How good are javelins and the like?

[Armchair General]

I'm sitting here, thinking about random stuff while I'm playing 3H and I noticed that I've barely used my javelin and short spear. And it got me thinking about why these things stopped being useful to me. At this point, I'm on the verge of buying silver weapons out of boredom and I'm already using the steel ones. Plus, my team can reliably survive melee, so there's hardly any reason to chuck a spear or two unless I'm at a chokepoint.

 

And it's not just in 3H, either; considering that I barely used Arthur's hand axe or any of the special weapons aside from the Spirit Katana. Although with Fates, this is probably a pitfall or something.

[LoneStar]

The 1-2 weapons in 3H are pretty trash. Anyone can use an Iron Bow which is better all around as a range weapon, and for a D rank in Bows anyone can use Mini Bow.

Halfway through part one if you're playing with the Blue Lions you get a Retribution gambit that gives units in range Distant Counter anyway. For other routes getting someone to A rank Authority lets someone use the other battalion has Retribution.

The only use for those 1-2 melee weapons is when you have Faire skills so that they do decent chip damage compared to just using a Mini Bow.

The issue with those 1-2 weapons was that they were generally the optimal choice of weapon during enemy phase. Fates balanced them a bit so that it wasn't just plop someone in the middle of everything with a 1-2 weapon and call it a day. I guess you can live without using them since they aren't that broken in Fates, but could be useful at times for enemy phase chip or chip in general.

[Interdimensional Observer]

It varies heavily based on each game. Judging the ones I've played:

• FE3- 20 Wt means no doubling allowed for Javelins, so they're weak. Hand Axes are limited in Book 1, and vanish altogether in Book 2.
• FE4- Again, heavy. Negative AS being permissible doesn't make them as bad however. Magic Swords and Tomes are where the real 1-2 fun is at though.
• FE5- Can't use Javelins indoors b/c dismounting, Hand Axes are inaccurate, but the weight is a nonissue this time. Weak enemies make Javelins viable outdoors too.
• FE6- Weight and accuracy aren't a big deal. Con can mitigate most of the WT, accuracy is as bad as Steel variants of Lances and Axes, so if you tolerate Steel, you can tolerate these. The real issue for FE6 is high enemy quality making enemy-phasing, ideal for 1-2 weapons, more difficult.
• FE7- JAVELINS AND HAND AXES ARE MY WAIFUS! -No joke. Low enemy stats, perfectly usable stats on the 1-2 weapons themselves, and high enemy density. All this makes for a game where enemy-phasing through crowds with Javelins and Hand Axes is very very very, viable.
• FE8- Basically the same circumstances as FE7, but maybe the enemies are slightly stronger. 
• FE9- Three games in a row where Hands and Javelins are incredible.
• FE10- Make that four I'd say! And now Swords get into the mass-produced 1-2 range game!
• FE11- Stat-wise, the throwing weapons aren't bad. But enemy density has declined drastically, and on the harder difficulties, boy they have quality. The throwing weapons are fine, it's the environment they're in that has led to an indirect nerf.
• FE12- At last, the weapons themselves have been nerfed. They still have some utility, but perhaps on the weaker side on Maniac or Lunatic difficulties, which are very anti-enemy phasing. Bows outdo them on the player phase, because bow users aren't stuck with mediocre stats.
• FE13- Javelins and Hand Axes have garbo Mt, although better accuracy than FE12. Nonetheless, Awakening is crazy enemy phase without grinding to no end for a full team of Galeforce units. And adding in how BIG the player stats can get, the nonexistent Mt of these weapons don't matter, throwing weapons are so damn sexy I'd marry Gregor to a Tomahawk if I could. I get an anime nosebleed just thinking about it!
• FE14- Being banned from doubling for the weaker versions nerfs them into near-uselessness, and the stronger ones lose 1 range. Nonetheless, FE14 can be a game for some good 1-2 range enemy phasing, you just have to do it with Tomes/Scrolls, Daggers/Shuriken, magic weapons, or Siegfried and Rajinto.
• FE15- The expansion of Bow range to at least 1-3, upwards of 1-5, while Javelins remain 1-2, make the weapon obsolete for enemy phasing. Safe player phase chipping is all they're good for, and it's a niche that isn't very good at all.
• FE16- Well, Maddening inherits the insane enemy stats that makes enemy phasing a challenge in FE12, and the 1-3/5 Bow range of SoV is present on all difficulties. The result should be that throwing weapons in 3H are lacking.

 

TL;DR

FEs 7-10 + 13 are paradise for Hand Axes and Javelins. FEs 3 and 14-16 they're bad in. FEs 4-6 and 11 & 12 are varying places in-between.

[FailWood]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

FE13- Javelins and Hand Axes have garbo Mt, although better accuracy than FE12. Nonetheless, Awakening is crazy enemy phase without grinding to no end for a full team of Galeforce units. And adding in how BIG the player stats can get, the nonexistent Mt of these weapons don't matter, throwing weapons are so damn sexy I'd marry Gregor to a Tomahawk if I could. I get an anime nosebleed just thinking about it!

Awakening also has the Armsthrift skill, which saves weapon durability at a rate of the unit's Luck times 2.  It's the starting skill for the Mercenary class, which is a class not many units have access to.  Forging can help mitigate the weapon's poor stats a bit.

Edited August 15, 2021 by FailWood

[Parrhesia]

Javelins and handaxes were ludicrously overpowered for a good long time, as IO's timeline illustrates. Eventually IS realised that what was intended to be a side-arm for when a melee character is two tiles out was instead their all-purpose weapon, and started nerfing them aggressively... and of course in 3H for that purpose you can just hand everyone an iron bow.

So you aren't wrong, but it's just kind of hilarious to me given the time I've spent on this site that now the utility of javs/handaxen across the series - once the pinnacle of weapons in the games most frequently discussed - is now in question.

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

5 hours ago, Armchair General said:

I'm sitting here, thinking about random stuff while I'm playing 3H and I noticed that I've barely used my javelin and short spear. And it got me thinking about why these things stopped being useful to me.

Plus, my team can reliably survive melee, so there's hardly any reason to chuck a spear or two unless I'm at a chokepoint.

And it's not just in 3H, either; considering that I barely used Arthur's hand axe or any of the special weapons aside from the Spirit Katana. Although with Fates, this is probably a pitfall or something.

it depends.

in my opinion, if we're talking about the overall utility of javelins and other similar weapons, you need to consider the class that uses them, and the situation you're facing. there's always multiple ways to approach combat based on the enemy unit type, quantity, terrain type and player preferences.

going by examples: there's people who prefer to use throwing weapons as their main source of damage just to have the advantage over other melees.

then there's those who use ranged weapons mostly as a counter for mages/archers/whatever during enemy phase.

then again, there's others who prefer to move around with ranged weapons just to be able to reach anything in their range.

now, all of those tactics work fine in theory, however there's always other mechanics to consider as well, such as weapon usage, class accessibility to ranged weapons, and rank.

if you're playing a game like Echoes, weapon usage is pretty much not an issue. if you're playing other more "traditional" titles, that's already a different story because uses are tied to money, and not every title has the exact same ways for farming gold. some are more risky than others depending on the game, so that requires planning from the player since he'll have to decide if they're actually worth "spamming" or not.

a weak unit will probably benefit more by doing ranged chip damage, rather than getting close and risking to get killed. otherwise, it would probably be better to get close and kill an enemy unit in one or two hits with a stronger melee weapon instead.

5 hours ago, Armchair General said:

At this point, I'm on the verge of buying silver weapons out of boredom and I'm already using the steel ones.

this is yet again another factor to consider: some people prefer basic ranged weapons over bronze/iron/whatever low grade weapons due to similar stats, and they can always get close to use a stronger weapon in order to kill an enemy.

others prefer to run around with both low/high grade melee weapons in their inventory in order to deal with common and stronger enemies while saving uses(and money), and keep ranged weapons just for situations previously mentioned above.

 

in any case, long story short: it's situational.

[Armchair General]

46 minutes ago, 𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐞𝐢𝐫 said:

this is yet again another factor to consider: some people prefer basic ranged weapons over bronze/iron/whatever low grade weapons due to similar stats, and they can always get close to use a stronger weapon in order to kill an enemy.

In my case, I keep a weaker one around for scoring another hit. Otherwise, it's steel or silver, plus the holy relic that I hardly use.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, FailWood said:

Awakening also has the Armsthrift skill, which saves weapon durability at a rate of the unit's Luck times 2.  It's the starting skill for the Mercenary class, which is a class not many units have access to.  Forging can help mitigate the weapon's poor stats a bit.

True. And if willing to resort to Infinite Regalia DLC farming or renown rewards, Armsthrift!Ragnell, Gradivus, and Helswath enter the picture.

I also forgot to mention Dual Attacks. That's another of fact of Awakening that indirectly buffs throwing weapons -if your back units have nice stats and support ranks with your lead units. A Hand Axe followed frequently by a Silver Lance strike adds a good bit more damage independent of the Hand Axe's stats, increasing the likelihood of ORKOing.

[ANDREW BENINTENDO]

15 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

• FE7- JAVELINS AND HAND AXES ARE MY WAIFUS! -No joke. Low enemy stats, perfectly usable stats on the 1-2 weapons themselves, and high enemy density. All this makes for a game where enemy-phasing through crowds with Javelins and Hand Axes is very very very, viable.

Truth. Because I started out with that one, and because Javs/Hand Axes were as useful as they were there, I at least tend to (at times overly) rely on and overrate 1+2 ranged weapons. I can't be alone here.

[Shadow Mir]

How good javelins and the like are depends heavily on the game.

• Mystery made javelins have 20 weight (note that aside from HP, stats cap at 20), and unlike would be the case in later games, weapon weight was subtracted directly from your speed; this has nothing to do with the topic, but this resulted in swords being dominant while axes were screwed over (Thracia was the first game to address this by introducing the constitution stat, which then carried over to the GBA games [however, magic was still subjected to speed - weapon weight in Thracia]). This means that javelins could not double ever. Hand Axes were better off, but Book 2 is one of the games where you don't get any axe users at all.
• Genealogy made them heavy again, though due to negative AS being a thing, it wasn't as bad.
• Binding Blade alleviated weight concerns (at least unless you were a pegasus knight, in which case pretty much anything heavier than a silver lance would flush your AS down the toilet), but the low accuracy of javelins and hand axes made it such that they were only useful for chip damage.
• They were dominant in Blazing Blade because enemies were pathetic, and thus easy to kill (it didn't help their case that enemies often weighed themselves down with their weapons). 
• The situation was the same in Sacred Stones, for the most part.
• Path of Radiance made them even better with the addition of forging, which basically allowed you to create a forged one with none of the downsides they'd normally have.
• Radiant Dawn is much the same, except now swords get buyable 1-2 range (however, they're still worse off because wind edges cannot be forged).
• They weren't bad per se in Shadow Dragon, but circumstances made them less useful compared to the prior games.
• New Mystery nerfed them by making them much weaker, and the higher-grade throwing weapons are enemy-only. As a result, bows are better for player phase chipping.
• Awakening made them even weaker, with the higher-end throwing weapons being slightly weaker than steel weapons. This being said, some of the regalia Awakening brought in from prior games are throwing weapons, and it also has the Amatsu, another ranged sword.
• Fates nerfed them again, except this time it's by making them unable to follow-up, in addition to making it easier for enemies to follow-up against units equipped with one (also, they cannot crit or activate skills). The stronger ones are also locked to 2 range. Due to these, you'll see enemies using 1-2 weapons that DON'T have these drawbacks occasionally (of course, they're enemy only).
• Shadows of Valentia has the Gradivus, which is pretty good... but comes late in the game. The other throwing weapons, not so much, especially in a game where bows have 1-5 range, and mages often have 3 range.
• Three Houses is the lowest point for throwing weapons as a whole. Not only are they weak again (also, disregarding SoV, 3H is the first game to bring back weight since it was dropped in New Mystery - and they're all rather heavy), but archers (as well as snipers and bow knights) still have extra range, in addition to you seeing enemy archers as early as chapter 2. Making matters worse, the higher-end throwing weapons require rarer ores to repair or upgrade. The result? Javelins and hand axes, as well as their upgrades, are pretty much useless. To put things into perspective, a Javelin+ has 8 weight, 3 might, and 80 hit. An Iron Bow+ has 7 might, 5 weight, and 95 hit. Even if the Javelin user has Lancefaire and a level 5 Lance Prowess, the Javelin only ends up doing 1 more damage than the Iron Bow, and has the same hit rate as the bow without prowess (and that's assuming that whatever you're attacking isn't a flier, in which case it's not even a contest). About the only thing javelins and hand axes have going for them is they can counter at melee range... which bows can also do with Close Counter (also, if your lance/axe wielder was about to get attacked directly, you'd want them to use a stronger and/or lighter lance/axe).

Edited August 24, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[DomesticHausCat]

Agreed with all points so far. 

In FE4 I will add that for mounted units you may switch weapons after attacking via super Canto. This allows units like Finn and Lex to throw a hand axe/javelin, then equip a decent melee weapon afterwards. Sure the same could be done with trading, but there's more flexibility to be had with equipping after attacking.

[defensedefumer]

Agree with the above analysis.

Generally in Fates and Three Houses, I use javelins more for chipping away at health rather than to outright defeat an opponent.