I would like to debate units

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

On topic, my particular unit hot take has always been that Radiant Dawn Astra is far better than people give her credit for. Yeah, she does require some amount of babying, but that babying is really worth it once you give her a few levels, because she's one of the only units in the game that can effectively combo Paragon and Blossom together given her made stat gains. I literally once had an Astrid that had capped all stats by the time she was a level 14 Silver Knight. And to top it all off, she's the only unit that can use the Double Bow (aka the best weapon in the game) in conjunction with canto.

Agreed, Radiant Dawn Astra is great. You hit someone five times, at full power, it's pretty much a guaranteed kill against all but the bulkies-

Wait, you meant that horsegirl with terrible taste in men. I mean, is the babying really worth it? You can't get Blossom on her until late Part 3, at which point, she's almost certainly far behind the rest of your crew. And as a bow user (without Crossbows, mind you), she'll basically only be fighting one foe per turn on player phase. Given the investment, sure she can be good - but is having a mounted Double Bow for the Tower worth the intense babying?

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Agreed, Radiant Dawn Astra is great. You hit someone five times, at full power, it's pretty much a guaranteed kill against all but the bulkies-

D'oh XD Astrid.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wait, you meant that horsegirl with terrible taste in men. I mean, is the babying really worth it? You can't get Blossom on her until late Part 3, at which point, she's almost certainly far behind the rest of your crew. And as a bow user (without Crossbows, mind you), she'll basically only be fighting one foe per turn on player phase. Given the investment, sure she can be good - but is having a mounted Double Bow for the Tower worth the intense babying?

It is, because that's what the Hawk King's army is built for. There's enough free exp to go around in those two chapters to baby anyone into third tier without much trouble (well except the Tormod gang, the most needing babying to actually be able to perform).

[Vicious Sal]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

D'oh XD Astrid.

It is, because that's what the Hawk King's army is built for. There's enough free exp to go around in those two chapters to baby anyone into third tier without much trouble (well except the Tormod gang, the most needing babying to actually be able to perform).

Even then I'd still rate astrid as one of the worst.

If playing eficiently you 1 or 2 turn the map.
If casual play and you are using the map to juice a unit into usability by getting them tier 3 we have to use another metric to measure how good a unit is. Best for that is how easy it is to get a unit up to par. This is by how slow the EXp funnel starts and how quickly it ends. Even with Paragon Astrid sucks here, since she can only do 1 attack per Ally and enemy phase, 2 at max if using reyson. 
Almost every other unit getting funneled will have 1 range and be able to do Ep fighting. Even if at first it's just eating a counter and not KO'ing back. That's two rounds of combat vs 1 round of combat boosted by apragon for astrid. But as units get stronger, the 1 range unit is able to start doing multiple combats on EP. 
Astrid is one of the slowest to train and it takes the longest out of almost all your units. So just on a basis of getting a unit up to speed, she still takes way more effort than other units, and thus she's still worse than them.
We can't really measure a unit going through this process by how they end up stat wise since every units getting juiced by (at max) 100+ laguz reinforcements will be god emperor of the universe, so Astrid's capped stats don't matter anymore in this scenario.

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Even then I'd still rate astrid as one of the worst.

If playing eficiently you 1 or 2 turn the map.
If casual play and you are using the map to juice a unit into usability by getting them tier 3 we have to use another metric to measure how good a unit is. Best for that is how easy it is to get a unit up to par. This is by how slow the EXp funnel starts and how quickly it ends. Even with Paragon Astrid sucks here, since she can only do 1 attack per Ally and enemy phase, 2 at max if using reyson. 
Almost every other unit getting funneled will have 1 range and be able to do Ep fighting. Even if at first it's just eating a counter and not KO'ing back. That's two rounds of combat vs 1 round of combat boosted by apragon for astrid. But as units get stronger, the 1 range unit is able to start doing multiple combats on EP. 
Astrid is one of the slowest to train and it takes the longest out of almost all your units. So just on a basis of getting a unit up to speed, she still takes way more effort than other units, and thus she's still worse than them.
We can't really measure a unit going through this process by how they end up stat wise since every units getting juiced by (at max) 100+ laguz reinforcements will be god emperor of the universe, so Astrid's capped stats don't matter anymore in this scenario.

But once she's promoted (and you can promote her before the first Hawk King map, I've done so and I've never even had the sense to early promote her) you can forge her a lance to use on enemy phase.

[Vicious Sal]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But once she's promoted (and you can promote her before the first Hawk King map, I've done so and I've never even had the sense to early promote her) you can forge her a lance to use on enemy phase.

That is true, but that's the entire point. You have to get Astrid to T3 first before you can even do that. And other units don't need that. For funnelling exp into a unit, Astrid still takes longer and in a more convoluted way than other units, so she's still worse comparatively. With funnelling everyone can be great, so greatness isn't a useful metric to measure the worth of a unit anymore. So then, how easy is it to get the units there, how tedious and long is it? Astrid is still pretty much the most tedious one to do this for, so she still ranks lowest.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Vicious Sal said:

That is true, but that's the entire point. You have to get Astrid to T3 first before you can even do that. And other units don't need that. For funnelling exp into a unit, Astrid still takes longer and in a more convoluted way than other units, so she's still worse comparatively. With funnelling everyone can be great, so greatness isn't a useful metric to measure the worth of a unit anymore. So then, how easy is it to get the units there, how tedious and long is it? Astrid is still pretty much the most tedious one to do this for, so she still ranks lowest.

But once you have funneled exp to her, the result is far better than most units, giving a unit with very reliable 2 range kill power in conjunction with Canto, great stats (if you Parablossom) and the best weapon in the game. And that innate pargaon makes her easier to grow than you might expect (at least before you get to the point where she's reliable enough to give blossom to). The only real rough maps for her are the part 2 maps. Even in Part 3 the first map you can deploy her on (well aside from that one random Geoffrey map) is particularly suited to her talents being a long narrow map with enemies hiding behind cover with lot's of pitfall traps.

[Vicious Sal]

Just now, Jotari said:

But once you have funneled exp to her, the result is far better than most units, giving a unit with very reliable 2 range kill power in conjunction with Canto, great stats (if you Parablossom) and the best weapon in the game. And that innate pargaon makes her easier to grow than you might expect (at least before you get to the point where she's reliable enough to give blossom to). The only real rough maps for her are the part 2 maps. Even in Part 3 the first map you can deploy her on (well aside from that one random Geoffrey map) is particularly suited to her talents being a long narrow map with enemies hiding behind cover with lot's of pitfall traps.

But that doesn't matter at all anymore after granting unit X 100 laguz worth of EXP.  There's only endgame left at that point. If you're funneling a unit to become god emperor of the universe in 4-5, they obviously will kick ass in 4-E. Once you get to the end result,everyone is S tier compared to the scrubs you will fight in the tower. So Astrid has no edge over the other units anymore. 
Canto isn't even that useful in the tower, since you only really use it in 4-E-1 and 4-E-5. E-2 is Bk fight and the south is so small you can just park at the start and let units fall onto you. E-3 and E-4 are rush forward, no canto needed. Her caps are decent, but not amazing compared to the units at your disposal. Double bow is nice, but if you're a funneled unit you're pretty much ORKO'ing anything anyway. And blossom don't matter all that much either since you're able to BEXP a units last few stats when they hit their first caps.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

But that doesn't matter at all anymore after granting unit X 100 laguz worth of EXP.  There's only endgame left at that point. If you're funneling a unit to become god emperor of the universe in 4-5, they obviously will kick ass in 4-E. Once you get to the end result,everyone is S tier compared to the scrubs you will fight in the tower. So Astrid has no edge over the other units anymore. 
Canto isn't even that useful in the tower, since you only really use it in 4-E-1 and 4-E-5. E-2 is Bk fight and the south is so small you can just park at the start and let units fall onto you. E-3 and E-4 are rush forward, no canto needed. Her caps are decent, but not amazing compared to the units at your disposal. Double bow is nice, but if you're a funneled unit you're pretty much ORKO'ing anything anyway. And blossom don't matter all that much either since you're able to BEXP a units last few stats when they hit their first caps.

I think reliable 1-2 range with the best wepaon in the game and canto (and the increased movement from it) is a pretty noticable edge over most of the cast. I also think Blossom does make a pretty big difference, as it lets her hit those stat caps without relying on bexp, which you can save for other units (or if we're bringing bexp into the discussion, she can pretty easily be bexped into tier 3, as you get her, for real use, at a lower level than most competing units so the bonus exp will be worth more to her than the likes of Rolf or Shinon, unless you've just been ignoring them entirely). I'm not claiming Astrid is one of the best units in the game, but I do think she is far better than people give her credit for and once you've leveled her up a few times, the pain of training her is much lower than people think thanks to innate paragon and later parablossom to super charge her growths.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

But once she's promoted (and you can promote her before the first Hawk King map, I've done so and I've never even had the sense to early promote her) you can forge her a lance to use on enemy phase.

Wait, how is Astrid promoting naturally before 4-2? She joins at level 2, so how are you getting her 19 level-ups over the course of 2-3, half of 2-E, 3-9, 3-11, and 3-E? And how many of those are with Blossom (which I don't believe she has access to until 3-11)? Keeping in mind that her enemy-phase performance on all of those maps is basically nil.

[Jotari]

49 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wait, how is Astrid promoting naturally before 4-2? She joins at level 2, so how are you getting her 19 level-ups over the course of 2-3, half of 2-E, 3-9, 3-11, and 3-E? And how many of those are with Blossom (which I don't believe she has access to until 3-11)? Keeping in mind that her enemy-phase performance on all of those maps is basically nil.

That's the thing, it's not nill once you get her a few level ups and a good bow. And probably a few bexp level ups. Promoting her early for lance access is also a very viable option with more reason to do than most units who only gain stats jumping to third tier.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

40 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's the thing, it's not nill once you get her a few level ups and a good bow. And probably a few bexp level ups. Promoting her early for lance access is also a very viable option with more reason to do than most units who only gain stats jumping to third tier.

But only at the edge of enemy ranges, since she can't counter at melee until promotion. For the record, my query wasn't a rhetorical one. I'm honestly not seeing how Astrid could expect to get an average of 4 levels per chapter (especially once the Blossom is applied), assuming somewhat efficient play.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But only at the edge of enemy ranges, since she can't counter at melee until promotion. For the record, my query wasn't a rhetorical one. I'm honestly not seeing how Astrid could expect to get an average of 4 levels per chapter (especially once the Blossom is applied), assuming somewhat efficient play.

It doesn't have to be 4 levels per chapter if you're also providing her bexp. And even if you don't quite reach the promotion level by the first Part 4 map, you can still give her a lance anyway in preparation and let her promote part way through the map.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It doesn't have to be 4 levels per chapter if you're also providing her bexp. And even if you don't quite reach the promotion level by the first Part 4 map, you can still give her a lance anyway in preparation and let her promote part way through the map.

Well that makes more sense; I was assuming BEXP wasn't being used on her to any appreciable degree. Putting aside the question of practicality, though, I know one of your arguments is to give her the Double Bow. But, is Astrid actually the best user of said weapon? She has more movement range and Canto over your Marksmen, sure. But a Marksman can use it to attack from 3-range, thus avoiding the threat of counter-attacks from foes like Levail, the Dragon Laguz, and the Spirits. Whereas, if Astrid isn't killing, then she's taking a counter-attack. It seems like Shinon, or even a trained Rolf, would be better off with this weapon than Astrid. Granted, you could trade it around, but that would require said units to operate in proximity of each other.

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well that makes more sense; I was assuming BEXP wasn't being used on her to any appreciable degree. Putting aside the question of practicality, though, I know one of your arguments is to give her the Double Bow. But, is Astrid actually the best user of said weapon? She has more movement range and Canto over your Marksmen, sure. But a Marksman can use it to attack from 3-range, thus avoiding the threat of counter-attacks from foes like Levail, the Dragon Laguz, and the Spirits. Whereas, if Astrid isn't killing, then she's taking a counter-attack. It seems like Shinon, or even a trained Rolf, would be better off with this weapon than Astrid. Granted, you could trade it around, but that would require said units to operate in proximity of each other.

Well like I said, I'm not claiming Astrid is even among the better characters in the game, just that she's better than people credit her. I would rate Shinon as better than her. Though I'd probably put her as pretty equivalent to Rolf (though my low opinion of Rolf comes mainly from the fact that Shinon exists and does what he does better than any inherent failing of Rolf). To argue though, Astrid caps resistance even without Blossom, so she's able to take a hit pretty reliably well for the pretty magic focused final three chapters. And there's not that many 1-2 physical range units other than dragons to worry about. I'm also pretty sure she has an above average magic growth for a non mage unit, making her one of the few units that can get some reliable use of the Imbue skill (haven't checked the magic stat of all units in the game, but I know Imbue has always come across as pretty impractical for most of the army). In addition to that she also has Sol as a mastery skill (though I think maybe it only works with lances, not sure, it's been a while) for more HP regeneration. So while she might be eating more counter attacks, it's mainly from enemies she's built to fight against and any damage she does sustain can be healed in a variety of ways.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Jotari

[ping]

So the "Lyn in FE6" discussion on page 2 kicked off a Mekkah Let's Play (including a shoutout to @Jotari), which is kinda cool I haven't watched a Mekkah LP in a while, but this one seems interesting, especially since I am curious about the underlying question.

Lyn is transplanted in a overall more beneficial manner than we were discussing - identical Mani Katti stats (which in my opinion are a little better than they "would be" in FE6), but more importantly, she replaces Bors instead of Roy, which means that she'll be able to promote at a reasonable time, which in turn also means that her access to bows will probably be quite powerful.

I was very surprised to see that Lyn with her LynMode bases doesn't double in chapter 1. Well, except for the boss, who she doesn't have perfect hit on and who one-shots her in return. But generic enemies have 6-7 Spd, which means that Lyn needs one or two Spd procs to double them. She actually isn't that much faster than Lance: 9+60% vs. his 8+50%, which is quite different from how they "feel" in their original games.

Shoutout to @OriginalRaisins for bringing up his Hot Take of "Roy is one of the best pre-awakening" lords, too

Edited September 25, 2021 by ping

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, ping said:

So the "Lyn in FE6" discussion on page 2 kicked off a Mekkah Let's Play (including a shoutout to @Jotari), which is kinda cool I haven't watched a Mekkah LP in a while, but this one seems interesting, especially since I am curious about the underlying question.

I'm inspiring the community 🙂 But they didn't take the best addition I made to my version. Lyn as a red head.

I'm playing through the game on my own Lyn mode hack, and as predicted she is really lacking in the durability factor. But Binding Blades lower hit rates are really, really helping her, enemy axe users have hit rates that are like below 20% and even enemy mercenaries are only hovering around 60%. So she is a veritable dodge tank who can deliver reliably accurate, if not powerful, hits, which is valued in Binding Blade. Still though the fact that she's your lord and is so paper thin in terms of durability means that while she can dodge tank, it's pretty nerve racking to have her do so. And I'm still in the Western Isles where Roy typically can still contribute, she's only going to become less effective as I get deeper into the game with her left unpromoted.

 

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

15 hours ago, ping said:

So the "Lyn in FE6" discussion on page 2 kicked off a Mekkah Let's Play (including a shoutout to @Jotari), which is kinda cool

Shoutout to @OriginalRaisins for bringing up his Hot Take of "Roy is one of the best pre-awakening" lords, too

That does all sound very cool, but not enough to actually sit through 40 episodes of 50 minutes apiece.

15 hours ago, ping said:

I was very surprised to see that Lyn with her LynMode bases doesn't double in chapter 1.

Ho ho

Get wrecked

[OriginalRaisins]

On 9/21/2021 at 12:40 PM, Jotari said:

Well like I said, I'm not claiming Astrid is even among the better characters in the game, just that she's better than people credit her.

I read through the whole argument you made and wrote a giant point-by-point rebuttal but then got distracted with streaming :(

In general, you're correct that she's better than most say, if only because the popular opinion of any unit outside the top 10ish of their respective games seems to be "you're a horrible human being if you even consider deploying them". For the most part, if you want to use Astrid and you just make sure that you keep her out of disadvantageous situations and apply her to advantageous situations then she'll be fine. Furthermore, you've identified a combo (paragon + blossom) that makes for some good fun.

That said, outside of her free deployment chapters (2-3, 2-e, and 3-9) she's weaker than the other team members and that's even if your other characters are at base. Furthermore, her Paragon is strong on other units even when it costs points. 3-11 is about the time anyway when you've put crowns on the people you're going to crown and any further promotions you're gonna do are through exp. Hell, her paragon is even better on Calill or Kieran in 3-9 anyway, and if I could remove it and reassign it to another unit in part 2 I would. I want to explore Astrid in part 4 strats but the only runs I'm doing atm are 0% growths and her base stats simply do not do any work in that part of the game.

She's probably bottom 3 units in RD, and definitely bottom 5, but that doesn't mean she's useless. She'll do a little bit in her free maps so just deploy her and use her.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, OriginalRaisins said:

I read through the whole argument you made and wrote a giant point-by-point rebuttal but then got distracted with streaming 😞

In general, you're correct that she's better than most say, if only because the popular opinion of any unit outside the top 10ish of their respective games seems to be "you're a horrible human being if you even consider deploying them". For the most part, if you want to use Astrid and you just make sure that you keep her out of disadvantageous situations and apply her to advantageous situations then she'll be fine. Furthermore, you've identified a combo (paragon + blossom) that makes for some good fun.

That said, outside of her free deployment chapters (2-3, 2-e, and 3-9) she's weaker than the other team members and that's even if your other characters are at base. Furthermore, her Paragon is strong on other units even when it costs points. 3-11 is about the time anyway when you've put crowns on the people you're going to crown and any further promotions you're gonna do are through exp. Hell, her paragon is even better on Calill or Kieran in 3-9 anyway, and if I could remove it and reassign it to another unit in part 2 I would. I want to explore Astrid in part 4 strats but the only runs I'm doing atm are 0% growths and her base stats simply do not do any work in that part of the game.

She's probably bottom 3 units in RD, and definitely bottom 5, but that doesn't mean she's useless. She'll do a little bit in her free maps so just deploy her and use her.

I'd say she's much better than bottom 3 or bottom 5. Maybe bottom 3 or bottom 5 among Beorc, but there's loads of non royal laguz that are basically never worth fielding. Not only because they're hard to grow, but also because they're gained in part 3 when even the argument of strong starting stats that makes them useful for a few maps before dropping off doesn't work because they're competing for slots with the Greil Mercs who are some of the best unit in the game (and they're strong initial stats aren't even that amazing).

[Shadow Mir]

On 9/19/2021 at 5:22 PM, Jotari said:

On topic, my particular unit hot take has always been that Radiant Dawn Astra is far better than people give her credit for. Yeah, she does require some amount of babying, but that babying is really worth it once you give her a few levels, because she's one of the only units in the game that can effectively combo Paragon and Blossom together given her made stat gains. I literally once had an Astrid that had capped all stats by the time she was a level 14 Silver Knight. And to top it all off, she's the only unit that can use the Double Bow (aka the best weapon in the game) in conjunction with canto.

I'm willing to buy that. It helps that Radiant Dawn dealt mages a massive hit in viability, and the only other unit who can use Blossom with Paragon (Geoffrey) disappears until right before the endgame.

Anyways, one of my big unit hot takes is that Lysithea is overrated. She's often touted as one of the best mages in 3H, but the cruel reality is she's nowhere near as great as her fans try to sell you into believing. One big issue she has is the lack of decent power spells until B rank (her strongest spell until then is Miasma Delta; she does get Luna, but its accuracy is cause for concern, and it can't follow up). By contrast, among magically inclined characters, Constance, Hapi, Lorenz, Dorothea, Marianne, Annette, Mercedes, Hubert, Flayn, Hanneman and Linhardt all get something stronger than 5 might before B rank (for the record, that's literally every other magically inclined unit in the game). Her case isn't helped by the fact that she gets no benefit from Warlock, because she exclusively uses dark magic. In the end, Luna and B rank Warp are about her only real calling cards (as I see it, anyway); she generally isn't THAT much better than other mages.

Aside from that, I think Mia is really bad in Path of Radiance. Putting aside the fact that sword infantry are shafted in PoR in general, she struggles to do much of anything in the time she has over Zihark, and Vantage, even though it's at a series peak in this game, doesn't help her much because she only does a piddling amount of damage with her strikes. And even if you don't mind the weaknesses of a swordmaster, Stefan or Zihark is a better choice.

2 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

I read through the whole argument you made and wrote a giant point-by-point rebuttal but then got distracted with streaming 😞

In general, you're correct that she's better than most say, if only because the popular opinion of any unit outside the top 10ish of their respective games seems to be "you're a horrible human being if you even consider deploying them". For the most part, if you want to use Astrid and you just make sure that you keep her out of disadvantageous situations and apply her to advantageous situations then she'll be fine. Furthermore, you've identified a combo (paragon + blossom) that makes for some good fun.

That said, outside of her free deployment chapters (2-3, 2-e, and 3-9) she's weaker than the other team members and that's even if your other characters are at base. Furthermore, her Paragon is strong on other units even when it costs points. 3-11 is about the time anyway when you've put crowns on the people you're going to crown and any further promotions you're gonna do are through exp. Hell, her paragon is even better on Calill or Kieran in 3-9 anyway, and if I could remove it and reassign it to another unit in part 2 I would. I want to explore Astrid in part 4 strats but the only runs I'm doing atm are 0% growths and her base stats simply do not do any work in that part of the game.

She's probably bottom 3 units in RD, and definitely bottom 5, but that doesn't mean she's useless. She'll do a little bit in her free maps so just deploy her and use her.

Maybe among beorc units, but I can't see her being that bad overall when looking at the whole roster. I can't see her as worse than the likes of Lethe or Lyre, whom are never useful.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyways, one of my big unit hot takes is that Lysithea is overrated. She's often touted as one of the best mages in 3H, but the cruel reality is she's nowhere near as great as her fans try to sell you into believing. One big issue she has is the lack of decent power spells until B rank (her strongest spell until then is Miasma Delta; she does get Luna, but its accuracy is cause for concern, and it can't follow up). By contrast, among magically inclined characters, Constance, Hapi, Lorenz, Dorothea, Marianne, Annette, Mercedes, Hubert, Flayn, Hanneman and Linhardt all get something stronger than 5 might before B rank (for the record, that's literally every other magically inclined unit in the game). Her case isn't helped by the fact that she gets no benefit from Warlock, because she exclusively uses dark magic. In the end, Luna and B rank Warp are about her only real calling cards (as I see it, anyway); she generally isn't THAT much better than other mages.

I agree if the thesis is she isn't massively superior to other mages, yeah, it's true, pretty much all the mages are quite useful in this game, but still, of the lot of them I think Lysithea is the best. The lack of powerful spells before B rank doesn't really stop her from easily killing things.

[OriginalRaisins]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Maybe among beorc units, but I can't see her being that bad overall when looking at the whole roster. I can't see her as worse than the likes of Lethe or Lyre, whom are never useful.

Lyre is definitely my bottom 1 if only because she has no maps in which she is free or force deployed. Lethe has 2 maps in 2-2 and 2-e, and she does pretty great in both of those to be honest. I use her shove utility pretty often in 2-e and often use her to hold a chokepoint or clean up units on the middleground in preparation for the attack on Ludveck and the dracoshield. Lethe's combat is also WAY better on her 2 free maps than Astrid's is in her 3 free maps.

My bottom 10 (weakest unit in the game at number 1) would probably go something like

1. Lyre
2. Kyza
3. Rolf
4. Astrid
5. Pelleas
6. Makalov
7. Meg
8. Aran
9. Danved
10. Fiona

Note that in an average playthrough, Lyre and Kyza are pretty much the only units I will never use, though I often choose to kill Pelleas just because I personally don't like him. My judgment is somewhat clouded by 0% growths. I also tend to rate laguz more highly than most people but only because I make effort to manage their gauge and most Laguz are actually pretty strong from their joining map and bases, Lethe Ranulf and Vika included.

By the way, this is just comparing the units against your other units. If you want to use any unit in the game, just keep them out of disadvantageous situations and put them into advantageous situations and I guarantee they'll work. My very first playthrough I trained up Lyre and brought her to the tower (I liked Gatrie and wanted him to have his catgirl gf from the base convo in chapter 3-2) and she currently holds my personal record for most damage done in one attack (rend good). I've also used Kyza on a hard mode ignorance run and he ends up just fine. RD gives you the tools to make pretty much any unit passably good on any difficulty, but the units above will definitely take loads of investment to do what other characters can do for less. I only post this line to answer any responses that go "well I trained x unit and they turned out great" because you're right, they will turn out great if you train them.

Lyre and Kyza in particular I rate very low because they are some of the few units in the game who have zero maps where they are force deployed or free to deploy (ie you have as many units as deployment slots). The other such units are Caineghis, Giffca, Renning, Gareth, and Nasir but all of those guys are really good. Hence every time you put Lyre or Kyza on the map you are doing so at the expense of a (potentially) more useful unit. Literally every other unit in the game either has a map where they are force deployed, in which case you should figure out how to best use them even if they're weak, or at least one map where they are free to deploy, in which case they are literally competing against an empty square. The only time I can think of where it's definitely better to have an empty square would be something like Meg and Fiona on 3-6, since they have decent utility in a later map and can't contribute at all at the moment, so I undeploy them to keep them safe.

Edited September 26, 2021 by OriginalRaisins

[AnonymousSpeed]

4 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

My very first playthrough I trained up Lyre and brought her to the tower (I liked Gatrie and wanted him to have his catgirl gf from the base convo in chapter 3-2) and she currently holds my personal record for most damage done in one attack (rend good).

Immeasurably commendable move here, good sir. It is a virgin move to train a bad unit because she's your waifu, but a Chad maneuver to train a bad unit so your favorite bro can get some pussy.

4 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

If you want to use any unit in the game, just keep them out of disadvantageous situations and put them into advantageous situations and I guarantee they'll work.

Very well put. The defense is almost a tautology, the true question is how many advantageous situations they get.

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

The lack of powerful spells before B rank doesn't really stop her from easily killing things.

Lysithea also hits B rank fairly quickly because of Mastermind, and hits B Faith much easier than your other warpers can hit A Faith.

***

You know, I've been thinking about Garret again. What's another mid-level FE6 unit that would be interesting to debate in comparison to him? Raigh, maybe?

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Immeasurably commendable move here, good sir. It is a virgin move to train a bad unit because she's your waifu, but a Chad maneuver to train a bad unit so your favorite bro can get some pussy.

Very well put. The defense is almost a tautology, the true question is how many advantageous situations they get.

Lysithea also hits B rank fairly quickly because of Mastermind, and hits B Faith much easier than your other warpers can hit A Faith.

***

You know, I've been thinking about Garret again. What's another mid-level FE6 unit that would be interesting to debate in comparison to him? Raigh, maybe?

Anyone have any justification for using Dayan? He always seemed really poor to me. Not because there's anything particularly wrong with him, but more so because to get him it requires you having trained up Shin and Sue, of which Sue is a pretty decent unit and Shin is absolutely top tier already, leaving little niche for Dayan to fill.

[AnonymousSpeed]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Anyone have any justification for using Dayan? He always seemed really poor to me. Not because there's anything particularly wrong with him, but more so because to get him it requires you having trained up Shin and Sue, of which Sue is a pretty decent unit and Shin is absolutely top tier already, leaving little niche for Dayan to fill.

I don't know, I don't even think he gets a triangle attack. He can rescue-drop, not as well as Juno since he doesn't fly, but it's something. Bows are good for fighting wyverns, always good in FE6. It's very possible you only trained up only one of Shin or Sue, or perhaps that one died, at which point he'd make a good filler unit, I guess.