I would like to debate units

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Whisky said:

*FE6 Axes are better than people claim, the weapons and the users. Not even because I think they’re particularly good but they’re not as bad as a lot of people claim.

Wade is pretty bad and Lott isn’t great, but Dorcas and Bartre aren’t good either. Lott and Wade are arguably better for a few reasons, they can help out early on by 1RKOing Soldiers and have the almost unique use of being able to 1RKO Ch4 super Cavs with a Halberd, the Hit rate is low yeah, but 1RKOing these enemies is big deal regardless. Their low Spd isn’t as much of an issue in this game as it is for Dorcas and Bartre in FE7 because doubling and 1RKOing enemies in FE6 HM is much harder for units in general, whereas in FE7, most units can get to a point of doubling most enemies so if Dorcas and Bartre don’t, it stands out more as a problem. Bows are also much better than in FE7. They only get E rank on promotion but it’s still better. I don’t think the primary Axe users in FE8 are very good either.

Garret is actually pretty good, not as good as Hawkeye or Geitz, but pretty good. So is FE6 Bartre. And Echidna too.

Axes are generally inaccurate but there are situations when Axes are worth. They’re not as good as they are in FE7-9, but I’d argue that they’re not as bad as Swords and especially Bows are in those games. Axes have legitimate uses in FE6. Do you promote Dieck and then have him stick to only Swords? No, you make use of both Swords and Axes depending on the situation. 1-2 range isn’t as overpowered as it is in FE7-9 but it’s still a nice option to have. Axes are good against Lance enemies. Halberd again can be useful against Cavaliers later on like in Ch 13. Armads is good. Same mostly applies to Paladins though they’re mostly better off with Horseslayers than Halberds. Axes are still worth using in plenty of situations.

Overall I think the weapon types are balanced better in FE6 than in most FE games.

Yeah, I have to agree with a lot of this. My current playthrough I early promoted Lot because I was having a lot of trouble with lance enemies and Rutget didn't need the boost, and now he's been one of the linchpins of my entire army. Not only does this game throw lance enemies at you like it's Shadow Dragon, but Warriors high HP makes them quite reliable and tanky in a game where enemies can hit pretty hard. And even just iron bow use is great since bows have accuracy and wyvern effectiveness, which are two very desired traits in Binding Blade. Batre also even comes with D rank bows and his high con lets him use Steel Bows without any speed loss.

[AnonymousSpeed]

3 hours ago, Whisky said:

@AnonymousSpeed

So what are some of your positions on units so we can know what to debate you on?

I think Niime is better than Percival. I don't know if Saul is better than Clarine, but there are some arguments for it. I'd also like to throw my lot in with the "FE6 Axes Good" club.

If I'm allowed to jump around between games a bit, I think Garcia is quite good as well.

[JimmyBeans]

On 10/2/2021 at 1:14 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I think Niime is better than Percival

After recently beating FE6, I can't find myself arguing against this. Perceval is really good, but he has some hit rate issues in the later chapters, making you pray for crits to one-round (Which is kind of FE6 in a nutshell).

Meanwhile Niime has more staff range than all my healers that I have trained up to this point because their base magic is so low. Unless you get really lucky Niime just shows up with the highest magic, I have a newfound respect for her.

Edited October 3, 2021 by JimmyBeans

[Whisky]

On 10/2/2021 at 3:14 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't know if Saul is better than Clarine, but there are some arguments for it.

Most of the tier lists I’ve seen actually do put Saul above Clarine for higher Staff rank and better use of Warp. I could go either way, they’re both good.

On 10/2/2021 at 3:14 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I think Niime is better than Percival.

I’m curious what angle you would take to argue this. Percival is one of the strongest units you get. He’s easy to recruit and joins you free of investment with really good stats (especially in HM but his stats are good on NM too), he has high weapon ranks, and he’s a Paladin meaning he has high Move and Rescue/Drop utility. He’s regularly rated Top tier from what I’ve seen in tier lists and never really had any reason to disagree with it. The guy really doesn’t fail to impress. He’s know as the “strongest warrior in Eturia” for good reason.

Niime is good but I don’t know if she’s that good. She has a few cool tricks she can do, but I’d generally consider Percival better. If your argument is from an LTC or speed run metric then you’re probably just correct and I can’t disagree, but from a more general ‘make the game easier’ sort of metric (which is more subjective and harder to judge), Niime is still good but it’s hard to beat out someone as great as Percival. The guy really is capable of a lot. Even with Warping, you need a strong unit to Warp forward, and Percival is a great candidate for that.

On 10/2/2021 at 3:14 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

If I'm allowed to jump around between games a bit, I think Garcia is quite good as well.

Give me some time to prepare for this one and I’ll take it.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Whisky

[AnonymousSpeed]

23 hours ago, Whisky said:

Most of the tier lists I’ve seen actually do put Saul above Clarine for higher Staff rank and better use of Warp. I could go either way, they’re both good.

Oh yeah, certainly, both are great. I haven't checked the tier lists recently, so I was unaware of that, but it makes perfect sense.

23 hours ago, Whisky said:

I’m curious what angle you would take to argue this. Percival is one of the strongest units you get. He’s easy to recruit and joins you free of investment with really good stats (especially in HM but his stats are good on NM too), he has high weapon ranks, and he’s a Paladin meaning he has high Move and Rescue/Drop utility. He’s regularly rated Top tier from what I’ve seen in tier lists and never really had any reason to disagree with it. The guy really doesn’t fail to impress. He’s know as the “strongest warrior in Eturia” for good reason.

Niime is good but I don’t know if she’s that good. She has a few cool tricks she can do, but I’d generally consider Percival better. If your argument is from an LTC or speed run metric then you’re probably just correct and I can’t disagree, but from a more general ‘make the game easier’ sort of metric (which is more subjective and harder to judge), Niime is still good but it’s hard to beat out someone as great as Percival. The guy really is capable of a lot. Even with Warping, you need a strong unit to Warp forward, and Percival is a great candidate for that.

Well, @JimmyBeans put forward some good arguments above, and you can actually get some of my opinions on this particular comparison here. The thread's a bit old so I'm not sure I still stand by all the same arguments, but I remember some of the premises still stand. Even in a general "make the game easier" sense, Niime is still very powerful because it's convenient to warp-skip maps. Assuming that's your strategy, you just need a warper, Roy, and a boss-killer, and Niime is clearly the best warper while several units can take out bosses just as well as Perceval can.

23 hours ago, Whisky said:

Give me some time to prepare for this one and I’ll take it.

Excellent, I am very excited.

[Whisky]

@AnonymousSpeed

Alright, I was doing a playthrough of Sacred Stones to prepare for this debate, I was planning on finishing it but I don't have enough time right now and don't want to make you wait any longer to start the debate, I can always finish the playthrough and add more to the debate later.

So, here's my thoughts on Garcia thus far:

(When referring to a unit’s stats at a certain level, I am referring to their average stats, I am putting this here so I don’t need to specify “on average” who knows how many times throughout this analysis)

Garcia joins in Ch 2 with the following base stats:

Garcia

HP: 28

Str: 8

Skl: 7

Spd: 7

Luc: 3

Def: 5

Res: 1

Con: 14

Those are actually pretty good base stats. Good bulk with his high HP. Pretty good offense, 7 Spd isn’t bad, it’s the same as Franz (though Franz could have more by now). Vanessa only has 5 base AS with a Javelin while Garcia doesn’t lose any AS from a Hand Axe. I think Garcia is easily one of the strongest units for the early game, even if that is mostly due to a lack of competition. You don’t get a lot of strong units early on, but regardless of the reason, Garcia definitely seems worth using early on, but may have a hard time keeping up with your other units throughout the game with his 20% Spd growth as your units gain levels and you get more stronger units later on.

Chapter 3

These are the most common enemies in this chapter:

Lvl 3 Brigands: 23-24 HP, 7-8 Str, 2-3 Skl, 5-7 Spd, 0-1 Lck, 3-4 Def, 0-1 Res

Garcia can’t double them and won’t 1RKO most of them, but most of your other units won’t 1RKO them either. Erika isn’t strong enough to 2HKO them. Franz probably won’t double any of them and probably won’t even 2HKO them. Even Gilliam will only 2RKO the weaker ones but not the stronger ones. Garcia can 2RKO even the stronger ones at base level making him offensively stronger than other non-Seth units. It might be worth mentioning that if your other units aren’t strong enough to finish off an enemy after Garcia has weakened it, then his higher damage output might not matter as much as you would think since it could still take 3 units to kill the enemy anyway. But of course there will be opportunities for his higher damage to come in handy such as countering a couple of enemies on EP and then being able to finish one off himself on the next PP. One of these Brigands has a Steel Axe weighing it down, which means that Garcia can probably double and 1RKO it, unless it rolls its highest possible Spd. There’s also a couple Brigands with Hand Axes, Garcia might be able to 2HKO them with a Hand Axe but even if he can’t, having the option to counter them on EP is nice, and he’s more effective in doing so than Franz or your other non-Seth units with a Javelin. Same thing with the Archer. Garcia will have Hit rate issues against the Merc but is otherwise still offensively superior to most of your other units. Erika and Vanessa fail to 2RKO. Defensively Garcia is also stronger than most of your other units with his high HP. Brigands will have low Hit rates against Erika and Colm, but if they do get hit they’re taking a lot of damage. The only units to not get 2RKOed by Brigands are Seth, Gilliam, Garcia, and Franz. The steel Axe guy will 1HKO Ross and 2HKO Franz, while Garcia, Gilliam, and Seth are the only ones that can survive more than 1 hit from him.

Chapter 4

The most common enemy type here are Revenants, which Garcia 1RKOs at base. Franz needs to be around level 6 in order to 1RKO them reliably. Gilliam is too slow to double them, even if he gained a point of Spd already, he will only be able to double about half of them. Garcia is about equal to Franz defensively, with only Gilliam and Seth being better. He can also 1RKO Mogalls with a Hand Axe at base. Franz and Vanessa can also 1RKO them at base with a Javelin, so Garcia is tied with them but still pretty good and can take more hits than Franz. Garcia isn’t good against the Bonewalkers since they use Swords though. Garcia can even 1RKO the boss at base level by using a Steel Axe, the only unit that can do that besides obviously Seth. I’d say he’s probably your 2^nd best unit here.

Chapter 5

The most common enemies are Soldiers which Garcia is great against, 1RKOing them at base level and being stronger defensively than anyone except Gilliam and Seth. Franz can also 1RKO them at base, but probably no one else can yet (besides Seth). The Fighters are similar to the Brigands from Ch3 in that most units won’t be able to 1RKO them but Garcia has an easier time 2RKOing them than most units since he can do so at base (he needs to gain a point of Str in order to do so with Iron, which he probably will have but even if he hasn’t yet, Steel axes are already available). Archers, Garcia can’t 1RKO but can counter them on EP, and it isn’t easy for other units to 1RKO them either, especially on EP. Joshua is better offensively against some enemies but is weaker defensively with lower HP and has no 1-2 range.

Chapter 6

Soldiers are again the most common enemy type which is good for Garcia. Franz is the only unit (besides Seth) who is arguably better than Garcia, and he’s generally considered the 2^nd best unit in the game after Seth, so it’s really not bad to be behind him. There’s a Fighter with a Steel Axe that Garcia can 1RKO at base (so can Franz and Joshua). Garcia is better than most units against the Armor Knights, possibly 1RKOing them if he gained a few points of Str, while no one else comes as close except Erika with the Rapier (and obviously Seth) but she’s weak against them defensively, even Artur and Lute probably won’t without more investment. He’s probably pretty good against the Cavaliers too as long as they use Lances.

Chapter 7

Garcia is pretty good against Steel Axe Fighters, but won’t double the Iron Axe ones. Franz and Joshua are probably the only units better against them (Seth), and Joshua may need to use his Killing Edge to 1RKO them (not with a Crit). There’s still a few Soldiers in this chapter too. Garcia can counter Archers with a Hand Axe, and most other units won’t be able to 1RKO them, probably just Seth and Franz. Maybe Joshua, but even he would have a hard time 1RKOing the ones that roll high HP and Def. Garcia is still bulkier than most of your other units too. Garcia isn’t good at killing Mages since they’re frail enough for other units to 1RKO and too fast for him to double. If he’s high enough level he could 1HKO them with a Steel Axe but I don’t know if he’ll be that high level at this point. He also needs to watch out for a Crit from the Thunder Mages, but so do most other units. Garcia can probably 1HKO the boss with a Halberd so that’s cool, as long as you get him to switch to his Javelin. Also worth noting, you can get an Energy Ring here which generally helps other units more than Garcia.

Chapter 8

On the north are a bunch of Armor Knights which Garcia might be able to 1RKO. Franz won’t be able to unless you promote to a Great Knight. Erika can with her Rapier or a few other units with an Armorslayer, but they are frailer than Garcia and would have WTD. Artur and Lute have the same problem of being frailer, and actually require about the same investment as Garcia. There’s still several Soldiers and Garcia can 1RKO the Archers that weigh themselves down. He can 1RKO Shaman with a Hand Axe, but Mages are too fast for him, and he’d need to be pretty high level to 1HKO them with a Steel Axe, and again, Thunder is scary but that’s also true for other units. There are also a few Cavalier reinforcements that appear on the west side that Garcia can 1HKO with the Halberd if you send him in that direction.

Route Split Conclusion

Overall, pretty solid. Garcia has been probably one of the better units available right up until the route split. Most enemies that he fails to double, most other units aren’t strong enough to 1RKO either. There have only been a few units that beat him out offensively and even fewer defensively. Even when he can’t 1RKO at least he has 1-2 range and good bulk. If the game ended now, I’d definitely call him quite good. Let’s see if he can keep up.

Erika Route

Chapter 9

Well we’re already off to a somewhat rough start because there are a lot of enemy swordsmen which Garcia has poor accuracy against and might get doubled by some. He’s not bad against Pirates but isn’t great either, some of them are too fast for him to 1RKO, there are a few units that are better, but also some that aren’t. Garcia can double and 1RKO the Steel Axe ones, and can counter the Hand Axe ones. There are still more Soldiers and Garcia can 1RKO them, but by this point in the game they’re getting easier for a lot of units to 1RKO. He can counter Archers with a Hand Axe but probably won’t 1RKO them while a couple units might like Franz, maybe Kyle. By this point in the game you have 1 of each promotion item except for a Hero Crest so most of your other units could potentially be promoted which gives them an advantage over Garcia. I also haven’t mentioned yet that Garcia is foot locked and has zero out of combat utility. Several other units obviously have advantages in those regards. Also worth noting, you can Steal a Speedwing from Amelia in this chapter, which can benefit other units too but is really nice for Garcia.

Chapter 10

The most common enemies are again Swordsman, a combination of Mercs and Myrms this time. There’s a lot of Soldiers and Garcia is pretty good against them, but again, most units are by this point. Archers that Garcia can’t double. You get Gerik and a Hero Crest in this chapter so Garcia can finally promote and gain +2 Spd and Swords, but doing so prevents Gerik from being able to. Joshua is also a contender. The Swords are nice against the enemy swordsmen for better accuracy and he also won’t get doubled as much. The Spd increase from promotion (or Speedwing) will allow him to double some more of the Archers and Axemen but there are still some that he won’t (unless you give him both the Hero Crest and Speedwing). Gerik can actually double some of the swordsman if he promotes to Hero, but most he won’t. He can 1RKO Archers at 1-2 range as a Hero, and also the Hand Axe enemies. He can already 1RKO Axemen with an Iron Sword un-promoted. The +2 Str for Joshua also helps him to reach more 1RKOs.

Chapter 11

Bonewalkers are the most common enemy here and whether or not a unit can 1RKO them kind of just comes down to whether they’re promoted or not. This applies to a lot of units including Garcia and Joshua. Between the two of them, Garcia has the advantage of extra bulk and 1-2 range. Gerik can 1RKO them un-promoted. The Archers are a bit weaker and easier to kill, Garcia’s 1-2 range is more valuable here, as would be Gerik’s if he promotes. Garcia can 1RKO Revenants and Mogalls un-promoted. Gerik needs to be promoted to 1RKO Gargoyles which are hard for most other units to 1RKO. Also, Garcia will get doubled by the boss if he isn’t promoted (or used a Speedwing) and maybe the Deathgoyle.

Chapter 12

Gargoyles are the most common enemies which are pretty hard for most units to 1RKO. Saleh can 1RKO them at base, and Gerik at 10/1 can 1RKO them with an Iron Axe. Garcia is one of the better units against them defensively but is too slow to double most of them, even with both the Hero Crest and Speedwing. If we are including stat boosters, then most other units are better at 1RKOing Gargoyles than Garcia, and some units are really good against them without stat boosters like Saleh and Gerik. Garcia can be pretty good against the ones that use Steel Lances, but most seem to use Iron Lances. The Mauthe Doogs are too fast for most units to double, probably just Joshua and Vanessa can. Garcia might be able to 1HKO them, but some other unit also can, and with more accuracy. Better than some other units but not particularly great. Mogalls are strangely weak and very easy to kill with 1-2 range. Most units are not strong enough to 1RKO Baels, Garcia might struggle to double them if he doesn’t use a Hero Crest or Speedwing but with one of those can be pretty good. Gerik and some other units are obviously good too and access to Axes make it easier for Gerik. Dozla actually seems better for this chapter than Garcia since he’s barely fast enough to double most of the Baels and any small Spd advantage Garcia could have by being promoted doesn’t allow him to double many extra enemies here. Swords aren’t a huge deal here either but do increase his accuracy. Garcia can 1HKO Tarvos with a Halberd, and so can Dozla. Other units aren’t incapable of 1RKOing them either though since they’re easy to double. Gerik and some other units can do so at base, including Erika with the Rapier. Another thing to note is that you get another Energy Ring here, which is generally more beneficial to other units than it is for Garcia.

Chapter 13

You can get a second Speedwing from Amelia here if you Stole one from her the first time without recruiting her (or killing her). This is good for Garcia, he benefits quite a bit from Speedwings, though he’s not the only unit that likes them. The most note worthy enemies here are Rangers, which are hard for most units to double, and hard for the few that can to reach high enough Atk for a 1RKO. There’s a lot of Cavaliers and Arhcers. Garcia probably needs both the Hero Crest and a Speedwing in order to reliably double the Archers. He’ll struggle to double the Cavaliers even then but can 1HKO them with a Halberd (as can Dozla at base). He might even be able to 1HKO the Rangers with a Halberd, but you have to be careful because he’ll get doubled, and he needs to be pretty high level to have that much Str (or use an Energy Ring). Dozla can also at base. You need them to switch to Bows for this to work. Gerik can be effective at countering Archers and Rangers if he’s promoted, and the promotion (at least to Hero) would make him more effective against Cavaliers (which he could 1RKO with an Iron Axe at 10/1). He’s better against the Archers than Dozla I guess, but only if he uses both the Hero Crest and Speedwing, and you can just use your Paladins against those. Flyers need to be extra careful here because of all the Bows including 3 Ballistae, The Armor Knights aren’t a big deal but Garcia is pretty god against them.

The Later Chapters

I'm not sure what else will change moving forward, the Brave Axe eventually becomes available which would be good because it basically negates Garcia's low Spd. He's not the only unit who's good with it though. Duessel and Dozla are both good with it as well, probably even better actually and with less investment. Same goes for the Garm. Garm adds +5 Spd which is great for Garcia, but it's also great for other Axe users if you can reach S Axes with them. Dozla might take longer since he starts with B, and Duessel because he joins late (on Erika's route), but weapon rank can increase fairly quickly in this game. There's only one Garm and one Brave Axe. Maybe you could trade between units, but I don't see Garcia being made particularly more useful because of these weapons, it's not like they're personal weapons for him. Being able to use them is a plus for him sure, but it doesn't come without the cost of those other units not using them. Just like how using the Hero Crest on Garcia comes at the cost of not using it on Gerik (or Joshua). A 2nd Speedwing is now available and at some point you can even get a 3rd one, but these aren't freebies for Garcia, and there are fast enemies that most units can't double so giving those Speedwings to other units instead might be better. Using them on Garcia just catching him up to most other units, but giving to other units could allow them to do things that otherwise might be impossible.

Tentative Conclusion

I do feel that Garcia has been falling off recently. He's not bad, far better than the actual bad units. But I do think there are a quite a few units better than him. He would definitely be struggling to double even the relatively slow enemies at this point in the game if I hadn't used a Speedwing on him. Even with that, He's not outperforming my other good units in much of anything anymore. If a Speedwing is basically a requirement for him, then anyone else we compare him to can also get a stat booster for basically free. I don't like that he takes the Hero Crest from Gerik and think that giving Gerik access to Axes and 1-2 range is more useful than anything Garcia can do. Gerik is just a better version of Garica basically. Not entirely fair because Gerik is good, being worse than him doesn't make him bad, but what is Garcia doing for my team that I can't do with other units, and who require less investment to do it?

He was pretty good early on, and up to the route split, but he's not super important either. Not that anyone else really is either aside from Seth and maybe Franz, but I'd argue that it might be better to just invest more into the other units like the Cavaliers, Vanessa, Artur and Lute, even Erika. You get one of each promotion item before the route split, except for a Hero Crest, which you get the first one when you get Gerik.

Ephraim Route

You get the first Hero Crest in a Village in Chapter 10 in this route before Gerik joins, and Gerik still comes with his own when he joins, so promoting Garcia doesn't prevent you from promoting Gerik. Compared to the other contender, Joshua, Garcia has more HP and 1-2 range with Hand Axes. He is also arguably more versatile after promotion with better control of the WT being able to use both Swords and Axes. Joshua is Sword locked and has a weaker enemy phase with lower HP and no 1-2 range. He faces WTD against Lance enemies and may struggle to 2HKO enemies. However, I'm not prepared to call Joshua worse than Garcia. Joshua is offensively superior against quite a few enemies. There are lot of enemies that Garcia does struggle to double, while Joshua can double even really fast enemies. Garcia can double more enemies with a Speedwing, but then we'd have to give Joshua an Energy Ring to be fair, which increases his kill range as well. As long as Joshua has access to the right weapons, he can be quite impressive offensively, including being able to 1RKO enemies that almost no one else can realistically double, allowing Joshua to do basically impossible things. Duessel also joins much earlier in Ephraim's route, which gives Garcia some tough competition as a strong Axe user with high Str and benefits a lot from a Speedwing. Oh yeah, and you have Ephraim instead of Erika who is better than Erika, and also better than Garcia.

Rough-Draft Comparison

Like I mentioned earlier, Garcia isn't bad. He's a lot better than the worst units. He's far from the bottom, but I think he's far from the top too. I think he falls somewhere in the middle, making him pretty much just average, which is fine, but it isn't particularly good. I think this game gives you a lot of really good units that Garcia just isn't worth the investment he needs to keep up with better units.

Here's a rough-draft list of units I consider worse than him - Erika, Gilliam, Ross, Neimi, Amelia, Marisa, L'Arachel, Ewan.

Here's a rough-draft list of units I consider roughly equal to him - Natasha, Joshua, Forde, Innes, Dozla, Syrene.

Here's a rough-draft list of units I consider better than him - Franz, Vanessa, Moulder, Artur, Lute, Ephraim, Kyle, Tana, Gerik, Saleh, Cormag, Duessel, Knoll, Myrrh, 

Units whose unique utility makes them too hard to compare - Colm, Rennac.

Units who are Seth - Seth.

Some clarification on those lists -

Knoll pretty much sucks in combat, but he has some pretty unique utility as a Summoner which is quite useful. He can also immediately be promoted to Summoner for this, making him low investment, and he has some Staff utility too.

Myrhh joins late and has limited uses, but she is low investment and has certain things that she is very good at.

I put Forde as roughly equal, but I like that even if his combat is lacking at least he has high Move and Rescue/Drop utility so he is more versatile than Garcia.

Innes, Dozla, and Syrene are all basically zero investment units. Syrene isn't great for much, but flyer utility is always nice. Dozla can do a lot of the same things Garcia can do but without needing investment. Innes is Bow locked, but he is offensively quite strong and often help out in picking off enemies, he is good against some enemies that are hard for most units to kill, including Draco Zombies in the final chapter. And this is with little to no investment.

Erika does have some advantages over Garcia but has enough weaknesses that I'm okay with putting her below him.

Natasha isn't actually bad, but there's really no point in using her with Moulder being better. Still, as a secondary Staff user early on, in case Moulder dies or something, I think there are more people that can fill in Garcia's role than Natasha's. Garcia is just a combat unit with zero utility, while Natasha is a rarer type of unit that can be more important in the right context. I wouldn't call her better than him, but if anything I might move her to the utility section with Colm and Rennac.

-

Sorry if this is a bit unorganized but hopefully you like the analysis. I look forward to seeing your response!

Edited October 17, 2021 by Whisky

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 10/16/2021 at 11:32 PM, Whisky said:

Sorry if this is a bit unorganized but hopefully you like the analysis. I look forward to seeing your response!

It's no problem, I did rather enjoy it. The sort of "chapter-by-chapter" analysis actually does come across as pretty organized, and I appreciate that it's very thorough. By the same token, I hope you understand why it took some time for me to get to this, because it is many much text and I am but a single man.

Anyway. Response time.

We seem to be agreed that Garcia is very solid in the early game, so I won't focus too much on that. Instead, I'll straight jump to the route-split/midgame/whatever you call it.

Eirika route kinda hurts him, I'll be entirely honest. Gerik is legitimately so much better it's not even funny, he's the obvious choice for his own Hero Crest, so Garcia is unlikely to promote before Chapter 14. Ephraim route is a little kinder since you get a Hero Crest in Chapter 10, a Killer Axe in Chapter 9 and a Swordslayer in Chapter 12, giving him a lot more options. I would argue Garcia is actually a much better contender for said Hero Crest than Joshua. The latter may have pretty good combat stats (I've sent base Joshua into, like, Chapter 14 or 15 and trained him during an ironman), but when you're a combat unit with no utility like these two, the lack of 1-2 range is just that severe of an impediment. I will admit that he does significantly better against Moth Dogs, but Garcia is better against Gargoyles due to WTA and the ability to counter javelins. Being swordlocked compromises Joshua's dodge-based survivability against lancers like Gargoyles and makes 2-range enemies in general something he has to pick at one by one. Once the swordslayer is in Hero Garcia's hands, he actually remains one of the best options against speedy sword units besides Seth or Franz with lances, being able to 1HKO most unpromoted ones even with bases, while a fairly reasonably strength of around 15 or so should let him 1HKO Swordmasters. The fact that one unit can do that without eating a counter is actually quite impressive, whereas most others would have to team up from 2 range or, in Joshua's case, eat a counter or pray for crits to deal other Swordmasters.

You may only have one Garm and one Brave Axe, but that's two powerful axes for up to two powerful units to use at a time. I think it's pretty realistic to get Gerik to S-axes and Duessel obviously can as well, but Garcia is a very solid Brave Axe user even if you don't elect to give him Garm, thanks to his daddy thicc strength stat. Effective weapons like the Halberd, Hammer, and Swordslayer also give him ways to 1HKO some powerful enemies, making up for his low speed somewhat.

You mention several times that Dozla can do many of the things which Garcia can do in the midgame, but I don't really consider that a point against Garcia. What that means to me is that Dozla is about equal to Garcia when he joins, but without being around to help out early on, when that's generally more important. You mention that Dozla takes no investment, but what's the opportunity cost to leveling Garcia up until that point? I can understand the opportunity cost of promoting him, but on average he should still match Dozla's 9 base speed with just 10 levels, even without promotion or speedwings. Since he's such a powerful unit early on, those levels are actually quite easy to get and it's probably most efficient to be using him, which brings "training" as an incidental benefit.

This is all discounting the benefits of promoting him and throwing him the speedwing for a lovely +4 speed. That's 11 speed minimum, probably closer to 13 or 14 for most of the midgame, which lets him double (and almost certainly 2HKO) nearly every enemy through Chapter 16. Joshua may be able to do a few "otherwise impossible" or unlikely things, but Garcia is able to do many more things, making him more useful generally. Garcia has a weirdly comfortable amount of speed where being speed-screwed and getting no speedwing still doesn't let him get doubled (relatively neutral affect on his performance), but being even a little speed-blessed pushes him into a position of excellence.

I also think the amount he contributes early on, before you have juggernauts like Gerik and while Franz and Vanessa are still in training, is itself an argument for his goodness. I would certainly rather draft him than Syrene or Innes, simply because I value those early contributions more (which brings up the question of what metric of quality we're using). Probably even more than Knoll, as much as I love summoners, for the same reason. Sure, Seth can solo the early game, but he can also solo the whole game. The worst thing about Seth is that you only have one of him- if you need to do something in another part of the map (like visit a village, take up the rear, or route a separate corner of it), you're going to want some dudes like Garcia.

All jokes aside, Forde is still probably better because Paladin and 5x, but Garcia is at least much more fun.

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now. I, uh...hope that it was convincing.

[Shaky Jones]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now. I, uh...hope that it was convincing.

Hey, I feel pretty convinced. Garcia is a unit I always wanted to use, but SS really keeps giving me virtually blank level ups every time with him. I guess the game wants me to never abandon Ross. I can't comment on Garcia from personal experience, but his base stats and average growth rates seem decent enough. He's not great, but I wouldn't shove him away as an "ehh" unit. I suppose my practically 0% growth Garcias would prove how helpful he is, because I tend to use him for a while before dropping him. He's a solid early game unit. I appreviate the extensive analysis that @Whisky put the time to construct. It would do Garcia proud. 

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I would certainly rather draft him than Syrene or Innes

Damn. No Syrene? Come on. I used her, and she was.....extremely mediocre. I'm guessing Garcia would be much more helpful overall, assuming that he's a hero by the time you get her. Syrene's main use is probably when you have to destroy the Gorgon eggs. Just bring all of the fliers, and they'll be easy breakfast. I'll just leave it at that, unless people actually want me to debate Syrene. I'd prefer debating someone else, but no one is coming up at the top of my head. 

[Jotari]

56 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

Hey, I feel pretty convinced. Garcia is a unit I always wanted to use, but SS really keeps giving me virtually blank level ups every time with him. I guess the game wants me to never abandon Ross. I can't comment on Garcia from personal experience, but his base stats and average growth rates seem decent enough. He's not great, but I wouldn't shove him away as an "ehh" unit. I suppose my practically 0% growth Garcias would prove how helpful he is, because I tend to use him for a while before dropping him. He's a solid early game unit. I appreviate the extensive analysis that @Whisky put the time to construct. It would do Garcia proud. 

Damn. No Syrene? Come on. I used her, and she was.....extremely mediocre. I'm guessing Garcia would be much more helpful overall, assuming that he's a hero by the time you get her. Syrene's main use is probably when you have to destroy the Gorgon eggs. Just bring all of the fliers, and they'll be easy breakfast. I'll just leave it at that, unless people actually want me to debate Syrene. I'd prefer debating someone else, but no one is coming up at the top of my head. 

I was actually thinking of bringing up Syrene. I mean her  bases are worse than Seth's >.> And while anyone who hasn't played Sacred Stones would probably think "Worse than Seth? That's hardly a failing, I've heard Seth is basically the best unit in the series", and that's true, only the thing that makes Seth one of the best units in the series is that you get him before Chapter 1, and you get Syrene at Chapter 17, which is practically end game. And by then, Seth's bases are no longer carrying him. The final character of the game should not be worse than the first character in the game, at base!

But then she can fly and that's worth fielding her on her own. She can be useful in the chapter you get her for helping to ferry the civilians around. And as pointed out, I guess you can put her on Gorgon Hunting duty. But still, she doesn't really have much beyond flying utility, and the game has already given you three fliers by this point (well four with Myrrh I guess). I'd only ever really consider Syrene if they were dead. It's not like she's awful, it's just she comes so late and just won't compare to units you've been training all game. So basically Radiant Dawn Tormod. Only she can fly. So yeah, basically Radiant Dawn's Vika.

[Shaky Jones]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I was actually thinking of bringing up Syrene. I mean her  bases are worse than Seth's >.>

To be fair, Seth's bases do carry him quite far. However, I can't exactly go saying saying Syrene's bases at chapter 17 are anything but dissapointing. 15 speed isn't even that good at this point, at least for a falcon knight. Specifically, it's not good when she's easily weighed down by most weapons with 7 con. I used Syrene in an ironman run last year, and she could only double most enemies with a killer lance after eating up a body ring. This gives her 9 con, which is exactly how much a killer lance weighs.Her defense and res would be fine, but her HP is lacking, so she tends to be pretty squishy conpared to either Tana or Vanessa. Her attack isn't great, but my trained  Vanessa actually had the same strength by then, so I dont think 12 strength is bad. Definitely usable. She does have A in lances, but I stuck with the killer lance and iron lance, because thats how she doubled at base if I recall. Why would you give her the S rank lance? Everyone has at least one other lance user at this point. Luckily, her growths are decent, but not spectacular. This is another advantage to brining her in the Gorgon chapter. She can get easy level ups from the exp gold that is murdering unborn children of snake ladies, which should boost her speed up enough to hopefully double with the silver lance. She still won't be Tana or Vanessa tier (and this is coming from soneone doesn't even appreciate Vanessa much), but serviceable enough to deploy for endgame, given SS's relatively weak enemies. One defense for Syrene is how chapter 19 and 20 give you a large deployment slot team. Assuming you don't have a team A and team B you set up throughout the gane, you're probably going to deploy extras you dont normally train. Syrene's worth fielding in this case for her flying/rescue utility. Chapter 20 in particular has some mountains that fliers will be helpful for, and there's those eyes with super long range with deadly magic might, so Syrene can help there, more than Innes would. I tend to deploy her for 18, 19, and 20 for these minor bonuses, and when you think about it, that's everything but endgame itself. Then again, its just her being a flying unit that helps, not anything about her. If you're training Tana and Vanessa, and they're enough for you, then Syrene won't really do much for your strategy. I wouldnt go out of my way to replace one of my main units for her, expect for maybe the gorgon chapter. She's mediocre in my opinion, but that's better than saying she's awful. I think she's better than Innes, but I'm not sure if that's saying much.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shaky Jones said:

To be fair, Seth's bases do carry him quite far. However, I can't exactly go saying saying Syrene's bases at chapter 17 are anything but dissapointing. 15 speed isn't even that good at this point, at least for a falcon knight. Specifically, it's not good when she's easily weighed down by most weapons with 7 con. I used Syrene in an ironman run last year, and she could only double most enemies with a killer lance after eating up a body ring. This gives her 9 con, which is exactly how much a killer lance weighs.Her defense and res would be fine, but her HP is lacking, so she tends to be pretty squishy conpared to either Tana or Vanessa. Her attack isn't great, but my trained  Vanessa actually had the same strength by then, so I dont think 12 strength is bad. Definitely usable. She does have A in lances, but I stuck with the killer lance and iron lance, because thats how she doubled at base if I recall. Why would you give her the S rank lance? Everyone has at least one other lance user at this point. Luckily, her growths are decent, but not spectacular. This is another advantage to brining her in the Gorgon chapter. She can get easy level ups from the exp gold that is murdering unborn children of snake ladies, which should boost her speed up enough to hopefully double with the silver lance. She still won't be Tana or Vanessa tier (and this is coming from soneone doesn't even appreciate Vanessa much), but serviceable enough to deploy for endgame, given SS's relatively weak enemies. One defense for Syrene is how chapter 19 and 20 give you a large deployment slot team. Assuming you don't have a team A and team B you set up throughout the gane, you're probably going to deploy extras you dont normally train. Syrene's worth fielding in this case for her flying/rescue utility. Chapter 20 in particular has some mountains that fliers will be helpful for, and there's those eyes with super long range with deadly magic might, so Syrene can help there, more than Innes would. I tend to deploy her for 18, 19, and 20 for these minor bonuses, and when you think about it, that's everything but endgame itself. Then again, its just her being a flying unit that helps, not anything about her. If you're training Tana and Vanessa, and they're enough for you, then Syrene won't really do much for your strategy. I wouldnt go out of my way to replace one of my main units for her, expect for maybe the gorgon chapter. She's mediocre in my opinion, but that's better than saying she's awful. I think she's better than Innes, but I'm not sure if that's saying much.

What's wrong with Innes? I can't claim I can remember using him all that much, but from what I do remember he comes with solid enough bases and weapon ranks.

[Shaky Jones]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

What's wrong with Innes? I can't claim I can remember using him all that much, but from what I do remember he comes with solid enough bases and weapon ranks

It's really just being a sniper. I prefer Syrene's flying utility over Innes's slight earlier join time. Innes's main quality is his A rank in bows, allowing you to use the brave bow immediately if no one else is using it. Innes is certainly usable. Decent enough bases. I deploy him whenever I have a large deployment slot like in 19 or 20, but he's not impressive by then. I never really find a use for snipers in FE7 or FE8.  It doesn't help that super effective damage only deals double the might instead of triple. I haven't done the Erika route in years, so I don't know how well he performs there. But from personal experience, I rarely find use in Innes, while I can at least use rescue strats and such for Syrene.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

It's really just being a sniper. I prefer Syrene's flying utility over Innes's slight earlier join time. Innes's main quality is his A rank in bows, allowing you to use the brave bow immediately if no one else is using it. Innes is certainly usable. Decent enough bases. I deploy him whenever I have a large deployment slot like in 19 or 20, but he's not impressive by then. I never really find a use for snipers in FE7 or FE8.  It doesn't help that super effective damage only deals double the might instead of triple. I haven't done the Erika route in years, so I don't know how well he performs there. But from personal experience, I rarely find use in Innes, while I can at least use rescue strats and such for Syrene.

Sure Syrene can do rescue stats, but that's not exclusive to her. You get three other perfectly servicible fliers long before her join time. One think I can say that Innes has going for him is near exclusive access to Nidhog. Dorothy is the only contender as the only other dedicated archer, and she's not that great either. There are other, better, units that can use bows on promotion, but chances are you wont get their bow ranks to S before their main weapon. Assuming one wants to make use of Nidhog, ditching Dorothy for Innes is probably a good idea (though I'm not speaking from experience here).

Edited October 20, 2021 by Jotari

[Shaky Jones]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Sure Syrene can do rescue stats, but that's not exclusive to her. You get three other perfectly servicible fliers long before her join time. One think I can say that Innes has going for him is near exclusive access to Nidhog. Dorothy is the only contender as the only other dedicated archer, and she's not that great either. There are other, better, units that can use bows on promotion, but chances are you wont get their bow ranks to S before their main weapon.

I never found either Syrene or Innes to be great, but more fliers never hurt anybody. Unless you're in ballistae hell. I'm assuming you mean Neimi? That's fair. It's difficult getting to S in bows if you don't train her in particular. Then again, I don't really get Innes to S either. But he does have the best shot of reaching it. I think it's really just how much you value a person's class as opposed to everything else. I really like snipers in a lot of FE games, but Sacred Stones isn't one of them. I prefer having more fliers, although I tend to not use Cormag. He always gets speed screwed for me. Just bad luck. I never feel the need to add an archer to my FE8 army though. When enemies are mostly easy to 1RKO in the late game with silvers and legendary weapons, a bow locked unit isn't going to contribute enough, even with good stats. I mean, I field both Innes and Syrene on chapter 19 and 20, but Syrene just contributes more, even with worse bases. Enemy archers aren't too common, so having a several fliers isn't detrimental, and they only do double the might, so sometimes you'll be fine even with that going against you. I can see Innes likely being better if trained on his join time for better stats plus the S rank bow, but I feel like most players will avoid both until they have no one else to deploy. At that point, the class will play a large part. I use Knoll at base for the late game just for the instant promo to summoner. His stats suck, but his skill is handy for baiting out siege tomes (or eyeball/gorgon thingies). Plus, the triangle attack is always a treat to watch.

[Jotari]

I think bows have effective damage against dracozombies. So there's a niche for them there at least. Though for way few dracozombies there are in the game, you'll probably be using sacred twins or a bishop on them anyway.

[Whisky]

I’m going to have to reply to the Garcia thing at a later time but for now:

Innes

He has legit good player phase offense which I think is slightly useful sometimes. It’s not a lot but Syrene isn’t good for much either. I do appreciate her Flyer utility, but she joins so late that you only get to benefit from it for 2 chapters. If you’re on Erika route Innes joins quite a bit earlier and his strong player phase offense can be a little bit useful even with his limitations as a 2 range locked Sniper. He’s not great but I think he’s better than Syrene overall. He is less good on Ephraim’s route, but might still be a little better than Syrene.

He definitely has the easiest time reaching S Bows for Nidhog, which adds to his impressive player phase offense, particularly against Draco Zombies. Bows are effective against Draco Zombies but there are so few of them that you’re probably best off using Nidhog whenever you use a Bow against them, but this is still useful because you can attack them without getting countered which is something that you can’t do with most other sacred weapons (aside from Magic). Again, nothing great but it’s something.

Effective Damage

Effective damage is x3 weapon Mt in Sacred Stones. It’s only x2 in FE7 (and POR). Wait, actually according to the ‘Calculations’ on SF, most weapons get x3 Mt, but the sacred weapons only get x2 Mt. if that’s true then a Silver Bow would be stronger than Nidhog when they’re effective? Seems strange.

[Shaky Jones]

17 minutes ago, Whisky said:

He has legit good player phase offense which I think is slightly useful sometimes. It’s not a lot but Syrene isn’t good for much either. I do appreciate her Flyer utility, but she joins so late that you only get to benefit from it for 2 chapters. If you’re on Erika route Innes joins quite a bit earlier and his strong player phase offense can be a little bit useful even with his limitations as a 2 range locked Sniper. He’s not great but I think he’s better than Syrene overall. He is less good on Ephraim’s route, but might still be a little better than Syrene

Innes is probably a better combat unit objectively, especially if we're talking about Erika mode, but I suppose my main reason for preferring Syrene just comes to the fact that I look at them from the perspective of using them only when I don't have anyone else to field in the lategame. If I had Innes and Syrene as drafted units, Innes would put in more work overall when consistently deployed. Syrene offers minor advantages to chapter 17, 19, and 20 when it comes to flying utility. I don't remember the effective damage in SS well. I could've sworn it was only double, but I almost never deploy archers so I guess I can't say definitely through experience. Erika Inmes is definitely better than Syrene. That much I'll admit. Ephraim Innes can be better if used consistently from his join time for S in bows and a few stat gains. Brave Bow Innes is a pretty good combat unit, so more speed to let him quad would be really helpful on him.

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Effective Damage

Effective damage is x3 weapon Mt in Sacred Stones. It’s only x2 in FE7 (and POR). Wait, actually according to the ‘Calculations’ on SF, most weapons get x3 Mt, but the sacred weapons only get x2 Mt. if that’s true then a Silver Bow would be stronger than Nidhog when they’re effective? Seems strange.

Yep. This also has the quirk of meaning Slayer combined Aura deals more damage against monsters than Ivaldi.

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:38 PM, Shaky Jones said:

Damn. No Syrene? Come on. I used her, and she was.....extremely mediocre. I'm guessing Garcia would be much more helpful overall, assuming that he's a hero by the time you get her. Syrene's main use is probably when you have to destroy the Gorgon eggs. Just bring all of the fliers, and they'll be easy breakfast. I'll just leave it at that, unless people actually want me to debate Syrene. I'd prefer debating someone else, but no one is coming up at the top of my head. 

 

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

I was actually thinking of bringing up Syrene. I mean her  bases are worse than Seth's >.> And while anyone who hasn't played Sacred Stones would probably think "Worse than Seth? That's hardly a failing, I've heard Seth is basically the best unit in the series", and that's true, only the thing that makes Seth one of the best units in the series is that you get him before Chapter 1, and you get Syrene at Chapter 17, which is practically end game. And by then, Seth's bases are no longer carrying him. The final character of the game should not be worse than the first character in the game, at base!

But then she can fly and that's worth fielding her on her own. She can be useful in the chapter you get her for helping to ferry the civilians around. And as pointed out, I guess you can put her on Gorgon Hunting duty. But still, she doesn't really have much beyond flying utility, and the game has already given you three fliers by this point (well four with Myrrh I guess). I'd only ever really consider Syrene if they were dead. It's not like she's awful, it's just she comes so late and just won't compare to units you've been training all game. So basically Radiant Dawn Tormod. Only she can fly. So yeah, basically Radiant Dawn's Vika.

I would say Syrene's not terrible, per se, but considering that a lot of the last recruits in FE games tend to be rather powerful at the least (Galzus, Athos, the laguz royals, etc.), it stands to reason that she'd stand out as being lackluster in comparison.

RE: Effective damage, as was said earlier, it's only double might in Path of Radiance (all versions) and Blazing Blade (American version only). 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yep. This also has the quirk of meaning Slayer combined Aura deals more damage against monsters than Ivaldi.

Indeed. Although frankly, with Aura being much heavier than Ivaldi (15 weight vs 10), I'd say the extra damage wouldn't be worth it if it stopped you from doubling.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

I would say Syrene's not terrible, per se, but considering that a lot of the last recruits in FE games tend to be rather powerful at the least (Galzus, Athos, the laguz royals, etc.), it stands to reason that she'd stand out as being lackluster in comparison.

RE: Effective damage, as was said earlier, it's only double might in Path of Radiance (all versions) and Blazing Blade (American version only). 

Indeed. Although frankly, with Aura being much heavier than Ivaldi (15 weight vs 10), I'd say the extra damage wouldn't be worth it if it stopped you from doubling.

Well let's face it you're probably going to be killing any monster you hit with either in one shot anyway. Well except for the occasional Draco Zombie (or Fomortiis), but they're so HP bulky you'll probably need three uses of an effective weapon to take them down anyway (and I say occasional, but there's only like two in the main game and a few more at the very last stage of the Lagdou Ruins, it's not like you run into them unchoreographed).

Edited October 20, 2021 by Jotari