Writing Around The Blood Pact

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

With all the game shows us... I highly doubt it. Sephiran may try, but I don't think she'll be convinced. At no point she gives any exception to anyone not Sephiran. She unleashed her judgement without consulting with Yune despite that being the accord if they were woken up with the galdr, she intends to petrify again the Disciples of Order once their use is done, she dismisses the Branded's existence as a sign that Beorc and Laguz can coexist, she's willing to get rid of Yune's heroes up to the very last moment. She's never convinced of anything, she's forced back to sleep instead. Only once both of them return to being Ashunera is there a sign she's more willing to listen to reason. Before that? Not a chance.

Well she's not so hardlined as to reject the notion of reviving the disciples of order. Sephiran, who is pretty committed to dying anyway, could argue for bringing Micaiah to the tower to spend the final days with. He at least wants to bring her to the tower for some reason, even if (I think) we never get a full explanation of his logic.

[Clear World]

So I'm perfectly fine being wrong regarding the translation difference. I don't know how I got that idea to begin with.

But in regards to the Blood Pact not being used in Part 4. It really doesn't matter what in-head cannon a person can come up to explain why it's not use. What is in effect is that the bad guys can used it, but chooses to simply not use it for some reason and it's never explained. For all we know, the truth could be that the blood pact no longer works because Ashera work up. It's not like the mechanics of the blood pact are fully understood.

Let alone, the entire scheme to get Pellas to sign the contract is iffy as well. So are we supposed to believe that the senators scheme the entire Pellas becoming king just so they could sign the blood contract, which includes recruiting Izuka to organize an entire rebellion against themselves. It's even suggested in Part 2 during Elincia's and Ike conversation that the Daein revolution was a set up for something else. 

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sephiran, who is pretty committed to dying anyway, could argue for bringing Micaiah to the tower to spend the final days with. He at least wants to bring her to the tower for some reason, even if (I think) we never get a full explanation of his logic.

In the mention of Sephiran and iffy motivation, why did he leave the medallion with Mist? What was the point? So much of his actions leaves so many questions.

[Acacia Sgt]

The worst part of the Pelleas situation is that, as the Extended Script states, you need to sign the Blood Pact with... well, blood. That should've set alarms. But well, Izuka really made sure Pelleas would remain naive on such things.

Also...

[ペレアス]
帝国がデインに対し、
無利息無期限で億単位のゴールドを
貸し付けてくれるという内容でしたね。▼
借用書という体裁はとっているものの、
駐屯軍の不始末に対しての賠償だから、
ゴールドは返さなくていいと……▼

[Pelleas]
The Empire is offering Dain
The empire was willing to lend Dain hundreds of millions of gold, interest-free and indefinitely.
I'm sure you've heard of it. IOU
Although the loan was in the form of an IOU.
But since it was compensation for the mismanagement of the garrison army.
You don't have to return the gold. ......▼

Hey, what do you know, my idea of Begnion compensating Daein with reparations was true after all. It was part of the Blood Pact.

Source:

https://www.pegasusknight.com/wiki/fe10/?章別会話/第3部+12章+生きてこそ#cb8c3158

3-12's script, both shortened and extended.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Clear World]

So back to the original topic, I'm just going to provide more direct answers...

On 9/21/2021 at 12:30 PM, Jotari said:

*Daein decides to ally with the former oppressors Begnion

*Daein continues to fight for the Begnion Senate even after Sanaki joins Ike's army.

- Begnion is providing massive amount of funding that Daein still want/need

- Any outside threat to Daein's rebuilding nation, is still a threat, therefore, if Begnion is willing to help them (at the moment), it is better to at the minimum, to be with Begnion than to fight a war they know they can't win.

- Would the people of Daein actually care which side Sanaki side with? It not like she's their leader or important figure in their life. (though to be fair, this would require some rewrite to not make it explicit that Sanaki is the one who wants to assist Daein in Part I)

On 9/21/2021 at 12:30 PM, Jotari said:

*Naesala needs a reason for another betrayal.

- He could just be working with Sephrian or already sides with Ashera similar to the dragons. So instead of being forced by the senators, he simply chooses what he thinks is best for his tribe and the Heron.

On 9/21/2021 at 12:30 PM, Jotari said:

*Ashnard admitting in Path of Radiance that he somehow managed to kill the royal family using a plague still needs to make sense (though I guess one could easily enough argue he just killed his family members and blamed it on a naturally occurring plague).

- I mean, he could've have poison them while poisoning a bunch of other people to masked his murders?

To be honest, I think the story would work a lot better if they just removed a lot of the back-door dealing & manipulation that occurs in the background of the game. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Clear World

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, a good way to avoid the Kilvas Blood Pact could be... and this may sound shocking and unsounded but... perhaps the character known to be an untrustworthy and backstabbing weasel just... does not backstab for a change. Make the birds' ambush still fail, but not because the raven king backstabbed the hawks. Then make that in the confusion Naesala still ends in position to help rescue Sanaki and take her to the alliance, and thus nothing in the story changes. Seriously. Nothing. The ravens still exit stage left term. Might as well keep them around still in the alliance ranks then so their only role isn't to just backstab off-screen then go AWOL.

Which is another lost potential RD didn't do just to force things going with the Blood Pact. What did the ravens thought on the betrayal? Naesala's motivations are clear, but the ravens were all gung-ho to fight Begnion to avenge the Herons. It's not like there were doubts of the war since the Alliance was having a good momentum. It was the ravens' betrayal that started the chain reaction that led to Zelgius beating Skrimir and forcing the Alliance to retreat. So then what, did all the ravens agreed to betray the alliance? Was there some in-fighting where Naesala forced all of them to comply? Like with Daein and Pelleas, the ravens should've gone all "heck no, we're not doing this!" But well... this is never addressed!

Edited September 24, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

38 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, a good way to avoid the Kilvas Blood Pact could be... and this may sound shocking and unsounded but... perhaps the character known to be an untrustworthy and backstabbing weasel just... does not backstab for a change. Make the birds' ambush still fail, but not because the raven king backstabbed the hawks. Then make that in the confusion Naesala still ends in position to help rescue Sanaki and take her to the alliance, and thus nothing in the story changes. Seriously. Nothing. The ravens still exit stage left term. Might as well keep them around still in the alliance ranks then so their only role isn't to just backstab off-screen then go AWOL.

Which is another lost potential RD didn't do just to force things going with the Blood Pact. What did the ravens thought on the betrayal? Naesala's motivations are clear, but the ravens were all gung-ho to fight Begnion to avenge the Herons. It's not like there were doubts of the war since the Alliance was having a good momentum. It was the ravens' betrayal that started the chain reaction that led to Zelgius beating Skrimir and forcing the Alliance to retreat. So then what, did all the ravens agreed to betray the alliance? Was there some in-fighting where Naesala forced all of them to comply? Like with Daein and Pelleas, the ravens should've gone all "heck no, we're not doing this!" But well... this is never addressed!

Contrary to their reputation, the Ravens unwavering loyalty to Naesla actually ironically makes them the most trustworthy underlings on the continent XD

[SnowFire]

Realize this thread is a bit old, but since it's still on the first page...  it's an interesting topic.  I've been reading up on some politics & revolts in both the Roman era & the Hellenistic era (aka after Alexander the Great), and there really were cases of rebels who fought the leaders one moment, then turned around and allied with them the next if they thought it could bring them more power, or was necessary.  Even to the degree of sending troops "abroad" to go fight the foreign wars of the state they theoretically just revolted from!  Surprising, but true.  Of course, this generally happened as part of some deal where both sides got a bit of what they wanted, and happened in unstable situations where both leaders feared other factions from within their own "tribe" and hence decided to work together.  And of course often with suspicious "heirs" out of nowhere, just like Pelleas.

Given that...  and also given that we want a fix that isn't "here, let me stop things and throw my fanfic short story in," aka a plot point that can be explained quickly and easily since it's not really the main focus of the story...  here's my proposal:

• Back in Part 1, there's multiple resistance factions.  There's still the Dawn Brigade + Pelleas's crew of course, but throw in two new players.  One favors passive resistance: prayers to the Goddess will bring a miracle that will save Daein.  This can be an excuse for a cutscene of Jarod executing some of them (or replace the existing bit of this in the prologue!), which would both help establish Jarod's villain bonafides, and also serve as a bit of a hint that Ashera & Yune aren't very responsive to prayers like this.  The third faction can essentially be Some Warlord: a general / lord of (SOME REGION) who rather implausibly claims that Ashnard appointed him Regent Just In Case before he died.  Ideologically, he'd basically be the Daein version of Ludveck: he'll make Daien strong again.  He's mostly sitting fortified in his mountainous home region though where Benignon really doesn't like to send troops.  Neither of these need more than a paragraph or two of coverage.
• In Part 3, Benignon has decided to re-recognize an independent Daein.  But WHICH Daein?  There are multiple claimed governments, and each claims the other is illegitimate - notLudveck can be pushing the "Pelleas is a fraud" line, and Iizuka can be pushing the "notLudveck is a fraud" view.  The Senate essentially says that their support is for sale: whoever offers the most will get the nod.  NotLudveck, being a bit of a racist, offers support in the campaign against Gallia - not out of alliance with Benignon but just as an excuse to kill some sub-humans.  Pelleas essentially feels obligated to match that offer to stay in the bidding.  The Senate is also offering fancy titles & such, like Hireophant of Daein.
• Of course, what the Senate isn't saying is that they know a civil war with Sanaki is like 5 minutes away, so they're happy to bargain away basically anything to get more military support just before the break.  Maybe there were still Benignon occupation troops in the southern half of Daien that they desperately needed to move away to counter Gallia / (Sanaki's faction that actually does something in our alternate story).  Might as well get something from this useless chit - they withdraw them, Pelleas can say he liberated a chunk of the country for free, and the low low price is helping out vs. Gallia rather than having to fight for it tooth and nail.  Of course they were getting withdrawn anyway, but Pelleas didn't know that.
• You also now have another antagonist you can use in Part 4 if you want in Daein's notLudveck.  Or give him a redemption arc, or leave him turned to stone and ignore him.  Up to you.

--

Special bonus: What if the blood pact was kept?  I won't go into the existing complaints about it which are well-known, but if we decided we were keeping it, the biggest disconnect is that the blood pact is jaw-droppingly powerful.  If it was inflicted by, say, the Queen of the Fairies or Ashera herself (similar to how she stones most of the populace) or something, fine.  But it's just done by Some Scheming Senators?   Narratively, the game kinda wants you to disrespect the Senate: they're evil, sure, but they're also pompous blowhards who are being played by super-cool Sephiran & Zelgius, so they're not even great at the one thing that should be their specialty, politics.  I think if you're serious about the blood pact, you have to reverse course on this, and decide that on second thought, Lekain was an Emperor Palpatine / Saruman level threat, the greatest wizard on the continent with power over life and death on a continental scale.  There's other details I'd change as well (how does the blood pact work?  it's really just a conduit for Lekain casting massive death spells to people loosely connected to the target, kings are just convenient because they know a lot of people), but the biggest is the one of tone.  If you're gonna do this plot point, you have to respect it a bit more than the script does, which really does seem to write it off as an excuse for some fightan'z between sympathetic sides, no need to think too hard about it.  (Say, Pelleas attempting to commission Volke or some ninja team untraceable to him to take out Lekain after the fact he gave Lekain a conduit to inflict magical doom is explained to him.)

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, SnowFire said:

• Back in Part 1, there's multiple resistance factions.  There's still the Dawn Brigade + Pelleas's crew of course, but throw in two new players.  One favors passive resistance: prayers to the Goddess will bring a miracle that will save Daein.  This can be an excuse for a cutscene of Jarod executing some of them (or replace the existing bit of this in the prologue!), which would both help establish Jarod's villain bonafides, and also serve as a bit of a hint that Ashera & Yune aren't very responsive to prayers like this.  The third faction can essentially be Some Warlord: a general / lord of (SOME REGION) who rather implausibly claims that Ashnard appointed him Regent Just In Case before he died.  Ideologically, he'd basically be the Daein version of Ludveck: he'll make Daien strong again.  He's mostly sitting fortified in his mountainous home region though where Benignon really doesn't like to send troops.  Neither of these need more than a paragraph or two of coverage.

I really like the notion of there being multiple resistance groups. That's usually how rebellions actually go down as people have conflicting opinions with exactly what purpose they're liberating their nation for. It also just works magnificently on a thematic level by  basically playing out the order vs chaos narrative right from the beginning. That being said, keeping them around after part 1 seems like it might get a tad messy with the plot. I don't think I like the notion of Pelleas matching the bid just to save face. It just seems, I don't know, overly rash or something. I know he's not meant to be a great leader, but I wouldn't say he fails in that specific way.

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, SnowFire said:

I won't go into the existing complaints about it which are well-known, but if we decided we were keeping it, the biggest disconnect is that the blood pact is jaw-droppingly powerful.  If it was inflicted by, say, the Queen of the Fairies or Ashera herself (similar to how she stones most of the populace) or something, fine.  But it's just done by Some Scheming Senators?   Narratively, the game kinda wants you to disrespect the Senate: they're evil, sure, but they're also pompous blowhards who are being played by super-cool Sephiran & Zelgius, so they're not even great at the one thing that should be their specialty, politics.

I don't really think this is a very fair take; some of the supporting senators might be arrogant sops, but the danger Lekain poses is very legitimate, and he's behind waay too much bad stuff to be brushed off as "someone played by Sephiran" or to say the game is encouraging you to disrespect him. As a reminder:

• He has the previous apostle assassinated.
• He has a fake apostle installed because he feels he'll be able to control her and use her as face for any unpopular laws the senate will pass.
• He is the instigator of the Serenes Massacre (which in turn directly causes Sephiran to do the things that he does).
• He is the big bad behind the exploitative occupation of Daein.
• He is behind a pair of Blood Pacts, of course.

It's not an exaggeration to say that he's behind more suffering than anyone else in the Tellius games. He's still arrogant like the rest of the named senators of the but he's not the first politician who has inflicted incredible evil despite being overly full of himself.

Though if your point is that the Blood Pact is so powerful it'd make more sense if only a particularly powerful magic-user could use it, that makes sense and I don't disagree. You could certainly dial up Lekain or possibly House Gaddos in general as the most powerful users of light magic (hardly a stretch given he's already the holder of Rexaura, ignoring that time a random bishop used it in Ashnard's army), and the Blood Pact could be a particular perversion of a magic which derives its power from the Goddess or Order (kinda fits given that it's a legal document of sorts). This would also explain why he has access to a superior form of teleportation magic (the Rewarp staff) than what Zelgius was using in the previous game.

I do overall think the Blood Pact is worth keeping in some form (I'm closer to the opinions stated earlier in the thread that I don't have a major issue with it... but I certainly see ways it could have been done better).

[Radiant head]

Yeah also isn't the serenes massacre a huge reason why Sephiran became nihilist or whatever and went on his path? It's not like he orchestrated that 

I think the blood pact is a little too plot devicey like "you have to do this very specific thing that we couldn't come up with a justification for you to do but we need you to clash with the Laguz Alliance/Greil mercy" but honestly I'm playing this game after so long lately and it's not terrible.  Ideally they could have come up with a more plausible feeling way for Begnion to coerce Daein but I can't really think of anything specific...some interesting ideas in this thread though. 

[Chrisantana]

On 1/30/2022 at 12:22 AM, OscarKieran said:

I read a very interesting thought, cool discussion

I am agree, the discussion is very rich detailed and tight. Thanks guys, very enjoyed it.