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Quickpawmaud

Flying classes kinda suck on Maddening. Change my mind.

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There are archers everywhere and none of the fliers I have are very bulky to begin with. The flying doesn't really benefit them much if they can never go into enemy range anyways. I am not all that great at Fire Emblem so surely there is a reason people think they are the best. They are amazing in my favorite game Shadows of Valentia. I always use all three Pegasus Sisters in that game. Here I am doing Blue Lions New Game+ Maddening and Ingrid and Seteth suck. Ingrid has like 40+ Speed and still can't double all the time and when she can she doesn't even one round. She gets killed by anything that doubles her. Seteth just came too late I just unlocked Swiftstrikes and I am on like Chapter 20 and he is only level 32 and just got into Wyvern Lord when all my other units are like level 40+. I remember in my original Silver Snow run on Hard New Game Petra was like my best unit but Maddening is way different. Snipers and Warmasters just seem like way better classes with the Hunter's Volley and Crit bonus respectively. I grinded up Flayn into Dark Flier once I discovered she gave a might bonus to Byleth and I had to use her for Felix's Paralogue to stop the villagers from committing suicide. I will see if she is good with that on my next New Game+ for Golden Deer. I will also try to use Seteth more in that playthrough as well and give him more of a chance since I can get Hit+20 and Deathblow right away for him next time as well as give him Swiftstrikes. Claude is probably good too.

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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Fliers don't have the level of combat as snipers and punchers. But they definitely don't suck. Being able to fly over terrain lets you circumvent the intended challenge of most enemy formations as you aggro just one or two enemies rather than a whole pack of overlapping attack ranges. Plus there's dismounting on terrain, and Alert Stance activating even after you mount or dismount on that turn, so they can have an unusually safe enemy phase that other units don't have, pulling enemies in so that your delete buttons (punchers, snipers) can get the kill.

If you want fliers with great combat, you want Seteth's swift strikes, Leonie's hunter volley, or Claude's post time skip class with a brave bow. Those three options are generally enough to OHKO. But all of them except Claude will take some higher than average investment in skill exp and class mastering to get there. It's worth it though.

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23 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Fliers don't have the level of combat as snipers and punchers. But they definitely don't suck. Being able to fly over terrain lets you circumvent the intended challenge of most enemy formations as you aggro just one or two enemies rather than a whole pack of overlapping attack ranges. Plus there's dismounting on terrain, and Alert Stance activating even after you mount or dismount on that turn, so they can have an unusually safe enemy phase that other units don't have, pulling enemies in so that your delete buttons (punchers, snipers) can get the kill.

If you want fliers with great combat, you want Seteth's swift strikes, Leonie's hunter volley, or Claude's post time skip class with a brave bow. Those three options are generally enough to OHKO. But all of them except Claude will take some higher than average investment in skill exp and class mastering to get there. It's worth it though.

If there were more maps with terrain penalties I would agree flying is really good but the amount of archers in this game and the lack of terrain makes it not as useful I think. Almost none of the maps have terrain just some walls you can fly over. The only map I can remember is Seteth and Flayn's paralogue. I never really use dismount though which is probably why I have such a problem with archers I guess.

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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27 minutes ago, Quickpawmaud said:

If there were more maps with terrain penalties I would agree flying is really good but the amount of archers in this game and the lack of terrain makes it not as useful I think. Almost none of the maps have terrain just some walls you can fly over. The only map I can remember is Seteth and Flayn's paralogue. I never really use dismount though which is probably why I have such a problem with archers I guess.

The dismount command can be especially effective if you’re trying to get someone wait at a tile that offers really high avoid with alert stance activated.

As far as Ingrid and Seteth not working out for you, were they stat screwed for you? Ingrid’s growths aren’t the greatest for her starting off but can be salvageable. Seteth has the issue of coming in too late into part 1. Even with all of these issues, getting doubled on maddening comes with the territory usually unless you have ways to kill the enemies first without much trouble.

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2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

If you want fliers with great combat, you want Seteth's swift strikes, Leonie's hunter volley, or Claude's post time skip class with a brave bow. Those three options are generally enough to OHKO. But all of them except Claude will take some higher than average investment in skill exp and class mastering to get there. It's worth it though.

Adding to these, Ferdinand and Sylvain are two more Swift Strikers with a fairly easy Fighter -> Brigand -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord course. Also Cyril - same class chain, just with Point-Blank Volley this time.

Another way to use fliers is to go all-in on Flight rank. Get Alert Stance+, and combined with class-based Avoid +10, you have a really solid enemy-phase dodgetank. There are plenty of other tools to bolster this - Weapon Prowess, Weaponbreaker, Avoid-boosting battalions, Defiant Avoid, and the Evasion ring, to name a few.

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Sounds like you're having a rough time if not properly utilizing the Flier classes. Definitely get Death Blow on units like Seteth, and farm strength boosters if Swift Strikes or anyone's combat arts aren't one rounding enemies. In-house Ingrid is kind of weak, but she can be patched up.

Dismounting with Alert Stance+ and the innate Avoid+10 that the Master flier classes have makes for great dodge tanking.

Archers are relatively scare from what I remember. On most maps you can Stride/Warp, delete the Archers, then canto back to safety.

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8 hours ago, LoneStar said:

Sounds like you're having a rough time if not properly utilizing the Flier classes. Definitely get Death Blow on units like Seteth, and farm strength boosters if Swift Strikes or anyone's combat arts aren't one rounding enemies. In-house Ingrid is kind of weak, but she can be patched up.

Dismounting with Alert Stance+ and the innate Avoid+10 that the Master flier classes have makes for great dodge tanking.

Archers are relatively scare from what I remember. On most maps you can Stride/Warp, delete the Archers, then canto back to safety.

I am not having a hard time at all really. Warlock Annette and Sniper Ashe can one round everything and Byleth and Dimitri can tank a few enemies each. I spent a lot of time grinding up Dedue into a monster as well. He is a Warmaster with Killer Lance, Vengeance, Deathblow, Vantage, Wrath, Hit+20, and Lancefaire. On every map there are archers covering 90% of the map. I usually count at least 5 usually closer to 10 as well as ambush spawns that one shot my fliers. My weaker units are Swordmaster Felix, Paladin Sylvain, and Falcon Knight Ingrid. I gave Ingrid a bunch of stat boosters in Strength, Speed, HP, and Defense so I don't think she is screwed she is just bad. Sylvain can one round easily but he is a piece of glass and dies in one or two hits usually. I got Hit+20 and Death Blow or Fiendish Blow for everyone except Mercedes. I am on chapter 19 right now and counted 7 archers that cover literally the entire map. 

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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I definitely subscribe to the school of thought that says fliers are incredibly good in this game and the conventional wisdom that Wyvern Lord is the game's most busted class.

  • Dismount means the archer weakness should basically never matter, and they can take advantage of terrain. It's a free action, and mounting on the next turn before you move is also a free action, so you don't even lose mobility. (Also, dismount lets them use gauntlets, which can be nice for the midgame or on Catherine.) If you really want to avoid dismounting later you can use the Aurora Shield, it's one of the better shields anyway due to no weight penalty.
  • They're the best dodgetanks with innate Avo+10 and natural fastest access to Alert Stance(+), with dodgetanking being the most effective means of survival on Maddening
  • They have high modifiers for str/spd, the most important stats.
  • Canto is really good! It lets them kill and keep moving, kill and retreat to safety, or kill and set up linked attacks for others. In this and every other game with it, having Canto is so much better than not, to the point where canto classes are almost automatically the best.
  • There are so many maps where fliers make achieving goals so much easier... many paralogues + a few story fights have you saving NPCs and fliers will be the first to reach them.
  • You can always improve a flier's combat via giving them good battalions, weapons (forged brave comes to mind)... and while I don't do use these often, cooking and stat boosters. It's much harder to improve a ground unit's mobility.
Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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3 hours ago, Quickpawmaud said:

I am not having a hard time at all really. Warlock Annette and Sniper Ashe can one round everything and Byleth and Dimitri can tank a few enemies each. I spent a lot of time grinding up Dedue into a monster as well. He is a Warmaster with Killer Lance, Vengeance, Deathblow, Vantage, Wrath, Hit+20, and Lancefaire. On every map there are archers covering 90% of the map. I usually count at least 5 usually closer to 10 as well as ambush spawns that one shot my fliers. My weaker units are Swordmaster Felix, Paladin Sylvain, and Falcon Knight Ingrid. I gave Ingrid a bunch of stat boosters in Strength, Speed, HP, and Defense so I don't think she is screwed she is just bad. Sylvain can one round easily but he is a piece of glass and dies in one or two hits usually. I got Hit+20 and Death Blow or Fiendish Blow for everyone except Mercedes. I am on chapter 19 right now and counted 7 archers that cover literally the entire map. 

As long as you're getting through fine it doesn't matter too much.

Chapter 19, that's the map where you have to protect Claude. Honesty that map is a real pain, this is where a 1 or 2 turn clear is probably the best. And I think chapter 21 is going to be pretty annoying without some good fliers.

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The issue with Seteth is that he comes late (as in right before the end of part 1 late), and thus starts behind the characters you've been working with from the word go. Unless you're willing to go out of your way to pick up the likes of Death Blow.

17 hours ago, Quickpawmaud said:

I am not all that great at Fire Emblem so surely there is a reason people think they are the best. They are amazing in my favorite game Shadows of Valentia. I always use all three Pegasus Sisters in that game.

In the series in general, flying units are considered good because of high movement combined with generally unrestricted movement. Some games, like this one for example, take it a step further with the ability to move again after certain actions (assuming, of course, the unit didn't use up all their movement beforehand, in which case their turn is automatically ended).

Edited by Shadow Mir

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4 hours ago, Quickpawmaud said:

My weaker units are Swordmaster Felix, Paladin Sylvain, and Falcon Knight Ingrid. I gave Ingrid a bunch of stat boosters in Strength, Speed, HP, and Defense so I don't think she is screwed she is just bad. Sylvain can one round easily but he is a piece of glass and dies in one or two hits usually. I got Hit+20 and Death Blow or Fiendish Blow for everyone except Mercedes. I am on chapter 19 right now

Hmm. Your Ingrid should be an effective unit, from what you've said. I'm going to run some numbers.

Ingrid: Fighter -> Brigand & Pegasus -> Wyvern Rider -> Falcon Knight
Death Blow, Darting Blow, Lance Prowess, Str+2, Alert Stance+ [if you don't care about evasion, sub in Weight-3 or Hit+20 instead]

Not sure what level you are, but 35 seems reasonable offhand. You said you gave her stat boosters, so I'm going to consider one Energy Drop and one Speedwing.

With all that, she should have 30 str and 37 spd. With Luin, Galatea Pegasus, Death/Darting Blow, and Lancefaire she has 65 atk and 40 AS. This doubles everything on the map except the Heroes and Falcon Knights. She one-rounds the bishops, snipers, and paladins (only the paladins need Luin, incidentally; silver+ works for the rest). With a Brave Lance(+), her AS drops to 36 but she quads and kills the fortress knights without battalions (the ones with are probably out of reach for her, but at 48 prot they'll give most physical units pause... just use magic), and the boss. The Mortal Savants are slightly out of reach at these numbers, but she can get them with either 2 more atk (e.g. from a Felix or Sylvain link) or a Speed Ring/Weight-3 to quad them.

And on top of this she has an evasion stat which can reach 120 (~35 AS + Lance Prowess, Galatea, Avo+10, Alert Stance+, Evasion Ring, adjutant) if desired. Average enemy hit rate on that map is 121.

And she does all this with 8 move/canto/flight, on a map where mobile units are extra valuable due to the effective time limit. This all sounds good to me. If she's not an effective unit it's either because you haven't built her properly, or that the RNG has not been kind to her. Either way, it is not a weakness of fliers. And Ingrid isn't even one of the better fliers in the game! Her low str definitely holds her back a bit (though having two +3 atk supporters does help... this is incidentally one of the reasons I recommend Bow Knight Felix on Lions runs, because he can easily support both Sylvain and Ingrid this way).

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2 hours ago, LoneStar said:

As long as you're getting through fine it doesn't matter too much.

Chapter 19, that's the map where you have to protect Claude. Honesty that map is a real pain, this is where a 1 or 2 turn clear is probably the best. And I think chapter 21 is going to be pretty annoying without some good fliers.

I actually cleared the map by using stride on Ingrid and killing the boss so she is not as useless now as she was earlier in the game. Glad the stat boosters paid off plus she just unlock Lancefaire from S+ Lances so with double Faire and Death Blow she is a lot better. 

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hmm. Your Ingrid should be an effective unit, from what you've said. I'm going to run some numbers.

Ingrid: Fighter -> Brigand & Pegasus -> Wyvern Rider -> Falcon Knight
Death Blow, Darting Blow, Lance Prowess, Str+2, Alert Stance+ [if you don't care about evasion, sub in Weight-3 or Hit+20 instead]

Not sure what level you are, but 35 seems reasonable offhand. You said you gave her stat boosters, so I'm going to consider one Energy Drop and one Speedwing.

With all that, she should have 30 str and 37 spd. With Luin, Galatea Pegasus, Death/Darting Blow, and Lancefaire she has 65 atk and 40 AS. This doubles everything on the map except the Heroes and Falcon Knights. She one-rounds the bishops, snipers, and paladins (only the paladins need Luin, incidentally; silver+ works for the rest). With a Brave Lance(+), her AS drops to 36 but she quads and kills the fortress knights without battalions (the ones with are probably out of reach for her, but at 48 prot they'll give most physical units pause... just use magic), and the boss. The Mortal Savants are slightly out of reach at these numbers, but she can get them with either 2 more atk (e.g. from a Felix or Sylvain link) or a Speed Ring/Weight-3 to quad them.

And on top of this she has an evasion stat which can reach 120 (~35 AS + Lance Prowess, Galatea, Avo+10, Alert Stance+, Evasion Ring, adjutant) if desired. Average enemy hit rate on that map is 121.

And she does all this with 8 move/canto/flight, on a map where mobile units are extra valuable due to the effective time limit. This all sounds good to me. If she's not an effective unit it's either because you haven't built her properly, or that the RNG has not been kind to her. Either way, it is not a weakness of fliers. And Ingrid isn't even one of the better fliers in the game! Her low str definitely holds her back a bit (though having two +3 atk supporters does help... this is incidentally one of the reasons I recommend Bow Knight Felix on Lions runs, because he can easily support both Sylvain and Ingrid this way).

Here is my Ingrid
Lvl 42

HP 59

Str 37

Dex 25

Spd 45

Lck 26

Def 25

Res 28

Cha 30

Lance Prowess 5, Hit+20, Death Blow, Darting Blow, Lancefaire

She was one of my worst units for pretty much the entire game especially in part 1. Now with the plus 16 damage from abilities she can one round most things with Silver Lance+ I gave her pretty much all of my stat boosters in part 2 to try to patch her up. She has the max Galatea Pegasus Battalion as well. I gave her like +10 Str and Spd from boosters and like +14 HP and +5 Def or so. She can survive one hit now so as long as she is never in range of archers or multiple enemies she is fine. Her Dex is kinda bad though so her Hit is worse than some of my other units and she doesn't have any good Combat Arts. Frozen Lance is based on Dex and that is her worst stat. All my other units do more than just attack though. Byleth can heal and use Retribution Gambit as well as use Windsweep and Bane of Monsters, Dimitri can tank many enemies and does really good damage even if he can't double, Dedue has the low health build stuff, Annette has 50 Magic now and one shots everything, etc. I should have gotten that flying Stride Battalion but that map was so frustrating I skipped it. 

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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On Maddening, there are a handful of unbalanced strategies that you can have your units pursue to be successful.  These include:

* Multihit Combat Arts (Hunter's Volley, Point-Blank Volley, Swift Strikes, Fierce Iron Fist)

* Long Range Mage (attacking without counterattacks, aided by Thyrsus and Caduceus Staff)

* War Master (post-Quick Riposte)

* Speedy Dodgetank Flier

* Battalion/Wrath Combo (niche)

* Vengeance builds (niche)

Fliers in Three Houses have a few big benefits.  The endgame classes (Wyvern Lord and Falcon Knight) both provide class bonuses in speed (4 for Wyvern Lord, 5 for Falcon Knight).  Both of those classes also have an inherent Dodge +10 ability.  By virtue of being flying classes, units in these classes have a huge leg up in getting Alert Stance/Alert Stance+ (an additional +15/+30 evasion when using the 'Wait' command).

That said, fliers don't get the benefit of consecutive attacks (barring use of a Brave weapon), and as such have to worry more about counterattacks than any of the other strategies I've listed above.  Because of that, the best units to make fliers tend to be high speed units, and the builds that you'll want to pursue are high evasion builds.  With a high enough speed, enemies will not be able to double your fliers and with enough evasion it will be exceedingly unlikely that multiple hits will land in a round of combat.  Further, because these units are reliant so heavily on speed and evasion, most often you'll want to have them equipped with Iron Weapons+ to maintain their key stats.  They should really only be looking to use heavier weapons if they can reach a spot where they can't be attacked on the ensuing Enemy Phase.  In my experience, the best dodgetank fliers to use on Maddening are in some order Petra, Leonie, Ingrid, and F!Byleth (it's not a mistake that all of these units are female, as Darting Blow is hugely valuable for these units).

Fliers tend to be the backbone of my team when I play through on Maddening.  I'll typically use four fliers and they'll make up the lion's share of the physical damage I'll be dealing on any given map.  So if you're finding them ineffective, either you're using them incorrectly or have unreasonable expectations about what a unit can do on Maddening.

I will note that Ingrid, particularly Blue Lions Ingrid, is something of a special case.  Her low strength, and low strength growth, can be mitigated to some extent in the midgame without using stat boosters, but it is far too late for that now.  But given that you've already used the stat boosters, your Ingrid's stats should be plenty good to make it through the rest of the game.  Definitely swap in Alert Stance for Hit+20 (Ingrid should still be getting 90-100% hit rates), and consider swapping out Darting Blow for Swordbreaker (which make Ingrid a great anti-Swordmaster, anti-Assassin unit.

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9 minutes ago, SumG said:

Fliers in Three Houses have a few big benefits.  The endgame classes (Wyvern Lord and Falcon Knight) both provide class bonuses in speed (4 for Wyvern Lord, 5 for Falcon Knight).  Both of those classes also have an inherent Dodge +10 ability.  By virtue of being flying classes, units in these classes have a huge leg up in getting Alert Stance/Alert Stance+ (an additional +15/+30 evasion when using the 'Wait' command).

That said, fliers don't get the benefit of consecutive attacks (barring use of a Brave weapon), and as such have to worry more about counterattacks than any of the other strategies I've listed above.  Because of that, the best units to make fliers tend to be high speed units, and the builds that you'll want to pursue are high evasion builds.  With a high enough speed, enemies will not be able to double your fliers and with enough evasion it will be exceedingly unlikely that multiple hits will land in a round of combat.  Further, because these units are reliant so heavily on speed and evasion, most often you'll want to have them equipped with Iron Weapons+ to maintain their key stats.  They should really only be looking to use heavier weapons if they can reach a spot where they can't be attacked on the ensuing Enemy Phase.  In my experience, the best dodgetank fliers to use on Maddening are in some order Petra, Leonie, Ingrid, and F!Byleth (it's not a mistake that all of these units are female, as Darting Blow is hugely valuable for these units).

I would also emphasize that high charm is needed for this, otherwise enemy gambits will ruin your day, due to rattling your unit if they connect.

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32 minutes ago, SumG said:

On Maddening, there are a handful of unbalanced strategies that you can have your units pursue to be successful.  These include:

* Multihit Combat Arts (Hunter's Volley, Point-Blank Volley, Swift Strikes, Fierce Iron Fist)

* Long Range Mage (attacking without counterattacks, aided by Thyrsus and Caduceus Staff)

* War Master (post-Quick Riposte)

* Speedy Dodgetank Flier

* Battalion/Wrath Combo (niche)

* Vengeance builds (niche)

Fliers in Three Houses have a few big benefits.  The endgame classes (Wyvern Lord and Falcon Knight) both provide class bonuses in speed (4 for Wyvern Lord, 5 for Falcon Knight).  Both of those classes also have an inherent Dodge +10 ability.  By virtue of being flying classes, units in these classes have a huge leg up in getting Alert Stance/Alert Stance+ (an additional +15/+30 evasion when using the 'Wait' command).

That said, fliers don't get the benefit of consecutive attacks (barring use of a Brave weapon), and as such have to worry more about counterattacks than any of the other strategies I've listed above.  Because of that, the best units to make fliers tend to be high speed units, and the builds that you'll want to pursue are high evasion builds.  With a high enough speed, enemies will not be able to double your fliers and with enough evasion it will be exceedingly unlikely that multiple hits will land in a round of combat.  Further, because these units are reliant so heavily on speed and evasion, most often you'll want to have them equipped with Iron Weapons+ to maintain their key stats.  They should really only be looking to use heavier weapons if they can reach a spot where they can't be attacked on the ensuing Enemy Phase.  In my experience, the best dodgetank fliers to use on Maddening are in some order Petra, Leonie, Ingrid, and F!Byleth (it's not a mistake that all of these units are female, as Darting Blow is hugely valuable for these units).

Fliers tend to be the backbone of my team when I play through on Maddening.  I'll typically use four fliers and they'll make up the lion's share of the physical damage I'll be dealing on any given map.  So if you're finding them ineffective, either you're using them incorrectly or have unreasonable expectations about what a unit can do on Maddening.

I will note that Ingrid, particularly Blue Lions Ingrid, is something of a special case.  Her low strength, and low strength growth, can be mitigated to some extent in the midgame without using stat boosters, but it is far too late for that now.  But given that you've already used the stat boosters, your Ingrid's stats should be plenty good to make it through the rest of the game.  Definitely swap in Alert Stance for Hit+20 (Ingrid should still be getting 90-100% hit rates), and consider swapping out Darting Blow for Swordbreaker (which make Ingrid a great anti-Swordmaster, anti-Assassin unit.

She gets hit rates of about 70%-80% WITH Hit+20. Not sure what her Dex is supposed to be but I assume mine is screwed there. I never have her wait in enemy range anyways and try to always Canto out of range after attacking. Also I was planning to make Leonie a Bow Knight since her Multihit Combat Art is a Bow one should I not do that for some reason? Bowfaire seems really important to be able to one round and double faire is even better. So I was planning to go Cavalier/Paladin/Bow Knight after getting Hit+20, Death Blow, and Darting Blow. I assume she needs Close Counter as well so it is not like she could make room for Alert Stance anyway. Although I guess she doesn't need Darting Blow. What about Cyril he has the same thing?

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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1 hour ago, Quickpawmaud said:

She gets hit rates of about 70%-80% WITH Hit+20. Not sure what her Dex is supposed to be but I assume mine is screwed there. I never have her wait in enemy range anyways and try to always Canto out of range after attacking. Also I was planning to make Leonie a Bow Knight since her Multihit Combat Art is a Bow one should I not do that for some reason? Bowfaire seems really important to be able to one round and double faire is even better. So I was planning to go Cavalier/Paladin/Bow Knight after getting Hit+20, Death Blow, and Darting Blow. I assume she needs Close Counter as well so it is not like she could make room for Alert Stance anyway. Although I guess she doesn't need Darting Blow. What about Cyril he has the same thing?

I don’t think Leonie would need Darting Blow if you’re planning on going Bow Knight for PBV. Point Blank Volley already hits twice and with death blow and hit +20 plus a good battalion can allow her to play a lot of hit and run. Close Counter is a option that allows her to attack on enemy phase but she wouldn’t be tanking any hits from other enemies that well. You could opt for retribution so she can counter attack against anything for 5 turns while giving her something else. 
 

Cyril if he’s going Bow Knight can be a copy and paste though he gets PBV earlier which helps in the early game. Plus if anything you can also grab movement +1 or even Bow Crit +10 if you’re determined. 

Edited by Barren

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Well I think I am giving up on my Maddening playthrough at Chapter 20. It seems impossible with my team. Every other chapter was extremely doable but I have no idea how to beat this chapter and it is just not even fun to try. I was really enjoying this game for awhile but Hard is way too easy and Maddening is just unfair. I even tried creeping along the edge of the map and going one enemy at a time but it doesn't matter they spam gambits and kill my tanky units and there are just way too many enemies and monsters. Half my team can't survive one round of combat so I can't do player phase stuff since there are too many enemies to keep everyone safe while attacking. So close to the end was just 2 chapters away.

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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1 hour ago, Quickpawmaud said:

Well I think I am giving up on my Maddening playthrough at Chapter 20. It seems impossible with my team. Every other chapter was extremely doable but I have no idea how to beat this chapter and it is just not even fun to try. I was really enjoying this game for awhile but Hard is way too easy and Maddening is just unfair. I even tried creeping along the edge of the map and going one enemy at a time but it doesn't matter they spam gambits and kill my tanky units and there are just way too many enemies and monsters. Half my team can't survive one round of combat so I can't do player phase stuff since there are too many enemies to keep everyone safe while attacking. So close to the end was just 2 chapters away.

Have you tried abusing the Impregnable Wall gambit? It's a great way to safely lure in enemies on enemy-phase, whom you can then take out on the next player phase. Sacred Shield works similarly against ranged enemies, while potentially allowing for a damaging counterattack.

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7 hours ago, Quickpawmaud said:

She gets hit rates of about 70%-80% WITH Hit+20. Not sure what her Dex is supposed to be but I assume mine is screwed there. I never have her wait in enemy range anyways and try to always Canto out of range after attacking.

25 Dex is right about where she should be.

I don't see how her hit rate is so low. Killer Lance+ is 80 Hit, then she gets 25 from Dex, 15 from Lance Prowess 5, 5-15 from her battalion, and 20 from +20 Hit. That should put her at 145-155 Hit. Enemies in AM ch20 mostly have <50 avoid. Ingrid should have 95-100% on the majority of enemies. The only exception is the Falcon Knights with 73 avoid, who honestly give most units trouble. But even then you can get another 30-40% hit from linked attacks so they shouldn't be that difficulty.

7 hours ago, Quickpawmaud said:

Also I was planning to make Leonie a Bow Knight since her Multihit Combat Art is a Bow one should I not do that for some reason? Bowfaire seems really important to be able to one round and double faire is even better. So I was planning to go Cavalier/Paladin/Bow Knight after getting Hit+20, Death Blow, and Darting Blow. I assume she needs Close Counter as well so it is not like she could make room for Alert Stance anyway. Although I guess she doesn't need Darting Blow. What about Cyril he has the same thing?

Bow Knight is very strong on Leonie. WL is probably better, but it's very high investment compared to Bow Knight. Getting A Axes, A Flying, A Bows, C Lances, and B Authority is a huge pain.

Cyril is better off as WL just because he actually has strengths in Axes and Flying.

 

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12 hours ago, Quickpawmaud said:

Well I think I am giving up on my Maddening playthrough at Chapter 20. It seems impossible with my team. Every other chapter was extremely doable but I have no idea how to beat this chapter and it is just not even fun to try. I was really enjoying this game for awhile but Hard is way too easy and Maddening is just unfair. I even tried creeping along the edge of the map and going one enemy at a time but it doesn't matter they spam gambits and kill my tanky units and there are just way too many enemies and monsters. Half my team can't survive one round of combat so I can't do player phase stuff since there are too many enemies to keep everyone safe while attacking. So close to the end was just 2 chapters away.

If it’s not too much trouble, what does your team look like at the moment? Like what are their stats, equips, etc? Because I’m thinking maybe we might be able to help you a bit further.

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On 8/23/2021 at 3:41 PM, Quickpawmaud said:

Also I was planning to make Leonie a Bow Knight since her Multihit Combat Art is a Bow one should I not do that for some reason?

I found Bow Knight Leonie to be OK, but less than ideal.  Bow Knight doesn't have particularly good class bonuses or class growth bonuses (in fact, it has a penalty to speed growth), which flies in the face of Leonie's natural benefits (one of the highest expected speed's in the game).  It can be functional, but you'll be relying on either PBV or relegated to chip damage.  There's a certain novelty to being able to hit from 4-5 squares away, but if you want that functionality mages do it better since they don't incur range penalties beyond 2 squares out like archers do.

It's likely too late to switch the class progression now if you're already in Bow Knight.  Just try out Falcon Knight on your next playthrough and you'll see a massive difference.

On 8/23/2021 at 3:41 PM, Quickpawmaud said:

She gets hit rates of about 70%-80% WITH Hit+20.

What weapon is this with?  Your Ingrid's Dex is completely sufficient, and typically when using Iron Weapons+ she should be having 90-100% hit rates on anything that doesn't have Lancebreaker.  Hit rates can get a bit dicey with high tier (i.e. low accuracy weapons), so you need to pick your spots to use those.

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On 8/23/2021 at 9:18 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Have you tried abusing the Impregnable Wall gambit? It's a great way to safely lure in enemies on enemy-phase, whom you can then take out on the next player phase. Sacred Shield works similarly against ranged enemies, while potentially allowing for a damaging counterattack.

Yeah I did try this. I tried going fortress knight on Dedue and stacking protection to tank some but it was just too much for me. I lowered the difficulty to finish the last few chapters and am playing Golden Deer Hard Classic now and will try Maddening again on my Crimson Flower run. I will wait to recruit everyone until as late as possible and recruit every unit possible so they will have good stats and I can use renown to get them skills and abilities. Doing all prologues will also help since I didn't have Thyrsus in my Blue Lions run before. Hopefully that will be enough to get through pretty easily.

Edited by Quickpawmaud

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On 8/24/2021 at 6:45 PM, SumG said:

I found Bow Knight Leonie to be OK, but less than ideal.  Bow Knight doesn't have particularly good class bonuses or class growth bonuses (in fact, it has a penalty to speed growth), which flies in the face of Leonie's natural benefits (one of the highest expected speed's in the game).  It can be functional, but you'll be relying on either PBV or relegated to chip damage.  There's a certain novelty to being able to hit from 4-5 squares away, but if you want that functionality mages do it better since they don't incur range penalties beyond 2 squares out like archers do.

It's likely too late to switch the class progression now if you're already in Bow Knight.  Just try out Falcon Knight on your next playthrough and you'll see a massive difference.

What weapon is this with?  Your Ingrid's Dex is completely sufficient, and typically when using Iron Weapons+ she should be having 90-100% hit rates on anything that doesn't have Lancebreaker.  Hit rates can get a bit dicey with high tier (i.e. low accuracy weapons), so you need to pick your spots to use those.

Silver Lance+.

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3 hours ago, Quickpawmaud said:

I will wait to recruit everyone until as late as possible and recruit every unit possible so they will have good stats and I can use renown to get them skills and abilities. 

Just as a clarification, I think you've gotten some bad info here.  For whatever arcane reason (probably unintentional), unrecruited students level with enemy class growths of their "favored" class.  However, these are NOT necessarily "better".  Most of the time it's a wash, and for a few unfortunate characters they actually get worse stats than if they were leveled normally (Enemy Brigands actually lose Resistance compared to PC Brigands - sorry Caspar!).  There's only a few characters for which this is a notable stratagem - enemy Pegasus Knights & Cavaliers are significantly tankier than PC versions, so Ingrid / Leonie / Ferdinand / Sylvain all get improved tankiness if you wait.  That said, if you're recruiting Sylvain out of house, you're usually doing it in C2 anyway with F-Byleth, so it's really only relevant for the first three.  For everyone else, recruiting units sooner rather than later is usually better, although for the Ashen Wolves, waiting for C3 or so for Balthus / Hapi / Constance will get them better skill ranks than recruiting them in Commoner.

Also, if you wait as late as possible (C12 on most routes, C11 on Crimson Flower) you won't really have time to do Paralogues - most of them are in White Clouds as a warning.

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I strongly second SnowFire's comments there. To add on to what he said, some extra thoughts:

  • characters who go through Fighter or Monk (which is anyone whose primary weapon is anything except swords or lances) benefit from having their ranks in axes/bows/brawling (for fighters) or reason/faith (for monks) raised to D, which is actually a notable boon in the earlygame. This makes it easier for e.g. Ignatz/Bernadetta to qualify for Brigand, gives Raphael/Hilda/Balthus/Caspar/etc. immediate access to Curved Shot, and means all your mages will have access to both Heal and their first offensive spell immediately. It's better to recruit these characters in chapter 4-5, if you plan to use them.
  • If you do want to benefit from better growths (the biggest example is Ingrid, because enemy!pegasus is silly), then you start getting those in Chapter 6. I don't recommend waiting much longer, though, as every chapter that goes by is a chapter that they're not working towards class masteries like Death Blow and Darting Blow, and a chapter you can't tutor them. While their stats do continue to improve marginally from there, it's not worth it. e.g. if you wait 5 more chapters for Ingrid, she'll have about +1 str/HP and +2 def/res on an Ingrid who went through player class growths (depending on the exact classes you chose). That's way too little to justify what you're missing out on.
  • Shamir and Catherine are a special case where, due to a quirk of how class minimums work, their stats are almost the same regardless of their join chapter, but their level gets higher the later you get them (this is bad!). Recruit both as early as you can if you plan to use them (6 for Shamir, 4-5 for Catherine).
  • Student characters who are recruited very late for the purpose of stats are by and large just inferior to the likes of Alois, Seteth, and Jeritza, since the students will only have two ranks above E+ (the ones they auto-train), whereas those characters have several because they're actually designed to join later (e.g. Alois, the worst of the three in this regard, has C authority / C armour / A axe / B brawling, while a student recruited then will have just two ranks around high C+ or low B, and most have E authority).

I realize I made all these comments without considering NG+. It's possible that NG+ may make late recruitment more palatable, though as a warning, I believe you can only buy skills and ranks you've achieved on that particular character in a previous playthrough. I've never done NG+ myself, so someone might want to clarify.

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