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Three Houses challenge runs


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This thread is to talk about Three Houses challenge runs, or any other variant ways of playing the game.

It's no secret by now that I love this game and I enjoy seeing what you can get away with in it. I've done several challenge runs myself. I do them all on Maddening NG with no reward items like Chalice of Beginnings because I enjoy the higher difficulty, but naturally there are some run ideas which might work better (and still be tough!) on lower difficulties. I also always try to do them without grinding, and typically choose challenges I anticipate will not require it. Anyway, here are the variant playthroughs I've done so far:

1. Almost no monastery: This wasn't really a formal challenge run, just trying out a concept of what the game is like if I reduce time-consuming activities to a minimum. I banned fishing, meals, choir, comment box, tea time, gifts/lost items, faculty training (with an exception to reach D armour/riding/flying to unlock classes), sauna, quests (except ones I deemed very important, i.e. shops/saint statue/dancer), repeat arenas (i.e. I could do it once per chapter, if forced to explore), non-quest aux battles, and manual instruction.

This made for a very streamlined playthrough; lots of seminars, and nothing that could act as a big timesink, meaning almost all time was spent in battles (or watching story/supports). It was harder, of course, but not by as much as I was expecting, and I sometimes trot out this playthrough when people complain about how much the monastery wastes your time. It only does if you choose to have it do so!

2. Mages only: I did this one on Crimson Flower due to their three natural mages and (relatively) most mage-like lord. I defined a "mage" as someone in a class that uses magic (except War Monk/Cleric, which feels clearly like a physical class to me) OR as someone in a "non-mage" class who attacks exclusively with magic damage, e.g. a Paladin Hubert who does nothing but use Frozen Lance. I let my mages use physical attacks but did not allow myself to invest/build for them, e.g. no Death Blow or strength-boosting of any sort, so even for people like Byleth and Edelgard magic was the dominant part of their game. This was hardly even a challenge; it was a bit of an eye-opener just how crazy dominant range strats are in this game. The only things I remember giving me much pause are pegasus knights (who I had to either reserve Luna for or hit them with incidental Steel Bows from my mages with actual str stats). Monsters with magic-immune barriers were also annoying but they're few in number and gambits deal with them fine.

3. Swords only. I did this one on Crimson Flower as well. The rule for this one was that I couldn't use offensive magic or any weapon that wasn't a sword (although I still let myself use gambits and support magic). Did you know that the best sword-using class is Wyvern Lord? Because this playthrough proved that to me without a shadow of a doubt. Probably my favourite thing about this challenge was the synergy between Wyvern Lords and Assassins; by using Canto of the former you can very easily govern how many enemies can notice and hit the latter, which is very neat for abusing who enemies target. I also used a few mages with Levin Swords and magic sword combat arts for their offence, either Valkyrie->Mortal Savant or Dark Flier for mobility; worked pretty well. I also gained appreciation for Windsweep. Meanwhile I somehow lost appreciation for Swordmaster/Hero, not even this run could make them feel useful compared to other class options.

This was harder than Mages Only because of the lacking ranged options; the early maps were tricky when I could only attack at range 1, but Sword of the Creator and Levin Sword were certainly helpful once I got them. Also, amusingly for a weapon type which on paper is supposed to be accurate, this is the only playthrough where I ever felt like accuracy was a significant concern, mostly against falcon knights who have well over 100 avoid against swords.

4. My current run is a "low level game" or "use everyone" run that I've done for a couple other Fire Emblems: basically, I have to recruit everyone (I set myself a recruitment schedule of two per month starting in Chapter 4), keep everyone alive, train everyone equally, and level everyone equally (this is enforced by the fact that I have to bring all my lowest-levelled units into the current battle), with rules put in place to attempt to close any loopholes (e.g. no, I can't just powerlevel Byleth). It's not a true low level game the way the term applies to other RPGs because I'm doing paralogues and not taking effort to mimimize exp gains in battles, but it certainly leaves me with very underpowered units, which is interesting. I'm doing this on Azure Moon (largest recruitment list!), and just got past Reunion at Dawn - fortunately I was able to get people into Advance classes by the timeskip, but only barely (everyone was Level 20-21 going into Chapter 12).

I've written a detailed summary of the run so far here, if anyone is curious: https://elfgamingblog.wordpress.com/2021/08/21/fe3h-low-level-run/

My wife has done a few challenge runs as well so I get to watch those, specifically All Women (CF), All Men (AM), Edelgard+Hubert only, and a playthrough where everyone had to use classes associated with their banes + could not use things associated with their boons (so Edelgard was a Bow Knight, Hubert as a Bishop with no dark magic or Frozen Lance, Lysithea as a Wyvern, etc.).

And I feel obliged to make a shout-out to @lenticular's no-items run https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/94810-beating-three-houses-with-almost-no-items/ which remains one of my favourite Fire Emblem challenges to ever read about.


Does anybody else have any challenge runs or other neat playthrough ideas to share?

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I have a couple to throw in if that is okay. Feel free to tweak it to make it more interesting if you want

No master classes: Basically it is as it implies. No master classes allowed. So this creates a situation where you’re only two options for a flier are either pegasus knight or wyvern rider. This also gives Paladins the edge they needed for being the best lance user and best class for movement. Also this would make Warriors or Swordmasters or Assassins more viable. Snipers are still good but will lack the movement of Bow Knights. Unique classes are still allowed since we should place a special restriction on Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude. That can be a separate challenge if you want. Also while optional you can run with DLC.

 

No master classes and DLC: Same as above except no DLC classes.

 

Budding talent class only run: You must use units that has their budding talent. And their budding talent with it. I.E: Felix as a Mortal Savant, Warlock, Dark Knight. Ferdinand as a Fortress Knight or Great Knight. This allows you try something different than what you would normally do with said unit. That said it might not change for you all too much. Like Bernadetta is normally a a Paladin or Bow Knight for your run anyways. But you might have not considered Ignatz to be a Dark Knight or Mercedes as a Sniper or Edelgard as a Mortal Savant and so forth.

 

Gauntlet Only run: basically you’re only allowed to use gauntlets. You see a problem? Punch the shit out of them 😂

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1 hour ago, Barren said:

No master classes: Basically it is as it implies. No master classes allowed. So this creates a situation where you’re only two options for a flier are either pegasus knight or wyvern rider. This also gives Paladins the edge they needed for being the best lance user and best class for movement. Also this would make Warriors or Swordmasters or Assassins more viable. Snipers are still good but will lack the movement of Bow Knights. Unique classes are still allowed since we should place a special restriction on Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude. That can be a separate challenge if you want. Also while optional you can run with DLC.

This... doesn't sound too rough. Dark Flier is probably the best offensive magic class, and Valkyrie is basically "Dark Knight Junior" for female mages. Assassin and Grappler still have great infantry movement, Bishop is the best support class, Snipers are Hunter's Volley machines, Warlock/Dark Bishop is the ceiling for male mages, Wyvern Riders are just "Wyvern Lord Junior", Paladins are Lancefaire-R-us, and Fortress Knight is the best defense-tanking class. We're only really missing out on high attack range for male mages (Dark Knight), Crit city (War Master), and absurd bow ranges (Bow Knight). Granted, I'm sure it becomes trickier without the DLC, but not by a whole lot.

1 hour ago, Barren said:

Budding talent class only run: You must use units that has their budding talent. And their budding talent with it. I.E: Felix as a Mortal Savant, Warlock, Dark Knight. Ferdinand as a Fortress Knight or Great Knight. This allows you try something different than what you would normally do with said unit. That said it might not change for you all too much. Like Bernadetta is normally a a Paladin or Bow Knight for your run anyways. But you might have not considered Ignatz to be a Dark Knight or Mercedes as a Sniper or Edelgard as a Mortal Savant and so forth.

 

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

and a playthrough where everyone had to use classes associated with their banes + could not use things associated with their boons (so Edelgard was a Bow Knight, Hubert as a Bishop with no dark magic or Frozen Lance, Lysithea as a Wyvern, etc.).

I like the notion of something that builds off a unit's proficiencies list, like either of these. Hm... what about a boon/bane playthrough, where you have to train a unit in a boon area (or budding talent), and a bane area? So Annette could go Fortress Knight (Axe boon, Armor bane), while Dimitri might go Mortal Savant (Sword boon, Reason bane). And if a unit doesn't have any banes, then they must train in neutral areas instead (Sniper Ingrid, anyone?).

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I've done a couple, both on Maddening & No NG+. #1 was Azure Moon with No Dinning Hall, Seminar Training only run.

#2 was Crimson Flower No Forge or Battalion run.  On one hand, you can't spam your Relics, but on the other, you can sell all your Ores for even more $$$.

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

1. Almost no monastery: This wasn't really a formal challenge run, just trying out a concept of what the game is like if I reduce time-consuming activities to a minimum. I banned fishing, meals, choir, comment box, tea time, gifts/lost items, faculty training (with an exception to reach D armour/riding/flying to unlock classes), sauna, quests (except ones I deemed very important, i.e. shops/saint statue/dancer), repeat arenas (i.e. I could do it once per chapter, if forced to explore), non-quest aux battles, and manual instruction.

This made for a very streamlined playthrough; lots of seminars, and nothing that could act as a big timesink, meaning almost all time was spent in battles (or watching story/supports). It was harder, of course, but not by as much as I was expecting, and I sometimes trot out this playthrough when people complain about how much the monastery wastes your time. It only does if you choose to have it do so!

Sounds like it may be a bit rough late-game.  Also, I assume that means you cannot actively recruit people, given little to no Monastery?

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

2. Mages only: I did this one on Crimson Flower due to their three natural mages and (relatively) most mage-like lord. I defined a "mage" as someone in a class that uses magic (except War Monk/Cleric, which feels clearly like a physical class to me) OR as someone in a "non-mage" class who attacks exclusively with magic damage, e.g. a Paladin Hubert who does nothing but use Frozen Lance. I let my mages use physical attacks but did not allow myself to invest/build for them, e.g. no Death Blow or strength-boosting of any sort, so even for people like Byleth and Edelgard magic was the dominant part of their game. This was hardly even a challenge; it was a bit of an eye-opener just how crazy dominant range strats are in this game. The only things I remember giving me much pause are pegasus knights (who I had to either reserve Luna for or hit them with incidental Steel Bows from my mages with actual str stats). Monsters with magic-immune barriers were also annoying but they're few in number and gambits deal with them fine.

3. Swords only. I did this one on Crimson Flower as well. The rule for this one was that I couldn't use offensive magic or any weapon that wasn't a sword (although I still let myself use gambits and support magic). Did you know that the best sword-using class is Wyvern Lord? Because this playthrough proved that to me without a shadow of a doubt. Probably my favourite thing about this challenge was the synergy between Wyvern Lords and Assassins; by using Canto of the former you can very easily govern how many enemies can notice and hit the latter, which is very neat for abusing who enemies target. I also used a few mages with Levin Swords and magic sword combat arts for their offence, either Valkyrie->Mortal Savant or Dark Flier for mobility; worked pretty well. I also gained appreciation for Windsweep. Meanwhile I somehow lost appreciation for Swordmaster/Hero, not even this run could make them feel useful compared to other class options.

This was harder than Mages Only because of the lacking ranged options; the early maps were tricky when I could only attack at range 1, but Sword of the Creator and Levin Sword were certainly helpful once I got them. Also, amusingly for a weapon type which on paper is supposed to be accurate, this is the only playthrough where I ever felt like accuracy was a significant concern, mostly against falcon knights who have well over 100 avoid against swords.

Not... horrible, I guess.  There are worse challenges.

Also, the main take-away I got from this:  Enemy Pegasi too strong, plz nerf!?

2 hours ago, Barren said:

No master classes: Basically it is as it implies. No master classes allowed. So this creates a situation where you’re only two options for a flier are either pegasus knight or wyvern rider. This also gives Paladins the edge they needed for being the best lance user and best class for movement. Also this would make Warriors or Swordmasters or Assassins more viable. Snipers are still good but will lack the movement of Bow Knights. Unique classes are still allowed since we should place a special restriction on Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude. That can be a separate challenge if you want. Also while optional you can run with DLC.

Honestly very easy.  Um, no offense.  War Master, W. Lord, and sometimes Dark or Bow Knight are the only Masters that I find myself using.

2 hours ago, Barren said:

No master classes and DLC: Same as above except no DLC classes.

The only difference is loss of Valkyrie, at least for me.

2 hours ago, Barren said:

Budding talent class only run: You must use units that has their budding talent. And their budding talent with it. I.E: Felix as a Mortal Savant, Warlock, Dark Knight. Ferdinand as a Fortress Knight or Great Knight. This allows you try something different than what you would normally do with said unit. That said it might not change for you all too much. Like Bernadetta is normally a a Paladin or Bow Knight for your run anyways. But you might have not considered Ignatz to be a Dark Knight or Mercedes as a Sniper or Edelgard as a Mortal Savant and so forth.

Sounds like quite a bit of fun, really.  Just glancing over the BT units, Fist-Fighting Constance and  Ninjutsu Edelgard sound ridiculous.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I like the notion of something that builds off a unit's proficiencies list, like either of these. Hm... what about a boon/bane playthrough, where you have to train a unit in a boon area (or budding talent), and a bane area? So Annette could go Fortress Knight (Axe boon, Armor bane), while Dimitri might go Mortal Savant (Sword boon, Reason bane). And if a unit doesn't have any banes, then they must train in neutral areas instead (Sniper Ingrid, anyone?).

Also sounds like fun.  

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7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

1. Almost no monastery: This wasn't really a formal challenge run, just trying out a concept of what the game is like if I reduce time-consuming activities to a minimum. I banned fishing, meals, choir, comment box, tea time, gifts/lost items, faculty training (with an exception to reach D armour/riding/flying to unlock classes), sauna, quests (except ones I deemed very important, i.e. shops/saint statue/dancer), repeat arenas (i.e. I could do it once per chapter, if forced to explore), non-quest aux battles, and manual instruction.

This made for a very streamlined playthrough; lots of seminars, and nothing that could act as a big timesink, meaning almost all time was spent in battles (or watching story/supports). It was harder, of course, but not by as much as I was expecting, and I sometimes trot out this playthrough when people complain about how much the monastery wastes your time. It only does if you choose to have it do so!

I've done a similar run which was pretty much as close to no-monastery as I could get, albeit I only did it on hard (hard, classic, no NG+, no DLC, no online). I barred explore except when it was forced, and even then did the absolute bare minimum that was required before ending the exploration session early. I also barred seminars. I allowed paralogues and setting of study goals, but otherwise it was all just rest and auto-instruct (or, more usually, skipping straight to the end of the month). Like you, I didn't find it that much harder than a regular run. No dancer was a bit of a drag but not a big deal. The only saint statue bonus that I felt the absense of was the one for class xp; the other bonuses weren't a big deal. Missing the shop quests also wasn't too bad. The battalion guild is unlocked by a mandatory quest that can't be skipped; the blacksmith unlocks in part 2 anyway and isn't that important in part 1; the biggest loss was being limited on how many master seals I could get.

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

4. My current run is a "low level game" or "use everyone" run that I've done for a couple other Fire Emblems: basically, I have to recruit everyone (I set myself a recruitment schedule of two per month starting in Chapter 4), keep everyone alive, train everyone equally, and level everyone equally (this is enforced by the fact that I have to bring all my lowest-levelled units into the current battle), with rules put in place to attempt to close any loopholes (e.g. no, I can't just powerlevel Byleth). It's not a true low level game the way the term applies to other RPGs because I'm doing paralogues and not taking effort to mimimize exp gains in battles, but it certainly leaves me with very underpowered units, which is interesting. I'm doing this on Azure Moon (largest recruitment list!), and just got past Reunion at Dawn - fortunately I was able to get people into Advance classes by the timeskip, but only barely (everyone was Level 20-21 going into Chapter 12).

That sounds very fun and I am tempted to try something similar for myself at some point. I'd probably just use NG+ to recruit everyone, though, because getting all the skill requirements on Byleth doesn't sound like the sort of thing that I'd enjoy. I always find these sorts of run fascinating, though. They seem like they shouldn't be viable at all, except that because of the way that exp scaling works, you end up falling into an equilibrium that isn't all that much lower than where you'd normally be.

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

My wife has done a few challenge runs as well so I get to watch those, specifically All Women (CF), All Men (AM), Edelgard+Hubert only, and a playthrough where everyone had to use classes associated with their banes + could not use things associated with their boons (so Edelgard was a Bow Knight, Hubert as a Bishop with no dark magic or Frozen Lance, Lysithea as a Wyvern, etc.).

I've done "bad builds only" before, though not as rigorously enforced as "all banes". I don't remember much of that run, just that Flayn as a Fortress Knight was very fun to use, Caspar as a Bishop was not, and Linhardt as an Archer looked like a merry man thanks to his green colour scheme.

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And I feel obliged to make a shout-out to @lenticular's no-items run https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/94810-beating-three-houses-with-almost-no-items/ which remains one of my favourite Fire Emblem challenges to ever read about.

Thank you!

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Does anybody else have any challenge runs or other neat playthrough ideas to share?

A few ideas that are in my head at the moment. May or may not be terrible.

Merchant bros: Use Ignatz and Raphael only (except the prologue, obviously). This is probably going to be the next run I try. I don't think there is any other pair of characters who a. have a strong storyline connection and b. have such a collectively weak reputation. Possibly Annette + Gilbert or Hanneman + Manuela, but they both have availability issues that would make a duo run far less satisfying.

Chess pieces team: Your team is your houseleader and Byleth in their unique classes (king and queen), two fortress knights (rooks), two paladins (knights), two bishops (guess), and eight commoners (pawns). No other restrictions.

Low manpower: You are not allowed to use the replenish option at the battalion guild. Once a battalion is fully depleted and retreats from battle, it's gone forever. This is probably not all that difficult ("no battalions" would obviously be harder but is also probably very doable) but I figure it might be interesting to turn battalions inot a limited resource that has to be carefully managed.

The boar prince: play as Blue Lions. At the start of every player phase, you must immediately move Dimitri to attack the enemy that is closest to him. If nobody is in range, instead move him his full movement speed towards the closest enemy. You control everyone else who has to keep up with him to keep him alive. Battalion Vantage/Battalion Wrath are banned since they would make this too easy.

Beautiful and unique snowflakes: All aspects of all builds must be unique. Nobody may duplicate another unit's class, abilities, combat arts, or off-hand item. Class duplication is obviously allowed early on when there aren't enough classes to go around, but is strictly prohibited by endgame. For abilities, each ability can be used on only one unit. So, only one unit with Death Blow, only one with Hit +20, only one with Magic +2, etc. Optionally, it might be more fun to allow everyone to equip their prowess skill of choice, since those are fairly integral to game balance, but leave all other skills unique. Keeping combat arts and off-hand items unique shouldn't be too much of a challenge, I wouldn't think. Although combat arts might be a bit rough in the early game. Unique weapons might also be viable, though I'm not sure how much that would restrict available weapon swaps. The goal here is to discourage over-reliance on dominant strategies and force usage of some more niche options.

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Thanks for some of the feedback. I guess my no master class run doesn’t sound too appealing. Which is understandable. I just thought since a lot of people (myself included) use Falcon Knights and Wyvern Lords now being forced to use either a flier with no avoid bonus but a weapon faire or a flier with no weapon faire, one less move but has avoid +10. I got the idea from cindered shadows and thought maybe we can sort of try something similar there. But I can understand from everyone’s perspective if that doesn’t sound too interesting.

At least my budding talent run idea looks to have gotten more of a positive reaction. I think there is quite a bit to explore about some character’s budding talent and see how far someone can take it.

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15 hours ago, Barren said:

Budding talent class only run: You must use units that has their budding talent. And their budding talent with it. I.E: Felix as a Mortal Savant, Warlock, Dark Knight. Ferdinand as a Fortress Knight or Great Knight. This allows you try something different than what you would normally do with said unit. That said it might not change for you all too much. Like Bernadetta is normally a a Paladin or Bow Knight for your run anyways. But you might have not considered Ignatz to be a Dark Knight or Mercedes as a Sniper or Edelgard as a Mortal Savant and so forth.

 

Gauntlet Only run: basically you’re only allowed to use gauntlets. You see a problem? Punch the shit out of them 😂

Gauntlet only would present some of the same problems as sword only in that the lack of range (even moreso!) would hurt. I think it'd probably be easier overall though, just because gauntlets have so much more power than swords (and there are no enemies with fistbreaker). Should be fun regardless! Would definitely want to do that one with DLC allowed so I could use War Cleric.

Budding talent run is pretty neat, though definitely more of a theme playthrough than a challenge because the builds you can make are certainly varied and legitimate. Just consider a CF team with War Monk/Cleric Byleth, Mortal Savant/Dark Knight Edelgard, Paladin Hubert, Gremory Dorothea, Bow Knight Bernadetta, Great Knight Ferdinand, and Wyvern Jeritza, plus whatever recruits you might fancy (Dark Knight Sylvain, Frozen Lance Marianne, etc.). It's not an optimum team but it is a very solid one.

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I like the notion of something that builds off a unit's proficiencies list, like either of these. Hm... what about a boon/bane playthrough, where you have to train a unit in a boon area (or budding talent), and a bane area? So Annette could go Fortress Knight (Axe boon, Armor bane), while Dimitri might go Mortal Savant (Sword boon, Reason bane). And if a unit doesn't have any banes, then they must train in neutral areas instead (Sniper Ingrid, anyone?).

Yeah that'd be neat! And a bit more Maddening-friendly than forcing banes.

12 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

Sounds like [no-monastery run] may be a bit rough late-game.  Also, I assume that means you cannot actively recruit people, given little to no Monastery?

Yeah, you're basically stuck with your in-house team plus staff members, Ashen Wolves (if available), and Sylvain if playing as FByleth on non-Lions. That's enough to assemble a perfectly competent team on any route, but it does lack the variety. Obviously, it was a proof of concept, and I would suggest that if recruitment is important to you, that you relax the restrictions in some way such that it becomes easier. The lategame wasn't as rough as you might think (at least my version, banning seminars as lenticular did would certainly take a bite out of your skill gains).

I think for me, the hardest fight was actually Chapter 3, honestly? I hadn't explored in chapter 3 so a few characters had failed to meet some skill training benchmarks I'm used to AND I hadn't unlocked the battalion guild yet (the game forces you to do it in the forced explore in chapter 4).

12 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

Also, the main take-away I got from this:  Enemy Pegasi too strong, plz nerf!?

Haha having just got through AM Chapter 14 on my current run I am feeling that yet again! It's staggering how powerful they are compared to other enemies - the falcon knights on that map not only have the highest mobility, AS, and evade of any enemies by a lot (as you might expect), but they also have well above average atk (only axe users and some paladins have more, and not by much), and surprisingly good physical bulk (certainly better than bow- or sword-users in addition to mages). I feel like they were purposefully made strong to make archers feel more valuable... if so, mission accomplished. (Snipers are wonderfully effective against them and really hold them in check.)

11 hours ago, lenticular said:

That sounds very fun and I am tempted to try something similar for myself at some point. I'd probably just use NG+ to recruit everyone, though, because getting all the skill requirements on Byleth doesn't sound like the sort of thing that I'd enjoy. I always find these sorts of run fascinating, though. They seem like they shouldn't be viable at all, except that because of the way that exp scaling works, you end up falling into an equilibrium that isn't all that much lower than where you'd normally be.

Yeah I've done similar runs for Path of Radiance and Binding Blade and they are a lot of fun. NG+ing in recruitment is very fair, I definitely had to weave a delicate balance for getting everyone I needed on schedule while still getting my prof rank up and I definitely understand not finding that enjoyable. I will note that as a warning for this run, it really increases the amount of pre-battle micromanagement to very high levels, since I'm constantly reconfiguring all my battalions and inventory, while also trying to mentally track things like "oh wait, did someone pick up a new skill in a previous battle I now have to set?". One of my pet peeves of 3H is that it doesn't automatically give you a prompt when learning a sixth skill to boot out one of your old ones (the way Awakening and Fates did).

11 hours ago, lenticular said:

The boar prince: play as Blue Lions. At the start of every player phase, you must immediately move Dimitri to attack the enemy that is closest to him. If nobody is in range, instead move him his full movement speed towards the closest enemy. You control everyone else who has to keep up with him to keep him alive. Battalion Vantage/Battalion Wrath are banned since they would make this too easy.

Beautiful and unique snowflakes: All aspects of all builds must be unique. Nobody may duplicate another unit's class, abilities, combat arts, or off-hand item. Class duplication is obviously allowed early on when there aren't enough classes to go around, but is strictly prohibited by endgame. For abilities, each ability can be used on only one unit. So, only one unit with Death Blow, only one with Hit +20, only one with Magic +2, etc. Optionally, it might be more fun to allow everyone to equip their prowess skill of choice, since those are fairly integral to game balance, but leave all other skills unique. Keeping combat arts and off-hand items unique shouldn't be too much of a challenge, I wouldn't think. Although combat arts might be a bit rough in the early game. Unique weapons might also be viable, though I'm not sure how much that would restrict available weapon swaps. The goal here is to discourage over-reliance on dominant strategies and force usage of some more niche options.

Boar prince is definitely one you can have fun with. Making him a paladin instead of a lord probably makes the game harder! Or make him a wyvern for the true lunatic mode. You can also decide whether to allow options like Reposition and Rescue on him to get him out of trouble,  or he has threatened to hang Flayn from the gates of Enbarr if she ever tries.

Snowflakes run sounds pretty cool. I would personally allow Prowess, since they really feel more equivalent to the weapon ranks of old games (and a bit of an ability slot tax, but oh well) but the limit on everything else sounds good.

 

Another run I thought of recently, which is less of a challenge and more a bit fun/unpredictable, is what I'll call a "actually be a good teacher" run, where if a student says "hey, I want to learn how to do X", then you're damn well gonna do your best to help them do X! They will learn what they want, not what you want. Basically, every time a student asks for you to change their goals, you must accept their proposal, and from there do your best to support them in that build (you can change their goals to round it out, e.g. by adding some lance training to get them to bow knight, or authority etc., but not change their general proposed class line)... at least unless/until they change their mind and decide they want to try another build. Characters who will never ask you to change their goals should be used minimally, of course, and I'd also suggest some sort of support-focused build for Byleth, though I'm not sure what.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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13 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Another run I thought of recently, which is less of a challenge and more a bit fun/unpredictable, is what I'll call a "actually be a good teacher" run, where if a student says "hey, I want to learn how to do X", then you're damn well gonna do your best to help them do X! They will learn what they want, not what you want. Basically, every time a student asks for you to change their goals, you must accept their proposal, and from there do your best to support them in that build (you can change their goals to round it out, e.g. by adding some lance training to get them to bow knight, or authority etc., but not change their general proposed class line)... at least unless/until they change their mind and decide they want to try another build. Characters who will never ask you to change their goals should be used minimally, of course, and I'd also suggest some sort of support-focused build for Byleth, though I'm not sure what.

I've thought of something like this - basically, never changing their Goals unless they ask for it. Any other ranks you'd want to boost will have to be raised via the Instruct function. I can just imagine students shooting themselves in the foot, by changing their goals inopportunely.

5 hours ago, Barren said:

Thanks for some of the feedback. I guess my no master class run doesn’t sound too appealing. Which is understandable. I just thought since a lot of people (myself included) use Falcon Knights and Wyvern Lords now being forced to use either a flier with no avoid bonus but a weapon faire or a flier with no weapon faire, one less move but has avoid +10. I got the idea from cindered shadows and thought maybe we can sort of try something similar there. But I can understand from everyone’s perspective if that doesn’t sound too interesting.

I don't think it's a strictly bad idea, just a fairly gentle one. If the challenge were instead "no Master, DLC, or Advanced classes", then I think that would take some serious thought. Try to make everyone work in their Intermediate tier!

Anyway, here's another idea: D-Rank Desperation. The idea here is, once a unit hits C-rank in any weapon or magic type, they can no longer use it in battle. So, they'll have to take advantage of the weapons and spells they have at E and D-Ranks. In this case, having a bane is actually a benefit, since you get to use that particular tool for longer. Units can rise above C-rank in anything (say, for class certification), they just can't use that weapon type anymore. An even more restrictive version is Excruciating E-ranks, but that form means basically all magic is off the table.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Haha having just got through AM Chapter 14 on my current run I am feeling that yet again! It's staggering how powerful they are compared to other enemies - the falcon knights on that map not only have the highest mobility, AS, and evade of any enemies by a lot (as you might expect), but they also have well above average atk (only axe users and some paladins have more, and not by much), and surprisingly good physical bulk (certainly better than bow- or sword-users in addition to mages). I feel like they were purposefully made strong to make archers feel more valuable... if so, mission accomplished. (Snipers are wonderfully effective against them and really hold them in check.)

Yeesh...  That reminds me, I always feel that enemy pegasus knights in this game seem to be stronger - and way more aggravating -  relative to other enemy units. A far cry from the GBA games where they were pretty much fodder, to be certain.

This begs the question, do pegasi and wyverns ever appear on a map at the same time?

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6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, you're basically stuck with your in-house team plus staff members, Ashen Wolves (if available), and Sylvain if playing as FByleth on non-Lions. That's enough to assemble a perfectly competent team on any route, but it does lack the variety. Obviously, it was a proof of concept, and I would suggest that if recruitment is important to you, that you relax the restrictions in some way such that it becomes easier. The lategame wasn't as rough as you might think (at least my version, banning seminars as lenticular did would certainly take a bite out of your skill gains).

I think for me, the hardest fight was actually Chapter 3, honestly? I hadn't explored in chapter 3 so a few characters had failed to meet some skill training benchmarks I'm used to AND I hadn't unlocked the battalion guild yet (the game forces you to do it in the forced explore in chapter 4).

Even with no seminars and no saint statues, my units were still at about A+ by the end of the game in their primary weapon on average, and some people had hit S rank. Now, this was only on Hard and weapon skill gain is slower on Maddening, so maybe it would be a bit of a problem there, but I doubt it. It would definitely be harder to do elaborate or high-effort builds, but I can't imagine any problem at all picking up solid but simple builds. The early game was the hardest part for me as well (although still pretty simple since I was on Hard). I definitely noticed being that much slower than usual to pick up Physic, especially (even more so since I was doing AM and Mercedes weirdly starts with lower Faith skill than Linhardt or Marianne).

One thing that I meant to say but forgot is that if you are resting almost every week, then the Sword of the Creator is incredibly good. It was more or less fully recharging between every battle, so I just used it as if it had infinite durability, which was a lot of fun. And also a lesson to me on just how much more I should use it and all the other relics, given how much spare umbral steel (and money) I wind up with at the end of most games.

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Boar prince is definitely one you can have fun with. Making him a paladin instead of a lord probably makes the game harder! Or make him a wyvern for the true lunatic mode. You can also decide whether to allow options like Reposition and Rescue on him to get him out of trouble,  or he has threatened to hang Flayn from the gates of Enbarr if she ever tries.

The only run where the easiest way to do it is to make Dimitri a Fortress Knight or a Bishop.

 

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah I've done similar runs for Path of Radiance and Binding Blade and they are a lot of fun. NG+ing in recruitment is very fair, I definitely had to weave a delicate balance for getting everyone I needed on schedule while still getting my prof rank up and I definitely understand not finding that enjoyable. I will note that as a warning for this run, it really increases the amount of pre-battle micromanagement to very high levels, since I'm constantly reconfiguring all my battalions and inventory, while also trying to mentally track things like "oh wait, did someone pick up a new skill in a previous battle I now have to set?". One of my pet peeves of 3H is that it doesn't automatically give you a prompt when learning a sixth skill to boot out one of your old ones (the way Awakening and Fates did).

If you don't mind drifting slightly off topic, can I ask what rule you used for bonus exp in PoR? And did you allow free deployment when needed for recruitment? I am definitely interested in doing that run, and may as well copy a ruleset someone else has already made. (Also, as an aside, I am currently replaying Radiant Dawn and I'm trying to imagine what the run would look like there, and I think I'm going to break out in cold sweats or give myself nightmares.)

Edited by lenticular
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4 hours ago, lenticular said:

If you don't mind drifting slightly off topic, can I ask what rule you used for bonus exp in PoR? And did you allow free deployment when needed for recruitment? I am definitely interested in doing that run, and may as well copy a ruleset someone else has already made. (Also, as an aside, I am currently replaying Radiant Dawn and I'm trying to imagine what the run would look like there, and I think I'm going to break out in cold sweats or give myself nightmares.)

One of the rules I use for these runs is everyone must be recruited, so if a deployment is required to make that happen, so be it (e.g. Rolf must be used in the map you recruit Shinon, even if he isn't one of the lowest-levelled people). If I recall correctly I also allowed myself to use Ulki to make Naesala retreat in chapter 19, though you could quibble that as it's not technically a recruitment. Here's the ruleset I used, naturally feel free to copy or deviate as much as you wish, because the goal of any challenge is to do what you find most fun:

Spoiler

1. Only the lowest levelled PCs may be brought into any map. Tiebreak is for lowest Experience, naturally.
2. Every unit in the game must be recruited, and must be kept alive until the final chapter, so that there is no cheaping out of the system by conveniently killing Shinon. <_<
3. Effort should be taken to even out levels as much as possible. Which basically means "no letting Ike run away with a level lead".
4. No resources to boost up a unit's performance artificially, including bands (arbitrary, but it was the first playthrough on this memory card, so I had no choice!), stat boosters, Bonus Experience, Arms Scrolls, Master Seals, etc. Exception for skill scrolls. I'm not sure why, I just find them fun, and it's my challenge, so 😛 . More seriously, skills need to not be banned or Ashnard becomes unbeatable
5. Ena and Naesala are the lowest level of their splitpath PC blocks, so they must be chosen! Not that there's any choosing to do with Ena, unless Ike gets an RNG blesssing to end all RNG blessings.
6. Hard Mode.

 

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yeesh...  That reminds me, I always feel that enemy pegasus knights in this game seem to be stronger - and way more aggravating -  relative to other enemy units. A far cry from the GBA games where they were pretty much fodder, to be certain.

This begs the question, do pegasi and wyverns ever appear on a map at the same time?

Yeah, I definitely second your thoughts about how different it is from GBA!

Rarely, but yes. One example off the top of my head is Azure Moon's Enbarr City map.

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Oh challenge runs, nice! I do a lot of challenge runs, though I do them on hard because I'm not smart enough for maddening.

I've done a whole bunch of 1-classline-only runs, so much I've grown tired of them by now. Though particularly my Magitri (magic Dimitri in mages only), Puncher Hanneman (war master line only), Bow Knight only and Pegasi only runs were a lot of fun too.

One of the first challenges I always give myself for a second playthrough when a new game comes out, is the AI only run. Only for the avatar (or lord for games without avatar) you can choose movement, all your other units must simply walk towards the enemy they can deal most damage, and do just that. This was pretty easy on normal mode, except for Caspar's chapter, where I sort of cheated by giving Caspar no weapons. Might try again in hard mode, but this one obviously requires little strategy and more luck.

My current playthrough is one where I picked 8 of my favorite characters with the highest growth in a single stat, I picked the class path with the highest growth and have to give all of the corresponding stat boosters to the unit training that stat. Let's see how high I can get those stats. Fairly easy so far for hard mode.

Some great idea's in this thread actually, I'd love to try the chess idea, with actually only making characters move the same way their class does. And I still need to do another support run, might as well use the good teacher idea there, I wonder what class the death knight wants to be. =P

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On 8/23/2021 at 12:36 AM, lenticular said:

Chess pieces team: Your team is your houseleader and Byleth in their unique classes (king and queen), two fortress knights (rooks), two paladins (knights), two bishops (guess), and eight commoners (pawns). No other restrictions.

Beautiful and unique snowflakes: All aspects of all builds must be unique. Nobody may duplicate another unit's class, abilities, combat arts, or off-hand item. Class duplication is obviously allowed early on when there aren't enough classes to go around, but is strictly prohibited by endgame. For abilities, each ability can be used on only one unit. So, only one unit with Death Blow, only one with Hit +20, only one with Magic +2, etc. Optionally, it might be more fun to allow everyone to equip their prowess skill of choice, since those are fairly integral to game balance, but leave all other skills unique. Keeping combat arts and off-hand items unique shouldn't be too much of a challenge, I wouldn't think. Although combat arts might be a bit rough in the early game. Unique weapons might also be viable, though I'm not sure how much that would restrict available weapon swaps. The goal here is to discourage over-reliance on dominant strategies and force usage of some more niche options.

These sound like fun. I may do those latter.

16 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, you're basically stuck with your in-house team plus staff members, Ashen Wolves (if available), and Sylvain if playing as FByleth on non-Lions. That's enough to assemble a perfectly competent team on any route, but it does lack the variety. Obviously, it was a proof of concept, and I would suggest that if recruitment is important to you, that you relax the restrictions in some way such that it becomes easier. The lategame wasn't as rough as you might think (at least my version, banning seminars as lenticular did would certainly take a bite out of your skill gains).

Well, you can rarely get some recruits be achieving their unsupported recruitment requirements.  Problem is that the most likely candidate is Felix, who requires 15 Spd & B+ Swords...  Good luck getting B+ before Time-Skip in that type of Challenge run.

13 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yeesh...  That reminds me, I always feel that enemy pegasus knights in this game seem to be stronger - and way more aggravating -  relative to other enemy units. A far cry from the GBA games where they were pretty much fodder, to be certain.

This begs the question, do pegasi and wyverns ever appear on a map at the same time?

#1 Fun fact!  All Lv20~29 'Pegasus Knights' on the opponent's side are actually a Enemy-only class masquerading under the name!  They get the following bonus stats to their bases:  +5 Hp, +9(!) Str, +2 Mg, +5 Skl, +6 Spd, +2 Luc, +7(!) Def, +6 Res, +1 Move.  Oh, and Lancefaire, too, just to rub the salt into the wound.

#2 I don't think they do?  But then, I do have vague recollections of there being Pegasi on the last map of Part 1, and Ladislava is there.

17 minutes ago, whase said:

One of the first challenges I always give myself for a second playthrough when a new game comes out, is the AI only run. Only for the avatar (or lord for games without avatar) you can choose movement, all your other units must simply walk towards the enemy they can deal most damage, and do just that. This was pretty easy on normal mode, except for Caspar's chapter, where I sort of cheated by giving Caspar no weapons. Might try again in hard mode, but this one obviously requires little strategy and more luck.

Ah, jeez.  Reminds me of the time I did a Auto-only run of Awakening Hard-mode.  So much death... so much suffering... ... and the horrible parings, too...

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7 minutes ago, Ouzyxol said:

Ah, jeez.  Reminds me of the time I did a Auto-only run of Awakening Hard-mode.  So much death... so much suffering... ... and the horrible parings, too...

Oh right, lately games have auto play I use for this challenge. It's the older games where I have to make up the AI myself. Not sure if maybe it's more interesting if you can write simple AI (on paper, not inside the actual game code) per character at the start of each chapter, might make it somewhat possible to try on maddening?

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I just thought of this right now as I was looking through this thread, but an enemy-phase only challenge would be really interesting.

What I mean by enemy-phase only is, units are allowed to attack only during enemy phase. So things like brave weapons would be less effective, gambits and combat arts are completely obsolete, and glass cannons like Lysithea would have a really hard time.

You can probably take it a step further where only moving and waiting is allowed during player phase so that things like vulneraries and healing spells would be forbidden as well. This will also finally make Linhardt's and Raphael's personals useful LOL.

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3 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

#1 Fun fact!  All Lv20~29 'Pegasus Knights' on the opponent's side are actually a Enemy-only class masquerading under the name!  They get the following bonus stats to their bases:  +5 Hp, +9(!) Str, +2 Mg, +5 Skl, +6 Spd, +2 Luc, +7(!) Def, +6 Res, +1 Move.  Oh, and Lancefaire, too, just to rub the salt into the wound.

Yes, but also no.  *All* classes have enemy-only versions, but they don't have personal base stats or base growths like PCs do.  It's like saying "Pegasus Knight Ingrid has +8 Str, +6 Magic, +6 Skill, " etc. Yeah, that's true, but that's just Ingrid's bases.  (Fair point that there's two different sets for enemy Pegasus Knights though, the enemy 10-19 and enemy 20-29.)

It is true that enemy flyers got dealt unusually good growths (most notable in the quirk wherein late-recruiting Ingrid gets her unusually good defenses, since she'll have leveled in enemy Pegasus Knight instead which is notably tankier than PC Pegasus Knight).

Edited by SnowFire
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6 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

Well, you can rarely get some recruits be achieving their unsupported recruitment requirements.  Problem is that the most likely candidate is Felix, who requires 15 Spd & B+ Swords...  Good luck getting B+ before Time-Skip in that type of Challenge run.

Ignatz (B authority and a trivial stat requirement) is probably the easiest non-Sylvain student in the game to recruit, although you're still looking at well into part 1 under these rules. Dorothea has the same skill requirement but also needs 25 charm. Authority is the easiest skill to level because every action Byleth takes does it, and it starts pretty high + as a boon. Felix is a bit tougher because B+ is a lot higher than B and also requires you use swords a lot.

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2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Ignatz (B authority and a trivial stat requirement) is probably the easiest non-Sylvain student in the game to recruit, although you're still looking at well into part 1 under these rules. Dorothea has the same skill requirement but also needs 25 charm. Authority is the easiest skill to level because every action Byleth takes does it, and it starts pretty high + as a boon. Felix is a bit tougher because B+ is a lot higher than B and also requires you use swords a lot.

That is true when it comes to Felix. Assuming that you’re using the faculty drills to increase your sword rank at least you’ll get him eventually. Faster if you’re also using the sauna. Other recruits are bit tougher like Ferdinand or Raphael who need heavy armor at rank C assuming no supports.

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49 minutes ago, Barren said:

That is true when it comes to Felix. Assuming that you’re using the faculty drills to increase your sword rank at least you’ll get him eventually. Faster if you’re also using the sauna. Other recruits are bit tougher like Ferdinand or Raphael who need heavy armor at rank C assuming no supports.

Oh, faculty training makes recruiting anyone easy enough; my comments were in the context of a run that bans most monastery functions, including faculty training.

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21 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Oh, faculty training makes recruiting anyone easy enough; my comments were in the context of a run that bans most monastery functions, including faculty training.

Ahh gotcha. Then that’s fair enough.

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17 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Yes, but also no.  *All* classes have enemy-only versions, but they don't have personal base stats or base growths like PCs do.  It's like saying "Pegasus Knight Ingrid has +8 Str, +6 Magic, +6 Skill, " etc. Yeah, that's true, but that's just Ingrid's bases.  (Fair point that there's two different sets for enemy Pegasus Knights though, the enemy 10-19 and enemy 20-29.)

It is true that enemy flyers got dealt unusually good growths (most notable in the quirk wherein late-recruiting Ingrid gets her unusually good defenses, since she'll have leveled in enemy Pegasus Knight instead which is notably tankier than PC Pegasus Knight).

#1  Well, the enemy only Advanced-tier Pegasus Knight is different than what you're saying, at least as far as I can tell.  Please, do correct me if I am reading you wrong.

According to this (Bases) and this (Skills), the Enemy Only Pegasi that are at Advanced-tier Levels (20+) are of a completely different class than the Playable Pegasus Knight, with better Bases, Move and Lancefaire, hence my stating of there being a separate class entirely.

Small side note, but Prolog Jeralt and Chapter 5 Gilbert also have 'unique' classes, in that they are the mostly the same, but have lower bases due to them being in early chapters.  And on the opposite side of the spectrum is Judith's 'Lord' class, which is significantly stronger than base Lord.

#2  Very true.

14 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Ignatz (B authority and a trivial stat requirement) is probably the easiest non-Sylvain student in the game to recruit, although you're still looking at well into part 1 under these rules. Dorothea has the same skill requirement but also needs 25 charm. Authority is the easiest skill to level because every action Byleth takes does it, and it starts pretty high + as a boon. Felix is a bit tougher because B+ is a lot higher than B and also requires you use swords a lot.

Well, you have more time to train Swords before you get your first Battalion, and even then, someone else may want one of the 3 you have before the Guild becomes available.  Also, out of curiosity, what other Weapons do you train Byleth in aside from Swords?

But yeah, Ignatz and Dorothea are also the likely recruits in that Challenge Run.

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6 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

Well, you have more time to train Swords before you get your first Battalion, and even then, someone else may want one of the 3 you have before the Guild becomes available.  Also, out of curiosity, what other Weapons do you train Byleth in aside from Swords?

But yeah, Ignatz and Dorothea are also the likely recruits in that Challenge Run.

I think I mainly used bows and lances, because Curved Shot and Tempest Lance are both very good and they lead to useful Intermediate classes (also because Seteth, Shamir, and Hanneman are all good seminar options for the team generally, which I was doing a lot of). Advanced classes were difficult to qualify for so once I got to Enlightened One I'd have switched back mostly to swords, but there's no way I hit B+ by the timeskip.

More generally, though, while it's true you do get a bit of a head start on swords, it's not going to make up the gap between B and B+. That's a difference of 280 weapon exp, which is equal to over 90 actions, and even if all your pre-battalion actions are with swords it won't be many.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I think I mainly used bows and lances, because Curved Shot and Tempest Lance are both very good and they lead to useful Intermediate classes (also because Seteth, Shamir, and Hanneman are all good seminar options for the team generally, which I was doing a lot of). Advanced classes were difficult to qualify for so once I got to Enlightened One I'd have switched back mostly to swords, but there's no way I hit B+ by the timeskip.

Axes are another must-train area if you want Teach to learn Death Blow, or a defense boost from Armor Knight certification. And Gauntlets are a nice option for an earlygame brave attack. So even though Swords are hypothetically Teach's "best" weapon type, they have a motivation to train in just about anything.

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  • 4 months later...

Late to the conversation, but I'm doing a Silver Snow challenge where from the beginning of the game I can only use church people (so a lot of early chapters are only Byleth, or Byleth with Edeglard in a corner) on maddening NG+. Just don't be an idiot like me and completely forget that the game will force you to use BE students in that one chapter post timeskip who will likely still be severely underleveled if you haven't prepared... (you can adjutant them pre-timeskip and have them focus on flying I suppose to avoid massacre).

Additionally, I have a NO SHOPS rule. So no buying any weapons, items, ores, batallions, etc. They only exception is for seals to advance classes. 
I would recommend having online play turned on, because this heavily relies on picking up some weapons on the purple sparkling squares. Also having the DLC helps because of the place that gives you a few weapons every month. You can repair weapons if you have the ore, but you can't buy ore so it needs to be chosen carefully. Definitely utilise the free repairs you get post timeskip. Recruiting students always come with a free weapon, so utilise this as well. It also makes bows very valuable early game.

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One run I want to do  on Silver Snow is a Commoner Only run. This isn't based entirely on how the game classify them though, but on logic (for example I was thinking of disqualifying Petra because she's a Princess even if she starts in the Noble class). I'd let every "Noble" students die and only use a consolidated team of non Noble characters. One things I worry is that it might make the Reunion at Dawn chapter too difficult on SS. Maybe GD would be better but it feels less fun. What do you think?

Edited by salinea
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