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I would like to debate units


AnonymousSpeed
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Aight here's a couple topics I believe quite strongly. Pick which one you want.

1) Jill (RD) is overrated

2) Roy and Micaiah are two of the strongest lords pre-awakening.

3) Oliver is actually doodoo tier and terrible in the tower.

4) Sanaki is underrated, better than you think. Who cares if she can't double she does more damage in one attack than most others do in 2.

Fair warning: I'm about to go to sleep so I might not respond for many hours.

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4 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

FE11 Bord is one of the better filler units in the game.

Doesn't he have some magic growth? I remember using him as a dark mage in my first playthrough as kind of a joke but the extra little bit is kind of funny.

  

1 hour ago, Benice said:

I'm a very soft target, but I believe that Axes>Lances in FE6 HM, so I wouldn't mind discussing that.

That axes themselves are better or that axe units are better? On hard mode I can really only see Gonzales, Echidna, and Perceval as being better "axe units" but that's also three strong characters. Then again, those three have to contend against Miledy, Pegasi, and Perceval. Is it fair to lump paladins in one category over the other? In addition, I know weapon triangle is only +10 hit/avo but I think the impact can't be understated when so many enemies in the game use swords.

Edited by OriginalRaisins
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46 minutes ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Doesn't he have some magic growth? I remember using him as a dark mage in my first playthrough as kind of a joke but the extra little bit is kind of funny.

Sadly no, but dark mage gives you 20% base so sounds like you get some good luck!

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10 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

2) Roy and Micaiah are two of the strongest lords pre-awakening.

That Roy one has me curious because I don't have much reason to believe it (certainly not pre-21(x)), but I also couldn't really debate it as I haven't played BB in some time. Meanwhile I can see a bit in that direction about Micaiah because I'd say she's given a ton of flack, especially when she has a pretty easy route to Wrath from when you can first get it which could help delete enemies on player phase and Thani obviously good. Then of course she also has staff access which while it arguably supplants Sacrifice it doesn't in the utility it can have in Part 1.

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5 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

FE11 Bord is one of the better filler units in the game.

I have actual points to make if you take the bait. :^)

I used to use Bord rather extensively (I've even made him my Parthia user as a warrior in some playthroughs). Yeah his growths are really nothing to write home about, but he starts with C axes which makes him immediately more useful than the other axe bros for hammer access (theoertically Killer Axe too, but I don't think they show up anywhere resembling early game). None of the axe bros will end up that fantastic, but Bord has a more defined role with his hammer than Barst does (Cord can't even use hand axes at base so he isn't even worth consideration). Neither of them will have stellar stats, but despite Barst's early lead, Bord will probably out strength him before promotion. If you're not using Minerva (which is sensible) he also makes for one of the best Hautclere users due to that aformentioned weapon rank. Other units do come with higher weapon ranks, but Bord you get at the start of the game, so he should easily have an A rank long before higher ranked axe users show up.

5 minutes ago, Dayni said:

That Roy one has me curious because I don't have much reason to believe it (certainly not pre-21(x)), but I also couldn't really debate it as I haven't played BB in some time. Meanwhile I can see a bit in that direction about Micaiah because I'd say she's given a ton of flack, especially when she has a pretty easy route to Wrath from when you can first get it which could help delete enemies on player phase and Thani obviously good. Then of course she also has staff access which while it arguably supplants Sacrifice it doesn't in the utility it can have in Part 1.

A stiff breeze can kill Micaiah and she fails to double anything that's not a general, but if you keep her out of the way of the metaphorical wind she can contribute a lot. Damage is damage even if she's not doubling, and even in a game with high res enemies, magic damage is still useful. Sacrifice also makes her rather painless to train as you're not depending solely on combat.

Yeah, Roy I can't see much logic for. Sure he's decent in early game and end game, but for the very lengthy middle game he's inevitably going to be a liability more than anything. I love my boy, but he is not combat ready from Arcadia until Zephiel.

Edited by Jotari
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41 minutes ago, Dayni said:

That Roy one has me curious because I don't have much reason to believe it (certainly not pre-21(x)), but I also couldn't really debate it as I haven't played BB in some time.

Roy's strength comes from a combination of

  • Supports are excellent. They're fast to build and give huge bonuses to relevant units like Marcus, Alan, and Lance. Roy's support with them keeps them relevant, and in NM makes them superior to units like Zealot and even Perceval. Current draft race strats (NM) use a LOT of Roy, and he basically never falls off. Even in maps like chapter 18 and 20 he's still scrappin.
  • Swords are strong. They're accurate, killing edges are plentiful in the early game, and silver swords come in pretty early too. Roy with an iron sword or rapier of course looks doodoo but the moment you put a stronger sword on him he does much better. Also don't forget the light brand. With his high skill, luck, and aforementioned supports it's really easy for him to put the 10 damage on targets when you need to.
  • Effective weaponry is strong. Roy with an armorslayer, wyrmslayer, or lancereaver can demolish whatever it is he's attacking. Turns out you don't need much stats when your weapon's base damage and accuracy is already through the roof.

What does Roy have to do anyway? Most of the time he's being escorted and so as long as he can deliver high amounts of damage to a threatening target on player phase he can usually defend himself adequately. Also his bulk at level 20 (which he usually reaches somewhere around chapter 11-13 for me) is not something to sneeze at. All he realistically needs to do on each map is keep enemies away, and he does that just fine.

41 minutes ago, Dayni said:

Meanwhile I can see a bit in that direction about Micaiah because I'd say she's given a ton of flack, especially when she has a pretty easy route to Wrath from when you can first get it which could help delete enemies on player phase and Thani obviously good. Then of course she also has staff access which while it arguably supplants Sacrifice it doesn't in the utility it can have in Part 1.

Wrath setups are a bit harder because it's actually a little more work than you think to get someone injured, sacrifice them, and then attack with Micaiah. You can probably expect wrath Micaiah to be attacking by turn 3 at the absolute earliest, and turn 4 on average. In addition, don't forget that every part 3 map has a friendly physic staff user on the yellow team who likes to keep Micaiah topped off, but our good friend Fiona can usually sweep him off the battlefield. I've run 0% hm a couple times and honestly even at base Micaiah is still doing relevant chip damage with a regular old Thani hit in maps like 4-p and sometimes 4-e-1 even. It helps that most enemies in RD only have 1 range so she's practically always safe. Similar to Roy, she's going to have backup, and chip damage is never harmful, especially if some of your units like Naesala are still having an awkward time onerounding some targets.

Staff access augments sacrifice. Sacrifice is a restore staff that you can use even while silenced, and that ends up being relevant on both 4-3 and 4-e-1. She does also have access to staves like physic, Recover, Restore, and Matrona, the latter three of which are equally powerful regardless of your stats. Micaiah at base stats can still use the Matrona and it will still have infinite range, deliver a full heal, and restore to top biorhythm.

I will not lie, I evaluate units on a very different criteria than some others, but I think it's fair to judge units based off of two things:

  • Benefit minus investment
  • How expensive are they to replace?

Micaiah promotes freely through both tiers, meaning she requires zero investment to reach her promotions. Once she has them, she can ALWAYS sacrifice to heal statuses, she can ALWAYS hit with Thani (even at base stats) for meaningful damage, she can ALWAYS cast physic in part 3 and 4, she can ALWAYS use recover in the tower, and with a couple arms' scrolls (an investment to be sure, but you likely have some) she can ALWAYS cast Matrona for its full benefit. Literally the only thing I described that required investment is the arms scrolls for part 4 Matrona. One could reasonably argue that you have to go out of your way to get Thani in 1-2, but I consider that cost to be very small.

How expensive is she to replace? Well, nobody can use sacrifice. Nobody can use Thani. Laura can use physic in part 3 but needs a little staff rank (not hard to get tbh). Some other units can use recover in the tower, and well at that (Bastian and Elincia are the primary examples, since they do other good things too). Bringing a different Matrona user to the tower requires you to spend one of your precious 10 deployment slots for a unit that...... does the exact same thing Micaiah would do if you just used some arms scrolls? That's very costly in my opinion.

I understand that people look unfavorably upon her because she can't go 8 move enemy phase combat with 1-2 range cleaning up the entire map, but that's missing the point - because Micaiah is so low-investment, all of the resources you would have poured into her can instead go into another unit who can fight at 1-2 range and go brrrr. If Micaiah required investment to reach the abilities I described, then she would make her entire army weaker. But because she can do all these things without you needing to put a drop of exp into her, the entire Dawn Brigade can gobble up the exp all the while having a strong support unit to keep them healed and awake.

Contrast to Ike, who while being a strong unit in his own right is both easily replaceable (LOTS of units can get strong 1-2 range in part 4, and many of them have mounts and Canto, which Ike does not have) and requires some training to succeed (base stat Ike gets thrashed by the BK, even if you use a hammer). Because of this, you need to take some time out of the Greil mercs to train Ike. If you could go through all of part 3 and part 4 GM maps putting the exp that would have gone onto Ike onto Haar or Titania instead, you would, but unfortunately you have to slow down your whole army to train him and when you do, you get something that is weaker than your other units at what he does.

Edited by OriginalRaisins
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2 hours ago, Benice said:

I'm a very soft target

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Like Mr. Raisins said, I'd be interested to hear whether you're talking more about axe-users or axes as a weapon type.

10 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

2) Roy and Micaiah are two of the strongest lords pre-awakening.

I disagree about Roy, but to be honest I've really warmed up to Micaiah recently. Thani is pretty strong and staves give her something useful to do no matter what.

Roy may have access to effective weapons, but those weapons are 1-range instead of 1-2 range, meaning he'll usually eat a counter. FE6 enemies are also pretty tanky, so while Roy is doing decent damage it's still not great. Dieck and Rutger and even Fir make better use of those weapons, since they can actually double (often necessary to 1RKO hard mode enemies) and survive more rounds of combat (by either dodging or being tankier) and aren't stuck at 5 move for quite so long ('cause, you know, promotion).

5 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

I have actual points to make if you take the bait. :^)

Walleye Fish Take The Bait - Download Free Vectors ...I assume these points are hammer related?

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19 minutes ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Staff access augments sacrifice. Sacrifice is a restore staff that you can use even while silenced, and that ends up being relevant on both 4-3 and 4-e-1.

Honestly I think that's a bit moot, as I don't think Micaiah even can reasonably be silenced. For a long time I thought she was just flat out immune to the silence status effect due to Lekain's mass silence constantly missing her, but really it's because her resistance is so high no enemy outside of a 0% run will ever likely be able to silence her.

Quote

Contrast to Ike, who while being a strong unit in his own right is both easily replaceable (LOTS of units can get strong 1-2 range in part 4, and many of them have mounts and Canto, which Ike does not have) and requires some training to succeed (base stat Ike gets thrashed by the BK, even if you use a hammer). Because of this, you need to take some time out of the Greil mercs to train Ike. If you could go through all of part 3 and part 4 GM maps putting the exp that would have gone onto Ike onto Haar or Titania instead, you would, but unfortunately you have to slow down your whole army to train him and when you do, you get something that is weaker than your other units at what he does.

Ike's really easy to train though. And it's not like there's high competition in the merc maps. And by that I don't mean there aren't good units competing against each other, there are, but it's sort of the opposite of the Dawn Brigade maps (where there isn't a wide selection of good units competing against each other), the merc maps are pretty easy so the chances are you can spread around the exp easily too without anyone really missing out. And this goes even more so for Ike who only needs nine or ten levels before he hits his level cap. Unless you're actively avoiding him and trying to feed every kill to Haar (diminishing returns to do so in Part 3, not as much as exp curve in more recent games, but still diminishing returns are there I'm sure), getting Ike to level 20 before part 4 takes really low effort and investment. You probably only need to kill 15-20 enemies with him. And by the time he hits promotion at level 20, he's already pretty dang good due to also having Ragnell. Can other units do what Ike does? Yeah, sure, but Ike can also do what Ike does, he's forced deployed and training him doesn't require much effort at all. All your logic for why Roy is good applies to Radiant Dawn Ike just as much, only Radiant Dawn Ike can actually take a hit and kill things too. There are units in addition to Ike that can do that too, but of course there's also tonnes of units that can do what Roy does in Binding Blade as well (and if we're talking supports, Ike has the pretty busted +15% avoid Earth Affinity which he can pair with any unit in the cast, and it'll probably level up quicker than Roy's fast supports, because supports are super slow in Binding Blade in general).

Edited by Jotari
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29 minutes ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Contrast to Ike, who while being a strong unit in his own right is both easily replaceable (LOTS of units can get strong 1-2 range in part 4, and many of them have mounts and Canto, which Ike does not have) and requires some training to succeed (base stat Ike gets thrashed by the BK, even if you use a hammer). Because of this, you need to take some time out of the Greil mercs to train Ike. If you could go through all of part 3 and part 4 GM maps putting the exp that would have gone onto Ike onto Haar or Titania instead, you would, but unfortunately you have to slow down your whole army to train him and when you do, you get something that is weaker than your other units at what he does.

Are you saying Micaiah > Ike?

I will be keeping my eye on this discussion...

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6 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

FE11 Bord is one of the better filler units in the game.

I have actual points to make if you take the bait. :^)

Are all of them "he has C Axes at base so he can use Hammer" by any chance?

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35 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Honestly I think that's a bit moot, as I don't think Micaiah even can reasonably be silenced. For a long time I thought she was just flat out immune to the silence status effect due to Lekain's mass silence constantly missing her, but really it's because her resistance is so high no enemy outside of a 0% run will ever likely be able to silence her.

I see her get hit by elsilence in chapter 4-3 and hit by Lekain's silence in 4-e-1 pretty frequently. Even then, it's one fewer restore staff you have to buy.

35 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Ike's really easy to train though. And it's not like there's high competition in the merc maps. And by that I don't mean there aren't good units competing against each other, there are, but it's sort of the opposite of the Dawn Brigade maps (where there isn't a wide selection of good units competing against each other), the merc maps are pretty easy so the chances are you can spread around the exp easily too without anyone really missing out. And this goes even more so for Ike who only needs nine or ten levels before he hits his level cap. Unless you're actively avoiding him and trying to feed every kill to Haar (diminishing returns to do so in Part 3, not as much as exp curve in more recent games, but still diminishing returns are there I'm sure), getting Ike to level 20 before part 4 takes really low effort and investment. You probably only need to kill 15-20 enemies with him. And by the time he hits promotion at level 20, he's already pretty dang good due to also having Ragnell. Can other units do what Ike does? Yeah, sure, but Ike can also do what Ike does, he's forced deployed and training him doesn't require much effort at all. All your logic for why Roy is good applies to Radiant Dawn Ike just as much, only Radiant Dawn Ike can actually take a hit and kill things too. There are units in addition to Ike that can do that too, but of course there's also tonnes of units that can do what Roy does in Binding Blade as well (and if we're talking supports, Ike has the pretty busted +15% avoid Earth Affinity which he can pair with any unit in the cast, and it'll probably level up quicker than Roy's fast supports, because supports are super slow in Binding Blade in general).

I want to make one thing perfectly clear: I don't think Ike is weak at all. But the cost to train him is nonzero, whereas the cost to train Micaiah is zero. Furthermore, even though he can fight at 1-2 range in part 4 or fight at 1 range in part 3, so can many other people, and he's probably not even in the top 10 units who can do those things. Even on the most demanding maps, you still only need like 4ish units spreading out across the map to fight bad guys on enemy phase. If you're spreading out your combat units and an enemy attacks Ike, that's a combat that could have involved a more capable player unit.

You claim it takes only 15-20 enemies to get him to 20, but that's a LOT of units. I'm pretty sure the entire front half of 3-8 has that many units in it. The seven levels on Ike could have been seven levels of exp going to Haar, Titania, Janaff/Ulki's strike rank, Mia, Shinon, even Gatrie. Furthermore, if you're leveling up by killing enemies then who knows where your stat points are going to end up, and if you're leveling up by using BEXP that's another resource that could have gone towards anyone. I'm pretty sure the number of enemies you have to kill is even greater on Hard Mode, but regardless of how nitpicky we want to get, 15-20 is still greater than zero (the number that Micaiah needs). And once you do give him that exp, what are you left with? Another fighting unit to fight enemies, not like you don't have dozens of those anyway. If I were in the endgame maps and had to choose between undeploying a 20/20 Ike and undeploying a base level Micaiah, I'd probably keep the Micaiah.

I'll grant that you're correct that he's force deployed and passably good so you might as well use him, but this ignores the fact that Ike forces you to train him. You can't elect to keep him behind if you want, you have to find time to put exp into him, unlike Micaiah, who can do literally whatever you like and it'll be fine.

I like your comparison of Ike to Roy, won't lie. Ike still gets effective weaponry in Wyrmslayer and Hammer, both of which are strong in his maps and so you have a strong point there. Regarding the earth supports, it's certainly meaningful but it's not the end-all-be-all that people make it out to be. At the end of the day you still have to hit your targets (Ike struggles with this in endgame) and I've yet to see double earth bring enemies down to 0 hit on hard mode. If I'm honest, I think the benefits Roy gives with his fire affinity (and make no mistake, the benefit of Roy support is mostly that it goes to a stronger unit), which is 2.5 hit, 2.5 avo, 2.5 crit, and 0.5 attack, are more powerful than just 7.5 avoid, and Roy can give that away five times versus Ike's 3 times. By the way, supports are not that difficult to train. Draft speedrun gets B Roy/Marcus and A Roy/Thany by the end of chapter 4, that's 5 support ranks in 4 chapters, you can't do that in RD. RD supports are certainly less tedious to build, but you get them later and they can only be shared between two units.

I also want to go ahead and say that I don't think the DB maps are particularly hard, even in part 3. Nothing the DB has to go through is as hard as 3-5 (if you want the energy drop) or 3-10, two chapters which are made immensely easier by having strong mounted units and 1-2 range combat, two things Ike would have stolen from you had you been training him. DB maps can throw you off if you don't have beast killers or beast foe or you don't have supports in 3-12 or you don't have a tier 3 unit in 3-13 (you always have Tauroneo) but those things are not particularly difficult to acquire. Even on 0% growths the DB maps were significantly easier than the GM maps. Also, spreading out your exp is a costly action, as it's better to put units above the exp curve than to keep them up to par, so feeding Ike exp is a (unfortunately necessary) action you have to take at some point that will always harm the progress of other units in your army.

52 minutes ago, Florete said:

Are you saying Micaiah > Ike?

In RD? Yeah.

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3 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

That axes themselves are better or that axe units are better?

Kind of a combination of the two; I have points for both, but given that this is supposed to be unit-based debate, I'll focus on that.

I will freely admit that a lot of the axe users are extremely questionable, but there are a few who are quite god in my opinion, and in my experience, having an axe in Ilia automatically makes you a lot stronger.

I don't have time to properly elaborate right now, but I promise to do so later!

3 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

On hard mode I can really only see Gonzales, Echidna, and Perceval as being better "axe units" but that's also three strong characters.

I feel like Garret is also slept on a ton; he's a good prepromote who has fantastic offense, especially in Ilia. For reference, his base hit with Iron, Steel, Killer and Hand axes are 111, 96, 111 and 96 again. Furthermore, he joins at a really low level for his bases; not only are his bases good, but his admittedly bad growths do give him room to get blessed without bad RNG messing him up too much. He does have a low weapon rank, which does hold him back, but I don't think he needs silver weapons, Brave axe or Armads to be good.

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Like Mr. Raisins said, I'd be interested to hear whether you're talking more about axe-users or axes as a weapon type.

I'll address both in my post, I think, but I've got a load of homework to do right now, so it'll have to wait. Er, do ping me if I haven't replied again by Wednesday, though, I can be very forgetful.

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2 minutes ago, Benice said:

I feel like Garret is also slept on a ton; he's a good prepromote who has fantastic offense, especially in Ilia. For reference, his base hit with Iron, Steel, Killer and Hand axes are 111, 96, 111 and 96 again. Furthermore, he joins at a really low level for his bases; not only are his bases good, but his admittedly bad growths do give him room to get blessed without bad RNG messing him up too much. He does have a low weapon rank, which does hold him back, but I don't think he needs silver weapons, Brave axe or Armads to be good.

I'll grant you this, Garrett is insanely powerful. On my other playthroughs I was turned off by the C rank axes until I realized that everything you want to use is C or below anyway. Killer, hand axe, and iron is going to be enough, and you still have halberd if it hasn't broken yet. Besides, the only axes above that rank are the brave axe (which I think is super underrated) the silver axe (just give it to Bartre) and Armads. Also fun to consider is the fact that axes are cheaper :)

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32 minutes ago, OriginalRaisins said:

In RD? Yeah.

Whoo boy, gettin' a little too based over here.

9 minutes ago, Benice said:

I feel like Garret is also slept on a ton; he's a good prepromote who has fantastic offense, especially in Ilia. For reference, his base hit with Iron, Steel, Killer and Hand axes are 111, 96, 111 and 96 again. Furthermore, he joins at a really low level for his bases; not only are his bases good, but his admittedly bad growths do give him room to get blessed without bad RNG messing him up too much. He does have a low weapon rank, which does hold him back, but I don't think he needs silver weapons, Brave axe or Armads to be good.

4 minutes ago, OriginalRaisins said:

I'll grant you this, Garrett is insanely powerful. On my other playthroughs I was turned off by the C rank axes until I realized that everything you want to use is C or below anyway. Killer, hand axe, and iron is going to be enough, and you still have halberd if it hasn't broken yet. Besides, the only axes above that rank are the brave axe (which I think is super underrated) the silver axe (just give it to Bartre) and Armads. Also fun to consider is the fact that axes are cheaper 🙂

Y'all forgetting to mention the other cool thing about Garret, which is his pretty solid bulk. On Hard Mode, he joins with nearly capped HP. As a level 1 promoted unit. His defensive stats aren't spectacular, but he can still soak up a bunch of hits just because his HP pool is so big.

9 minutes ago, Benice said:

I'll address both in my post, I think, but I've got a load of homework to do right now, so it'll have to wait. Er, do ping me if I haven't replied again by Wednesday, though, I can be very forgetful.

Aight, it shall be done.

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5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I used to use Bord rather extensively (I've even made him my Parthia user as a warrior in some playthroughs). Yeah his growths are really nothing to write home about, but he starts with C axes which makes him immediately more useful than the other axe bros for hammer access (theoertically Killer Axe too, but I don't think they show up anywhere resembling early game). None of the axe bros will end up that fantastic, but Bord has a more defined role with his hammer than Barst does (Cord can't even use hand axes at base so he isn't even worth consideration). Neither of them will have stellar stats, but despite Barst's early lead, Bord will probably out strength him before promotion. If you're not using Minerva (which is sensible) he also makes for one of the best Hautclere users due to that aformentioned weapon rank. Other units do come with higher weapon ranks, but Bord you get at the start of the game, so he should easily have an A rank long before higher ranked axe users show up.

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I assume these points are hammer related?

4 hours ago, banana_boy said:

Are all of them "he has C Axes at base so he can use Hammer" by any chance?

A big part is his axe rank, being the only base hammer user until minerva shows up in ch10, but having base C has more advantages that make bord a pretty nice filler unit, as well as Bords own abilities.

On H5 with his speed and the weight of the hammer Bord cant double the enemy armor knights but instead leaves them at low hp, which is better because his growths are not very good (even by FE11 standards with is 10% speed), and you don't want to invest in him because of that. this opens up options for other units to snag easy kills on the armor knights always come in 2's throughout the game and you have plenty of options to kill the other one with the existence of Merric and Wendell.

Because of the way axe rank works in this game, Bord is also more accurate than cord and barst, and can chip down the non armored units with hand axe, and since half of the map charges you at the very beginning of every chapter he has no problem keeping up with the cavs and get a an attack in every turn until the most of the map is clear.

The trick is to not give Bord kills but invest in his quality, being his axe rank. If he at least chucking a handaxe every turn he will hit B rank pretty rapidly even when playing at a decent pace and get access to the silver axe that the chapter 7 boss drops which gives him accurate chunks of damage he can hit lance cavs with, as well as trade very well with the ch9 pirates.

ch10 there are some armor knights to fight before you get Minerva and even when you get her he can still contribute with the hammer hits and decent chunking with silver axe like in ch14 for example (gra) where there are armor knights split up throughout the entire map, letting you split up and kill the boss efficiently before you get drowned in Pegasus Knight reinforcements.

Bord will probably never be my first promo but I have gotten him to level 10 playing decently fast without getting him a single kill, and then reclassing him to hero for the speed boosts ensures that while he will never double, he wont get doubled. 

 

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5 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Roy's strength comes from a combination of

  • Supports are excellent. They're fast to build and give huge bonuses to relevant units like Marcus, Alan, and Lance. Roy's support with them keeps them relevant, and in NM makes them superior to units like Zealot and even Perceval. Current draft race strats (NM) use a LOT of Roy, and he basically never falls off. Even in maps like chapter 18 and 20 he's still scrappin.
  • Swords are strong. They're accurate, killing edges are plentiful in the early game, and silver swords come in pretty early too. Roy with an iron sword or rapier of course looks doodoo but the moment you put a stronger sword on him he does much better. Also don't forget the light brand. With his high skill, luck, and aforementioned supports it's really easy for him to put the 10 damage on targets when you need to.
  • Effective weaponry is strong. Roy with an armorslayer, wyrmslayer, or lancereaver can demolish whatever it is he's attacking. Turns out you don't need much stats when your weapon's base damage and accuracy is already through the roof.

What does Roy have to do anyway? Most of the time he's being escorted and so as long as he can deliver high amounts of damage to a threatening target on player phase he can usually defend himself adequately. Also his bulk at level 20 (which he usually reaches somewhere around chapter 11-13 for me) is not something to sneeze at. All he realistically needs to do on each map is keep enemies away, and he does that just fine.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing this. Having him support the cavaliers is a problem because Binding Blade has some of the biggest maps in the series, discounting Holy War. This means either they need to slow down so Roy can keep up or Roy won't be giving them support bonuses. The fact that Roy is stuck at only 5 move for nearly the whole game only makes this worse. Also, supports in Binding Blade are rather slow to build, with few exceptions. RE: weaponry, most of those weapons are better used by Rutger or Fir.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, supports in Binding Blade are rather slow to build, with few exceptions.

Those exceptions are Roy building support with the cavs lol. I usually have their A support done by the end of chapter 2 and I've only spent like 4ish minutes.

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Having him support the cavaliers is a problem because Binding Blade has some of the biggest maps in the series, discounting Holy War

Pick up Roy, move closer to enemy, drop Roy. The maps are large but that means they often have dead space where you can afford to pick up Roy and move him via rescue. Looking at the maps in binding blade it's pretty easy to see where the combat is taking place and you can use rescue to cart him there safely.

 

6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

RE: weaponry, most of those weapons are better used by Rutger or Fir.

You get two killing edges, you can buy silver swords, and the effective weapons I'll grant are strong on Rutger and Fir but you can always use trade command to pass them around, especially since Wyverns tend to attack in packs.

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2 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Those exceptions are Roy building support with the cavs lol. I usually have their A support done by the end of chapter 2 and I've only spent like 4ish minutes.

I'm gonna have to call bullshit here. There is a limit to how many support points can be gained in a single chapter, for one. Also, needless to say, not everyone is okay with turtling to build supports (which you seem to be assuming).

2 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Pick up Roy, move closer to enemy, drop Roy. The maps are large but that means they often have dead space where you can afford to pick up Roy and move him via rescue. Looking at the maps in binding blade it's pretty easy to see where the combat is taking place and you can use rescue to cart him there safely.

Which means likely having him in danger come enemy phase, and given how bad he is, having him get attacked instead of most any better unit is a net negative.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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4 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

On H5 with his speed and the weight of the hammer Bord cant double the enemy armor knights but instead leaves them at low hp, which is better because his growths are not very good (even by FE11 standards with is 10% speed), and you don't want to invest in him because of that. this opens up options for other units to snag easy kills on the armor knights always come in 2's throughout the game and you have plenty of options to kill the other one with the existence of Merric and Wendell.

Bord is a Jeigan.

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9 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

I see her get hit by elsilence in chapter 4-3 and hit by Lekain's silence in 4-e-1 pretty frequently. Even then, it's one fewer restore staff you have to buy.

Actually I've just looked up Lekain's Judge and apparently Micaiah is straight up immune to that particular method of silence. As are Saints (Oliver OP!). I also don't see anything about Elsilence having a res check, it seems to just straight up have a set 80% hit, so her getting silenced by one of them seems likely enough.

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I want to make one thing perfectly clear: I don't think Ike is weak at all. But the cost to train him is nonzero, whereas the cost to train Micaiah is zero. Furthermore, even though he can fight at 1-2 range in part 4 or fight at 1 range in part 3, so can many other people, and he's probably not even in the top 10 units who can do those things. Even on the most demanding maps, you still only need like 4ish units spreading out across the map to fight bad guys on enemy phase. If you're spreading out your combat units and an enemy attacks Ike, that's a combat that could have involved a more capable player unit.

It's not really non zero to train Ike, it's mandatory to train him. As you said, he gets stomped by the Black Knight at base, even with a hammer. So unless you want to go through the pain of rigging misses or crits, giving Ike a few levels is basically a requirement of the game.

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You claim it takes only 15-20 enemies to get him to 20, but that's a LOT of units. I'm pretty sure the entire front half of 3-8 has that many units in it. The seven levels on Ike could have been seven levels of exp going to Haar, Titania, Janaff/Ulki's strike rank, Mia, Shinon, even Gatrie. Furthermore, if you're leveling up by killing enemies then who knows where your stat points are going to end up, and if you're leveling up by using BEXP that's another resource that could have gone towards anyone. I'm pretty sure the number of enemies you have to kill is even greater on Hard Mode, but regardless of how nitpicky we want to get, 15-20 is still greater than zero (the number that Micaiah needs). And once you do give him that exp, what are you left with? Another fighting unit to fight enemies, not like you don't have dozens of those anyway. If I were in the endgame maps and had to choose between undeploying a 20/20 Ike and undeploying a base level Micaiah, I'd probably keep the Micaiah.

What's the alternative, to field Ike and never use him to kill anything at all? It's not like Ike is an exp sink Jagen or an Est who only becomes useful later on, he's decent from the get go and if he helps to kill two or three enemies per map, he will reach his level cap quite soon and, more importantly, he'll help you clear those maps faster to get more bonus exp. Hiding Ike in a corner and refusing to use him because Tatiana will get a few more points of exp sounds more like OCD or a challenge run than efficiency. If you could undeploy Ike then sure, that logic could hold, but he's there anyway, you're shooting yourself in the foot by ignoring a unit that can contribute to the map.

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I'll grant that you're correct that he's force deployed and passably good so you might as well use him, but this ignores the fact that Ike forces you to train him. You can't elect to keep him behind if you want, you have to find time to put exp into him, unlike Micaiah, who can do literally whatever you like and it'll be fine.

Yeah I'm not exactly arguing against Micaiah > Ike. There's decent enough reasoning there in her utility. If she couldn't act as a staff bot I might have some issues with it, as he Thany strikes untrained probably wouldn't outmatch Ike's Ragnell use untrained, but overall Micaiah does have more utility and diversity as a unit than Ike. You just have to pay attention and be careful with how you use her.

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I like your comparison of Ike to Roy, won't lie. Ike still gets effective weaponry in Wyrmslayer and Hammer, both of which are strong in his maps and so you have a strong point there. Regarding the earth supports, it's certainly meaningful but it's not the end-all-be-all that people make it out to be. At the end of the day you still have to hit your targets (Ike struggles with this in endgame) and I've yet to see double earth bring enemies down to 0 hit on hard mode. If I'm honest, I think the benefits Roy gives with his fire affinity (and make no mistake, the benefit of Roy support is mostly that it goes to a stronger unit), which is 2.5 hit, 2.5 avo, 2.5 crit, and 0.5 attack, are more powerful than just 7.5 avoid, and Roy can give that away five times versus Ike's 3 times. By the way, supports are not that difficult to train. Draft speedrun gets B Roy/Marcus and A Roy/Thany by the end of chapter 4, that's 5 support ranks in 4 chapters, you can't do that in RD. RD supports are certainly less tedious to build, but you get them later and they can only be shared between two units.

The point is that the arguments in favor of Roy, that he's forced deployed, can contribute chip damage and can support other units, are all arguments that apply to Ike just as much, only in addition to all that Ike can actually take a hit (and has 1-2 range for longer). So if Roy is good for all of those reasons, Ike must be just as good if not better.

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I also want to go ahead and say that I don't think the DB maps are particularly hard, even in part 3. Nothing the DB has to go through is as hard as 3-5 (if you want the energy drop) or 3-10, two chapters which are made immensely easier by having strong mounted units and 1-2 range combat, two things Ike would have stolen from you had you been training him. DB maps can throw you off if you don't have beast killers or beast foe or you don't have supports in 3-12 or you don't have a tier 3 unit in 3-13 (you always have Tauroneo) but those things are not particularly difficult to acquire. Even on 0% growths the DB maps were significantly easier than the GM maps. Also, spreading out your exp is a costly action, as it's better to put units above the exp curve than to keep them up to par, so feeding Ike exp is a (unfortunately necessary) action you have to take at some point that will always harm the progress of other units in your army.

In RD? Yeah.

I don't find 3-10 particularly hard (maybe because I train Ike XD). 3-11 can be pretty tough though. Of course by then Ike has Ragnell so the point of him stealing 1-2 range form anyone else is non existant (not that 1-2 range on swords outside of Ragnell are all that great, I remember storm swords being in existence, but really, really inaccurate).

Edited by Jotari
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