?" Or if you prefer, maybe "who is the best unit in the game who doesn't have a weakness in faith or riding?"

While there are some builds which really rely on their class to be good, I think they're probably in the minority. Most units that are good are still going to be good even if you put them in a bad class. Not as good, sure, but still good. And yes, you can completely break a unit if you put them in a class with terrible movement or without magic access, but neither of those is a problem for Holy Knight.

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37 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I think that the problem with this approach is that it puts her into direct competition with other units who are just generically good. Let's consider a few other options who have a comparably easy time getting into Holy Knight as Bernadetta does.

First, let's look at Leonie and have her use a bow. She has a comparably easy time getting into the class as Bernadetta. That she's using a bow means she's going to have to train lances up to C on the side, but she starts at D+ and has a boon, so that's a minimal effort. And to offset that, she starts at E+ riding and has it as a natural strength, so she's quicker off the ground there. In terms of magic, she's also about on par with Bernadetta. They have the same base and growth rate for their magic stat (5+20%) and they both learn Physic. However, Leonie has Restore while Bernadetta has Rescue. Both are pretty niche, both have the potential to come in useful occasionally, and which is most useful probably depends on the exact composition of your team. In terms of raw killing power, Vengeance will typically be able to do bigger numbers than Point Blank Volley, but PBV is still going to be killing a whole lot of enemies even without Bowfaire. Leonie would also have the option of doing ranged chip damage, providing utility with Break Shot, and would only need a very small dip further into lances to pick up Monster Piercer for extra even more utility and versatility.

Next up, let's consider Sylvain, who's going to be a Swift Strikes user. Like PBV, Swift Strikes is also going to be able to kill most things even without Lancefaire. Maybe there are a few things that Vengeance can kill and Swift Strikes can't, but not all that many. They have a comparably easy time getting into the class; Sylvain is slightly better off due to his higher starting ranks in lances and riding, but it's nothing significant. In terms of magic, Sylvain has a slightly higher magic stat (same base, but 10% better growth). Both learn Physic, but Sylvain swaps out Rescue for Seraphim.

Finally, Dimitri. He has the exact same combination of strength in lance, budding talent in riding and neutral in faith that Bernadetta has. He does have his legendary sulk in part 2 that makes him a bit harder to train, but he also has better starting ranks in lances and riding. Magically, he has base magic stat one point lower than Bernadetta's and the same growth rate. He trades out Physic for Recover, which is often a stronger choice for characters with low magic stat, especially when they have high mobility. He also trades out Rescue for Aura which is pretty much an unambiguous downgrade. When it comes to just being generically good, he still has the ability to do all the usual Dimitri things. He still hits like a ton of bricks, Atrocity still obliterates everything, and Battalion Vantage + Battalion Wrath is still a ridiculous broken combo that should never have made it into the game.

And so on and so forth.

Essentially, you're not just claiming that Vengeance and Bernadetta are good; you're claiming that they are better than anyone else. Or at the very least, better than anyone who has a relatively easy time getting into Holy Knight. It's possible to put anyone into Holy Knight and then completely ignore what the class does and treat them as a slightly inferior version of what they would otherwise be doing. If that's the plan, then there isn't a whole lot of difference between "who is the best Holy Knight?" and "who is the best unit in the game?" Or if you prefer, maybe "who is the best unit in the game who doesn't have a weakness in faith or riding?"

While there are some builds which really rely on their class to be good, I think they're probably in the minority. Most units that are good are still going to be good even if you put them in a bad class. Not as good, sure, but still good. And yes, you can completely break a unit if you put them in a class with terrible movement or without magic access, but neither of those is a problem for Holy Knight.

Jokes on you I’m secretly a Holy Knight Dimitri enthusiast

I suppose it’s worth pointing out that Bernadetta still doesn’t have to train as much as any of those other candidates, since if you’re only going for vengeance it’s only an extra rank of lance training in addition to the Holy Knight requirements. Looking at the Leonie comparison, for example, if you’re getting her to Holy Knight, training her lances to C+ for Monster Piercer, and then on top of that getting her Bow rank to A for PBV, it seems only fair to give Bernie the same amount of training- and suddenly as well as a comparable killing art (Vengeance vs PBV), and a comparable faith list, they also have comparable ranged chip (but Bernie gets Encloser as a bonus over Leonie). Leonie needs a lot more work to get PBV, and thus Holy Knight is a lot more of a diversion for her than it is Bernie. With Sylvain, again, he has to train more in lances to actually get Swift Strikes. Etc etc.

I do see your general point, however, and I agree that judging purely by unit quality diminishes the point of rating by class in the first place. And to act as devils advocate to my own argument, the difference between when each unit gets their win button of choice vanishes if you choose to have Bernadetta go for lance prowess 5, since it doesn’t matter when she got vengeance if you go past A rank anyways (since we’re measuring holy knights, it’s irrelevant to talk about their performance before that, and if Bernadetta can get to A lances before she can get into Holy Knight, then Sylvain can as well, and Leonie probably could too).

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24 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Jokes on you I’m secretly a Holy Knight Dimitri enthusiast

I suppose it’s worth pointing out that Bernadetta still doesn’t have to train as much as any of those other candidates, since if you’re only going for vengeance it’s only an extra rank of lance training in addition to the Holy Knight requirements. Looking at the Leonie comparison, for example, if you’re getting her to Holy Knight, training her lances to C+ for Monster Piercer, and then on top of that getting her Bow rank to A for PBV, it seems only fair to give Bernie the same amount of training- and suddenly as well as a comparable killing art (Vengeance vs PBV), and a comparable faith list, they also have comparable ranged chip (but Bernie gets Encloser as a bonus over Leonie). Leonie needs a lot more work to get PBV, and thus Holy Knight is a lot more of a diversion for her than it is Bernie. With Sylvain, again, he has to train more in lances to actually get Swift Strikes. Etc etc.

I do see your general point, however, and I agree that judging purely by unit quality diminishes the point of rating by class in the first place. And to act as devils advocate to my own argument, the difference between when each unit gets their win button of choice vanishes if you choose to have Bernadetta go for lance prowess 5, since it doesn’t matter when she got vengeance if you go past A rank anyways (since we’re measuring holy knights, it’s irrelevant to talk about their performance before that, and if Bernadetta can get to A lances before she can get into Holy Knight, then Sylvain can as well, and Leonie probably could too).

I had been assuming that you'd keep on going for weapon prowess level 5, yes. I suppose that there is definitely the argument that if you want a low-effort Holy Knight then you could stop at C+ weapon rank with Bernadetta but not with Leonie or Sylvain. Which again goes back to how you interpret the initial question. Is the best Holy Knight the one that has the best performance once you get their full build in place, or the one that requires the least effort to make somewhat viable? For practical purposes, it's probably somewhere between the two, but figuring out exactly how to weight things is always going to be a judgement call. Though I will also note that if we're looking for the absolute minimal effort Holy Knight, then we can remove Bernadetta's Rescue from consideration, since she doesn't learn it until A rank Faith (for comparison, Leonie's Restore and Sylvain's Seraphim both come in at B rank Faith).

Thinking about it some more, I suppose that one possible way to run Holy Knight Bernie would be to go for something along the lines of C+ lances, A bows, B faith, B riding, B authority, which is pretty much the same as my hypothetical Leonie build. And while you'd lose out on Rescue and Lance Prowess Lv 5, you'd gain Encloser and reliable chip damage, like you said, and would also be able to pick up Hit +20 from Archer along the way. That would more than make up for the lost hit from the lower rank of Lance Prowess, and you probably don't care a whole lot about avoid and crit avoid, since you're not likely to be putting a Vengeance user anywhere she's going to be taking hits in the first place.

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6 hours ago, lenticular said:

I had been assuming that you'd keep on going for weapon prowess level 5, yes. I suppose that there is definitely the argument that if you want a low-effort Holy Knight then you could stop at C+ weapon rank with Bernadetta but not with Leonie or Sylvain. Which again goes back to how you interpret the initial question. Is the best Holy Knight the one that has the best performance once you get their full build in place, or the one that requires the least effort to make somewhat viable? For practical purposes, it's probably somewhere between the two, but figuring out exactly how to weight things is always going to be a judgement call. Though I will also note that if we're looking for the absolute minimal effort Holy Knight, then we can remove Bernadetta's Rescue from consideration, since she doesn't learn it until A rank Faith (for comparison, Leonie's Restore and Sylvain's Seraphim both come in at B rank Faith).

All fair points. Somewhat ironically, considering my argument is basically for the opposite side, my answer to what the best Holy Knight is is actually the best performance answer, or at least leans a lot more towards it. Or your answer to the initial question could be which character makes the best use of the class’ unique characteristics, in which case the discussion goes back to square one lol.

If we wanted to look at Holy Knight from a uniqueness perspective, I guess something it really has over other magical classes is being a good choice for pure support units who never want to attack and thus don’t need reason. Or, alternatively, support characters with other means of attack that they can use in a pinch (such as, like @Shanty Pete's 1st Matementioned earlier, Marianne and Frozen Lance). Since it’s the only mounted magic class that doesn’t need reason it’s undoubtedly cheaper than the others and can let the unit focus on, say, training authority to get better support battalions. So basically from a uniqueness perspective someone like Marianne or even Mercedes would be a good fit for the class- or hell, maybe someone like Manuela due to her reason bane would be better suited for it (though starting at E with a neutral in all ranks except faith kinda sucks for that).

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