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I would like to debate units


AnonymousSpeed
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13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Anyone have any justification for using Dayan?

Dayan's really good. He has excellent bases and weapon ranks and can take on enemies in 21-23. In particular, he has killing edge rank, silver bow rank, and killer bow rank. With these three weapons he can usually take on the more dangerous enemies with ease. "Training" Sue or Shin isn't as big a deal, they just have to get more exp than Shanna and Tate. While both the pegasi are fine units, if you are intending to go to sacae anyway (the LTC does exactly this) it's not too difficult to get the nomads more exp than the pegasi.

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I know that I've fielded base level Klein in chapter 21 for some Silver Bow and/or Brave Bow utility, so I don't know why I wouldn't field Dayan after going through Sacae.

Dayan doubles Wyvern Lords (20 Spd vs. their 14-16 AS) with a Silver Bow, doesn't get doubled on EP if he needs to use the Brave Bow on PP (he keeps 17 Spd, compared to Klein's 8 and Igrene's 10), and he has horse utility. You might have two great Nomad Troopers already if you went to Sacae, but having three highly mobile bow users that can also help rescue/drop your foot units isn't a bad thing at all.

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6 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Lyre is definitely my bottom 1 if only because she has no maps in which she is free or force deployed. Lethe has 2 maps in 2-2 and 2-e, and she does pretty great in both of those to be honest. I use her shove utility pretty often in 2-e and often use her to hold a chokepoint or clean up units on the middleground in preparation for the attack on Ludveck and the dracoshield. Lethe's combat is also WAY better on her 2 free maps than Astrid's is in her 3 free maps.

My bottom 10 (weakest unit in the game at number 1) would probably go something like

  1. Lyre
  2. Kyza
  3. Rolf
  4. Astrid
  5. Pelleas
  6. Makalov
  7. Meg
  8. Aran
  9. Danved
  10. Fiona

Note that in an average playthrough, Lyre and Kyza are pretty much the only units I will never use, though I often choose to kill Pelleas just because I personally don't like him. My judgment is somewhat clouded by 0% growths. I also tend to rate laguz more highly than most people but only because I make effort to manage their gauge and most Laguz are actually pretty strong from their joining map and bases, Lethe Ranulf and Vika included.

By the way, this is just comparing the units against your other units. If you want to use any unit in the game, just keep them out of disadvantageous situations and put them into advantageous situations and I guarantee they'll work. My very first playthrough I trained up Lyre and brought her to the tower (I liked Gatrie and wanted him to have his catgirl gf from the base convo in chapter 3-2) and she currently holds my personal record for most damage done in one attack (rend good). I've also used Kyza on a hard mode ignorance run and he ends up just fine. RD gives you the tools to make pretty much any unit passably good on any difficulty, but the units above will definitely take loads of investment to do what other characters can do for less. I only post this line to answer any responses that go "well I trained x unit and they turned out great" because you're right, they will turn out great if you train them.

Lyre and Kyza in particular I rate very low because they are some of the few units in the game who have zero maps where they are force deployed or free to deploy (ie you have as many units as deployment slots). The other such units are Caineghis, Giffca, Renning, Gareth, and Nasir but all of those guys are really good. Hence every time you put Lyre or Kyza on the map you are doing so at the expense of a (potentially) more useful unit. Literally every other unit in the game either has a map where they are force deployed, in which case you should figure out how to best use them even if they're weak, or at least one map where they are free to deploy, in which case they are literally competing against an empty square. The only time I can think of where it's definitely better to have an empty square would be something like Meg and Fiona on 3-6, since they have decent utility in a later map and can't contribute at all at the moment, so I undeploy them to keep them safe.

Honestly, I'd say Lethe is not much better than Lyre, because she has all the weaknesses that being a cat has, and her bases are only marginally better than Lyre's for it. She honestly felt more like a liability than an asset in her part 2 chapters, too. *shrug*

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Anyone have any justification for using Dayan? He always seemed really poor to me. Not because there's anything particularly wrong with him, but more so because to get him it requires you having trained up Shin and Sue, of which Sue is a pretty decent unit and Shin is absolutely top tier already, leaving little niche for Dayan to fill.

Honestly, I'd say being great against wyverns is plenty, given that chapter 21 spams them like crazy.

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On 9/26/2021 at 4:15 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Immeasurably commendable move here, good sir. It is a virgin move to train a bad unit because she's your waifu, but a Chad maneuver to train a bad unit so your favorite bro can get some pussy.

I'm just here for the double-entendre.

On 9/26/2021 at 11:32 AM, OriginalRaisins said:

My bottom 10 (weakest unit in the game at number 1) would probably go something like

  1. Lyre
  2. Kyza
  3. Rolf
  4. Astrid
  5. Pelleas
  6. Makalov
  7. Meg
  8. Aran
  9. Danved
  10. Fiona

Ooh, interesting list. Here's what mine would be, from bad to worst.

10. Vika. She's absolute trash when returning in Part IV, but what about Part I? Even there, she's only decent. Her mobility is good, but she's not one-rounding the foes. And her reverted durability is awful.

9. Pelleas. He's around only for Part IV, with pretty poor movement and stats. Staves upon promotion are nice, but a hard reach without a Master Crown.

8. Astrid. She's in a fair few chapters, and built-in Paragon is nice. But she'll have a hard time getting any kill that's not hand-delivered to her.

7. Kyza. Imagine a generic Tiger became playable, and you have Kyza. None of his stats are that bad when transformed, but neither are any strong in the way Laguz require to stand out.

6. Nasir. He's around just for two maps. He can be a great choice for those maps, with high Resistance and White Pool support, but that's it.

5. Sephiran. Literally only there for the last map, with no blessed tome. He can provide staff support (or use a pre-blessed Rexaura or Balberith), but it's very brief.

4. Gareth. Like Nasir, but he's not a safe bring on the fourth floor. Blood Tide may be the even stronger support skill, albeit one Ena offers as well.

3. Meg. She's a free deploy early on, with solid DB availability. But her stats and movement are poor from Day 1, and there's little motivation to train her in this EXP-starved army.

2. Fiona. Having a horse can be nice, but her Part I availability (and training opportunity) is basically nothing. She can become strong, but her base stats are dismal.

1. Lyre. She can double, and her availability is not atrocious. And those are the only vaguely positive things I have to say about her.

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59 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

1. Lyre. She can double, and her availability is not atrocious. And those are the only vaguely positive things I have to say about her.

She's not even good at doubling. She has base 22 Spd and enemies in her joining map average ~20 Spd, with even Sword Generals hitting 19 Spd. Some enemies in 3-4 can hit 21 Spd and by 3-8 (her 3rd available map) Warriors and Halberdiers are regularly hitting 21 Spd so she needs not just one, but two Spd level ups to double them.

For as trash as Meg and Fiona are, at least they can take a strong forge, be fed kills consistently (aka no transform gauge), and level up fast.

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1 hour ago, Florete said:

She's not even good at doubling. She has base 22 Spd and enemies in her joining map average ~20 Spd, with even Sword Generals hitting 19 Spd. Some enemies in 3-4 can hit 21 Spd and by 3-8 (her 3rd available map) Warriors and Halberdiers are regularly hitting 21 Spd so she needs not just one, but two Spd level ups to double them.

For as trash as Meg and Fiona are, at least they can take a strong forge, be fed kills consistently (aka no transform gauge), and level up fast.

Damn, I somehow have false memories of her doubling. Lyre's entire existence is somewhere between baffling and bewildering. Someone genuinely signed off on Lyre. They saw her bases, her growth rates, and her class, and said "this is fine. Having this unit exist, and be available to the player, will in some manner enhance the player's experience." Truly, they operate on a higher plane of mental activity than us mere mortals.

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm just here for the double-entendre.

You're gonna have a blast with the second part of this post.

9 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Damn, I somehow have false memories of her doubling. Lyre's entire existence is somewhere between baffling and bewildering. Someone genuinely signed off on Lyre. They saw her bases, her growth rates, and her class, and said "this is fine. Having this unit exist, and be available to the player, will in some manner enhance the player's experience." Truly, they operate on a higher plane of mental activity than us mere mortals.

>be me
>fe10 dev
>assume the player will ironman the game
>think about them losing units
>image what holes in their party will need to be filled by that point in the game
>give them Lyre who fills none of them
>laugh at players with dead units having to use this crappy unit

Git gub scrublord.

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7 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

>be me
>fe10 dev
>assume the player will ironman the game
>think about them losing units
>image what holes in their party will need to be filled by that point in the game
>give them Lyre who fills none of them
>laugh at players with dead units having to use this crappy unit

Git gub scrublord.

Oh god oh frick it was AnonymousSpeed all along. What's next, were you responsible for Sophia? Or how about Marisa? Did you trick Kaga into making Miranda, thus getting our Lord and Savior fired from IS?

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Just now, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Oh god oh frick it was AnonymousSpeed all along. What's next, were you responsible for Sophia? Or how about Marisa? Did you trick Kaga into making Miranda, thus getting our Lord and Savior fired from IS?

That's right, it was me all a long. As a 6-year-old monolingual American child leaving in the southeast, created Lyre just to mess with people. At age 3 I designed Marisa to be the worst unit ever created with literally nothing going for her at all besides being kind of hot I guess (I was a weird kid). When I was a baby in my first year of life, I created Sophia and Wendy just to mess with waifu-lovers. And as an unborn child I produced every detail of Miranda, every stat, every pixel of her mugshot, for the express purpose of getting Kaga fired because I thought it would be funny. And I was right. It was hilarious.

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44 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Damn, I somehow have false memories of her doubling. Lyre's entire existence is somewhere between baffling and bewildering. Someone genuinely signed off on Lyre. They saw her bases, her growth rates, and her class, and said "this is fine. Having this unit exist, and be available to the player, will in some manner enhance the player's experience." Truly, they operate on a higher plane of mental activity than us mere mortals.

Well, my numbers were for hard mode and the devs probably prioritize easy and normal more when it comes to balancing. She's still bad there, for sure, but in a less egregious way that at least makes her seem like a believable Est-type.

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5 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

You're gonna have a blast with the second part of this post.

>be me
>fe10 dev
>assume the player will ironman the game
>think about them losing units
>image what holes in their party will need to be filled by that point in the game
>give them Lyre who fills none of them
>laugh at players with dead units having to use this crappy unit

Git gub scrublord.

So you have revealed yourself at last. You aren't AnonymousSpeed, you are...Lyre Speed!

To real talk, even assuming she's a replacement unit is a bit iffy for her role. Sure you get her mid game, but it's mid game after an army swap. How many units are they expecting the player to lose in the first four chapters of part 3? And it's not just the Greil Mercs that have to die, they give you a bunch of Part 2 units just too chapters earlier like Brom and Haar. And just in general, Lethe exists and is gained the same chapter. You'd need multiple tpk before deploying Lyre is remotely considered needed, and if someone's getting to that point on an iron man, well I question how they even managed to clear Part 1 and have little confidence in their ability to finish the game.

5 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

That's right, it was me all a long. As a 6-year-old monolingual American child leaving in the southeast, created Lyre just to mess with people. At age 3 I designed Marisa to be the worst unit ever created with literally nothing going for her at all besides being kind of hot I guess (I was a weird kid). When I was a baby in my first year of life, I created Sophia and Wendy just to mess with waifu-lovers. And as an unborn child I produced every detail of Miranda, every stat, every pixel of her mugshot, for the express purpose of getting Kaga fired because I thought it would be funny. And I was right. It was hilarious.

Wow...you are much younger than I was expecting.

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13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

To real talk, even assuming she's a replacement unit is a bit iffy for her role. Sure you get her mid game, but it's mid game after an army swap. How many units are they expecting the player to lose in the first four chapters of part 3? And it's not just the Greil Mercs that have to die, they give you a bunch of Part 2 units just too chapters earlier like Brom and Haar. And just in general, Lethe exists and is gained the same chapter. You'd need multiple tpk before deploying Lyre is remotely considered needed, and if someone's getting to that point on an iron man, well I question how they even managed to clear Part 1 and have little confidence in their ability to finish the game.

Also, she struggles to do anything in her joining chapter, which means IF a player lost that many units, she'd be even worse off by that point to the point where leaving her benched would be the wiser move. And then you factor in how hard it is to level up laguz units...

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, she struggles to do anything in her joining chapter, which means IF a player lost that many units, she'd be even worse off by that point to the point where leaving her benched would be the wiser move. And then you factor in how hard it is to level up laguz units...

There's no real advantage to leaving her benched, if it's a situation where you have no one else to deploy. At the very least she can soak up an attack that might otherwise have targeted another unit. She doesn't contribute at all if you leave her benched. Unless there's some base conversation with her that I can't remember that you should keep her alive for in order to get a decent item.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

There's no real advantage to leaving her benched, if it's a situation where you have no one else to deploy. At the very least she can soak up an attack that might otherwise have targeted another unit. She doesn't contribute at all if you leave her benched. Unless there's some base conversation with her that I can't remember that you should keep her alive for in order to get a decent item.

In fact, there are a couple: 3-7's "Catfight" grants the Howl scroll, while 3-8's "Siblings" offers the Daunt scroll. Of the two, the latter is a solid skill, while the former is probably better off sold. Still a motive to keep her alive at least through 3-8.

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50 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

In fact, there are a couple: 3-7's "Catfight" grants the Howl scroll, while 3-8's "Siblings" offers the Daunt scroll. Of the two, the latter is a solid skill, while the former is probably better off sold. Still a motive to keep her alive at least through 3-8.

I know every unit in the game (barring Lehran) has at least one base convo, does every unit in the game aside from the last few gained in Part 4 provide some kind of item via base convos? I think it might be the case, or at least it seems pretty close to it.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

There's no real advantage to leaving her benched, if it's a situation where you have no one else to deploy. At the very least she can soak up an attack that might otherwise have targeted another unit. She doesn't contribute at all if you leave her benched. Unless there's some base conversation with her that I can't remember that you should keep her alive for in order to get a decent item.

There are two with Lyre, as said earlier. Anyway, from my point of view, when the alternative is deploying someone that is so crappy they probably won't justify the babying they need and would likely be a liability rather than an asset just to fill a deployment slot, I'd consider it better to continue investing in the decent units you have left. Also, I'd have to agree that if you lost so many units that you'd consider deploying Lyre, I'd have to wonder how in the name of Mila you even passed part 1 in the first place....

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10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

There are two with Lyre, as said earlier. Anyway, from my point of view, when the alternative is deploying someone that is so crappy they probably won't justify the babying they need and would likely be a liability rather than an asset just to fill a deployment slot, I'd consider it better to continue investing in the decent units you have left. Also, I'd have to agree that if you lost so many units that you'd consider deploying Lyre, I'd have to wonder how in the name of Mila you even passed part 1 in the first place....

But my point is that you can not baby unit but still make use of deploying them by having them rescue, shove, or even just block take hits for other units. If you're playing iron man and have no personal attachment to keeping a unit alive (or no future gains like the base convo situation we have here, but presume I mean after that) and there is a deployment slot open, you can still make use of a unit. Another action available on your turn is not going to be a detriment. You don't have to baby units. You can simply just let them die.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I know every unit in the game (barring Lehran) has at least one base convo, does every unit in the game aside from the last few gained in Part 4 provide some kind of item via base convos? I think it might be the case, or at least it seems pretty close to it.

Meg and Zihark each only have one "must be alive for it" base conversation (the same one, in fact), and it doesn't provide you with anything of value. It's a shame we never got a potential Meg-Brom or Zihark-Lethe convo in Part IV. 

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, I'd have to agree that if you lost so many units that you'd consider deploying Lyre, I'd have to wonder how in the name of Mila you even passed part 1 in the first place....

Maybe they were all trying to be a hero, and went after the Black Knight in III-7?

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14 hours ago, Jotari said:

So you have revealed yourself at last. You aren't AnonymousSpeed, you are...Lyre Speed!

Wow...you are much younger than I was expecting.

My age is quite literally her base speed when transformed.

Does this my shitpost status is...advanced?

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

To real talk, even assuming she's a replacement unit is a bit iffy for her role. Sure you get her mid game, but it's mid game after an army swap. How many units are they expecting the player to lose in the first four chapters of part 3?

The later you have to start using her, the worse she is by comparison to the enemies.

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23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

That's right, it was me all a long. As a 6-year-old monolingual American child leaving in the southeast, created Lyre just to mess with people. At age 3 I designed Marisa to be the worst unit ever created with literally nothing going for her at all besides being kind of hot I guess (I was a weird kid). When I was a baby in my first year of life, I created Sophia and Wendy just to mess with waifu-lovers. And as an unborn child I produced every detail of Miranda, every stat, every pixel of her mugshot, for the express purpose of getting Kaga fired because I thought it would be funny. And I was right. It was hilarious.

 

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

My age is quite literally her base speed when transformed.

Those dates don’t match up lol. The ages you listed you were for each game puts your DOB at 01, going by the release dates of the games. But your age now puts your DOB at 99.

 

On topic,

*I agree that Dayan is good because 1RKOing WLs at base is good.

*Garret is pretty good because his 30% Crit boost actually gives him a higher chance of 1RKOing enemies than a lot of other units have. He can take hits pretty well with his high HP. He doesn’t double much but only gets doubled by particularly fast enemies so it’s not much of an issue for the most part. His accuracy is a little low without WT but is actually pretty good against Lance enemies making him actually good against some of the most dangerous enemies in the game. Overall I think Garret is underrated.

*FE6 Axes are better than people claim, the weapons and the users. Not even because I think they’re particularly good but they’re not as bad as a lot of people claim.

Wade is pretty bad and Lott isn’t great, but Dorcas and Bartre aren’t good either. Lott and Wade are arguably better for a few reasons, they can help out early on by 1RKOing Soldiers and have the almost unique use of being able to 1RKO Ch4 super Cavs with a Halberd, the Hit rate is low yeah, but 1RKOing these enemies is big deal regardless. Their low Spd isn’t as much of an issue in this game as it is for Dorcas and Bartre in FE7 because doubling and 1RKOing enemies in FE6 HM is much harder for units in general, whereas in FE7, most units can get to a point of doubling most enemies so if Dorcas and Bartre don’t, it stands out more as a problem. Bows are also much better than in FE7. They only get E rank on promotion but it’s still better. I don’t think the primary Axe users in FE8 are very good either.

Garret is actually pretty good, not as good as Hawkeye or Geitz, but pretty good. So is FE6 Bartre. And Echidna too.

Axes are generally inaccurate but there are situations when Axes are worth. They’re not as good as they are in FE7-9, but I’d argue that they’re not as bad as Swords and especially Bows are in those games. Axes have legitimate uses in FE6. Do you promote Dieck and then have him stick to only Swords? No, you make use of both Swords and Axes depending on the situation. 1-2 range isn’t as overpowered as it is in FE7-9 but it’s still a nice option to have. Axes are good against Lance enemies. Halberd again can be useful against Cavaliers later on like in Ch 13. Armads is good. Same mostly applies to Paladins though they’re mostly better off with Horseslayers than Halberds. Axes are still worth using in plenty of situations.

Overall I think the weapon types are balanced better in FE6 than in most FE games.

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16 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Those dates don’t match up lol. The ages you listed you were for each game puts your DOB at 01, going by the release dates of the games. But your age now puts your DOB at 99.

Oh, sorry. I thought that the game came out in 2000 for some reason.

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3 hours ago, Whisky said:

Overall I think the weapon types are balanced better in FE6 than in most FE games.

I agree, axes have their uses and they give you a couple of important axes early on that are very useful, especially because armor slayers are more rare and should be used on the bosses while hammers are better for the generics. Halberd is good as well.

It definitely is about the users more, it's why Marcus has a great performance with axes in the early game where wade and lot struggle more.

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