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Flying classes kinda suck on Maddening. Change my mind.

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12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Simply put, in a position where a unit could attack them without moving from their initial position, or at the least, with minimal movement. 

I'm deducting points for that. In this case, for Dark Knight, 3 spaces isn't enough to get back out of the range of whatever you were attacking, even against the least mobile classes (as you need to use 4 movement to get in position to attack). This only really helps against immobile enemies, which are not very common.

Sorry, but that answer gets you a point deduction. I think the riding investment is so much of a bottleneck that it would impose upon my builds to such an extent that whatever the hell Dark Knight even brings to the table doesn't make up for it (especially in terms of getting Black Magic Range +1[or Dark Magic Range +1 for Lysithea or Hapi]).

At the risk of being snarky... how does one gain points in your answer-scoring system? Is it by steadfastly ignoring any numbers/examples your opponents cite to back up their points while refusing to provide your own?

Calling a 460 exp investment a "bottleneck" seems like a misuse of the term to me, seeing as it represents less than 1/8 of the exp budget up to that point and can be done in parallel with other forms of training in a number of ways.

Anyway, it's true that moving 3 squares back will not be enough to escape whatever you just attacked (unless the enemy can't move or your attack prevents their movement). However, consider:

  • While Shanty Pete's 1st Mate used no-Thyrsus numbers for illustration, what if we add Thyrsus to the mix? Now the Dark Knight who needs to move 4 squares can make that move, strike at range 4, and retreat 3, being now 7 squares away from the enemy. This actually will get out of range of any Swordmasters, Heroes, and Fortress Knights, as well as the majority of Warriors, Warlocks, Bishops, and Dark Bishops. If you can get behind an obstacle or other party member, you can escape even more enemies this way.
  • What if you need to move fewer than 4 squares forward? That would give you more squares to move back, allowing you to escape even more enemies. Of course, if we need to move more than 4 squares forward, then we're in a situation where a Warlock couldn't reach the enemy to start with; if more than 5, Gremory as well.
  • Also, I'm not sure about your playstyle, but in my experience, if I'm attacking an enemy (and the attack isn't Banshee/Encloser/Rattle), I'm killing it that turn, almost every time. Why bother otherwise? So I don't need my mage to escape the range of their primary target, I just need them to stay out of the range of any dangerous enemy further back that I'm not killing this turn. In this case, even small cantos (as little as 1 square) might be helpful in doing so.
  • Finally, canto has yet another use: if I'm expecting to kill all the enemies near the current one (or it's the last one left), canto actually lets you keep moving forward as well, or back towards the rest of the fight if you'd gone to an out of the way part of the battlefield.

It's an extremely useful ability. When added to the greater move in general it shouldn't be hard to see why a lot of people like Dark Knight.

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9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Calling a 460 exp investment a "bottleneck" seems like a misuse of the term to me, seeing as it represents less than 1/8 of the exp budget up to that point and can be done in parallel with other forms of training in a number of ways.

 

In Mir’s slight defence, I think he’s trying to say that investing in Riding specifically is the bottleneck- as in, training a movement skill to A is harder than training a weapon skill to A because you have to be in a specific class to even get points for it, so you rely on tutoring instead. But even then I think it’s not much of a criticism- you miss out on battle EXP,  but you get some from the weekly chores (8 EXP x 37 weeks of tutoring = 296, assuming you only get good results every single week. Even a single perfect will get you over the line to 300). To bring that back to your numbers from earlier, if you didn’t touch riding at all when tutoring, but fully qualified for every other rank, you’d already have enough to certify for dark knight with the minimum 30% chance (though pretty sure that would need some luck on Annette to bump up the odds). So with tutoring included it’s a simple matter to reach.

And again, just to bring it back to the maff.

4168 total, and we shall spend it by:

1320 for A reason to get Excalibur + certification. Also because I can’t remember the amount between A and B+ lol, which is what you need for Dark Knight, so for simplicity’s sake, A.

1020 for A Riding, assuming you get 300 by weekly chores. In practice you would likely get more, but this is a decent estimate. Anyway, this is the riding rank you need for 100% certification chance

300 for C lances. Now you are fully certified for Dark Knight.

1320 for A authority. 

This brings us to 3,960 points spent, and from the original build targets we still need 300 for recover. But if we were to get recover that would put us 92 points over the original estimate of 4168, which is something that could be made up through some Perfects on stable duty (12 out of 37 weeks would do it). An average 100% certification rate fan would thus be well within their limits to complete this build by chapter 17- an average savescumming enjoyer* would be able to do it even quicker.

And, again, just to reiterate, both Dark Holy Elf and I were pretty conservative in our estimations in terms of what activities could be done to get skill points, how lucky the player was in those activities, and in how much a player would be willing to spend to ensure a 100% certification rate. So, yeah, overall I’d say this is very reasonable.

*standard disclaimer that I am not judging playstyles, all playstyles are valid and everyone should play how they want.

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On 10/4/2021 at 10:19 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Your "point deduction" is based on an opinion, of all things. Please refute the numbers that have been presented. 

The point generally isn't to get out of range of the enemy I just attacked (since ideally I'm killing them this turn), but other enemies nearby them. Suppose we have Assassin A (5 spaces from my Dark Knight) and Assassin B (7 spaces from my Dark Knight). I can move my DK forward 3 spaces, attack Assassin A (ideally killing them, or doing enough damage that another unit can come in for the kill), then canto back 4 spaces. Thus leaving me 8 spaces away from Assassin B, out of his attacking range. If I tried the same with an infantry mage - even one with Magic Range +1 and Thyrsus equipped - they would still be in Assassin B's attack range. The power of Canto should not be underestimated. 

Okay, let me put it this way: Riding is a massive chore to train up when you start at E (which Annette does), don't have a bonus in it (also true of Annette), and cannot train it through battles unless you're in one of several specific classes. To get to A from E needs 1320, which is a lot considering the other stipulations. The lance requirement is mild in comparison, only needing 300 points, and it can be trained through battles, but it's still an annoyance considering that it's taking away from investment that could've been put into reason for getting to S reason sooner instead, like Riding is. And I'm gonna emphasize once again that this is for so slight an improvement that I'd only actively question why the hell I even bothered with it... imho, it's an advantage in the sense that Dark Magician's extra defense is an advantage over Summoned Skull - which is to say, it's so minor of one as to be meaningless.

Assuming the terrain is friendly to cavalry, of course, which, needless to say, ain't always the case. Otherwise, she either barely reaches the first assassin, and is thus unable to fall back after attacking, or in the worst case, cannot reach them at all... anyway, I only really found Canto useful on Bow Knights and fliers, because of their innate properties. If Canto really is as good as you and @Dark Holy Elfare selling it to me as, then I'd believe that even something like Great Knight or Holy Knight would be worth qualifying for... Yet those two classes are pretty much never recommended, and instead are commonly brought up as among the worst classes in the game. Therefore, it's not as simple as "Mount good".

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

If Canto really is as good as you and @Dark Holy Elfare selling it to me as, then I'd believe that even something like Great Knight or Holy Knight would be worth qualifying for... Yet those two classes are pretty much never recommended, and instead are commonly brought up as among the worst classes in the game.

On the one hand you readily appeal to consensus that Holy Knight and Great Knight aren't considered good, but you are ignoring the consensus that Dark Knight is considered good. The main reason Holy Knight is considered poor, incidentally, is because it's basically just a worse Dark Knight. I guarantee you that if Dark Knight (and Valkyrie) did not exist, Holy Knight would suddenly have a lot more fans as the only mounted mage class.

Great Knight, similarly, is problematic because most builds that might make use of it are better off as Paladin or Wyvern Lord, and unlike Dark Knight it is actually fairly expensive to qualify for... A/B+/B+ is notably worse than A/B+/C... a difference of 660 exp.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

To get to A from E needs 1320

The thing is that you don't actually need to get to A, or even anywhere close, to qualify for Dark Knight, and would never recommend you do so for any mounted class unless you're also going for Riding A+ (or Flying A+ in the case of wyvern/falco). Assuming ~20 luck (roughly typical for Annette at that level iirc, though I'd have to look up the specifics), she has a ~90% chance to qualify at B+, ~70% at B, ~50% at C+, and even ~30% at C (though this does require 20 luck). Even if you don't savescum the exams (which is fair, to be clear; I try not to either), ~50% is generally more than adequate. On average you'll spend an extra 3000 more on master seals this way (50% chance of 0, 25% chance of 3000, 12.5% chance of 6000, 12.5% chance of 9000+), but this is by the point in the game where money kinda grows on trees (you have loads of time and can arena for ~1500 gold whenever you want). And if 3000 gold is still too much for you, then B rank still isn't too large a exp requirement and more than halves this extra money cost.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Assuming the terrain is friendly to cavalry, of course, which, needless to say, ain't always the case. Otherwise, she either barely reaches the first assassin, and is thus unable to fall back after attacking, or in the worst case, cannot reach them at all…

If you throw Thyrsus on her, however, the situation becomes a lot more favourable again. And if her job is mainly just chip damage, then there’s a legitimate argument that Thyrsus is best on her anyways, assuming for some reason you aren’t willing to trade it around.

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2 hours ago, Anathaco said:

If you throw Thyrsus on her, however, the situation becomes a lot more favourable again. And if her job is mainly just chip damage, then there’s a legitimate argument that Thyrsus is best on her anyways, assuming for some reason you aren’t willing to trade it around.

I even used Lysithea as a Dark Knight during my Blue Lions run. She was more than serviceable since 7 move and canto gives her some flexibility. Plus Dark Tomefaire which is quite uncommon to come by is quite strong. Of course She could only use Warp once so it had better count.

Mekkah in his video pointed out that sometimes Dark Knight isn’t always the best choice pending on terrain but you can dismount though if you find yourself dismounting more often than not then all that riding training could be obsolete. But you still get 6 move when dismounted as opposed to Gremory’s 5. Gremory is still her best class but Dark Knight on occasion can be the better option pending on your team.

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On 10/5/2021 at 10:54 PM, Anathaco said:

If you throw Thyrsus on her, however, the situation becomes a lot more favourable again. And if her job is mainly just chip damage, then there’s a legitimate argument that Thyrsus is best on her anyways, assuming for some reason you aren’t willing to trade it around.

I don't know about you, but I do find myself trading that and Caduceus around between mages, so I keep those out of arguments for that reason.

On 10/5/2021 at 7:02 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

On the one hand you readily appeal to consensus that Holy Knight and Great Knight aren't considered good, but you are ignoring the consensus that Dark Knight is considered good. The main reason Holy Knight is considered poor, incidentally, is because it's basically just a worse Dark Knight. I guarantee you that if Dark Knight (and Valkyrie) did not exist, Holy Knight would suddenly have a lot more fans as the only mounted mage class.

Great Knight, similarly, is problematic because most builds that might make use of it are better off as Paladin or Wyvern Lord, and unlike Dark Knight it is actually fairly expensive to qualify for... A/B+/B+ is notably worse than A/B+/C... a difference of 660 exp.

The thing is that you don't actually need to get to A, or even anywhere close, to qualify for Dark Knight, and would never recommend you do so for any mounted class unless you're also going for Riding A+ (or Flying A+ in the case of wyvern/falco). Assuming ~20 luck (roughly typical for Annette at that level iirc, though I'd have to look up the specifics), she has a ~90% chance to qualify at B+, ~70% at B, ~50% at C+, and even ~30% at C (though this does require 20 luck). Even if you don't savescum the exams (which is fair, to be clear; I try not to either), ~50% is generally more than adequate. On average you'll spend an extra 3000 more on master seals this way (50% chance of 0, 25% chance of 3000, 12.5% chance of 6000, 12.5% chance of 9000+), but this is by the point in the game where money kinda grows on trees (you have loads of time and can arena for ~1500 gold whenever you want). And if 3000 gold is still too much for you, then B rank still isn't too large a exp requirement and more than halves this extra money cost.

But is it really that good as to justify the effort needed to get in it? Far as I'm concerned, the answer is a resounding HELL NO! Especially when it needs lance training, which does nothing for most mages but take away from something that would've been a better investment. Even more so when I don't get much of note for all the extra effort, and if you've been paying attention, and I'm sure you have, you'd have long since noted that I find Dark Knight to be guilty of this to a massive extreme, and that it's an automatic dealbreaker in my book.

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39 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but I do find myself trading that and Caduceus around between mages, so I keep those out of arguments for that reason.

Fair enough. Though if you are trading it around you can always trade it back to whomever your Dark Knight is, and then their canto may even be helpful in getting it back to its original user.

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

But is it really that good as to justify the effort needed to get in it? Far as I'm concerned, the answer is a resounding HELL NO! Especially when it needs lance training, which does nothing for most mages but take away from something that would've been a better investment. Even more so when I don't get much of note for all the extra effort, and if you've been paying attention, and I'm sure you have, you'd have long since noted that I find Dark Knight to be guilty of this to a massive extreme, and that it's an automatic dealbreaker in my book.

C in any single rank is pretty trivially easy to achieve. Also, the fact that Dark Knight requires three areas of training actually makes it easier to certify in - a unit two ranks down from Dark Knight (say D+ Lances, B+ Reason, and B+ Riding) will have better odds at certifying than one who is two ranks down from Gremory (say B+ Reason and B+ Faith).

Anyway, this argument seems to be going in a square. Most other people say "the rewards of this class are well worth the investment demands", and you say "the benefits are overstated, and the costs understated". Maybe mounted mages just don't fit very well into your playstyle? Like, you don't have to use them if you don't want to. I don't use the Warp spell nearly as often as more clever players, for instance.

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13 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

But is it really that good as to justify the effort needed to get in it? Far as I'm concerned, the answer is a resounding HELL NO! Especially when it needs lance training, which does nothing for most mages but take away from something that would've been a better investment. Even more so when I don't get much of note for all the extra effort, and if you've been paying attention, and I'm sure you have, you'd have long since noted that I find Dark Knight to be guilty of this to a massive extreme, and that it's an automatic dealbreaker in my book.

Just out of curiosity, which characters have you actually run as Dark Knights that led you to such fervent disdain for the class?

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On 10/13/2021 at 8:09 AM, lenticular said:

Just out of curiosity, which characters have you actually run as Dark Knights that led you to such fervent disdain for the class?

Frankly... None, because it requires jumping through too many extra hoops and underdelivers for that extra investment. It's comparable to calling over my friends to show off my brand new fireworks collection that shoots up 500 feet and the air and makes a giant colorful cock in the sky, which gets them excited... except the setup takes forever, everyone gets bored out of their minds, there's not enough alcohol to keep everyone occupied, and once the setup is all done and they're finally ready to launch, the fireworks make farting noises, spin out of control, and hit the neighbor's dog. I bet you would be really disappointed then, huh? Because that perfectly sums up working to get a Dark Knight, relative to Gremory. It doesn't help matters that cavalry classes are just not as good as they were in prior games (all of them except Bow Knight have negative speed modifiers unless you dismount, and ALL of them have negative speed growths. On top of that, they have to contend with terrain that slows down cavalry units and ONLY cavalry units. That said, Bow Knight is still an excellent class, but the other cavalry classes...). The way I see it, it's like "All that work for a measly 2 extra damage? Do you take me for a moron?!" whenever someone tries to sell Dark Knight as better than Gremory, because with how much the deck is stacked against cavalry, that's a really hard sell.

On 10/12/2021 at 8:12 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

C in any single rank is pretty trivially easy to achieve. Also, the fact that Dark Knight requires three areas of training actually makes it easier to certify in - a unit two ranks down from Dark Knight (say D+ Lances, B+ Reason, and B+ Riding) will have better odds at certifying than one who is two ranks down from Gremory (say B+ Reason and B+ Faith).

Anyway, this argument seems to be going in a square. Most other people say "the rewards of this class are well worth the investment demands", and you say "the benefits are overstated, and the costs understated". Maybe mounted mages just don't fit very well into your playstyle? Like, you don't have to use them if you don't want to. I don't use the Warp spell nearly as often as more clever players, for instance.

I'ma be frank, that is undermined by the fact you need to invest in three skills in the first place. Especially when at least one of those is one that you can't train through battling without being in one of several specific classes.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Frankly... None,

I'm shocked, shocked!

Well, not that shocked.

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

the fireworks make farting noises, spin out of control, and hit the neighbor's dog. I bet you would be really disappointed then, huh?

To clarify, however, you've never actually witnessed or experienced what happens when the fireworks go off? Like, you've heard of them from other people, but never had the experience for yourself?

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

It doesn't help matters that cavalry classes are just not as good as they were in prior games

Yeah, super Canto is sohhh disappointing. Also, it doesn't matter whether they're better or worse than they were in previous games. That's like saying that 3H Dancers suck because they're worse than FE4 Dancers.

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That said, Bow Knight is still an excellent class, but the other cavalry classes...

I don't see how Paladin isn't a great class. It gets 8 move before anyone else, and does more damage with Lances (and Lance arts, like Swift Strikes and Vengeance) than any other class. 

6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The way I see it, it's like "All that work for a measly 2 extra damage? Do you take me for a moron?!"

Inb4 your Gremory falls 2 points short of the OHKO. Also, that work wasn't just for 2 extra damage, but for 2 extra move and Canto.

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'ma be frank, that is undermined by the fact you need to invest in three skills in the first place. Especially when at least one of those is one that you can't train through battling without being in one of several specific classes.

Why is "three" the magic number? Like, this argument would say that a class that requires three B-ranks is a harder certification than one that requires two A-ranks. But looking at the numbers, a going E -> B demands 680 skill points, while going B -> A demands a further 640 skill points (so E -> A is 1320 total). Ergo, a double-A certification will demand 2640 skill points, while a hypothetical triple-B would demand only 2040 skill points. It's  much easier to switch a unit who's reached B in one area to something else, than to keep ascending the steeper requirements towards an A.

Also, yeah you can't get Riding in battle from non-Mounted classes. But if you're in a mounted class, you get it for every combat phase. Compare to raising a Gremory - if I'm trying to boost someone's Faith rank, I only get it from support magic, or offensive White magic. If I attack on player-phase (with Reason), and have a Reason spell equipped for enemy-phase), then I'm not gaining any Faith that turn. I'd have to go out of my way to raise Faith on the field of battle, whereas Riding is gained naturally (in addition to weapon or magic ranks) for anyone in a cavalry class.

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Shanty Pete's response is already basically perfect, but to add on to the point about 'three skills', it cannot be emphasized enough how minor one of those three is. C ranks are only 300 exp. So even if you insist on 100% certification chance, Dark Knight would requires 1320 + 960 + 300 = 2580 exp. Compare that to a class which needs double A's like Gremory or War Master... as already mentioned, is 2640. Or Bow Knight, which you just called a good class (I agree!), which is 2940. I'm not sure why you have this specific vendetta against Dark Knight, because it's really not out of line for expense for a master class... in fact, I believe only Mortal Savant (2280) is cheaper. I might be forgetting one though.

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Plus you would you also say that if even choose to certify a mage as a Paladin on route to becoming a Dark Knight they get their base strength stat increased to 17. Which actually helps reduces the weight of their tomes 10 levels earlier.
 

Plus during grind sessions for auxiliary battles you could just build your riding rank if your reason rank is already high enough. Even while you’re in the Valkyrie class on route to getting uncanny blow which really helps out those whose spells tend to be inaccurate.

 

Thats the same as certifying someone into a Wyvern Rider when you want your mage to be a Dark Flier for the same reason.

Edited by Barren

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Frankly... None, because it requires jumping through too many extra hoops and underdelivers for that extra investment. It's comparable to calling over my friends to show off my brand new fireworks collection that shoots up 500 feet and the air and makes a giant colorful cock in the sky, which gets them excited... except the setup takes forever, everyone gets bored out of their minds, there's not enough alcohol to keep everyone occupied, and once the setup is all done and they're finally ready to launch, the fireworks make farting noises, spin out of control, and hit the neighbor's dog. I bet you would be really disappointed then, huh? Because that perfectly sums up working to get a Dark Knight, relative to Gremory. It doesn't help matters that cavalry classes are just not as good as they were in prior games (all of them except Bow Knight have negative speed modifiers unless you dismount, and ALL of them have negative speed growths. On top of that, they have to contend with terrain that slows down cavalry units and ONLY cavalry units. That said, Bow Knight is still an excellent class, but the other cavalry classes...). The way I see it, it's like "All that work for a measly 2 extra damage? Do you take me for a moron?!" whenever someone tries to sell Dark Knight as better than Gremory, because with how much the deck is stacked against cavalry, that's a really hard sell.

To extend your metaphor, there's a big difference between saying "I tried these fireworks and they span out of control and hit the neighbour's dog" and saying "I've never tried these fireworks because I'm worried they might spin out of control and hit the neighbour's dog". The first would be a legitimate reason to hate those fireworks and never want to use them again. The second is a reasonable enough fear to have, but is something that can be further researched. So, you're worried about the fireworks hitting your neighbour's dog and you start looking into it. First, you go online and read a bunch of customer reviews, which are overwhelmingly positive, with many people praising the vibrancy of their colour, the wonderful rooster pattern they make in the sky, and how easy they were to operate. You read through a bunch of different reviews and nobody who's actually used them seems to have any safety concerns. Then you start looking into firework regulations and you find that this particular make of fireworks has been certified as safe by regulating bodies in multiple different countries. But you're still worried, so you go to the local university and seek out a bunch of chemists, physicists and engineers, and they do all manner of calculations regarding explosive yield and aerodynamics and everything else they can think of and they reassure you that as far as they can tell, the fireworks should be perfectly safe. Having done all this research you go home and you decide that you're not going to use them after all because you think they're going to hit the neighbour's dog.

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On 10/14/2021 at 2:48 PM, lenticular said:

To extend your metaphor, there's a big difference between saying "I tried these fireworks and they span out of control and hit the neighbour's dog" and saying "I've never tried these fireworks because I'm worried they might spin out of control and hit the neighbour's dog". The first would be a legitimate reason to hate those fireworks and never want to use them again. The second is a reasonable enough fear to have, but is something that can be further researched. So, you're worried about the fireworks hitting your neighbour's dog and you start looking into it. First, you go online and read a bunch of customer reviews, which are overwhelmingly positive, with many people praising the vibrancy of their colour, the wonderful rooster pattern they make in the sky, and how easy they were to operate. You read through a bunch of different reviews and nobody who's actually used them seems to have any safety concerns. Then you start looking into firework regulations and you find that this particular make of fireworks has been certified as safe by regulating bodies in multiple different countries. But you're still worried, so you go to the local university and seek out a bunch of chemists, physicists and engineers, and they do all manner of calculations regarding explosive yield and aerodynamics and everything else they can think of and they reassure you that as far as they can tell, the fireworks should be perfectly safe. Having done all this research you go home and you decide that you're not going to use them after all because you think they're going to hit the neighbour's dog.

Yeah, now that I think about it, I kinda think what I was hoping to say went over your head. For an easier to grasp example (and because I have been playing it a lot lately), the High Dragon weapons in Dragalia Lost. For how much work they are to get and improve, they end up not being that much of an improvement over the Chimeratech weapons, which are much easier to get and improve (note that for a High Dragon weapon to outclass a max-unbound Chimeratech, it needs 6 unbinds, which is a lot of work). Making matters worse for them, it's possible to skip straight to Agito weapons, which outclass them immediately, Going back to 3H, relative to Gremory, Dark Knight requires much more effort to qualify for... and the reward is extremely underwhelming despite this (2 extra damage does not exactly make a good case for Dark Knight). It's crap like this that leads me to have such a seething disdain for Dark Knight.

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31 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yeah, now that I think about it, I kinda think what I was hoping to say went over your head. For an easier to grasp example (and because I have been playing it a lot lately), the High Dragon weapons in Dragalia Lost. For how much work they are to get and improve, they end up not being that much of an improvement over the Chimeratech weapons, which are much easier to get and improve (note that for a High Dragon weapon to outclass a max-unbound Chimeratech, it needs 6 unbinds, which is a lot of work). Making matters worse for them, it's possible to skip straight to Agito weapons, which outclass them immediately, Going back to 3H, relative to Gremory, Dark Knight requires much more effort to qualify for... and the reward is extremely underwhelming despite this (2 extra damage does not exactly make a good case for Dark Knight). It's crap like this that leads me to have such a seething disdain for Dark Knight.

To extend this analogy, since I played a little bit of Dragalia at one point, this only accounts for weapon stats. If the High Dragon weapons had some innate advantage that neither Agito nor Chimeratech weapons could match, such as, say, a boost to the amount of dropped materials from farming battles (I wanted to make it like an attack speed advantage or something but a couple Agito weapons already have that lol) which would fundamentally make the game’s progression way smoother and quicker. Which is a pretty similar effect to what higher move and Canto can achieve in 3H. Maybe not everyone would prefer a High Dragon then, but the argument for using it would be a lot lot stronger than it is currently.

As for the standard point about dark Knight being harder to qualify for, I’m beginning to think when you say “more effort” you actually mean “more effort” as in “more physical effort generated by button inputs and more mental effort to decide when to set or tutor what goals”, rather than “more skill xp required” like the rest of us have been assuming. Because, admittedly, it feels a lot easier to get a Gremory when all you have to do is set reason and faith at the beginning of the game, then stick your finger up your butt and watch as the ranks happen… but as already pointed out that does not check out mathematically speaking.

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On 10/14/2021 at 5:20 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I bet you would be really disappointed then, huh?

I'd probably be laughing uncontrollably for a good hour, before begging you to make this a yearly tradition from that point on. Long as the dog is fine, of course.

... I'm helping.

Edited by Cysx

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You guys crack me up. How does every 3H thread devolve into this sort of this discussing that barely has anything to do with the main topic?

I did the math it takes 2580 total point to get to Dark Knight and 2640 for Gremory, so objectively Dark Knight is easier to get into. The other thing is even if you have say B+ or B in Riding, you still have around 90% chance to pass the cert anyway. Even though riding is useless for your mages until Dark Knight, if we look at Annette(who's the example I've been seeing) she learns Recover at C rank then Abaraxas at A rank, where we can all agree that offensive Faith spells are whatever. So the whole C -> A rank gap of training Faith can also be call useless.

10 hours ago, Anathaco said:

As for the standard point about dark Knight being harder to qualify for, I’m beginning to think when you say “more effort” you actually mean “more effort” as in “more physical effort generated by button inputs and more mental effort to decide when to set or tutor what goals”, rather than “more skill xp required” like the rest of us have been assuming. Because, admittedly, it feels a lot easier to get a Gremory when all you have to do is set reason and faith at the beginning of the game, then stick your finger up your butt and watch as the ranks happen… but as already pointed out that does not check out mathematically speaking.

I'm guessing that's the case as well. @Shadow Mir is quite the character.

The units that have to pick between Dark Knight and Gremory are:

  • Edelgard: Has a flaw in Faith, and stops learning stuff after B rank. (Gimmick, but whatever)
  • Dorothea: Has a budding talent in Faith, but stops learning stuff after C rank. Also a Riding bane, so I'd personally go Mortal Savant. (Please, I'm not trying to derail this even further)
  • Mercedes: Has a really good Faith list so Gremory.
  • Annette: Already explained, similar issues as Edelgard and Dorothea.
  • Lysithea: Faith becomes whatever after learning Warp after B rank, but she has the boon to raise the ranks quickly. She also has Mastermind so either is fine.
  • Marianne: After Silence at B rank Faith there isn't much going on. Similar to Dorothea, but has a Riding boon and Lance budding talent.
  • Constance: Similar to Annette, but since I'm mentioning DLC Dark Flier generally has more benefits. (Again, I'm not trying to derail)
  • Hapi: Similar to Lysithea, but has a boon in Riding instead of Faith.

So from what I'm seeing that's 2 units (Edelgard, Hapi) that should go Dark Knight, 2 for Gremory(Mercedes, Constance), and the rest can do whatever. However if we want to look at benefits, a bunch of these characters don't get much from getting A rank Faith, then Dark Knight has canto and +2 damage, which again is objectively better. Disregarding cavalry classes because of the speed penalty isn't a real concern in the context of this game. You aren't doubling many things as a mage outside of Fortress Knights in the endgame anyways.

I'm genuinely curious, what's really being argued here? From what @Anathaco said it's just laziness. 

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9 hours ago, Cysx said:

I'd probably be laughing uncontrollably for a good hour, before begging you to make this a yearly tradition from that point on. Long as the dog is fine, of course.

... I'm helping.

Oh I mean honestly same. If the original was meant to be a, as lenticular eloquently put it, rooster pattern, then your sense of humour would be fulfilled by farting noises anyways so it would be pretty bloody funny.

6 hours ago, LoneStar said:

You guys crack me up. How does every 3H thread devolve into this sort of this discussing that barely has anything to do with the main topic?

Riding is just flying, but in your dreams. It’s still relevant I swear.

Though I realise I don’t think I’ve actually commented on the main point of the thread, so…

Overall I don’t like Pegasi in this game except for darting blow. I’ve never had a Falcon Knight who actually stayed relevant until endgame, though wyverns tend to have the stats to keep themselves relevant, and dark fliers have their own unique utility so they’re basically always worth using.

 

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7 hours ago, LoneStar said:

…So from what I'm seeing that's 2 units (Edelgard, Hapi) that should go Dark Knight, 2 for Gremory(Mercedes, Constance), and the rest can do whatever. However if we want to look at benefits, a bunch of these characters don't get much from getting A rank Faith, then Dark Knight has canto and +2 damage, which again is objectively better. Disregarding cavalry classes because of the speed penalty isn't a real concern in the context of this game. You aren't doubling many things as a mage outside of Fortress Knights in the endgame anyways.

I mostly agree with your overall point, but you didn’t mention that Gremory gets x2 Magic Uses which is really useful for a few units, such as Dorothea for double Meteor, or Lysithea for double Warp (and Luna, Hades, and Dark Spikes all have very limited uses as well). I made Lysithea a Dark Knight in my first Maddening run, and really appreciated having the high Move and Canto, but those x2 spell uses is a really nice incentive for some units.

Annette on the other hand, I actually think is one of the units to benefit the least from x2 spell uses. Her spells generally have more uses already, and her Crest can help give her a few extra uses. Her Faith list isn’t very good anyway. I would definitely include Annette on the list of units that prefer Dark Knight.

Edited by Whisky

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20 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yeah, now that I think about it, I kinda think what I was hoping to say went over your head. For an easier to grasp example (and because I have been playing it a lot lately), the High Dragon weapons in Dragalia Lost. For how much work they are to get and improve, they end up not being that much of an improvement over the Chimeratech weapons, which are much easier to get and improve (note that for a High Dragon weapon to outclass a max-unbound Chimeratech, it needs 6 unbinds, which is a lot of work). Making matters worse for them, it's possible to skip straight to Agito weapons, which outclass them immediately, Going back to 3H, relative to Gremory, Dark Knight requires much more effort to qualify for... and the reward is extremely underwhelming despite this (2 extra damage does not exactly make a good case for Dark Knight). It's crap like this that leads me to have such a seething disdain for Dark Knight.

I'm pretty sure that I understand you perfectly. I just disagree with you. That said, if you remain convinced that you aren't getting your point across and want to try to reword, then using a game that I've never played as an analogy probably isn't the best approach.

To put my position as clearly and concisely as I can manage: in any situation, if theory and practice disagree with each other, then there's a problem with the theory. You have a theory that Dark Knight is difficult to qualify for; other people have practical experience that this is not the case. You have a theory that increased move and canto isn't actually helpful; other people have practical experience that it is. Your theory contradicts reality and therefore your theory is wrong.

I could add nuance to that, add caveats and addenda, issue examples, and so on and so forth, but that is the core of what I'm trying to say.

On 9/15/2021 at 8:23 AM, Shadow Mir said:

That doesn't help nearly as much in practice as it does in theory.

It also doesn't help that, earlier in the thread, you were talking as if you have practical experience, only to subsequently admit that you don't. That makes it increasingly difficult to take what you say at face value.

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21 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

and the reward is extremely underwhelming despite this (2 extra damage does not exactly make a good case for Dark Knight)

I don't understand how you keep missing the "2 extra move" and "canto" portions of the argument. Even if you don't accept that they're worth it, you must at least acknowledge that they're among the traits differentiating Dark Knight from Gremory.

9 hours ago, LoneStar said:

The units that have to pick between Dark Knight and Gremory are:

  • Edelgard: Has a flaw in Faith, and stops learning stuff after B rank. (Gimmick, but whatever)
  • Dorothea: Has a budding talent in Faith, but stops learning stuff after C rank. Also a Riding bane, so I'd personally go Mortal Savant. (Please, I'm not trying to derail this even further)
  • Mercedes: Has a really good Faith list so Gremory.
  • Annette: Already explained, similar issues as Edelgard and Dorothea.
  • Lysithea: Faith becomes whatever after learning Warp after B rank, but she has the boon to raise the ranks quickly. She also has Mastermind so either is fine.
  • Marianne: After Silence at B rank Faith there isn't much going on. Similar to Dorothea, but has a Riding boon and Lance budding talent.
  • Constance: Similar to Annette, but since I'm mentioning DLC Dark Flier generally has more benefits. (Again, I'm not trying to derail)
  • Hapi: Similar to Lysithea, but has a boon in Riding instead of Faith.

So from what I'm seeing that's 2 units (Edelgard, Hapi) that should go Dark Knight, 2 for Gremory(Mercedes, Constance), and the rest can do whatever. However if we want to look at benefits, a bunch of these characters don't get much from getting A rank Faith, then Dark Knight has canto and +2 damage, which again is objectively better. Disregarding cavalry classes because of the speed penalty isn't a real concern in the context of this game. You aren't doubling many things as a mage outside of Fortress Knights in the endgame anyways.

Re: Hapi, while Dark Knight is easier for her to certify in, I'd say there's a case for going ham on her Faith rank, since she gets Warp at A. So if you want her to provide Warp support, it makes sense to strive for Gremory. But if you already have a dedicated Warper, or just don't have much desire for the spell, then going Valkyrie -> Dark Knight is solid.

As for Dorothea and Annette, Gremory and Dark Knight could both be looked at as split paths from Warlock. Gremory maintains Warlock's doubled black magic count, adds more faith support count and a little more move, but loses 3 points of black magic damage. Dark Knight (and Mortal Savant) gains more movement and loses just 1 damage, but at a more serious cost to black magic count. Which one is better for either one likely depends on the player's needs, and for Dorothea, there's even a case to stay in Warlock (maximizing the damage of a 2-count Meteor and 8-count Thoron).

Regarding other magical women, we see Flayn and Manuela. Flayn has a Lance boon, but Riding bane, as well as a Reason budding talent. She can do just fine as a Bishop, but between the classes in consideration, Gremory is more achievable. As for Manuela, she has a Reason bane, so either of these classes will be a tough sell for her (despite the allure of Bolting) - that said, Gremory will probably be easier due to her baked-in Faith rank. But again, she could stay Bishop, or even go into a Swordfaire class for a Soulblade and Levin Sword build.

Oh, and there are a couple mostly-physical girls who should at least be considered on the magical side. Bernadetta has a Lance boon and Riding budding talent, and is neutral in Reason and Faith. So Dark Knight is more achievable to her - then again, she'll likely be striving for A-Faith to realize her "Pass-Rescue" niche, so maybe actually Holy Knight? Ingrid, similarly, is strong in Lances and Riding, and neutral in both magic types, and has no motive to move beyond B-Faith's Seraphim. Dark Knight is the clear choice here. At least, if you're doing magical builds with these units, which are generally sub-optimal (albeit in a fun way).

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7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ingrid, similarly, is strong in Lances and Riding, and neutral in both magic types, and has no motive to move beyond B-Faith's Seraphim. Dark Knight is the clear choice here. At least, if you're doing magical builds with these units, which are generally sub-optimal (albeit in a fun way).

Plus if you're serious about Dark Knight Ingrid, you can promote her to a Warlock to nab that 17 magic stat, as well as Paladin for the 17 strength. Plus you can and probably should have her spend time in the Valkyrie class so Uncanny Blow can help her accuracy issues in regards to her spells. Plus she can still use Physic and Seraphim to good effect and get a 5% increase to her strength and a 10% increase to her magic. Her speed would suffer slightly at -5% but considering how fast she is this is a small price to pay. Plus her defense, res, hp and charm also get some modest boosts as well.

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On 10/16/2021 at 7:48 PM, lenticular said:

I'm pretty sure that I understand you perfectly. I just disagree with you. That said, if you remain convinced that you aren't getting your point across and want to try to reword, then using a game that I've never played as an analogy probably isn't the best approach.

To put my position as clearly and concisely as I can manage: in any situation, if theory and practice disagree with each other, then there's a problem with the theory. You have a theory that Dark Knight is difficult to qualify for; other people have practical experience that this is not the case. You have a theory that increased move and canto isn't actually helpful; other people have practical experience that it is. Your theory contradicts reality and therefore your theory is wrong.

I could add nuance to that, add caveats and addenda, issue examples, and so on and so forth, but that is the core of what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, I didn't really think you hadn't played it, but nonetheless... I don't know about you, but I definitely would find it disappointing as hell to put a lot of work into getting something (a weapon, a class, etc.) only for it to fail to significantly outclass either what I've been using prior or another alternative that takes less work to get. This being said... Qualifying for Dark Knight might not be anywhere near as egregious as what I had mentioned, but in my book, it still has shades of this, given that 3H's nerfs to cavalry classes, along with the frequency of terrain that slows them and only them down, lead me to think it isn't really worth it...

On 10/16/2021 at 8:44 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't understand how you keep missing the "2 extra move" and "canto" portions of the argument. Even if you don't accept that they're worth it, you must at least acknowledge that they're among the traits differentiating Dark Knight from Gremory.

Because - breaking news - not all terrain is friendly to cavalry, with some even slowing cavalry and ONLY cavalry down, which blunts this.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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