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woodswake

Best character for each class - no, not the other way around

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On 8/17/2021 at 6:04 PM, Shadow Mir said:

These sound a lot better in theory than in actual practice - if Flayn, who is magically inclined, takes a long time to get any noteworthy amount of range with Rescue, which has a range of Magic/4, there's no way in hell Bernadetta will get even remotely good range with it... RE: War Cleric Hilda, this takes a lot of investment, and I find it very hard to consider this worth it.

Bernie gets bumped to 15 Magic when classing into Holy Knight. That gives her 16 Magic with the stat boost and a 4 Range Rescue. It's not amazing but there are a lot of situations where a 4 range Rescue on a Canto unit can be very strong. Her Physic is going to have 8 Range which is plenty.

War Cleric Hilda does take some investment to finish out, but it is just as strong as any War Cleric while getting there. She only needs B+ Brawling & D+ Faith to certify. Once she is in War Cleric she has decently high Mt and Darting Blow for quads. Bolting comes later, but she doesn't struggle to kill at all in the meantime.

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19 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Bernie gets bumped to 15 Magic when classing into Holy Knight. That gives her 16 Magic with the stat boost and a 4 Range Rescue. It's not amazing but there are a lot of situations where a 4 range Rescue on a Canto unit can be very strong. Her Physic is going to have 8 Range which is plenty.

War Cleric Hilda does take some investment to finish out, but it is just as strong as any War Cleric while getting there. She only needs B+ Brawling & D+ Faith to certify. Once she is in War Cleric she has decently high Mt and Darting Blow for quads. Bolting comes later, but she doesn't struggle to kill at all in the meantime.

Considering the amount of investment this needs, 4 range is ****ing pathetic, especially when I already struggle to find a use for Rescue in the hands of magically-aligned Flayn. I'd rather Bernie not be crap at everything, thank you very much.

Now you're assuming she goes through Pegasus Knight? I already think the investment you're asking for is blooming absurd, and this is NOT helping whatsoever.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Considering the amount of investment this needs, 4 range is ****ing pathetic, especially when I already struggle to find a use for Rescue in the hands of magically-aligned Flayn. I'd rather Bernie not be crap at everything, thank you very much.

It's really not as much investment as you are thinking. It's like just going the normal Paladin -> Bow Knight build, but instead of Bows you focus on Faith. Even if you don't bother giving her individual lessons from 20-30 to get the ~B Faith needed, that just means Bernie is in Paladin which is already a strong class.

4 Range is plenty considering the situations where you are going to use it. The main reasons you would not be using Vengeance is because there is a Ballista or too many enemies. In both of those cases running another unit forward and using Bernie with 7 move and Canto to pull them out is immediately useful. 

Even in Holy Knight she is still one shotting pretty much every boss. If you consider that "crap at everything" then I can't imagine what a good unit is for you.

59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Now you're assuming she goes through Pegasus Knight? I already think the investment you're asking for is blooming absurd, and this is NOT helping whatsoever.

Any player phase Hilda build is going to be mastering PK anyway. She starts with a E+ Lances, she already wants D Lances for Tempest Lance. Going PK is just D -> D+ Lances and E -> D Flying. It's better than just wasting time in Brigand from 10-20 after she has already mastered Death Blow.

All she needs to go War Cleric B+ in a neutral skill and D+ in a bane. Compare that to WL Edel, who needs D+ in Bows (a weakness) and A in Flying (neutral).

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31 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

It's really not as much investment as you are thinking. It's like just going the normal Paladin -> Bow Knight build, but instead of Bows you focus on Faith. Even if you don't bother giving her individual lessons from 20-30 to get the ~B Faith needed, that just means Bernie is in Paladin which is already a strong class.

4 Range is plenty considering the situations where you are going to use it. The main reasons you would not be using Vengeance is because there is a Ballista or too many enemies. In both of those cases running another unit forward and using Bernie with 7 move and Canto to pull them out is immediately useful. 

Even in Holy Knight she is still one shotting pretty much every boss. If you consider that "crap at everything" then I can't imagine what a good unit is for you.

Any player phase Hilda build is going to be mastering PK anyway. She starts with a E+ Lances, she already wants D Lances for Tempest Lance. Going PK is just D -> D+ Lances and E -> D Flying. It's better than just wasting time in Brigand from 10-20 after she has already mastered Death Blow.

All she needs to go War Cleric B+ in a neutral skill and D+ in a bane. Compare that to WL Edel, who needs D+ in Bows (a weakness) and A in Flying (neutral).

Actually she needs D+ in lances to certify for WL which she is neutral with. Unless you’re talking about getting her Hit +20. Then yes that will take her a while to get to archer.

I have used Holy Knight Bernadetta in my blue lions run not too long ago. She was helpful in a couple of instances like using rescue to bring one of my units into position to take hold of one of the magic orbs. The one in chapter 18 where you fight Cornelia. Those titanus didn’t stand a chance with a dancer right beside them. Bernie’s magic growth isn’t that impressive even as a holy knight but it can still serve a purpose. It’s far from her best option, Paladin, Bow Knight, Falcon Knight are superior choices for her.

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12 minutes ago, Barren said:

Actually she needs D+ in lances to certify for WL which she is neutral with. Unless you’re talking about getting her Hit +20. Then yes that will take her a while to get to archer.

Yeah D+ Bows for +20 Hit. Pretty important for Raging Storm to work well. Of course she needs D+ Lances too.

12 minutes ago, Barren said:

I have used Holy Knight Bernadetta in my blue lions run not too long ago. She was helpful in a couple of instances like using rescue to bring one of my units into position to take hold of one of the magic orbs. The one in chapter 18 where you fight Cornelia. Those titanus didn’t stand a chance with a dancer right beside them. Bernie’s magic growth isn’t that impressive even as a holy knight but it can still serve a purpose. It’s far from her best option, Paladin, Bow Knight, Falcon Knight are superior choices for her.

Agreed. Holy Knight isn't her best class. But I was really answering who was the best Holy Knight, not what is Bernie's best class.

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20 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Yeah D+ Bows for +20 Hit. Pretty important for Raging Storm to work well. Of course she needs D+ Lances too.

Agreed. Holy Knight isn't her best class. But I was really answering who was the best Holy Knight, not what is Bernie's best class.

I see. I can also see Marianne since technically she has the boons necessary. My girlfriend tried using Ingrid as a Holy Knight and she liked it since she packs Seraphim. The only faith magic spell worth using white tomefaire for. 

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2 hours ago, Objeckts said:

It's really not as much investment as you are thinking. It's like just going the normal Paladin -> Bow Knight build, but instead of Bows you focus on Faith. Even if you don't bother giving her individual lessons from 20-30 to get the ~B Faith needed, that just means Bernie is in Paladin which is already a strong class.

4 Range is plenty considering the situations where you are going to use it. The main reasons you would not be using Vengeance is because there is a Ballista or too many enemies. In both of those cases running another unit forward and using Bernie with 7 move and Canto to pull them out is immediately useful. 

Even in Holy Knight she is still one shotting pretty much every boss. If you consider that "crap at everything" then I can't imagine what a good unit is for you.

Doesn't change the fact that 4 range is pathetic. if I really wanted to get someone out of danger with Rescue, I'd likely need about triple that. 4? That's more likely to have them still in danger, only with Bernie herself likely joining the rescuee in the danger zone (especially since some of the most worrisome enemies have a lot of range). Pah.

I fail to see any purpose to giving her access to support magic that she'd be shit with using because of her poor magic. Especially when it comes at the cost of something more valuable (namely, Encloser).

2 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Any player phase Hilda build is going to be mastering PK anyway. She starts with a E+ Lances, she already wants D Lances for Tempest Lance. Going PK is just D -> D+ Lances and E -> D Flying. It's better than just wasting time in Brigand from 10-20 after she has already mastered Death Blow.

All she needs to go War Cleric B+ in a neutral skill and D+ in a bane. Compare that to WL Edel, who needs D+ in Bows (a weakness) and A in Flying (neutral).

So you still fail to see the problem with this build being extremely underwhelming for how much investment it needs, despite me spelling it out to you... Also, one of the selling points you touted was Bolting access. Need I point out that that comes at A reason, and she starts at E? Anyway, the gap between the quality of War Monk/Cleric and Wyvern Lord is about as big as the Grand Canyon.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't change the fact that 4 range is pathetic. if I really wanted to get someone out of danger with Rescue, I'd likely need about triple that. 4? That's more likely to have them still in danger, only with Bernie herself likely joining the rescuee in the danger zone (especially since some of the most worrisome enemies have a lot of range). Pah.

It's clear you haven't really though about the applications of it. If you have Bernie and a Sniper outside of range of 3 Calvary, Rescue lets you kill 1 with the Sniper and retreat both out of range. There are plenty of situations where it works. It can move grounded units over walls. Helps your Dancer keep up with the team. Allows units to attack Ballistae without getting swarmed on enemy phase.

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I fail to see any purpose to giving her access to support magic that she'd be shit with using because of her poor magic. Especially when it comes at the cost of something more valuable (namely, Encloser).

She also has Physic, which works perfectly fine with low magic. There are plenty of situations where Physic/Rescue/Vengeance will give more value than Encloser/Vengeance.

Just to be clear, I never argued that Holy Knight Bernie is better than Bow Knight Bernie. The original question I answered was who is the best Holy Knight. Not what is Bernie's best class. Holy Knight Bernie is really the only Holy Knight I am aware that can provide a meaningful contribution end game. It's still an A Tier build even if it's not Bernie's strongest build.

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

So you still fail to see the problem with this build being extremely underwhelming for how much investment it needs, despite me spelling it out to you... Also, one of the selling points you touted was Bolting access. Need I point out that that comes at A reason, and she starts at E?

She doesn't need Bolting the moment she hit's level 20. At level 20 a War Cleric Hilda, with Darting Blow, is going to be killing just as many enemies if not more than a War Monk Felix. 

The pull of Bolting is that when she gets it your whole team gets +10% Hit and units like Claude/Balthus get +3 Mt. She doesn't get Bolting at level 20, but that is similar to how Petra doesn't get to be a Wyvern Lord at level 20.

Like which units would be better than Hilda as War Cleric? Male units are lacking Darting Blow for quads. Catherine would do more damage immediately, but neither struggle to kill so it probably not worth giving up Bolting.

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, the gap between the quality of War Cleric and Wyvern Lord is about as big as the Grand Canyon.

Where are you getting this from? Who are you arguing against? I never implied that War Cleric was Hilda's best build. 

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't change the fact that 4 range is pathetic. if I really wanted to get someone out of danger with Rescue, I'd likely need about triple that. 4? That's more likely to have them still in danger, only with Bernie herself likely joining the rescuee in the danger zone (especially since some of the most worrisome enemies have a lot of range). Pah.

Just think of it like a stronger Reposition, or Draw Back. I use these combat arts all the time, so a spell which takes it a few tiles further would certainly have its uses. Sometimes, four extra spaces on the right unit can be necessary to achieve the one-turn clear.

49 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Like which units would be better than Hilda as War Cleric? Male units are lacking Darting Blow for quads. Catherine would do more damage immediately, but neither struggle to kill so it probably not worth giving up Bolting.

Someone with One-Two Punch, with a Brawling boon, who is at least neutral in Authority. So, Alois or Dedue. They don't need the attack speed for four strikes when they can just kill people in two.

3 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Any player phase Hilda build is going to be mastering PK anyway. She starts with a E+ Lances, she already wants D Lances for Tempest Lance. Going PK is just D -> D+ Lances and E -> D Flying. It's better than just wasting time in Brigand from 10-20 after she has already mastered Death Blow.

"Wasting time" in Brigand is better, actually, because she'll build her Brawling rank more quickly. She'll also be more mobile than a dismounted Pegasus Knight (the only type which can use Gauntlets).

Like, c'mon. You're asking for B+ Brawl (_), D+ Axe (>>), D+ Lance (>>), D Flight (_), and D+ Faith (<<) to even get into the class. And that's assuming no investment in Authority (<<). When is she gonna have the time to reach A Reason (_)? The very final chapter?

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1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

It's clear you haven't really though about the applications of it. If you have Bernie and a Sniper outside of range of 3 Calvary, Rescue lets you kill 1 with the Sniper and retreat both out of range. There are plenty of situations where it works. It can move grounded units over walls. Helps your Dancer keep up with the team. Allows units to attack Ballistae without getting swarmed on enemy phase.

On the contrary, that example proves you have failed to put any real thought into it. Cavalry units have high movement range (for example, a Paladin can attack an enemy up to 9 spaces away, assuming no obstructions). Also, you said "cavalry" without even bothering to specify which class they were. If they were Bow Knights, you're still fucked. Either way, this example falls flat because snipers cannot outrange most cavalry classes.

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

She also has Physic, which works perfectly fine with low magic. There are plenty of situations where Physic/Rescue/Vengeance will give more value than Encloser/Vengeance.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed by Holy Knight Bernie healing for sub-20 HP late in the game. If that's useful to you, you must be very, very, VERY generous.

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

The pull of Bolting is that when she gets it your whole team gets +10% Hit and units like Claude/Balthus get +3 Mt.

IF your team is entirely consisting of units she can A support, which it probably won't be (because you'd have to commit to a team of Byleth/Claude/Hilda/Ferdinand/Caspar/Raphael/Ignatz/Lorenz/Marianne/Seteth/Cyril/Balthus. Which is... not the best of teams, to put it lightly). Also, I would once again bring attention to how much investment you need for this: At least D+ in faith, axes and lances, D in Flying, B+ in Brawling, AND A in Reason. Are you fucking kidding me!?  Even if I was neglecting Authority, which would be foolish, this is exorbitant as to be impractical.

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Like which units would be better than Hilda as War Cleric? Male units are lacking Darting Blow for quads. Catherine would do more damage immediately, but neither struggle to kill so it probably not worth giving up Bolting.

Alois or Dedue. But I'd rather make them a Grappler or War Master instead, which requires less investment.

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On the contrary, that example proves you have failed to put any real thought into it. Cavalry units have high movement range (for example, a Paladin can attack an enemy up to 9 spaces away, assuming no obstructions). Also, you said "cavalry" without even bothering to specify which class they were. If they were Bow Knights, you're still fucked. Either way, this example falls flat because snipers cannot outrange most cavalry classes.

Admittedly, their argument would have worked against some other enemy classes. Like Assassins or Grapplers. And it could apply to playable Mages with Thyrsus, on top of Snipers.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sorry, but I'm not impressed by Holy Knight Bernie healing for sub-20 HP late in the game. If that's useful to you, you must be very, very, VERY generous.

Just give her a Healing staff, if you're not expecting her to take any enemy-phase combat. The game gives you quite a few of them.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Alois or Dedue. But I'd rather make them a Grappler or War Master instead, which requires less investment.

Woah, something we actually agree on. Grappler or War Monk is an interesting trade-off - do I want free forest movement, and the eventual promise of Fierce Iron Fist and Tomebreaker? Or, do I prefer access to healing support and occasional offensive magic, plus the eventual promise of Pneuma Gale and Brawl Avoid +20?

I don't see the investment as a huge thing, as it's just C Faith. Dedue has a bane in it, yeah, but you can train him from week one. Alois starts with E, but he's at least neutral there. For Dedue, I'd call War Monk lower-investment than War Master (double A takes work, even in boon areas), but Alois gets credit for starting with A Axes, so that side is a non-issue. Of course, either will still need to hit the level requirement.

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Honestly I agree and can see Dedue, Raphael or Alois being the best for War Monk if we have to pick one and ignore Grappler and War Master. They all get Recover, which aside from Physic, is the best healing spell available and require low investment to get into the class, having Brawling boons and being neutral in Faith. Alois is probably better since he starts off with B Brawling in the first place. In the grand scheme of things, War Monk/Cleric is just not a good class anyone wants to end up in the first place unless you really want to go through it for Brawl Avo +20 lol.

On the topic of Holy Knight, I would say Ingrid or Sylvain would best in it tbh. They both learn Physic and Seraphim allowing them allowing to provide distant support while also using White Tomefaire to the best of ability and have the relavant boons (Lances and especially Riding). If you want a purely combat Holy Knight, Lysithea would by far the best Holy Knight, making full use of White Tomefaire with Seraphim and Abraxas. Again though, Holy Knight is really just not a good class in the first place so...

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12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Someone with One-Two Punch, with a Brawling boon, who is at least neutral in Authority. So, Alois or Dedue. They don't need the attack speed for four strikes when they can just kill people in two.

Except there are lots of enemies who won't die to One-Two Punch but will die to 4x. Like Paladins in ch22 VW with 37 Prt and 73 HP.

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"Wasting time" in Brigand is better, actually, because she'll build her Brawling rank more quickly. She'll also be more mobile than a dismounted Pegasus Knight (the only type which can use Gauntlets).

You don't need to dismount in PK. She can just use Axes (helps get from D -> D+ Axes for Brigand), Bows, or Lances. She can use Fists when she is in Brigand, but it's not worth a worse lv10-20 just to get 50-100 wexp in fists.

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Like, c'mon. You're asking for B+ Brawl (_), D+ Axe (>>), D+ Lance (>>), D Flight (_), and D+ Faith (<<) to even get into the class. And that's assuming no investment in Authority (<<). When is she gonna have the time to reach A Reason (_)? The very final chapter?

That really isn't that much investment. The following math is a bit handwavey, but ill assume a weakness is x2 total xp and a strength is x0.5 total xp. The total xp listed above, not counting authority, is  

960 + (180 - 100)*.5 + (180 - 40)*.5 + 100 + 180*2 + 1320 = 2850 wexp

The normal WL Hilda build is A Axes (+), D+ Lances (+),  A+ Flight (_), D+ Bows (_). This requires:

(1320 - 100)*.5 + (180 - 40)*.5 + 1760 + 180 = 2620 wexp

Now of course the math isn't as simple as x0.5 for strengths and x2 for weaknesses. Lectures give -20% for weaknesses and +20% for strengths. Individual training weakness/strengths become less pronounced when you factor in saint statues and sauna. But I think you can clearly see that getting an Alert Stance+ WL Hilda takes a comparable amount of effort as a Bolting War Cleric Hilda. She won't have Bolting at level 20, but she should have it ~lv30 when your other units are getting buffs from certifying into master classes.

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On the contrary, that example proves you have failed to put any real thought into it. Cavalry units have high movement range (for example, a Paladin can attack an enemy up to 9 spaces away, assuming no obstructions). Also, you said "cavalry" without even bothering to specify which class they were. If they were Bow Knights, you're still fucked. Either way, this example falls flat because snipers cannot outrange most cavalry classes.

Your are stuck on this because you just don't want to admit that a 4 range Rescue has uses. You obviously have not tried to use it. If a 2 range Reposition has uses the a 4 range Rescue is going to have even more uses.

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Sorry, but I'm not impressed by Holy Knight Bernie healing for sub-20 HP late in the game. If that's useful to you, you must be very, very, VERY generous.

It starts out at 23 with a Healing Staff. Comparatively a level 30 Dark Knight Marianne's Physic is going to heal ~27 HP. You get plenty of mileage out of Marianne's Physic, -4 Healing isn't going to change that.

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IF your team is entirely consisting of units she can A support, which it probably won't be (because you'd have to commit to a team of Byleth/Claude/Hilda/Ferdinand/Caspar/Raphael/Ignatz/Lorenz/Marianne/Seteth/Cyril/Balthus. Which is... not the best of teams, to put it lightly). Also, I would once again bring attention to how much investment you need for this: At least D+ in faith, axes and lances, D in Flying, B+ in Brawling, AND A in Reason. Are you fucking kidding me!?  Even if I was neglecting Authority, which would be foolish, this is exorbitant as to be impractical.

So Byleth/Claude/Hilda/Ferd/Ignatz/Seteth/Cyril/Balthus are all 8 very strong units. Then you throw in a Bishop and Dancer who don't care about linked attacks and you have a full team. You are also intentionally ignoring Leonie/Lys/Sylvain who have B Supports and would still appreciate +7 Hit.

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Alois or Dedue. But I'd rather make them a Grappler or War Master instead, which requires less investment.

No one asked what class you would make Alois or Dedue.

The reality is that as War Monk, Alois/Dedue have the same or less killing power than Hilda because they lack the ability to quad. They also don't provide a +Hit boost to your team.

Even comparing the investments of War Cleric Hilda vs War Monk Alois/Dedue, I don't think there is a clear winner. Alois can't be recruited until ch11, but he probably won't be able to get into War Monk until Ch12 because of his E Faith. Hilda will easily be in War Cleric by the time you recruit Alois, yet alone class him into War Monk.

Dedue has the same Faith weakness as Hilda, but he does get into War Monk with less investment. But at the same time his gender prevents him from going PK, so he is weaker on the way to War Monk. 

Edited by Objeckts

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54 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

That really isn't that much investment. The following math is a bit handwavey, but ill assume a weakness is x2 total xp and a strength is x0.5 total xp. The total xp listed above, not counting authority, is  

960 + (180 - 100)*.5 + (180 - 40)*.5 + 100 + 180*2 + 1320 = 2850 wexp

The normal WL Hilda build is A Axes (+), D+ Lances (+),  A+ Flight (_), D+ Bows (_). This requires:

(1320 - 100)*.5 + (180 - 40)*.5 + 1760 + 180 = 2620 wexp

Now of course the math isn't as simple as x0.5 for strengths and x2 for weaknesses. Lectures give -20% for weaknesses and +20% for strengths. Individual training weakness/strengths become less pronounced when you factor in saint statues and sauna. But I think you can clearly see that getting an Alert Stance+ WL Hilda takes a comparable amount of effort as a Bolting War Cleric Hilda. She won't have Bolting at level 20, but she should have it ~lv30 when your other units are getting buffs from certifying into master classes.

I respect you doing the rough math. That said, my vision of "Wyvern Lord Hilda" is much simpler: A Axes (>>), C Lances (>>), B+ Flight (_), and C Armor (_*). Assuming a path of Fighter -> Brigand -> Pegasus Knight -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord, and getting Weight -3 on the side. Doing similar math, even assuming Armor remains neutral, this would demand:

(1320 - 100) * 0.5 + (300 - 60) * 0.5 + 960 * 1.0 + 300 * 1.0

= 1220 * 0.5 + 240 * 0.5 + 960 + 300

= 610 + 120 + 960 + 300

= 1990 wexp

That is to say, a little over two-thirds of what your proposed War Cleric build takes. So, more space to work on her Authority, or go for Prowess Lv. 5. I don't have Hilds go for Bows because I don't see getting three Intermediate masteries as particularly practical. Axe Prowess, Death Blow, Darting Blow, Strength +2, and Weight -3/Lancebreaker is already a great skill set. Speaking of which, I'm envisioning a player-phase build, so striving for Alert Stance+ is unnecessary.

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

You don't need to dismount in PK. She can just use Axes (helps get from D -> D+ Axes for Brigand), Bows, or Lances. She can use Fists when she is in Brigand, but it's not worth a worse lv10-20 just to get 50-100 wexp in fists.

You're probably not getting her to B+ in a neutral weapon type pre-skip if you're not either A) making her use that weapon most of the time in battle, or B) training/instructing her in it basically all the time. Your stated plan is to not do A, but also not to do B, because you need to raise her Lance/Flight/Bow ranks for Intermediate certifications. And this is taking "no investment in Authority" for granted. Enjoy Pegasus Hilda not having the minimum D Authority for any flying battalions.

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18 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I respect you doing the rough math. That said, my vision of "Wyvern Lord Hilda" is much simpler: A Axes (>>), C Lances (>>), B+ Flight (_), and C Armor (_*). Assuming a path of Fighter -> Brigand -> Pegasus Knight -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord, and getting Weight -3 on the side. Doing similar math, even assuming Armor remains neutral, this would demand:

(1320 - 100) * 0.5 + (300 - 60) * 0.5 + 960 * 1.0 + 300 * 1.0

= 1220 * 0.5 + 240 * 0.5 + 960 + 300

= 610 + 120 + 960 + 300

= 1990 wexp

That is to say, a little over two-thirds of what your proposed War Cleric build takes. So, more space to work on her Authority, or go for Prowess Lv. 5. I don't have Hilds go for Bows because I don't see getting three Intermediate masteries as particularly practical. Axe Prowess, Death Blow, Darting Blow, Strength +2, and Weight -3/Lancebreaker is already a great skill set. Speaking of which, I'm envisioning a player-phase build, so striving for Alert Stance+ is unnecessary.

Why not get 3 intermediate masteries? Hilda has bad Dex, Axes are inaccurate, and +20 Hit is good even on high accuracy units?

The point I am making is not that Bolting War Cleric Hilda is low investment, it's not. But it is comparable investment to Hilda's best end game build, Battalion Wrath + Alert Stance+ WL. 

18 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

You're probably not getting her to B+ in a neutral weapon type pre-skip if you're not either A) making her use that weapon most of the time in battle, or B) training/instructing her in it basically all the time. Your stated plan is to not do A, but also not to do B, because you need to raise her Lance/Flight/Bow ranks for Intermediate certifications. And this is taking "no investment in Authority" for granted. Enjoy Pegasus Hilda not having the minimum D Authority for any flying battalions.

Just to be clear, I have run it before and gotten Hilda in War Cleric at lv21 after mastering both Brigand and PK. She starts with E+ Lances and D Axes. The only requirement out of the way are D Flying and D+ Faith. It is completely doable to get B+ Brawling in time for her to certify as War Cleric. 

Hilda's Authority is not an issue for PK. Just mastering Brigand and Fighter with a battalion equipped is 80-110 Authority xp (depending one when you upgrade the class xp saint statue). D Authority is only 100 xp.

Once she gets into War Cleric you can just focus on Reason/Auth to get C ranked battalions.

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1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Why not get 3 intermediate masteries? Hilda has bad Dex, Axes are inaccurate, and +20 Hit is good even on high accuracy units?

Because by the time I've gotten 2, she's probably at least level 20, and I'd rather have her perform as a Wyvern Rider than an Archer. I'd be putting off short-term utility for a hypothetical long-term reward. Make no mistake, I'm not questioning Hit +20's merits as a skill.

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

The point I am making is not that Bolting War Cleric Hilda is low investment, it's not. But it is comparable investment to Hilda's best end game build, Battalion Wrath + Alert Stance+ WL. 

Fair enough. That's not the build I had envisioned upon hearing "Wyvern Lord Hilda". It certainly sounds like a strong EP one, admittedly. 

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Just to be clear, I have run it before and gotten Hilda in War Cleric at lv21 after mastering both Brigand and PK. She starts with E+ Lances and D Axes. The only requirement out of the way are D Flying and D+ Faith. It is completely doable to get B+ Brawling in time for her to certify as War Cleric. 

On NG Maddening? That's quite impressive. How long beyond that did it take to get Bolting?

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Hilda's Authority is not an issue for PK. Just mastering Brigand and Fighter with a battalion equipped is 80-110 Authority xp (depending one when you upgrade the class xp saint statue). D Authority is only 100 xp.

Fair enough, if you're using E Battalions as a Brigand. Wait - I thought we were going into Pegasus Knight first, then Brigand. If she's Pegasus Knight second, what weapon is she using? Neither Lances nor Axes will advance her toward her next class goal. Is it Bows, to go Archer third?

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Once she gets into War Cleric you can just focus on Reason/Auth to get C ranked battalions.

That she was no higher than D+ Authority this whole time is... oof. I tend to raise it intentionally on everyone, so that may limit my "out-of-the-box" thinking on certain builds that demand forgoing any focus on Authority. Still, not getting even C-ranked battalions until Advanced tier is a weak point.

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5 hours ago, Objeckts said:

No one asked what class you would make Alois or Dedue.

The reality is that as War Monk, Alois/Dedue have the same or less killing power than Hilda because they lack the ability to quad. They also don't provide a +Hit boost to your team.

Even comparing the investments of War Cleric Hilda vs War Monk Alois/Dedue, I don't think there is a clear winner. Alois can't be recruited until ch11, but he probably won't be able to get into War Monk until Ch12 because of his E Faith. Hilda will easily be in War Cleric by the time you recruit Alois, yet alone class him into War Monk.

Dedue has the same Faith weakness as Hilda, but he does get into War Monk with less investment. But at the same time his gender prevents him from going PK, so he is weaker on the way to War Monk. 

You want reality? I'll serve up a heaping dish of it: No one wants to end in War Monk/Cleric regardless of their performance in said class, because it's just not a good class. If I wanted combat, I'd rather go to Grappler, War Master (for males), Bow Knight, or (insert any better class here) instead, whereas if I wanted support, Bishop and Gremory do it better. Compromising my unit by having them in that class does me no favours. Therefore, I don't give a damn about who's the best War Monk/Cleric because that class blows dick.

5 hours ago, Objeckts said:

So Byleth/Claude/Hilda/Ferd/Ignatz/Seteth/Cyril/Balthus are all 8 very strong units. Then you throw in a Bishop and Dancer who don't care about linked attacks and you have a full team. You are also intentionally ignoring Leonie/Lys/Sylvain who have B Supports and would still appreciate +7 Hit.

Way to miss the point there. That's a very specific team that requires.the hardest recruit in the game (Ferdinand), as well as at least three units that are not exactly good (Cyril, Lorenz, Raphael, Ignatz). Also, I disagree on Cyril and Ignatz being "very strong units".

5 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Your are stuck on this because you just don't want to admit that a 4 range Rescue has uses. You obviously have not tried to use it. If a 2 range Reposition has uses the a 4 range Rescue is going to have even more uses.

I said it before - Are you that naive as to think I'll find a use for a 4 range rescue when I already struggle to find a use for Flayn's Rescue because this game gutted Rescue's range??? Come on now. I have a disdain for high-investment builds that offer rather little, which this reeks of.

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Therefore, I don't give a damn about who's the best War Monk/Cleric because that class blows dick.

Don't participate in a discussion about whether Hilda is or isn't the best War Monk/Cleric in the game, and then turn around and spout this drivel. If you really don't care, don't act as though you do.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I said it before - Are you that naive as to think I'll find a use for a 4 range rescue when I already struggle to find a use for Flayn's Rescue because this game gutted Rescue's range??? Come on now. I have a disdain for high-investment builds that offer rather little, which this reeks of.

Trying my hardest not to read this as a rather clumsy self-own. Anyway, are you referring to infantry Flayn? Because having Rescue on a mounted unit is a different beast entirely.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You want reality? I'll serve up a heaping dish of it: No one wants to end in War Monk/Cleric regardless of their performance in said class, because it's just not a good class. If I wanted combat, I'd rather go to Grappler, War Master (for males), Bow Knight, or (insert any better class here) instead, whereas if I wanted support, Bishop and Gremory do it better. Compromising my unit by having them in that class does me no favours. Therefore, I don't give a damn about who's the best War Monk/Cleric because that class blows dick.

This is literally a thread about who is the best unit in every class. If you don't care about who the best War Monk is why are you arguing about it? It's like if people are discussing there favorite FE3H Lord and you are just arguing that they should of picked Ike.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Way to miss the point there. That's a very specific team that requires.the hardest recruit in the game (Ferdinand), as well as at least three units that are not exactly good (Cyril, Lorenz, Raphael, Ignatz). Also, I disagree on Cyril and Ignatz being "very strong units".

You don't need that specific team. Even buffing half the team is very strong. Leonie appreciates the +7 Hit a lot when going Bow Knight. Lys always appreciates +7 Hit. Sylvain is always looking for ways to get more hit.

In what world are Cyril/Ignatz not strong? Maybe on Hard, but on Maddening they are both great. Cyril can get PBV in Ch5. He one shots every enemy except the FK with PBV and a Steel Bow+. He is one of the very few units capable of solo killing in ch5-6. From there he has great strengths for WL, Vengeance, Point-Blank Volley, and great growths to carry him into end game.

Ignatz has the best passive in the game. It allows for accurate Gambits/Curved Shots early game. He has Rally Spd for early game. Break Shot is strong early/mid to weaken monsters. He benefits from Hilda's passive on GD, so he hits just as hard with bows as Leonie. He has an Authority boon to get access to the C ranked battalions in ch5. Late game he just kills things with a high crit chance and Hunter's Volley. Not to mention an Authority boon for easy access to Indech Sword Fighters.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I said it before - Are you that naive as to think I'll find a use for a 4 range rescue when I already struggle to find a use for Flayn's Rescue because this game gutted Rescue's range??? Come on now. I have a disdain for high-investment builds that offer rather little, which this reeks of.

I apologize for thinking highly of you. My bad I won't make the mistake again of assuming you can figure out how movement abilities work in a tactics game.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

On NG Maddening? That's quite impressive. How long beyond that did it take to get Bolting?

If I remember correctly I think it was right after timeskip in ch14 or ch15. But that was basically full sauna abuse. 

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Fair enough, if you're using E Battalions as a Brigand. Wait - I thought we were going into Pegasus Knight first, then Brigand. If she's Pegasus Knight second, what weapon is she using? Neither Lances nor Axes will advance her toward her next class goal. Is it Bows, to go Archer third?

It's mainly Tempest Lance and Curved Shot until Hilda can double. But the full build is Brigand -> PK -> Archer -> War Cleric -> Bolting. But I ended up back tracking for +20 Hit using her as an adjunct with a Knowledge Gem when the deployment slots were limited. 

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That she was no higher than D+ Authority this whole time is... oof. I tend to raise it intentionally on everyone, so that may limit my "out-of-the-box" thinking on certain builds that demand forgoing any focus on Authority. Still, not getting even C-ranked battalions until Advanced tier is a weak point.

That is a valid downside. One she gets to C she is pretty much done, but going for B+ Brawling delays it.

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2 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

If I remember correctly I think it was right after timeskip in ch14 or ch15. But that was basically full sauna abuse. 

Interesting - I have a love/hate relationship with the Sauna. Love it when it works, hate it when it doesn't. In theory, I'd reset the game if I get a failed sauna session. In practice, that's not something I have time for.

Oh, were you training her Reason pre-skip as well? It's hard to envision that, on top of going for B+ Brawling and all the Intermediate certification skill levels.

2 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

It's mainly Tempest Lance and Curved Shot until Hilda can double. But the full build is Brigand -> PK -> Archer -> War Cleric -> Bolting. But I ended up back tracking for +20 Hit using her as an adjunct with a Knowledge Gem when the deployment slots were limited. 

Not a big surprise. I'm not strictly against back-tracking (right now I'm aux back-tracking Leonie to master Archer, despite having gotten her into Sniper). But that's only her second Intermediate class. Achieving three in a single playthrough is... impressive, to say the least.

9 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

I apologize for thinking highly of you. My bad I won't make the mistake again of assuming you can figure out how movement abilities work in a tactics game.

Oof. Was not expecting to see a Lethality proc today, haha.

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Yeah I definitely agree that Hilda will make a better War Cleric than Alois/Dedue. They have more power with One-Two Punch, but Hilda quads more (and also has more speed for evasion which is nice when this class picks up a +20 avoid skill). Even assuming those two effects balance offensively (Objeckts already provided at least one data point where they don't), Hilda is providing Bolting support, which is really damn good. And she absolutely showcases the class better.

If you want pure power the best War Monk/Cleric is probably Catherine anyway; her strength and speed are both monstrous and Nimble Combo/Bombard are not much weaker than One-Two Punch against things that she somehow fails to quad and/or just wants to avoid a counter from, especially considering Crest of Charon (91% chance for at least +5 damage). FByleth is similar but a bit weaker and lacks the two-hit brawling combat arts.

I personally rarely bother with Hit+20 and still manage to reach high accuracy with pretty much all my builds, but there are a lot of ways to get accuracy in this game (battalions, linked attacks, Acc Ring, Uncanny Blow for mages) and I don't like delaying my advance into Advanced tier further. It's obviously a valid option, though.

Also I do have to mention that 180 skill exp, even for a bane, doesn't add much expense to a build. The 0.5x multiplier is definitely not appropriate when considering training bows/axes for an intermediate mastery, because you can easily get 180 exp from passive instruction alone (just over 11 weeks), where the multiplier is 0.8 instead.

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8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Don't participate in a discussion about whether Hilda is or isn't the best War Monk/Cleric in the game, and then turn around and spout this drivel. If you really don't care, don't act as though you do.

Damn I thought this was a roast and a half, then

6 hours ago, Objeckts said:

I apologize for thinking highly of you. My bad I won't make the mistake again of assuming you can figure out how movement abilities work in a tactics game

This happened. Goddamn.

As for the topic at hand, yeah I’d rather have a War Cleric Hilda than War Monk Alois/Dedue, mainly because you’d rather have the latter two in either of the male brawling classes. Which, yes, goes against the whole point of this thread, but that’s the truth. War Cleric/Monk is better shown off on female units who actually appreciate the fist faire access IMO. That being said, I’m a lot more lax on grinding than a lot of other people, so if you can accomplish Bolting War Cleric Hilda by chapter 14 or so, even if it takes sauna abuse or an aux battle or two to achieve, then that’s cool in my book.

And on the topic of being ok with grinding my personal favourite is definitely Constance, because her with the aura knuckles are just a massive delete button. Time taken to get up and running? Conflict between mage classes and training fists? What are you talking about?

Actually I’m trying it on a NG Maddening file rn so we’ll see how it goes. The actual best I’d agree is probably Catherine or Byleth.

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17 hours ago, Objeckts said:

I apologize for thinking highly of you. My bad I won't make the mistake again of assuming you can figure out how movement abilities work in a tactics game.

This coming from someone who's trying to sell me a bunch of bullshit. How mature. Holy Knight is a hard sell even for Marianne, who has all the boons for it, let alone someone who doesn't have the magic to use support magic well. 

17 hours ago, Objeckts said:

In what world are Cyril/Ignatz not strong? Maybe on Hard, but on Maddening they are both great. Cyril can get PBV in Ch5. He one shots every enemy except the FK with PBV and a Steel Bow+. He is one of the very few units capable of solo killing in ch5-6. From there he has great strengths for WL, Vengeance, Point-Blank Volley, and great growths to carry him into end game.

The one where starting well behind everyone else is awful, and you don't have enough going for you to make up for it. If this sounds familiar, and it should, it's because this same story summed up the last two units with Aptitude (Donnel and Mozu). By the way, you didn't even make an effort to defend Ignatz.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

This coming from someone who's trying to sell me a bunch of bullshit. How mature. Holy Knight is a hard sell even for Marianne, who has all the boons for it, let alone someone who doesn't have the magic to use support magic well.

She uses Physic just as well as anyone and 4 ranged Rescue is strong. Holy Knight is much worse on Marianne because unlike Bernie, she doesn't have Vengeance or Rescue.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

The one where starting well behind everyone else is awful, and you don't have enough going for you to make up for it. If this sounds familiar, and it should, it's because this same story summed up the last two units with Aptitude (Donnel and Mozu).

Except he doesn't start out behind. As I previously mentioned he is one round killing enemies in ch5. That is well above where other units are at that point. Even if had had 0% growths he would still be strong because PBV kills the chapter he joins and Vengeance never falls off.

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7 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Except he doesn't start out behind. As I previously mentioned he is one round killing enemies in ch5. That is well above where other units are at that point. Even if had had 0% growths he would still be strong because PBV kills the chapter he joins and Vengeance never falls off.

Just quoting this so I can back it up with the maff.

So Cereal starts with 10 strength if you recruit him in chapter 5. Doing so puts him remarkably close to learning Point Blank Volley at C+ Bows. If you give him a forged steel bow, which has 11 might, and have him use PBV, which adds an extra 3, he has 24 attack and auto doubles. Alliance Brawlers is an E rank battalion which gives 4 physical attack at max (btw this is assuming GD since this whole argument started as a response to a team that could be supported by Bolting Hilda). Anyway, that brings him up to 28 attack. The Thieves on the map, for example, have 34 health and 12 protection, meaning he’s one point of strength away from one rounding them. If you have a spare rocky burdock from gardening give him that, otherwise throw him next to Hilda for Advocate, and boom. The mages and archers are both weaker than the thieves so they die too. There’s one thief with some extra prt (I think he has a battalion) but advocate kills him, same with the fighters on the map. There are a few armoured enemies on the map that he can’t one round (including the boss himself) but short of a recruited Catherine, maybe a particularly strong gauntlet user (like Felix if his crest activates enough), or NG+ shenanigans, nobody else can either, and being able to one round at all this early is good in and of itself.

And keep in mind the above was fairly conservative too- if we included the DLC strength booster, for example, he can even one round the fortress knight in the corner of the map by equipping a mace (Advocate still needed).

So yeah, despite having aptitude Cyril isn’t really a Donnel or a Mozu at all, he’s just a unit that starts solid and stays solid.

9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

By the way, you didn't even make an effort to defend Ignatz.

Um

On 8/21/2021 at 10:06 AM, Objeckts said:

Ignatz has the best passive in the game. It allows for accurate Gambits/Curved Shots early game. He has Rally Spd for early game. Break Shot is strong early/mid to weaken monsters. He benefits from Hilda's passive on GD, so he hits just as hard with bows as Leonie. He has an Authority boon to get access to the C ranked battalions in ch5. Late game he just kills things with a high crit chance and Hunter's Volley. Not to mention an Authority boon for easy access to Indech Sword Fighters.

 

His comment wasn’t even edited so it was definitely there from the start.

Anyway, in addition to this I’d add: Mir, one of your most prominent takes is that stuff (be it characters or weapons) sucks because of low accuracy (Crusher being probably your most cited 3H example, and an easy way to argue my point). 3H mitigates low accuracy through many many means, such as battalions, hit + 20, linked attacks, etc, which can be used to patch up Crusher’s hit pretty easily if you struggle with it (especially since it comes post timeskip when access to all the best stuff is easier)- but inaccuracies in the early game are a lot harder to fix. I’d imagine a unit like Ignatz, who doesn’t have to worry about his hit, well, ever, but especially not early on, would be rated a lot higher in your book- as pointed out, it’s not as if he suffers too badly damage wise compared to units like Leonie, and early rally speed really takes some pressure off in chapter 2 of maddening at the very least.

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