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This is something that I noticed was scattered throughout topic threads that was derailed for a number of reasons (and I can imagine this one going to be derailed as well). But this is something I've wanted to turn into a full blown discussion for a while. Though I can understand if we're going to sound like broken records at this point but I think it's still fun worth discussing. But here goes:

 

The debate about is Paladin still worth using over Wyvern Lord has been going on for awhile and while I can see where most people would pick Wyvern Lord over Paladin, I would like to at least attempt to point out some niches Paladins have over Wyvern Lords. First off, between the two, Paladins are easier to get into rather than Wyvern Lord. Wyvern Lords of course have a higher investment required but a lot of the times it is worth it. But let's do a quick comparison and highlight their pros and cons. This will also factor in the combat arts Swift Strikes and Vengeance in particular since these two tend to the most used by end game. I can sometimes see Tempest Lance or Knightkneeler used throughout the game, especially in the beginning. I'll point out some pros and cons for the both of them. If I am missing something or you disagree, please respectfully comment down below.

 

Paladin

Pros

  • Low-Mid Investment (Lance rank B and Riding rank B required for 100% certification)
  • Solid growths across the board though the spread in growths are mostly minor
  • Lancefaire at level 20 for both male and female units
  • 8 move, can dismount and Canto
  • Access to infantry, horseback, heavy armored, and flying battalions which tends to offer better overall stats
  • Can be paired up with follow up, healing and guard Adjutants

Cons

  • While growths are still solid the glaring negative is -10% in speed
  • Terrain Resist is too situational to be useful
  • Hates traversing through sand and thickets as it hampered their movement thus you're forced to dismount if you want slightly better move
  • Lower strength growth and stat modifier than Wyvern Lord
  • It's mastery Aegis while can be helpful at times, it's proc is dependent on your Dex stat which isn't always consistent. So it is a cautious con at best

 

Wyvern Lord

Pros

  • Great growths in HP, Strength and Speed in particular
  • Axefaire at level 20 as a Wyvern Rider onwards
  • Avoid +10 combines beautifully with Alert Stance and it's plus variant
  • 8 move, can dismount and Canto
  • Flight allows them to fly over all terrain maximizing the support from Stride, Rescue and Warp for insane movement and positioning
  • Higher strength growth and modifier than Paladin
  • It's mastery Defiant Crit while some don't like it because of it's requirement, but can be devastatingly powerful when knowing how to manage low HP

Cons

  • High investment needed (Lance rank at C, Axe and Flying rank at A is required for 100% certification)
  • Can only access flying battalions which only a couple off hand offers good stat buffs
  • Can only be paired with Follow up adjutants
  • Has to dismount in order to take advantage of Heal/Avoid tiles. 
  • While it is minor con, they are noticeably slower than Falcon Knights in terms of speed growth.

 

There are probably more you guys can think of than me but these are the things that come to mind for me. One thing I can also point out, while Paladins can also take advantage of the Stride and others, buildings and in some cases terrain can still slow them down. Especially when there are enemies in the way. The exception to the rule is if you're using Pass with Bernadetta and/or Anna and they are in the Cavalier/Paladin classes so they can zip right pass them. Pass while not required on any end game set can be a fun ability to take advantage of, couple that with dancing and on a non crimson flower route, dance of the goddess (Blue Lions Dancer and Opera Company) you can pull off a lot of neat strategies if you're looking to either clear as many enemies as you can or if you're doing a LTC run.

 

When it comes to the combat arts Swift Strikes and Vengeance, this is where it gets interesting. The paladin class offers a +2 strength modifier while wyvern lord offers +4 in strength, but paladin gains Lancefaire which allows them a +5 attack when using lances so those combat arts among other lance combat arts gets the maximum damage. Let's say that we are using the Cichol Wyvern Co. Battalion in this example. If were to do the math this can look like this:

Strength +2 ability from the Fighter Class

Strength +2 as a stat modifier for Paladin

Death Blow (+6 in attack)

Lancefaire (+5 in attack with lances)

Cichol Wyvern Co (+7 in attack when max level)

+3 might from a unit they share a special bond with i.e Seteth with Flayn

 

Now this looks great as a Paladin. As a Wyvern Lord though, since they only have a strength +4 as a class modifier they won't maximize the damage out with this set up but for some it doesn't really make that much of a difference. Seteth and Sylvain are the two of the three swift strike users that can fully maximize their damage thanks to supports. Sylvain can go with either Ingrid or Felix, or even both (I think they can stack but don't quote me on it) so he would be the benefit the most out of getting that additional +3 might. Especially if he is next to Ingrid thanks to his Philanderer ability where he'll get another +2 attack. Ferdinand gets the short end of the stick because he only gets a special bond support with Lorenz and it only ends at support rank B. While +2 Might is still good, you have to get Lorenz in position where not everyone really wants to Lorenz just for that purpose. Though at least Lorenz is usable on maddening but far less useful compared to those three.

Vengeance can be used with Bernadetta, Dedue and Cyril and that has a number of factors going into which of the three is the best vengeance user. Bernie has the advantage over the two of them since she bores a crest and has Persecution Complex which grants a +5 attack when under 100% HP. It's an amazing ability for sure but she is much more frail so she needs a guard adjutant and or the blessing gambit activated. Dedue is the bulkiest and has a better strength growth but has a bane in riding so it'll be a slow grind before he can jump into Paladin. Dedue also has a special bond with Dimitri so that plus 3 might can be helpful for sure. Cyril can potentially reach better stats among the two of them but requires some baby sitting himself since his bases aren't the greatest starting out. Also fun fact: the Azure Moon route is the only route where you can have 3 vengeance users while on a non Crimson Flower route you can have all 3 swift strike users.

There are other combat arts that we can go into like Frozen Lance or Shatter Slash that can do along with other abilities pending on which character you're using but honestly that will take some effort but can be worth using as well. Frozen Lance more so if you're going down the magic route.

 

What do you guys think? Do you still prefer Wyvern Lord over Paladin anyways? Have you given the Paladin class a shot since you like to maximize the swift strikes/vengeance damage? Was it worth the time and investment to reach these classes? By all means comment here. 

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A few thoughts, in no particular order:

  • Definitely don't discount Frozen Lance, which does enough damage to be relevant throughout the whole game. Not as high a ceiling as Swift Strikes or Vengeance, but it's still very much legit. The three lance relic combat arts (Atrocity, Burning Quake, Ruined Sky) are also great.
  • I find it hard to think of many circumstances where I'd put a female lance (er, Bernadetta, Ingrid, Marianne) user into Wyvern Lord, given that Falcon Knight is also an option, will have a higher damage output, and are easier for lance users to get into.
  • Speed is largely (though not entirely) irrelevent for Swift Strike users and almost entirely irrelevent for Vengeance users, especially if they're on a mounted class with Canto. You don't need to double if you're using a combat art, and it doesn't matter if you would get doubled if you're killing your enemy before they even get a chance to fight back at all. And then you Canto out of range to make sure you're not getting hit on enemy phase. It can still be useful occasionally, but I'm not about to care about the -10% speed growth from Paladin.
  • I still think that Defiant Crit is a win-more ability at best.
  • Although it can be easily mitigated with dismounting, weakness to bows is a definite con for flying classes, since enemy archers are far more common than enemy horseslayers.
  • Riding is a lot easier for male units to train than flight, since they can start getting it through combat at level 10, whereas flying can only be picked up through tutoring/seminars/etc. until level 20.
  • When optimising damage output, all that really matters is whether you get the kill or not. If a paladin does 6 more damage with Swift Strikes than a Wyvern Lord, then that usually only really matters if the break point for the kill is within that 6 point range. Yeah, sometimes the extra bit of chip can make a difference, but not that often.
  • Typically, if my only goal was to optimise a single (male, lance-using) unit, I'd use Wyvern Lord. However, in an actual play-through, I'm more likely to use Paladin so that I can save my flying battalions for my axe Wyverns and my Falcon Knights.
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18 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Aren't there, like, five maps where hazardous terrain is an issue?

Off the top of my head:

  • Chapter 8
  • Chapter 15 (non CF)
  • Chapter 17 AM/VW
  • Chapter 22 VW (not permanent)
  • Chapter 18 CF
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I think it's odd only to consider the player phase of these builds.  I understand that's where the majority of PC kills are going to come from on Maddening, but unless you're doing crazy warp-stride things you're going to need to draw enemies out.  Even bad Wyverns can take a few attacks, while good Wyverns can be viable dodgetanks due to their higher speed limiting enemy follow-ups and innate higher evasion of 25-40% (Avoid+10 and Alert Stance/+).  Even good Paladins are not going to be able to dodge much, do not get any defensive bonuses over Wyverns, and actually receive speed penalties making follow-ups more likely.  Paladins are nearly useless on Enemy Phase, while Wyverns are one of the few viable endgame classes on Enemy Phase.

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Hmm. I don't think I agree with the claim that Paladin is low-investment, but Wyvern Lord is high. At Level 20, Wyvern Rider is easier to certify for than Paladin, needing B/C instead of B/B. Obviously A/A/C is higher than either, but you get a lot more game to build for it, and master classes are much more forgiving to certify for (e.g. being three ranks down for a master class is a lower penalty than being two down for an advanced). I've never really had the experience of someone having trouble certifying for Wyvern Lord myself.

I also disagree with the claim that males have more trouble training flying than riding. Again, the fact that one requires C flying (300 exp) and one requires B riding (680 exp) more than negates any advantage riding units have by going to cavalier. And quite frankly, I find I don't usually go to cavalier with my paladins anyway, since they spend that time picking up Death Blow (or Fiendish Blow for the magical ones), and there's a case for Hit+20 as well.

Paladin's biggest advantage is they can use ground battalions. King of Lions, Supreme Armoured Co., the Impregnable Wall battalion (except for the Deer), the Stride battalion (if playing without DLC, or playing Silver Snow), Duscur Heavy Soldiers, among others.

Besides that, I think the comparison roughly breaks down as follows:

-Swift Strikes users can go either way. Paladin maximizes power and gives extra battalion choices, but Wyvern offers much more mobility. Seteth is easier to slide into Wyvern since he starts with a flying rank and has a riding bane, but for the other two there are cases to be made. Overall I think flier is better for them, BUT the battalion situation may change your mind depending on how many other fliers you are using.

-For Vengeance users, the raw damage swing is not significant, so on the whole I'd favour mobility. But again, the battalion situation might change your mind if you want them to run some utility. Bernadetta should go Falcon Knight instead of Wyvern if going for flying, of course - the lance boon and axe bane make it a no-brainer. I'll also mention that I personally prefer to transition my Vengeance users into other roles post-timeskip because there are plenty of ways to reliably one-round that don't require you to be at low HP (like Sniper)... but if I really wanted to emphasize it above all I'd probably want as much mobility as possible.

-Dimitri should be mentioned; Paladin maximizes the damage of Atrocity. Strictly speaking he's even better as a Wyvern (and the axe bane... really doesn't stop him from getting there effectively, Wyvern is way too forgiving on this front), so again it comes down to battalions.

-Finally, Frozen Lance users are never gonna consider Wyvern ever, but Paladin is a good advanced class for Hubert and Lorenz. Marianne I'm less sold on because she gives up more utility (Physic, Silence) especially with the female-only DLC classes as options. Either way I recommend transition them all to a magic class at Master tier like Dark Knight, since Frozen Lance has increasing trouble one-shotting things lategame and if it's not one-shotting it should not be the only thing in your kit, so might as well get your utility back.

For everyone without one of those combat arts, Wyvern's just gonna win; better strength, better speed, better mobility. Paladin's a very mediocre class for someone like Ingrid or Petra or even Byleth, for instance; the class hamstrings their speed, reduces their damage, and prevents them from being nearly as effective at dodgetanks.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also disagree with the claim that males have more trouble training flying than riding. Again, the fact that one requires C flying (300 exp) and one requires B riding (680 exp) more than negates any advantage riding units have by going to cavalier. And quite frankly, I find I don't usually go to cavalier with my paladins anyway, since they spend that time picking up Death Blow (or Fiendish Blow for the magical ones), and there's a case for Hit+20 as well.

I will typically have my paladins go through cavalier, because it's one of the better classes at intermediate level thanks to its high movement and canto. Sure, it means that you aren't spending the time training towards an actually useful class mastery, but I always like to strike a balance between being strong now and being strong later. I also don't mind going back to grab a couple of masteries later through adjutanting after I have a knowledge gem. Obviously, you can't do that on everyone, but I've never had a problem doing it for a couple of units.

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On 9/5/2021 at 8:09 AM, lenticular said:
  • I still think that Defiant Crit is a win-more ability at best.

Ditto - I think it's impractical to the point of being useless, because honestly, I'd rather my units be fighting at their best all the time, as opposed to needing to be one hit away from dying to be at full power. Though I wonder precisely when you mean by it being a win-more ability.

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Though I wonder precisely when you mean by it being a win-more ability.

"Win-more" is a concept that I'm mostly familiar with from CCGs (eg, Magic: the Gathering, Hearthstone) but that I've also seen applied sometimes to other strategy games. It applies to a card -- or in our case, an ability -- which is potentially very powerful but which is only good in situations where you've basically already won. It's not something that helps you turn a loss into a win; it's something that helps you turn a win into a blowout. That is, it makes you win more than you were already doing. Which usually isn't actually helpful.

In the case of Defiant Crit, you definitely can do some very powerful things with it, but if you have a dodge-tank who can happily sit at below 25% hp because you're that confident that you'll never get hit (for instance) then you've already won. Adding Defiant Crit just means that you win in a flashier way. Of course, in a single player game like Fire Emblem, it's sometimes fun to win in the flashiest and most emphatic way possible (cf. the ongoing thread about reaching damage numbers far higher than any enemy's hp) but I don't consider abilities that let you do so to be good.

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41 minutes ago, lenticular said:

"Win-more" is a concept that I'm mostly familiar with from CCGs (eg, Magic: the Gathering, Hearthstone) but that I've also seen applied sometimes to other strategy games. It applies to a card -- or in our case, an ability -- which is potentially very powerful but which is only good in situations where you've basically already won. It's not something that helps you turn a loss into a win; it's something that helps you turn a win into a blowout. That is, it makes you win more than you were already doing. Which usually isn't actually helpful.

In the case of Defiant Crit, you definitely can do some very powerful things with it, but if you have a dodge-tank who can happily sit at below 25% hp because you're that confident that you'll never get hit (for instance) then you've already won. Adding Defiant Crit just means that you win in a flashier way. Of course, in a single player game like Fire Emblem, it's sometimes fun to win in the flashiest and most emphatic way possible (cf. the ongoing thread about reaching damage numbers far higher than any enemy's hp) but I don't consider abilities that let you do so to be good.

Yeah, I think this is well-said and I strongly agree with all of it.

In theory there might be some sort of lategame map which spawns 12 new enemies every turn and a quick way to kill them all on enemy phase is required to make progress. For such a situation Defiant Crit could legitimately allow you to win when other methods couldn't. But those maps don't exist. And as you say, if you've satisfied the conditions for Defiant Crit to be useful (i.e. you can safely bait in a large number of enemies and counter them for actual damage, all while secure that you won't die), you've already won, because even without Defiant Crit half of them would die anyway and it'll be trivial to sweep through the injured remainder on the next player phase.

Though in fairness one could argue Defiant Crit is a bit more valuable on a Vantage/Wrath build than a dodgetank build because at that point it's ensuring a 100 critical rate with non-killer weapons (i.e. ones with more power, accuracy, or ability to hit weaknesses) so you can achieve relibable KOs against more things, and since Vantage/Wrath relies on killing to be useful (unlike dodgetanking) this is actually increasing survivability and not just win-more. But if we're talking about mastering Wyvern Lord, it feels like building a dodgetank is just easier, since no way are you mastering a master class before reaching A+ flying unless you have a flying bane.

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2 hours ago, lenticular said:

"Win-more" is a concept that I'm mostly familiar with from CCGs (eg, Magic: the Gathering, Hearthstone) but that I've also seen applied sometimes to other strategy games. It applies to a card -- or in our case, an ability -- which is potentially very powerful but which is only good in situations where you've basically already won. It's not something that helps you turn a loss into a win; it's something that helps you turn a win into a blowout. That is, it makes you win more than you were already doing. Which usually isn't actually helpful.

In the case of Defiant Crit, you definitely can do some very powerful things with it, but if you have a dodge-tank who can happily sit at below 25% hp because you're that confident that you'll never get hit (for instance) then you've already won. Adding Defiant Crit just means that you win in a flashier way. Of course, in a single player game like Fire Emblem, it's sometimes fun to win in the flashiest and most emphatic way possible (cf. the ongoing thread about reaching damage numbers far higher than any enemy's hp) but I don't consider abilities that let you do so to be good.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, I think this is well-said and I strongly agree with all of it.

In theory there might be some sort of lategame map which spawns 12 new enemies every turn and a quick way to kill them all on enemy phase is required to make progress. For such a situation Defiant Crit could legitimately allow you to win when other methods couldn't. But those maps don't exist. And as you say, if you've satisfied the conditions for Defiant Crit to be useful (i.e. you can safely bait in a large number of enemies and counter them for actual damage, all while secure that you won't die), you've already won, because even without Defiant Crit half of them would die anyway and it'll be trivial to sweep through the injured remainder on the next player phase.

Though in fairness one could argue Defiant Crit is a bit more valuable on a Vantage/Wrath build than a dodgetank build because at that point it's ensuring a 100 critical rate with non-killer weapons (i.e. ones with more power, accuracy, or ability to hit weaknesses) so you can achieve relibable KOs against more things, and since Vantage/Wrath relies on killing to be useful (unlike dodgetanking) this is actually increasing survivability and not just win-more. But if we're talking about mastering Wyvern Lord, it feels like building a dodgetank is just easier, since no way are you mastering a master class before reaching A+ flying unless you have a flying bane.

Well, that makes sense. I'm not very familiar with Magic: the Gathering and such.

14 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Dimitri should be mentioned; Paladin maximizes the damage of Atrocity.

 

On 9/5/2021 at 8:09 AM, lenticular said:

The three lance relic combat arts (Atrocity, Burning Quake, Ruined Sky) are also great.

Speaking of, Atrocity is the very definition of a win-more ability in my book; sure, Dimitri will do big damage when using it because it's effective against everything, but... just how often will it actually be useful, as opposed to "I wanna hit for really big numbers"???

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51 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Speaking of, Atrocity is the very definition of a win-more ability in my book; sure, Dimitri will do big damage when using it because it's effective against everything, but... just how often will it actually be useful, as opposed to "I wanna hit for really big numbers"???

It's definitely not just win-more. Atrocity allows kills that would be hard for Dimitri to otherwise get on Maddening. It has 53 might, no other combat art can come close to this (Lance of Ruin Tempest Lance is 30, Silver Lance+ Tempest Lance a mere 22). The specifics vary by exactly how much atk he has, but such enemies are almost guaranteed to exist... bulkier enemies like War Masters, as well as vulnerable bosses like Cornelia and Hubert, are particularly likely.

For instance, endgame War Masters need 110 atk to one-shot. With Lancefaire, Death Blow, and King of Lions, Dimitri has 21 atk, so needs a further 89 to one-shot them. With Atrocity, he only needs 36 strength, easily achievable with his growths at reasonable endgame levels. To one-shot with anything else, he would need 59 or more, which is much less reasonable.

The only competition for Atrocity against tough targets is the Brave Lance+. However, even that falls behind Atrocity in most situations (for instance, against those same War Masters, 5 more str is required with the same assumptions) and also has 15 less accuracy. And against bulkier enemies it falls further behind; e.g. some of those war masters have battalions which raise their Prot by 8, at which point Brave Lance+ is almost certainly out (57 str required) while Atrocity can still manage with 44 (may need a Dedue/Byleth link, stat boosters, and/or a Rally depending on RNG luck with his growths).

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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Generally speaking if I’m using a unit with a lance combat art I’ll put them into Paladin- my reasoning usually being that they’ll be solid as is and don’t need too much investment either way, so may as well minimise and spend my lecture points on the more unconventional or hard-to-reach builds I typically employ. The one exception to this was when I used Ferdinand as a Wyvern in my SS run. Other than that it’s just been Paladin or Falcon Knight for Marianne.

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23 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's definitely not just win-more. Atrocity allows kills that would be hard for Dimitri to otherwise get on Maddening. It has 53 might, no other combat art can come close to this (Lance of Ruin Tempest Lance is 30, Silver Lance+ Tempest Lance a mere 22). The specifics vary by exactly how much atk he has, but such enemies are almost guaranteed to exist... bulkier enemies like War Masters, as well as vulnerable bosses like Cornelia and Hubert, are particularly likely.

For instance, endgame War Masters need 110 atk to one-shot. With Lancefaire, Death Blow, and King of Lions, Dimitri has 21 atk, so needs a further 89 to one-shot them. With Atrocity, he only needs 36 strength, easily achievable with his growths at reasonable endgame levels. To one-shot with anything else, he would need 59 or more, which is much less reasonable.

The only competition for Atrocity against tough targets is the Brave Lance+. However, even that falls behind Atrocity in most situations (for instance, against those same War Masters, 5 more str is required with the same assumptions) and also has 15 less accuracy. And against bulkier enemies it falls further behind; e.g. some of those war masters have battalions which raise their Prot by 8, at which point Brave Lance+ is almost certainly out (57 str required) while Atrocity can still manage with 44 (may need a Dedue/Byleth link, stat boosters, and/or a Rally depending on RNG luck with his growths).

Okay, but I very, very often find myself asking "when - or why - the hell do I need to hit something that hard???". Overkilling them does me no more good than just doing enough to take them out, and Atrocity is gratuitous overkill far more often than not (what do I get for hitting an enemy that only has 40-ish HP for nearly double that???). Another strike against Atrocity is that it's tied to the Crest of Blaiddyd, which has an effect that generally does more harm than good. Long story short, it's much more flashy than it is practical.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay, but I very, very often find myself asking "when - or why - the hell do I need to hit something that hard???". Overkilling them does me no more good than just doing enough to take them out, and Atrocity is gratuitous overkill far more often than not (what do I get for hitting an enemy that only has 40-ish HP for nearly double that???). Another strike against Atrocity is that it's tied to the Crest of Blaiddyd, which has an effect that generally does more harm than good. Long story short, it's much more flashy than it is practical.

Enemies start hitting above 40 health even before the timeskip when it becomes available (and yes I know those were rough numbers but still). By the end of the game we are looking at enemies with nearly double that (and Dark Holy Elf has already done the more painstaking work of mathing the damage out), so it’s definitely a tool that lets you turn a lose into a win very often.

If Atrocity is really that much of an overkill move for you even by the last half of the timeskip I’d assume you were playing on a non-Maddening difficulty, which isn’t a problem, but Holy Elf’s points were specifically for Maddening.

The Crest point is a fair one but I don’t count that as a strike against the combat art itself. Activating the effect doesn’t make using the combat art worse (as opposed to, say if you were running a low hp build on Balthus and his crest activated on a combat art- that could potentially screw you up and disincentivize you from using it), it just means the amount of times you can use it per map is lessened to like 3 instead of 5. Since it only requires Umbral Steel to repair I don’t consider breaking it quicker a big enough draw to not use Atrocity at all.

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Crest of Blaiddyd has a 10% chance to activate, and if it activates on the final use of Atrocity it has no negative effect. What it means is that while you have a maximum of 5 uses per battle on paper, there is a ~1/3 chance that this might instead be 4, and a ~1/35 chance that this might instead be 3.

That said, if Atrocity is used enough times to run Areadhbar out of charges, then I'd say it has already proven its worth.

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On 9/5/2021 at 7:05 AM, Barren said:

Terrain Resist is too situational to be useful

If terrain resist is too situational to be useful would its removal make the class stronger? If not, then why have you listed it as a con? Just gloss over it in the main page.

 

On 9/6/2021 at 11:53 AM, lenticular said:

n the case of Defiant Crit, you definitely can do some very powerful things with it, but if you have a dodge-tank who can happily sit at below 25% hp because you're that confident that you'll never get hit (for instance) then you've already won.

You don't need to stack crazy amounts of avoid, just get vantage and retribution. All routes have an easy-to-acquire retribution gambit, and once you get vantage you no longer need to worry about dodging attacks. It's hardly win-more. Certainly it does take some investment to reach the desired skill combo but I've had Dimitri begin taking advantage of Battalion Vantage/Battalion Wrath as early as chapter 8. The reason Defiant Crit itself is so dubious is because it takes the longest time to reach out of all the options. It's not that hard to reach 100 hit 100 crit with a skill bar like Prowess, Vantage, Wrath, Hit+20, and something else, and from there all you need is retribution gambit and maybe a guard adjutant and even a bad unit is online.

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2 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

You don't need to stack crazy amounts of avoid, just get vantage and retribution. All routes have an easy-to-acquire retribution gambit, and once you get vantage you no longer need to worry about dodging attacks. It's hardly win-more. Certainly it does take some investment to reach the desired skill combo but I've had Dimitri begin taking advantage of Battalion Vantage/Battalion Wrath as early as chapter 8. The reason Defiant Crit itself is so dubious is because it takes the longest time to reach out of all the options. It's not that hard to reach 100 hit 100 crit with a skill bar like Prowess, Vantage, Wrath, Hit+20, and something else, and from there all you need is retribution gambit and maybe a guard adjutant and even a bad unit is online.

Aside from all the typical issues with Vantage-Wrath setups, I would also note that Retribution is gated behind A-rank battalions on all routes but one.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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I realize now my previous post was probably getting things derailed, which was the original fear of the thread, but I might as well weigh into the paladin vs Wyvern Lord debate.

Both are good and you shouldn't feel like you're missing out when you pick one. It's like asking whether oneshotting an enemy with a silver lance or oneshotting an enemy with a silver sword is better. I think the big question I need to ask, however, is why aren't we considering both? All of you correctly pointed out that it's not that hard to cert into paladin and it's not that hard to cert into wyvern so why not just cert into each and use whichever one is more appropriate? At this point we're all splitting hairs over one giving +2 damage or another giving more move in certain maps like we're not playing a game that lets you switch your class from the preps menu. That said, I think the blanket argument is a less interesting topic than how you get everything onto your character.

What should I go into first? Wyvern Rider or Paladin?

On maddening, you're likely to cert into your advanced class somewhere around chapter 8-12. Obviously CF can't do certification exams in chapter 12. Therefore you should have a plan to cert into either Wyvern first or Paladin first, and to do so as quick as you can. Since there will be a period of time where you have one class and not the other, ask yourself:

  • Do I have a solution to save the villagers on the east side of the map in chapter 8? If not, can wyvern be that solution?
  • Am I doing any paralogues that benefit greatly from a Flyer? Lorenz, Raphael/Ignatz, and Dedue all have paralogues which are much easier to complete with a flier. Balthus/Hapi is a good bit easier with a flyer. Generally any rout map may be better suited to a Paladin and the Alois/Shamir paralogue in particular is no less difficult to 1turn with a paladin than with a flier (in fact the fastest path to the boss is by ground)
  • Will lancefaire help me kill the Death Knight? In case horseslayer, LoR, or Luin is your weapon of choice
  • Will lancefaire and swordbreaker help me kill Kronya? By chapter 10 you're likely to have both classes unlocked.

I unlocked one class, what's the best way to unlock the next one?

Paladin to wyvern is easiest. You'll probably have wanted axe rank anyway for Brigand death blow or Armor Knight base defense earlier. Just set goals to axe and flying and you should have it pretty fast. Don't forget you can stop the flying training at D+ and you'll still have a good chance to cert into wyvern rider. For females, you probably have pegasus knight cert on the way, and can adjutant knowledge gem to get to C flying for 100% pass rate in no time.

Wyvern to paladin is a bit more difficult, especially if you haven't been training your riding rank. You will have to spend some awkward time in cavalier for this to work. Thankfully, if you are the strongest unit on the team, you'll probably still be fine in cavalier, and if you're not the strongest unit on the team, you can just adjutant to them to get the riding rank you need. How difficult it is to unlock paladin will mostly depend on how much you're willing to use (and potentially abuse) bonus battles.

I really want move+1 or alert stance + and I want it now. Is it okay to abandon the "cert into both" plan to get one of these?

I anticipate this is a reasonable counterargument to my point that you should cert both classes. In this case, yes you should abandon the plan of certing into both and instead dedicate yourself to the path that gets you this skill. That said, if this is the primary issue you're hung up on, then we're hardly discussing the merits of "wyvern vs paladin" but rather discussing the merits of move+1 vs alert stance + vs training neither of these skills.

I really want swift strikes and I want it now. Is it okay to abandon the "cert into both" plan to get one of these?

Yes. Just cert into either wyvern rider or Paladin. They both give similar skill modifiers to lance exp and you'll get swift strikes on time. Paladin is a bit better for this since you'll be training lance to get there anyway but honestly either path is fine.

I have both classes now. Which one should I use?

Good news: you're playing a game where you can change class in the battle prep screen and check the enemy stats. So you don't have to go off of philosophical principles but can instead use planning.

  • Which enemies do you intend to fight with your unit? If you deploy a unit in the west side of the map, check the enemies on the west side of the map for all the future bullet points.
  • Are there breaker skills in play? Breaker+ skills are commonplace on all part 2 maps especially, and running into 30 points of hit and avoid is probably not a good strategy. The existence of breakers is, in my experience, the primary factor in weapon choice
  • Can you reach your destination with your movement type? You may need to be in wyvern to get where you need to go, but this is sometimes not needed (example: Shamir/Alois paralogue)
  • Are there archers? Probably best to use paladin if the answer is "yes"
  • Do you require the stats of one class in order to fight/oneround your enemies? This is where the discussion of "2 extra damage" comes into play. Sometimes 2 extra damage makes absolutely no difference, sometimes it makes all the difference in the world. Good news is: you're playing a game where you can check the enemy stats and see if the extra damage from lancefaire is needed or not. If it's needed, go into paladin. If it's not needed, consider wyvern. I'm really fed up with seeing some people hold up extra damage as the holy grail of arguments and some others decry it as not at all important when both sides are wrong. Literally just check the enemy stats and see if you need extra damage.

Conclusion: Both are good and if you really want to find out if one class is going to do the trick you should log in to your game and check what it is that you need to do and which class will let you do it. If paladin lets you kill the Death Knight in chapter 8, then cert into paladin. If you need wyvern to reach the location you want to reach in the Enbarr map, cert into wyvern. If my paladin Dimitri oneshots everything with vantage/wrath due to his lancefaire, no amount of people crying on SF or twitter or yt about how wyvern is better for him will change that fact.

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On 9/5/2021 at 5:54 PM, Shadow Mir said:
  • Chapter 8
  • Chapter 15 (non CF)
  • Chapter 17 AM/VW
  • Chapter 22 VW (not permanent)
  • Chapter 18 CF

Also the "Fire Trap" in Chapter 14 (non-CF).

On 9/9/2021 at 11:56 PM, OriginalRaisins said:

If terrain resist is too situational to be useful would its removal make the class stronger? If not, then why have you listed it as a con? Just gloss over it in the main page.

Ironically, removing Terrain Resist could actually help Vengeance builds (and low-HP builds in general), by providing a non-lethal way to drag HP down below the necessary thresholds in the aforementioned hazard maps. That said, most of the time, it doesn't move the needle one way or another.

On 9/7/2021 at 4:21 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Okay, but I very, very often find myself asking "when - or why - the hell do I need to hit something that hard???". Overkilling them does me no more good than just doing enough to take them out, and Atrocity is gratuitous overkill far more often than not (what do I get for hitting an enemy that only has 40-ish HP for nearly double that???). Another strike against Atrocity is that it's tied to the Crest of Blaiddyd, which has an effect that generally does more harm than good. Long story short, it's much more flashy than it is practical.

Use Atrocity on Areadhbar in cases where it's the only, or most accurate, option to secure the kill. Use a Brave Lance, or a different art on a more durable weapon (i.e. Tempest Lance on Crescent Sickle) otherwise. Not that hard.

Also, the Crest of Blaiddyd has equal odds proccing on Dimitri's Atrocity as it does on Dimitri's Knightkneeler, or Wrath Strike, or whatever. It's not a strike against Atrocity, but against having Dimitri use combat arts in general.

On 9/6/2021 at 1:03 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hmm. I don't think I agree with the claim that Paladin is low-investment, but Wyvern Lord is high. At Level 20, Wyvern Rider is easier to certify for than Paladin, needing B/C instead of B/B. Obviously A/A/C is higher than either, but you get a lot more game to build for it, and master classes are much more forgiving to certify for (e.g. being three ranks down for a master class is a lower penalty than being two down for an advanced). I've never really had the experience of someone having trouble certifying for Wyvern Lord myself.

Yeah the better comparison is between Paladin and "Wyvern classes" from level 20 onward. Relative to Paladin, Wyvern Rider has 1 less move, but flying mobility. More damage with Axes, less damage with Lances. Gentler certification requirements, but far fewer battalion options. Yes to Alert Stance (+), no to Movement +1. Honestly, the two Advanced classes are pretty competitive with each other in their own right. So replace Wyvern Rider with a straight upgrade (1 more move, higher Strength and Speed, Avoid +10), and it's hard to see Wyvern Lord as anything but superior (outside of certain Lance-oriented builds, or those dependent on grounded battalions) to Paladin.

22 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Aside from all the typical issues with Vantage-Wrath setups, I would also note that Retribution is gated behind A-rank battalions on all routes but one.

True, but by the time any unit gets Defiant Crit on NG, you're almost certain to have multiple other units with A-rank Authority. It's a build that only becomes possible in the lategame.

On 9/6/2021 at 1:55 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

In theory there might be some sort of lategame map which spawns 12 new enemies every turn and a quick way to kill them all on enemy phase is required to make progress. For such a situation Defiant Crit could legitimately allow you to win when other methods couldn't. But those maps don't exist. And as you say, if you've satisfied the conditions for Defiant Crit to be useful (i.e. you can safely bait in a large number of enemies and counter them for actual damage, all while secure that you won't die), you've already won, because even without Defiant Crit half of them would die anyway and it'll be trivial to sweep through the injured remainder on the next player phase.

Alternatively, just throw in a couple Fortify Bishops among the enemy side. Suddenly, you need to kill in one turn, or else not kill at all. I don't recall this ever being an issue, though.

That said, what if your player-phase units are occupied on another part of the map? If my Defiant Avoid/Crit Ingrid, for instance, can clear out a hall solo - where a Defiant Avoid Ingrid would demand other units helping out on the next player phase - surely the former is better, right? I guess the only-Avoid build could solo more slowly, but if you're going for a low turn count, getting the Crit in as well is definitely preferable.

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Thanks everyone for your responses so far. I can totally see where you would all be coming from. And to those who said that maybe a better comparison would have been Paladin vs Wyvern Rider since these two are advance classes. Yes you guys are correct in saying that Wyvern Rider is much easier to certify into than Paladin by comparison. Since in general you only need flying at rank D+ and then Axes at B rank so you would have a little north of a 70% chance of certifying. Paladins of course need Lances at B rank and then riding at C+ for similar chances or riding at rank C which is basically a coin flip whether or not you'll pass. 

Also if I may: I was going for more of a distinction between Paladin or Wyvern Lord when ending up in your final class. The reason why I said that Paladin needs low-mid investment because by chapters 10 or 11 (maybe at earliest 9 pending on your levels during maddening) you can certify into a Paladin early and that if you're plan is to stay Paladin by the end of the game then you're pretty much set. You would only need an advance seal which you get as early as chapter 7 in Lorenz's paralogue or wait until I think chapter 8 or so to buy them. Plus if anything you just keep working on your lances, riding and authority for stronger battalions, better lance rank for end game weapons and movement +1 which combines nicely with canto.

You all have made good points about Dimitri being a Paladin when it comes to Atrocity since this maximizes his kill potential on player phase. Windsweep which I have used on my maddening run is another great tool for him to punch a hole in the enemy's HP and then have someone capitalize on said punched hole. I didn't mean to discount Frozen Lance like I might have implied. Under the right circumstances, same with Vengeance actually, they can be nukes on Player Phase where they can dip in and out. It just requires a proper set up and/or AI manipulation to an extent.

Wyvern Lords while certainly just an direct upgrade from Wyvern Rider, I was making that comparison when it comes to using the best combat arts in the game. Which in my opinion, Lances has the best array of combat arts. Bows are a strong second, but I don't think Axes has that many reliable combat arts even with Axefaire. I wasn't counting on the Hero Relics or Lord class exclusive arts initially but you factor those in that's where we may all (at least me) second guess which set of CAs are the best to abuse. Yes Axes has Smash which is always great and Spike which is some ways slightly worse than Smash but not by too much. Lightning Axe I suppose is good one too but only Edelgard and Annette can make the most of it since they have a good magic growth. Sylvain would rather use Swift Strikes than Lightning Axe. Alert Stance+ takes as long as Movement +1 to achieve regardless on which route you take though. But I would 100% agree that Alert Stance+ wins.

As for Terrain Resist, since it bypasses hazard damage from battalions, it's just a layer of protection while nice could have been so much more. 

Again thank you everyone for contributing to this discussion so far. I just hope that I was able to explain a little better where I was coming from.

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