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Magic in Fire Emblem


FailWood
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Which main series Fire Emblem game do you think handled Magic the best in terms of gameplay balance (where it's not overpowered or underpowered)?  Things like magical units, classes, tomes, magic weapons (Bolt Axe, Flame Lance, Levin Sword, etc.), status spells, and the magic triangle (which isn't in every game) are all factors here.

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I think Three Houses strikes a pretty good balance. The magic orientated characters are quite good and reliable killers, but by being in magic classes they miss out a lot of the advantages other classes have. The reduced movement also holds them back a bit, but the ability to increase range counter balances that and gives them more combat advantage.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I think Three Houses strikes a pretty good balance. The magic orientated characters are quite good and reliable killers, but by being in magic classes they miss out a lot of the advantages other classes have. The reduced movement also holds them back a bit, but the ability to increase range counter balances that and gives them more combat advantage.

It kind of depends if you want to turn them into a Dark or Holy Knight. Otherwise, it's the March Ring or turtling if you want them in the fight.

 

 

Edited by Armchair General
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Off the top of my head, I would eliminate Genealogy of the Holy War (wind magic in general was overpowered, while the other magic types were... not as useful, to say the least, with fire magic being the worst off), Binding Blade (light magic had it pretty bad compared to anima and dark, due to only being tied to Bishop, which was a promotion of a class that couldn't attack, and the result is that Aureola is unlikely to see use; this was probably why Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones came up with the monk class. Also, Nosferatu was pretty broke here), Blazing Blade (nerfed Nosferatu to the point of uselessness, but Luna is arguably rather broken; also, high rank tomes tend to be rather heavy, especially Fenrir [18 weight] and Gespenst, which has 20 weight), Sacred Stones (dark magic is pretty much useless here, between Luna being nerfed to the point of uselessness, the fact that the dark Sacred Twin is useless due to sharing the high weight that made Gespenst useless, with the fact that it's not effective against monsters adding insult to injury, and the fact that the only dark magic users - Ewan and Knoll - are pretty lousy in terms of combat), Path of Radiance (magic was severely downgraded, with light magic in particular being a joke; also, the magic weapons that weren't the Sonic Sword or the Runesword were pretty lousy, especially the Bolt Axe, which was pretty much useless because none of the axe users you got would have the magic to get any real damage out of it. Another aspect that hurt mages was that Path of Radiance changed AS to key off of Strength, which most mages didn't have much of), Radiant Dawn (magic is pretty much at its lowest point in this game, between weak tomes and the fact that enemy units actually have existent resistance for the most part; also, the mages in this game are pretty slow and have low speed caps), Awakening (magic was pretty much at its best here), and Fates (most of the magic units in the game are pretty bad, and Dark Mage and Sorcerer were severely downgraded) from this discussion. This leaves Shadow Dragon, New Mystery, Shadows of Valentia and Three Houses.

3 hours ago, Armchair General said:

It kind of depends if you want to turn them into a Dark or Holy Knight. Otherwise, it's the March Ring or turtling if you want them in the fight.

Honestly, I find the mounted mage classes in 3H (that aren't DLC) to be lackluster, especially Holy Knight, which ends up doing nothing better than the other mage classes.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think Three Houses strikes a pretty good balance. The magic orientated characters are quite good and reliable killers, but by being in magic classes they miss out a lot of the advantages other classes have. The reduced movement also holds them back a bit, but the ability to increase range counter balances that and gives them more combat advantage.

I'm not sure what to think about 3H and magic, other than the fact that in terms of mages, it has a clear bias towards females. Most of the better magic classes are female-exclusive, while the two male-exclusive magic classes are pretty bad, for how much of a hassle getting the item needed for them is. Also, only one unit gets any real benefit from them, and he's exclusive to one route.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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54 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm not sure what to think about 3H and magic, other than the fact that in terms of mages, it has a clear bias towards females. Most of the better magic classes are female-exclusive, while the two male-exclusive magic classes are pretty bad, for how much of a hassle getting the item needed for them is. Also, only one unit gets any real benefit from them, and he's exclusive to one route.

I don't know why they bothered including Dark Mage and Dark Bishop, let alone making them male-exclusive (or having any gender-exclusive classes at all after Fates did away with it).  As you say, Hubert is the only unit who can use them to their fullest potential, and he's locked to one route.

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We're excluding Staves?  Ok.

 

FE 1-3:  I have no experience with these, so I got nothing.

 

FE 4:  Wind = Light > Thunder > Fire.  Unbalanced as all hell.  Fire is the worst, Thunder is average, and Wind/Light are great, Wind due to weighing at least 5 less than the other types whiles having the same Might, and Light due to owning the Magic Trinity.

 

FE 5:  Wind = Light > Thunder > Dark > Fire.  Outside of Personal tomes, nothing is absurd.  Fire is still bad, Thunder is slightly better, Wind is even better given its' Might got buffed, Dark is near useless, and Light now has Nosferatu, so...  Light and Wind are again the best.

On the Magic Weapon front, only Swords exist.  The Anima Magic-Swords are identical except for a +5 Buff to Mag (Fire), Skl (Thunder) and Spd (Wind), thus Wind >= Fire > Thunder.  The other 2 Magic-Swords are Personal Weapons, the Light Brand (+10 Luc, use as an Item to heal all HP) and the Earth Sword (Nosferatu).

 

FE 6:  Anima > Dark > Light.  Light is pretty bad, Dark has Nosferatu and basically nothing else, and Anima is... existent, I guess.  Oh, and the Light Brand.  It's pretty bad.

 

FE 7:  Anima >= Dark > Light.  Anima is pretty standard, Dark has Luna (Null Res + Killer) and Nosferatu (which was nerfed), Light is still bad.  The Light Brand is slightly better, but it halves your Str when fighting at range.

 

FE 8:  Anima > Light > Dark.  Anima still exists, Dark has lost OP Luna (-45 Hit, -10 Crt), and Light is still bad... except now Bishop has Slayer, which makes Light very strong latter in the game.

Sacred Stones is the only GBA game to have more than 1 Magic-Sword:  Runesword > Wind Sword > Light Brand.  Runesword has Nosferatu, Wind Sword is effective vs Flyers, and Light Brand is still Vanilla as ever.

 

FE 9:  Thunder > Wind > Fire > Light.  The Anima Magics are quite same-y, but I guess that Thunder is the best?  It's the strongest and the only one to have a usable S-Rank tome.  Light is near useless, as only Bishop can use it, and you only get Rhys to use them, and he's... not good.

Path of Radiance also has more than one Magic Sword:  Runesword and Sonic Sword.  Neither are great, given most Swordies have negligible magic.  I'd say the Runesword is better, but it's also extremely heavy.  The Sonic Sword is effective vs Flyers, but effective damage is only Might x2, so...

 

FE 10:  Fire > Wind > Light > Dark > Thunder.  Thunder is strictly bad, Fire and Wind are merely Ok, Light is also Ok but it's wielders are worse, and Dark is too limited to be anything but existent.  Also, there are no Magic Weapons.  ...  ...  What are you talking about, cards?  You mean glorified bullions?

 

FE 11 & 12:  All magic is under 1 category and the Levin Sword is merely there, so there's not to much to talk about.

 

FE 13:  Dark > Wind > Anima.  Wind is effective vs Flyers, Fire and Thunder are the same, Dark has Nosferatu, and Light is only 1 tome (albeit a good one).  The Levin Sword, Shock Stick and Bolt Axe are of niche use.

 

FE 14:  Fates had a thing for 'balance' so Magic is very same-y.  I'd say that Hoshidian Magic (Scrolls) is generally better than Nohr's variant (Tomes), if only due to their more varied effects.  Magic Weapons are jokes in Fates.

 

FE 15:  Outside of Seraphim and Excalibur, none of Echoes'  Magics are better than the others.  The Levin Sword is the only Jagen Weapon in the series.

 

FE 16:  Only Siege and Dark Magic is of note in TH.  Kind of hard to judge what's good or not given the amount of variety involved between the character's spell lists and stats.

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Of the games I’ve played:

FE7: I like magic in this game. Magic oriented characters are pretty good in my experience. I don’t think I’ve ever actually taken the magic triangle into account though, so there’s that problem. Magic to me felt kinda samey with the exception of dark magic, but I think it was solid.

FE8: honestly haven’t finished it and barely touched magic so far so can’t really comment.

FE11: again haven’t finished it and haven’t played in a while but I remember mages all being pretty good on account of non-existent enemy res. Was on H3 so maybe that changes on higher difficulties. Honestly not a lot to say lol.

FE13: Can’t really say much that hasn’t already been said, magic felt a bit too dominant in this one.

FE14: Having not played Conquest my experience is a little skewed, but I liked it in Birthright (scrolls and their stat boosts were fun to use, including them as part of the weapon triangle was a decision I personally enjoyed, and while I haven’t used Orochi a whole lot I do like Hayato). I haven’t done much with it in revelations.

FE15: Great early game, really falls off later on. Magic being locked to 4/5 move classes really hurts, even if they can boost their range with a mage ring. The fact that they have two class tiers means that they end up being stuck in their first tier for ages because of the way XP gains work, which also contributes to the feeling of them falling off. And the promotion bonuses once they finally get there feel a bit lacklustre. Keeping a few mages around for enemy barons/fiends is a good idea, since those guys can be real bastards to kill otherwise, but most of your combat will sadly be relegated to units who can move further. Introducing the concept of personal spell lists was a cool idea though, and leads to some fun gameplay decisions (particularly for the mercs if you loop them since some of them learn some pretty cool spells. I also like the HP system of casting magic, more than limited use tomes or itemless spell charges like in 3H. There aren’t a lot of magic combat arts, and the good ones like Flamberge come really really late. If they had 3 tiers like other classes and actually stayed relevant throughout the game I’d say this is probably one of the best incarnations of magic. As is though, the good concepts that Echoes introduced were mostly refined in…

FE16: Personal spell lists are now given to everybody to give every unit their own identity as a mage. The concept that was tested with the mercs of echoes having pretty good spell lists comes back with characters like Hilda, Bernadetta, etc, who learn high value spells despite not really being built for magic classes. Magic combat arts are way more prevalent since they’re attached to characters instead of weapons, giving them the opportunity to come way earlier than just “maybe in the postgame”. Magic weapons are also back- plus the introduction of Crusher and Blutgang as legendary magic weapons. It all results in a lot of variety for how you can build your mages, leading to some powerful combinations while not making them super busted. The biggest issue is obviously the gender locking of all the good magic classes- and to an extent the fact that the best spell lists and magic stat lines are mostly on females anyway, which kinda goes against the rest of the systems the game had in place. Still probably my favourite magic system and the one I’d argue was handled the best.

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2 hours ago, FailWood said:

You forgot Thracia, unless you haven't played it yet.

Thracia's magic balance is pretty bad too; wind magic is still better than the other types, though that's partly because you get two broke personal wind tomes, and Blizzard can inflict sleep. On the flipside, dark magic is just bad. Only two dark tomes are usable by the player, with everything else either being unusable or turning into Fenrir if taken. What's worse, the lightest dark tome has 12 weight. In a game where weight is directly subtracted from speed (for mages, anyway).

55 minutes ago, Ouzyxol said:

FE 10:  Fire > Wind > Light > Dark > Thunder.  Thunder is strictly bad, Fire and Wind are merely Ok, Light is also Ok but it's wielders are worse, and Dark is too limited to be anything but existent.  Also, there are no Magic Weapons.  ...  ...  What are you talking about, cards?  You mean glorified bullions?

I would switch Thunder and Dark, because dark magic has nothing going for it. At least Rexbolt is useful against one of the hardest bosses in the game.

55 minutes ago, Ouzyxol said:

FE 5:  Wind = Light > Thunder > Dark > Fire.  Outside of Personal tomes, nothing is absurd.  Fire is still bad, Thunder is slightly better, Wind is even better given its' Might got buffed, Dark is near useless, and Light now has Nosferatu, so...  Light and Wind are again the best.

I would disagree with Dark > Fire, because while fire is pretty bad, it can't be worse than having your lightest tome having 12 weight...

Edited by Shadow Mir
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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

(He hasn't, though he'll talk like he has unless directly asked).

Hasn't forgotten, or hasn't played?  If the latter, then that would make me curious about other games.

8 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

We're excluding Staves?

No, I did mention status spells at the start.  I guess I didn't make it clear enough to make sure it along with healing and other support magic were included in this topic.  My bad.

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30 minutes ago, FailWood said:

Hasn't forgotten, or hasn't played?  If the latter, then that would make me curious about other games.

No, I did mention status spells at the start.  I guess I didn't make it clear enough to make sure it along with healing and other support magic were included in this topic.  My bad.

Hasn't played. Mir hasn't played most games in the series yet presents himself as an expert on their quality, with the typical judgement being that they're so bad as to be unplayable (even though he has never even tried).

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Hasn't played. Mir hasn't played most games in the series yet presents himself as an expert on their quality, with the typical judgement being that they're so bad as to be unplayable (even though he has never even tried)

Sure fooled me then, but that's nothing new.

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On 8/28/2021 at 2:46 PM, FailWood said:

Which main series Fire Emblem game do you think handled Magic the best in terms of gameplay balance (where it's not overpowered or underpowered)?  Things like magical units, classes, tomes, magic weapons (Bolt Axe, Flame Lance, Levin Sword, etc.), status spells, and the magic triangle (which isn't in every game) are all factors here.

I guess in my experience FE7 was pretty solid but also that game was kinda easy, so it could get away with having literally only a single Bolting Tome. (I'd honestly have more in a Remake, but still have only a single Bolting Tome on Hard, I'm not a big fan of weapons/items literally only showing up once.)

Three Houses: Don't like the Magic system, it removes resource management alot, means we can't get powerful spells early on for the most part (Magic Jaigen that starts with Bolting when?)  and just in general kinda actually makes Physical weapons feel a bit sub-optimal at times, I could hit a guy with a sword, but then I have to use in-game resources to repair it eventually, I don't need to do that with magic. (Unarmed Combat is intentionally somewhat weak so you can only really finish off weak enemies safely without endangering yourself a bit or using up weapon durability, at least compared to magic.)

I can also cheese grind Supports by spamming Ward.

FE6: Mostly fine like FE7 but the enemy staff users A: are a pain to tell what their "True" range are and B: have absurdly high stats to the point where it's borderline cheating compared to your own staff users. (And chapters where you spawn in range of enemy staff users with no real way to avoid getting hit by them without knowing about the Fae exploit.)

Awakening: It's Awakening, do I even need to elaborate on how magic is absurdly broken in that game? Sure I can get the game I don't like over faster by Robin Emblem but that's not exactly a positive statement for how balanced Magic is.

Echoes: Magic at least takes away Health so it feels less exploitable than 3H and I love Invoke but I do honestly generally prefer having to manage magic same as my weapons.

 

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This isn't easy.

Jugdral - On one hand, there's generic tomes, which are eh.  On the other hand, there's Forseti.  I liked their selection of magic swords, since it gave Ethlyn some semblance of offense.

Elibe pt. 1 - Eclipse OP, walls don't stand a chance.  Dark magic wasn't too hot, but then again, Niime's niche was being a good staffbot.  Light magic required a promoted class.
Elibe pt. 2 - Cheesable thanks to Luna crits.  Also cheesable thanks to Pent being able to take a hit while being a good staffbot.

Magvel - It's "balanced", if we ignore all the unintended things.  Light magic has a niche for being able to counter monster magic, anima's a good bread-and-butter, and the dark-focused class has minions instead of solely relying on dark magic.  Magic swords aren't completely useless thanks to infinite stat boosters in postgame.

Tellius pt. 1 - What's a dark mage?  Flame Lance was cool, though.
Tellius pt. 2 - I didn't like the magic triangle within the magic triangle, and Florete wasn't magical.  Micaiah being a light mage was nifty.

Archanea remake pt. 1 - Infinite-range warp, yeah.
Archanea remake pt. 2 - Warp was removed from a certain mode, but dancer-in-a-staff wasn't.  Silence was pretty amusing in this iteration, as it hit every single magic class, not just a single enemy.

Ylisse - Like Magvel, capping stats wasn't a pipe dream.  Unlike most games, the hardest-hitting magic could be farmed with DLC.  Not sure if that's necessarily balanced, but it meant that I could be an idiot with Forseti when the situation called for it!

Fates - And magic is Just Another Weapon Type that happens to hit Res.  Useful in theory, but yumis boosted Res.

Valentia remake - Glue a staffbot to a mage, and they're both set.  I used magic's HP drain to recruit Delthea.

Fodlan - Innate magic means that I didn't feel like I had to save my Rescue staff for an emergency.  If the gender divide regarding magic classes wasn't so stark, I'd be more in favor of this magic system.

Heroes - LOL.

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

and Florete wasn't magical

Is Florete's desceiption really read that way? 

I read it as "it uses magic as in a form of energy, not the actual magic stat.

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Micaiah being a light mage was nifty.

Dark Magic MC when?

 

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Ylisse - Like Magvel, capping stats wasn't a pipe dream.  Unlike most games, the hardest-hitting magic could be farmed with DLC.  Not sure if that's necessarily balanced, but it meant that I could be an idiot with Forseti when the situation called for it!

I can't help but enjoy myself watching Robin tank everything with the Book of Naga while having Armsthrift.  Grinded many Limit Breaker manuals doing that.

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This topic feels way too varied to answe properly. But I'm gonna go with my gut and say FE7. Most enemies do worse in Resistance than Defense, and having 1~2 range is always welcome in an enemy-phase-heavy game. That said, no magic unit is genuinely overpowered (save for Pent and Athos, who join late and later respectively), and the only mounted magic user (Priscilla) takes a while to enter into that role. Longer-range spells are a rarity, and magic as a whole doesn't get to ignore terrain boosts. Support staves are limited (beyond Heal and Mend), but each has their uses without breaking the game.

In summary, FE7 may just be where magic is at its most boring. But as a result, it's also where magic is neither dominant nor irrelevant. 

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On 8/29/2021 at 12:41 AM, Shadow Mir said:

I would switch Thunder and Dark, because dark magic has nothing going for it. At least Rexbolt is useful against one of the hardest bosses in the game.

Ah yes, Rexbolt, Ilyana's prf SS-Rank weapon.  Good joke friend!

But seriously, you are aware she gets one-shot by Dheginsea while having capped HP and Def (75 Atk vs 69 Physical bulk), right?  And that she only deals 29 damage to him (12*3 Weapon Might + 39 Capped Magic = 75 Atk.  75 Atk - 46 Res = 29 Damage), out of his 100 HP?  And that she will not double (30 Spd Cap vs 30 Spd), and is in danger of being doubled if she falls more than 2 points shy of her 29 Spd average at 20/20/20?

Mages in RD are not an offensive threat.  Also, I apologize if I come off as hyper-aggressive.

On 8/29/2021 at 12:41 AM, Shadow Mir said:

I would disagree with Dark > Fire, because while fire is pretty bad, it can't be worse than having your lightest tome having 12 weight...

Shoot!  I forgot about that.  You can tell it's been a while since I played Thracia last.

21 hours ago, FailWood said:

No, I did mention status spells at the start.  I guess I didn't make it clear enough to make sure it along with healing and other support magic were included in this topic.  My bad.

Ah, I see.  Well, lets see if I can get through this without the storm dropping my power or internet.

 

FE 1-3:  again, no experience, so I've got nothing.

FE 4:  Some decent utility.  All ranged staves have 1-10 range, and the list of ranged staves:  Physic, Fortify, Restore, Rescue, Sleep, Silence, and Berserk.  Status staves always hit, but require a target to have less Res than the wielder has Mag.  Silence has 3 uses and costs 10K per use, and the other two have use and cost 30K a pop. Berserk is also locked to a Substitute unit.  The S-rank staff - Valkyrie - is a repairable Resurrection staff...  You judge for yourself how good/bad that is.

FE 5:  was Kaga on drugs when he got to Thracia's Staves?  Infinite range staves, Warp, Rescue and (shudder) Rewarp, and you can get multiple copies of each!?  The prf staves are also pretty good, Hammerne is great as always, Thief has some real potential, Unlock can swipe chests from across the map and you can get more copies, and Kia is pretty necessary vs Veld.

FE 6-8:  Got to be real honest, the GBA staves are mostly undifferentiated.  Ranges vary from 1 - Mag to 1 - Mag/2.  FE 6 & 7 don't have S-rank staves, and FE 8 has Latona, which is an map-wide full heal and restore with 3 uses, which is quite good.

FE 9:  Also same-y.  Interestingly Torch in PoR functions like the Torch item and not the Torch staff.  Curiously, the Warp and Berserk staves exist in the game's code, but are unused in game.  The Ashera Staff is a headache to get in PoR, but is still good.

FE 10:  Berserk doesn't exist, Sleep and Silence got El- versions with higher accuracy and 30 range, and RD has two SS-rank staves:  Matrona (3 use Single target full heal and maxes Biorhythm) and the Ashera Staff (locked to a second playthrough's last map, 3 use map-wide full heal and restore).  ...  But staves in RD aren't great, because to use them, you have to equip them, precluding any chance of enemy-phase, unless you want to spend another unit's turn to trade a tome around.  Add in the fact that Magic users aren't good in RD, and the result isn't pretty.

FE 11:  not 1, not 2, but 4 Warps each with 7 uses and a 12 use Hammerne.  Do I really need to explain?

FE 12:  Hammerne got nerfed down to 3 uses, Rescue and Thief are back with 2 copies each, Warp is down to 2 copies but retains its' absurd 7 uses, and a new staff:  Anew.  3 use, infinite range, 2 copies.  It's a long ranged Dance.  I need go no further.

FE 13:  Staves are extremely barebones in Awakening.  Healing, Rescue, Ward and Hammerne. That's it.

FE 14:  Healing staves got nerfed for no reason in Fates, going from healing (X + Mag/2) to healing (X + Mag/3).  Rods (Hoshidian Staves) have higher range (+1 basic, +3 to ranged), Rescue, Silence, and the accursed Hexing Rod, while Staves have better healing abilities, Freeze, Enfeeble, Entrap, and the too limited Bifrost.  All the Status staves are very limited, and the targets you'd like to use them on are often immune to their effects...  So neither side has an advantage between Hoshido and Nohr.  I also still wonder why there is no Restore in Fates.

FE 15:  White Magic is not great in SoV.  Apart from Summons, you have the usual healing spell, Warp, Rescue, Rewarp, Expel, Ward, Renew, Restore, Freeze, Entrap, and Silence.  I'm not going to list out who learns what, SF already has pages for that.

Restore, Freeze, Entrap, & Silence has 1 - Mag/4 range, so they're quite limited.  Restore is also AoE, so it's pretty decent.  Warp & Rescue have 1 - Mag/2 range, so that's not great in a game with such low stats.  Expel has been nerfed from Gaiden:  instead of insta-killing all but 2 monsters on the map, it has a 65% chance to banish non-promoted monsters with Mag/2 tiles of the caster.  So yeah, it's fallen dramatically, even to the point of being obsolete when the Mogalls show up.

FE 16:  White Magic now has two categories, Damaging and supportive.  Nosferatu is to heavy to be of offensive use, Seraphim is Ok, while Aura and Abraxas are lame.  Fortify and Restore are 1 - Mag/4 AoE, which is better here than in SoV, because stats are far higher.  Rescue and Warp are also 1 - Mag/4 range, and are useful as ever.  Silence has a fixed 3 - 10 range and is brutally accurate.  And Ward is free Exp.

Small note:  I've seen Ward proc Constance's Crest of Noa, which should only work on Reason magic.  Not sure why, and haven't tested it with other character/crests.

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5 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

Ah yes, Rexbolt, Ilyana's prf SS-Rank weapon.  Good joke friend!

But seriously, you are aware she gets one-shot by Dheginsea while having capped HP and Def (75 Atk vs 69 Physical bulk), right?  And that she only deals 29 damage to him (12*3 Weapon Might + 39 Capped Magic = 75 Atk.  75 Atk - 46 Res = 29 Damage), out of his 100 HP?  And that she will not double (30 Spd Cap vs 30 Spd), and is in danger of being doubled if she falls more than 2 points shy of her 29 Spd average at 20/20/20?

Mages in RD are not an offensive threat.  Also, I apologize if I come off as hyper-aggressive.

There are cover tiles nearby, which make that survivable (because they give a whopping 10 defense). Also, this IS Radiant Dawn we're talking about, which means capping stats is not only possible, but expected... Anyways, I already admitted that mages were pretty much at their worst in Radiant Dawn. This being said, I'd still consider Thunder better than Dark, because aside from Dark being a second run only thing (and its only users coming really late, with one of those coming in the very last part of endgame - and even if you wanted to have him use the SS dark tome, you'd have to bring the other, who starts underleveled, to the tower), it at least has a niche, as opposed to Dark doing nothing of note (also, the SS rank dark tome is really inaccurate compared to the other SS tomes, and not nearly strong enough to make up for it; 3 might over Rexaura is nowhere near enough to justify a rather severe 35 accuracy drop, especially when the only things you're using it on have 135 avoid).

5 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

FE 6-8:  Got to be real honest, the GBA staves are mostly undifferentiated.  Ranges vary from 1 - Mag to 1 - Mag/2.  FE 6 & 7 don't have S-rank staves, and FE 8 has Latona, which is an map-wide full heal and restore with 3 uses, which is quite good.

The Saint's Staff in Binding Blade is S rank (and comes with someone who can use it off the bat). As Fortify is limited to trial maps in that game, this makes it the only method of ranged healing that isn't Physic. Latona, on the other hand, I never saw as worth it, because status effects are pretty rare by the time it's relevant, and when Fortify is also available, it's hard to justify its use.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

There are cover tiles nearby, which make that survivable (because they give a whopping 10 defense). Also, this IS Radiant Dawn we're talking about, which means capping stats is not only possible, but expected... Anyways, I already admitted that mages were pretty much at their worst in Radiant Dawn. This being said, I'd still consider Thunder better than Dark, because aside from Dark being a second run only thing (and its only users coming really late, with one of those coming in the very last part of endgame - and even if you wanted to have him use the SS dark tome, you'd have to bring the other, who starts underleveled, to the tower), it at least has a niche, as opposed to Dark doing nothing of note (also, the SS rank dark tome is really inaccurate compared to the other SS tomes, and not nearly strong enough to make up for it; 3 might over Rexaura is nowhere near enough to justify a rather severe 35 accuracy drop, especially when the only things you're using it on have 135 avoid).

It's personal preference at this point.  I prefer Dark, and you Thunder.  We both have our reasons for that. Mine are as follows:

All magics (excluding staves and maybe Siege tomes) are worth nil for the Endgame parts 2-5 (especially 4 & 5) of RD.  Thunder is just bad, as it's only uses are vs Wyverns and Red Dragons, the former you don't see a whole lot of and you don't get the high-tier Thunders in time to fight, and the latter only appear in one chapter and are dealt with almost as easily with any other magic type.  At least Dark has a bit of power behind it compared to Thunder, which got nerfed into being the second weakest and inaccurate magic in exchange for keeping a small amount of Crit.

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The Saint's Staff in Binding Blade is S rank (and comes with someone who can use it off the bat). As Fortify is limited to trial maps in that game, this makes it the only method of ranged healing that isn't Physic. Latona, on the other hand, I never saw as worth it, because status effects are pretty rare by the time it's relevant, and when Fortify is also available, it's hard to justify its use.

Forgot about the Saint's Staff, thanks.

Latona is of some usage, an infinite range full heal and status clear (as opposed to Fortify's limited range & healing), for Fomortiis' Nightmare and the Creature Campaign's Stone Gorgons.

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13 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

It's personal preference at this point.  I prefer Dark, and you Thunder.  We both have our reasons for that. Mine are as follows:

All magics (excluding staves and maybe Siege tomes) are worth nil for the Endgame parts 2-5 (especially 4 & 5) of RD.  Thunder is just bad, as it's only uses are vs Wyverns and Red Dragons, the former you don't see a whole lot of and you don't get the high-tier Thunders in time to fight, and the latter only appear in one chapter and are dealt with almost as easily with any other magic type.  At least Dark has a bit of power behind it compared to Thunder, which got nerfed into being the second weakest and inaccurate magic in exchange for keeping a small amount of Crit.

It's not about preference so much as it is about the facts, as I see it. The fact is, both of the dark magic users come really late in the game, with one being egregiously underleveled, and the other only being available for the last part of the endgame (also, if you wanted him to use a blessed dark tome, you'd have to bring the other to the tower anyway, which is a hard sell when he doesn't bring anything of note to the table - and even if you did, the ultimate dark tome is underpowered to the point it isn't worth it).

13 hours ago, Ouzyxol said:

Latona is of some usage, an infinite range full heal and status clear (as opposed to Fortify's limited range & healing), for Fomortiis' Nightmare and the Creature Campaign's Stone Gorgons.

Okay, serious question here. Have you ever seen Fomortiis use Nightmare? Because I haven't. And frankly, "useful if Fomortiis uses Nightmare, pretty much useless otherwise" doesn't sound like the mark of something that is useful, especially when being able to use it comes at the cost of being able to get an S rank that's actually useful. Also, with the healing formula being what it is in the GBA games, I'd generally find one use of Fortify enough if multiple units were seriously injured.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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17 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It's not about preference so much as it is about the facts, as I see it. The fact is, both of the dark magic users come really late in the game, with one being egregiously underleveled, and the other only being available for the last part of the endgame (also, if you wanted him to use a blessed dark tome, you'd have to bring the other to the tower anyway, which is a hard sell when he doesn't bring anything of note to the table - and even if you did, the ultimate dark tome is underpowered to the point it isn't worth it).

1)  Ilyana is the primary user of Thunder, with the only serious competition being Soren.  The former isn't worth getting to Archsage (or even just Thunder Sage), while the latter cannot use the Rexbolt.

2)  Who said anything about blessing the Balberith?  It's anti-mook at best.  It's useless against the last two bosses, and is near useless against the third to last.  Compared to Thunder, which is even worse but is of limited use against half of the enemies in the third to last.

As I see it, Dark is bad.  It's just that Thunder is worse in my eyes.

18 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay, serious question here. Have you ever seen Fomortiis use Nightmare? Because I haven't. And frankly, "useful if Fomortiis uses Nightmare, pretty much useless otherwise" doesn't sound like the mark of something that is useful, especially when being able to use it comes at the cost of being able to get an S rank that's actually useful. Also, with the healing formula being what it is in the GBA games, I'd generally find one use of Fortify enough if multiple units were seriously injured.

1)  It depends on how many units are within its' range.  From what I recall, he'll use it if A. he can't kill someone and B. you have 8 or more units that would be hit by it.

2)  I never said it was the be all, end all of staves, just that it had its' uses.

3)  It's still strictly better than Fortify.  If not for healing, then for an AoE Restore and infinite range.

13 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I think that out of all the games I've played, Radiant Dawn handled it best.

Aside from Thunder's case, I'd agree with that.

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