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Your ideas on remakes in general?


henrymidfields
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16 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Now that I think about it, what would you improve for Azure Moon?

I like Azure Moon the way it is. The only thing I'd want to change is Edelgard and Dimitri reaching some sort of peace and possibly getting a Happily Ever After...but the point of those two's relationship is that they can't reach a peace, and it has little to do with egalitarianism. 

 

17 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

I wouldn't mind if they also modify AM's story. Say Dimitri's reconquest of his Kingdom isn't going as well and is a constant uphill battle, trying to quell rebellions on the southern half. Turns out, those people were actually kind of content with the Empire's rule thanks to Edelgard's egalitarian policies. And turns out, Edelgard was kinda right about Rhea not having the best interests of the Fodlanese people. And suddenly Dimitri's leadership is called into question when the whole Blue Lions teams finds out. Some like Felix gets all high and mighty about it, revealing that he knew that Dimi was not doing his homework in governance all along. Some like Sylvain and Mercedes lashes out at Dimi for being constantly self-absorbed for the majority of the War Phase, disappointed that Dimi has no plans for what to do with the constant crest-based injustice the two faced. Others like Ingrid refuses to believe any of Edie's claims and yells at the others for not knowing which side the students are on.

In the end, I would make it explicit that Edie ended up having the last laugh in her grave. Either Dimi gets forced into a figurehead, or he ends up passing a less extreme version of Edelgard's reforms. Rhea and Seteth ends up being forced to fess up under Byleth's coercion, and steps down. And while everyone eventually makes amends, I'd make it so that that too had been an uphill struggle.

 

First, I'll say that I don't think the scenario is likely at all (sorry!). According to several of her ending roues, Edelgard didn't really get to put her changes in place until after the war. The riots would be less about egalitarian rule and more about power, nobility, and independence (all of which things Dimitri has experience in dealing with).

Second, I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation about Dimitri, governing, and Crests. There is nothing ever stated that Dimitri would be a bad or ineffective ruler. He's not surrounded by (too many) "yes" people, he's open to options and change, and he listens to wise council. Dimitri is also not oblivious to the problem that Crests shape, he just isn't as violently against them due to his own experiences with them. For Edelgard, the desire for Crests and vessels ruined her life. (Although I don't think Crests are entirely to blame - when power becomes a luxury, people will take it whatever form and deny it to others for whatever reason. No matter the place in life, when power over another is an option, problems will arise.) Meanwhile, Dimitri's life has been altered by Crests, but also relies on them in a very real, practical way. It's not that Dimitri isn't egalitarian either, as he very much is. It's just that to the lives of Edelgard, Mercedes, and a few others, Crests are seen as a source of power for the sake of powerand, Meanwhile, for the lives of Felix, Dimitri, and Sylvain, Crests are a source power for the sake of protection (in the sense of protecting territory). Ingrid and a few others are in the middle ground, where the two reasons are mixed. 

Part 1 Chapter 5 Post-Battle Dialogue:

Quote
  • Dimitri: Is your meeting over, Professor?
    • Choice 1: You look troubled.
    • Choice 2: Are you weary?

 

  • Dimitri: I was just thinking about something. Professor... The possession of Relics and Crests has been highly valued in Faerghus since ancient times. It's far from uncommon for someone to lose their ability to lead their house because they don't bear a Crest. Just like Miklan. It happened to my uncle as well. The eldest child of the king, and yet he never ascended to the throne. All families whose bloodlines carry Crests of the 10 Elites are much the same. But House Gautier takes it a step further, and absolutely requires an heir who possesses a Crest.
    • Choice 1: Why are they so obsessed with it?
    • Choice 2: Why House Gautier in particular?

 

  • Dimitri: To that house, the power of Crests is a necessity, not a luxury. House Gautier holds the most northern territory in the Kingdom, and they have fought with the people to the north for many years. The head of that house is responsible for protecting that territory from fearsome invaders, whom they keep at bay with the power of Crests and Relics. In exchange for that responsibility, they are granted special privileges within the Kingdom.
    • Choice 1: Their Crests grant them special privileges? 
      • Dimitri: In a way. That said, ability cannot be measured by the possession of a Crest alone...
    • Choice 2: Strength is strength, with or without a Crest.
      • Dimitri: I believe the same. Ability cannot be measured by the possession of a Crest alone.

 

  • Dimitri: I believe that Margrave Gautier was wrong to disinherit Miklan because he did not bear a Crest. Still, there is always a reason for why such customs stand the test of time. Imagine what this world would be like if no one placed any stock in Crests... Bloodlines that carry Crests would dwindle. The metaphorical blade used to oppose threats would eventually rest. This same argument has been made time and time again across the years. Both sides are at once right and wrong.

(The player chooses the response, " What do you believe, Dimitri?")

  • Dimitri: I believe those with Crests and those without should acknowledge the others' strengths and learn to respect each other based on personal merits. And that doesn't apply only to Crests. The same holds true for lineage, race, faith, ideologies... If we could just accept each other and make mutual concessions, one step at a time... Perhaps... Who knows if that's even possible. Everyone has something that is unacceptable within them. I certainly do, and I'd wager you do as well. I wonder which is best, Professor... To cut away that which is unacceptable, or to find a way to accept it anyway...

 

As you can see, Dimitri's problem isn't that he's fine with the Crest society, but that he understands very intimately the functionality of the Crests. He wants peace and respect for all, but he also fears what would happen if peace ultimately defeats the people. It is tragic and ironic that despite his fears of the external enemies, his enemy ends up being one who he thought was a peer and an ally. The tragic irony of one who wants to make concessions and peace fighting against one who refuses to compromise...and eventually becoming one who refuses to see the reason that peace requires himself. (Not sure it would help though.) That's why I think Claude and Hanneman weirdly enough have ideologies and actions that align more with Dimitri's ideal world than Edelgard. 

Rhea wasn't bad for Fodlan as people think IMO - she shaped it how in a way she thought was best and did what she could to keep the peace while giving as much autonomy as she could when it didn't lead to war once the war for power had ended. This is exactly what Edelgard would do - what Edelgard does do - had she won. Rhea is the opposite side of the coin to Edelgard in all honesty and I think it's sad that more people don't see that. 

Also, Mercedes lashing out at Dimitri is very Out Of Character to me. Mercedes is one of the most forgiving people in the game. Her reaction to Dimitri's return was joy IIRC, and she honestly doesn't care about the Crest system so long as she can escape it. The only people she really lashes out at is Lorenz, and that's because of his arrogance. Mercedes' M.O has always been to do good to those who you can do good for. I don't see her snapping at Dimitri for any reason. Instead, wouldn't she be the one to remind Dimitri and give insight on what to do?

Lastly, Edelgard getting the last laugh goes antithetical to the whole point of Byleth joining the Blue Lions. With Byleth by his side (either as a friend and ally, and/or wife), Dimitri becomes the best version of himself he can be. Gloating Edelgard's ideological victory over his head means that he was wrong, that his path was wrong, and I feel that negates his whole arc of learning to be a good leader again by learning about forgiveness, redemption, and perspective. Besides if anyone is going to be a figurehead it's going to be Byleth. But with Seteth by their side, there's no need to worry about getting any theology wrong.

Sorry if this feels a little harsh or any other associated feelings. I'm certainly not trying to be that way. I just can't see myself liking your proposed change to the story. And that's fine! Many people don't like my hypothetical changes to things; we all have our perspectives and views, and all should be respected, even if we disagree. 

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On 12/9/2021 at 11:51 AM, Use the Falchion said:

First, I'll say that I don't think the scenario is likely at all (sorry!). According to several of her ending roues, Edelgard didn't really get to put her changes in place until after the war. The riots would be less about egalitarian rule and more about power, nobility, and independence (all of which things Dimitri has experience in dealing with). 

Okay, let me dispute this one by one. Bear with me as there's a lot to cover. Yes, Edie didn't start her reforms in CF, but I think that was because she was more behind in her conquering compared to other routes. I think it is worth pointing out that AM, CF etc are all alternate histories with the point of divergence being when Byleth chooses the house. Hasn't she already conquered the majority of the Kingdom in AM thanks to Cornelia? Admittedly, I'm a bit hazy with how much the Alliance is conquered, but I think she's in much better position by AM's Chapter 13 with Rhea caught, Dimitri missing, and the Kingdom annexed compared to CF's Chapter 13 which she hasn't had anything yet. Even if she can't push all of her reforms, I wouldn't be surprised if she can reform the military at least (and maybe a couple of other stuff) to recruit talented commoners to rise up through the ranks. She needs all of the help she can get.

On 12/9/2021 at 11:51 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Second, I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation about Dimitri, governing, and Crests. There is nothing ever stated that Dimitri would be a bad or ineffective ruler. He's not surrounded by (too many) "yes" people, he's open to options and change, and he listens to wise council. Dimitri is also not oblivious to the problem that Crests shape, he just isn't as violently against them due to his own experiences with them. For Edelgard, the desire for Crests and vessels ruined her life. (Although I don't think Crests are entirely to blame - when power becomes a luxury, people will take it whatever form and deny it to others for whatever reason. No matter the place in life, when power over another is an option, problems will arise.) Meanwhile, Dimitri's life has been altered by Crests, but also relies on them in a very real, practical way. It's not that Dimitri isn't egalitarian either, as he very much is. It's just that to the lives of Edelgard, Mercedes, and a few others, Crests are seen as a source of power for the sake of powerand, Meanwhile, for the lives of Felix, Dimitri, and Sylvain, Crests are a source power for the sake of protection (in the sense of protecting territory). Ingrid and a few others are in the middle ground, where the two reasons are mixed. 

Point taken about Sylvain's needing the Crests to protect their territory from Sreng. It still doesn't negate his own problems with how the crests negatively affected his parents' (resultant) attitude towards the kids, or how Sylvain was seen as a trophy while Miklan was neglected. This shows up in his supports with Blyeth (B), Mercedes (B and A) and Dorothea (A) - though I noticed it didn't show up in the main story for some reason. And when I checked the former two conversations, Sylvain acts resentful too.

Spoiler
  • Sylvain: Most children who are born to noble families are tested upon birth to see if they bear one. Even descendants of the 10 Elites, like myself, can't be legitimate heirs without a Crest. That means, as children, we're only accepted if we're born with one. The heads of most noble houses keep having kids until they get one with a Crest. Those children grow up to be heads of their houses, and the vicious cycle continues. Do you get it now? To all these commoner girls, I'm just a trophy. Or rather, a studhorse.
  • Byleth:
    • Choice 1: You mean they only want you for your bloodline?
    • Choice 2: That's cynical.
  • Sylvain:
    • Choice 1 response: See? I knew you'd get it. These girls don't love me. They love the potential rewards of loving me.
    • Choice 2 response: Perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that these girls don't love me. They only love the potential rewards of loving me.
  • Sylvain: If I marry a girl and she gives birth to a child with a Crest, that kid might become the next head of House Gautier. But nowadays, with the bloodlines getting weaker, there are a lot of kids like my brother...born with no hope. For ages now, those of us with Crests have been envied and desired but never for who we are. I understand the value of my blood. Believe me, I hate how much I understand it. I know better than to dream of being free from this burden, I'm used to it by now. I used to think I didn't have the right to live freely.
  • Byleth: You don't think that way anymore?
  • Sylvain: Heh heh... That's right. You know what? I'm a bit jealous. The whole time you were growing up, you never knew you had a Crest. You were free. Nobody pretended to like you. I kind of hate you for that... You were a spoiled brat who should pay for that Crest. Maybe I'll collect the debt. Ha! Gotcha! Wow, you shoulda seen the look on your face just then. don't mind me, Professor. After all, ladies love a dark and brooding noble.

And here's one between Sylvain and Mercedes:

Spoiler
  • Sylvain: Would you want to know more about me even if I didn't have a Crest or come from a noble family?
  • Mercedes: This has nothing to do with your Crest or family. I'm just asking as your friend. How should I put this? When I look at you, I don't see a Crest. I want to see the real you.
  • Sylvain: You...you do? Here's the short version—I hate Crests. Even though having one is supposed to be such a great blessing, mine has ruined everything. Miklan was heir to our house. Then I was born, and I became the heir because I had a Crest. That made my older brother jealous enough to want to kill me. And every woman in Fódlan wants to have my little Crest baby so they can join the nobility. Yeah... There you go. That's what it's like to have a Crest.
  • Mercedes: I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to dredge up such awful things.

Surprisingly, I couldn't find the similar things with either Sylvain x Ingrid/Dimitri. (Or could it be in the main story and I've just missed it?) You know, two people who should actually know about Sylvain better than Byleth or Mercedes. Now, I know this could mean a whole lot of things, but it raises a couple of yellow flags with me that the people who are supposed to be close friends don't actually discuss then proverbial elephant inside Sylvain's emotional room. At the very least Dimitri could have more explicitly acknowledge Sylvain's (and Mercedes's) situation and more explicitly realise the negative side of crests on society. (Again, maybe this was in a conversation that I missed.) And this includes him trying to understand why Edelgard acted the way she did, even if he cannot completely forgive her.

On 12/9/2021 at 11:51 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Lastly, Edelgard getting the last laugh goes antithetical to the whole point of Byleth joining the Blue Lions. With Byleth by his side (either as a friend and ally, and/or wife), Dimitri becomes the best version of himself he can be. Gloating Edelgard's ideological victory over his head means that he was wrong, that his path was wrong, and I feel that negates his whole arc of learning to be a good leader again by learning about forgiveness, redemption, and perspective. Besides if anyone is going to be a figurehead it's going to be Byleth. But with Seteth by their side, there's no need to worry about getting any theology wrong.

Now that I think about it, it was a step too far. But even if this isn't possible, I would have liked to have seen Dimitri realize that things aren't black and white, things don't happen in a vaccuum, and he's not completely the hero either. I mean, Dimi's story is still fairly close to a typical FE story, and this actually comes after 15+ games of the typical hero saves the continent story. I would totally not mind having the typical FE lord having to learn why things happened as they are, and that he has to admit his society's own shortcomings being a factor in setting off the events as they are, and that he cannot maintain the status quo. And the ending should show that there are way more stuff Dimi needs to sort out before he can finally rule with stability, and that the Kingdom had to contend with a lot of changes in its rule, ironically fulfilling Edelgard's wish to some degree.

And if this sounds antithetical to what people think of AM, I would like to point out that my idea has some historical precedence. Napoleon may have failed as Emperor, but his ideas ended up setting up revolutions later down the track such as 1849 in Austria. The Sepoy rebellion in India failed, but did lead to a change in how India was governed. Communism eventually failed, but it did prompt western governments adopt social programs and civil rights - if nothing more than pragmatism to ironically keep people away from Communism. (See the end of this article from the Atlantic, quoted below.)

Spoiler

But communism's impact was and still is enormous. In addition to provoking significant changes in capitalist economies, such as vastly increased military spending and the growth of a military-industrial complex, the USSR's existence changed Western social development in fundamental ways.

Labor reform in the West in the past century came about under the threat of a radicalized international labor movement protected and supported by the USSR. President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal was in part meant to steal the thunder of radicals who looked to Moscow and therefore could not be ignored. Social goals that are commonplace today, including women's rights and racial integration, were planks of the Communist Party platform long before mainstream American parties took them seriously. It was Communists who first went to the American South and began organizing African-Americans and poor whites around issues of social justice. The more politically acceptable young people who followed them in the sixties are heroes today. On the international scene the Soviet Union provided support for Nelson Mandela and other reformers. Communism made life difficult for Western establishments, and it is doubtful that reforms would have come when they did if the USSR had not existed. Communists always rejected reform in favor of revolution. Ironically, however, the existence of the Soviet Union helped the capitalist West reform itself and avoid the bloody revolutions of the East. Twentieth-century communism was no passing illusion; its legacies are everywhere.

I'll have to continue this on some other day as I am in the middle of work.

Edited by henrymidfields
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Just now, henrymidfields said:

Hasn't she already conquered the majority of the Kingdom in AM thanks to Cornelia? Admittedly, I'm a bit hazy with how much the Alliance is conquered, but I think she's in much better position by AM's Chapter 13 with Rhea caught, Dimitri missing, and the Kingdom annexed compared to CF's Chapter 13 which she hasn't had anything yet.

In VW and AM, all three things you've said have occurred: Rhea is captured, Dimitri is missing, and Cornelia is put in charge of Faerghus while the rest of the kingdom is either waging civil war or resisting IIRC. But Edelgard doesn't enact any changes, she just lets Cornelia do what the tyrant wants. Edelgard's war did NOTHING for the people of Faerghus, and she didn't even have time to impact any changes on the Alliance either, since they were 50/50 on obeying her in AM, and fully against her in VW.

To be fair to Edelgard, she probably didn't have much say in the matter, but it's still important to know for this discussion.

 

Just now, henrymidfields said:

Even if she can't push all of her reforms, I wouldn't be surprised if she can reform the military at least (and maybe a couple of other stuff) to recruit talented commoners to rise up through the ranks. She needs all of the help she can get.

Why don't you think other countries wouldn't allow the same thing, particularly the Alliance? The Golden Deer have more commoners in their class than BE and BL, and none of the members seem to say anything about NOT having chances in the military. I mean, isn't one of the points of Garrag Mach to give everyone who comes an equal chance at becoming a knight and achieving their potential? The only problem is the high entry price - something Leonie complains about. But it's also not the only school in Fodlan - Fhirdiad has a Magic Academy (that Annette, Mercedes, and Lorenz all went to), and several of Annette's endings involve her creating a new school of magic. I think this is more egalitarian than many changes, as access to education for all goes a LONG way in achieving equal opportunities for all. 

 

Just now, henrymidfields said:

It still doesn't negate his own problems with how the crests negatively affected his parents' (resultant) attitude towards the kids, or how Sylvain was seen as a trophy while Miklan was neglected. This shows up in his supports with Blyeth (B), Mercedes (B and A) and Dorothea (A) - though I noticed it didn't show up in the main story for some reason. And when I checked the former two conversations, Sylvain acts resentful too.

  Reveal hidden contents
  • Sylvain: Most children who are born to noble families are tested upon birth to see if they bear one. Even descendants of the 10 Elites, like myself, can't be legitimate heirs without a Crest. That means, as children, we're only accepted if we're born with one. The heads of most noble houses keep having kids until they get one with a Crest. Those children grow up to be heads of their houses, and the vicious cycle continues. Do you get it now? To all these commoner girls, I'm just a trophy. Or rather, a studhorse.
  • Byleth:
    • Choice 1: You mean they only want you for your bloodline?
    • Choice 2: That's cynical.
  • Sylvain:
    • Choice 1 response: See? I knew you'd get it. These girls don't love me. They love the potential rewards of loving me.
    • Choice 2 response: Perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that these girls don't love me. They only love the potential rewards of loving me.
  • Sylvain: If I marry a girl and she gives birth to a child with a Crest, that kid might become the next head of House Gautier. But nowadays, with the bloodlines getting weaker, there are a lot of kids like my brother...born with no hope. For ages now, those of us with Crests have been envied and desired but never for who we are. I understand the value of my blood. Believe me, I hate how much I understand it. I know better than to dream of being free from this burden, I'm used to it by now. I used to think I didn't have the right to live freely.
  • Byleth: You don't think that way anymore?
  • Sylvain: Heh heh... That's right. You know what? I'm a bit jealous. The whole time you were growing up, you never knew you had a Crest. You were free. Nobody pretended to like you. I kind of hate you for that... You were a spoiled brat who should pay for that Crest. Maybe I'll collect the debt. Ha! Gotcha! Wow, you shoulda seen the look on your face just then. don't mind me, Professor. After all, ladies love a dark and brooding noble.

And here's one between Sylvain and Mercedes:

  Reveal hidden contents

I never said Sylvain wouldn't or shouldn't be resentful, I said Dimitri understands why Crests are needed. He clearly disagrees with how much emphasis on Crests Sylvain's family puts on them, even if he isn't aware of the personal struggle.*

 

Just now, henrymidfields said:

Surprisingly, I couldn't find the similar things with either Sylvain x Ingrid/Dimitri. (Or could it be in the main story and I've just missed it?) You know, two people who should actually know about Sylvain better than Byleth or Mercedes. Now, I know this could mean a whole lot of things, but it raises a couple of yellow flags with me that the people who are supposed to be close friends don't actually discuss then proverbial elephant inside Sylvain's emotional room. At the very least Dimitri could have more explicitly acknowledge Sylvain's (and Mercedes's) situation and more explicitly realise the negative side of crests on society. (Again, maybe this was in a conversation that I missed.) 

I'm not surprised at all. I have several childhood friends, and I don't always talk to them about the same things. Some of them I can trust with parts of my life I don't trust others with. Others I love like brothers but aren't emotionally available or responsible enough for me to trust in that sort of way since I'M the one who has to be emotionally available and responsible. Why should Ingrid focus on Sylvain's pain when she's too busy dealing with her own pain and situations while also cleaning up Sylvain's messes? The same is true for Dimitri. (It could also be because that's a comfortable dynamic for them.) Meanwhile, Byleth and Mercedes are closer to the "mentor" category and newer in his social circle, so they can spot threads that those close to him have simply grown accustomed to seeing. 

Besides, both do show concern for their friend, even if they aren't aware of the entire situation.* If Sylvain isn't in your House by Chapter 5, Ingrid explicitly asks Byleth to leave Sylvain alone so he can cope with the situation with Miklan:

Quote
  • Ingrid: Professor, please leave Sylvain alone for the time being. The thing is, the bandits' leader who stole the Relic...is Sylvain's disinherited older brother.

 

Before the fight on the Blue Lions path, Dimitri is worried about how Sylvain will handle the upcoming battle:

Quote
  • Sylvain: Don't bother losing your head over those lowlifes, Your Highness. It's wasted effort.
  • Dimitri: Sylvain... The thieves' leader...the one who stole the Relic. Word has it he's your older brother. I know he's been disowned, but...
  • Sylvain: He is no longer a member of House Gautier...or my brother. He's nothing more than a common thief.
  • Dimitri: Are you sure about that? It would be understandable to find this situation...well, regrettable, to say the least.
  • Sylvain: Regrets? Heh, you must be joking. You know we're far past the point of regret. And it always falls on the younger brother to clean up the mistakes of their elders, doesn't it?

 

The two DO care about Sylvain, but to them, he's always been a flirt. (He was flirting with Ingrid's GRANDMOTHER as a child.) Why should there be anything else linked to it? At first, why should WE think there would be anything else linked to it, given characters such as Sain and Gatrie in the past?

 

Or you could just view it as all of them being emotionally unhealthy and these are yellow flags. That's fair too, because 99% of the Blue Lions ARE emotionally unhealthy. 

 

As for Mercedes and Dimitri, there actually is a hint that Dimitri knows her past. The B+ Support ends with Mercedes getting ready to open up to Dimitri. (Although given the context, it may have been about her pre-Church life.) Sadly, the A-Support doesn't really follow up on this, but it's there.

 

Quote
  • Mercedes: You're no bother at all! I like sewing with you. It reminds me of when I was young and my mother taught me how to sew. My mother would sit with my brother and me and we'd all sew together. Ah, I really miss it. Even though I was barely better than you when I started. Did your mother like to sew, Dimitri?
  • Dimitri: My birth mother? From my father's accounts, she wasn't great at it either.
  • Mercedes: Oh, of course. I forgot that the queen of Faerghus passed away long ago.
  • Dimitri: Yes. I don't really remember what she was like. But I remember my stepmother...always sitting by the window, sewing away.
  • Mercedes: I'm sure she would have been happy to teach you if you had asked.
  • Dimitri: She always looked so lonely when she was sewing. So unreachable... She was kind to me, yes. But when she was like that, it was hard to talk to her. I'm not certain she would have wished to teach me.
  • Mercedes: I'm so sorry, Dimitri. I didn't mean to bring up such difficult memories.
  • Dimitri: Don't worry about it. If I don't talk about those things sometimes, I'll risk forgetting them altogether. And that would truly be a shame.
  • Mercedes: I see...
  • Dimitri: Ah, but now I'm just going on and on about myself. Why don't you tell me more about you?
  • Mercedes: More about me? Oh, goodness. I don't even know what to say.
  • Dimitri: It's hard to think of something on the spot, isn't it? You could speak of your family, I suppose.
  • Mercedes: You want to know more about my family? On that topic, I'm happy to oblige. In fact, I'm so glad you asked.
  • Dimitri: It's important to think about your past and share it every now and then.
  • Mercedes: This might take a while, but would you be willing to stay and listen?
  • Dimitri: Of course. I will listen for as long as you wish.

 

 

Just now, henrymidfields said:

And this includes him trying to understand why Edelgard acted the way she did, even if he cannot completely forgive her.

But Edelgard never mentions anything about Crests being a problem to Dimitri. The two's talk at the end of the game never even brings up Crests. This is information we know because in one version of the story Edelgard told Byleth, but this information isn't openly available to all. Edelgard can't be justified as right for waging war on the basis of changes she never made for reasons she really never explained outside of "I don't like the church, let's rebel and create a better future." It's like saying that everyone knows Claude's heritage when they don't. Claude is a very mysterious person in-game, but no one has any reason to doubt he's from Fodlan. (Outside of Lorenz (whose family would have been next in line to be leaders of the Alliance) and Balthus (who was hired by Lorenz's family).) Using meta-information is fun to help us figure out things about characters, but it doesn't always work well in-world. 

 

Quote
  • Dimitri: Edelgard. I did not think you would actually accept my request.
  • Edelgard: Call it a whim. Well then? What did you want to talk about?
  • Dimitri: I will get straight to the point. Why did you start this war? There had to be a way to change things in your territory without the need for so many senseless casualties.
  • Edelgard: It may be hard to believe, but this is the way that leads to the fewest casualties in the end. Don't you see?
  • Dimitri: How could I? Countless people have already lost their lives in this conflict.
  • Edelgard: The longer we took to revolt, the more victims this crooked world would have claimed. I weighed the victims of war against the victims of the world as it is now, and I chose the former. I believe that I have chosen the best path, the only path.
  • Dimitri: Even after seeing the faces of those who have suffered the ravages of war, you would still force them to throw their lives away for the future? You are obsessively devoted to this war and deaf to the screams of its victims. You cannot change the cycle of the strong dominating the weak with a method like that.
  • Edelgard: You're wrong. That very cycle is exactly what I have devoted my life and my power to destroying. If after all of this you believe the weak will still be weak, that is only because they are too used to relying on others instead of on themselves.
  • Dimitri: Yes. Perhaps someone as strong as you are can claim something like that. But you cannot force that belief onto others. People aren't as strong as you think they are. There are those who cannot live without their faith...and those who cannot go on once they have lost their reason for living. Your path will not be able to save them. It is the path of the strong, and so, it could only benefit the strong.
  • Edelgard: Heh, so you consider me strong, do you? Even if one clings to their faith, the goddess will never answer them. Countless souls will be lost that way. Living without purpose. And I can be counted among those who have died that way as well. But that's why I must change this world, on behalf of the silent and weak!
  • Dimitri: And do you intend to become a goddess yourself? Will you steal the power to take action from the broken-hearted masses you claim to defend? The ones who can truly change the way of the world are not the rulers, but the people. Pushing your own sense of justice and your own ideals onto even one other person is no more than self-righteousness.
  • Edelgard: Maybe it is self-righteousness, but it doesn't matter. Someone has to take action and put a stop to this world's endless, blood-stained misery!
  • Dimitri: Do you not believe in the power of people to join together and rise up? Humans are weak creatures. But they are also creatures who help each other, support each other, and together, find the right path. I have learned that humans are capable of all that from the professor...and from everyone in my life.
  • Edelgard: I doubt a highborn person like yourself could know how the poor feel or what motivates them.
  • Edelgard: This is nonsense. Thought, I'm finally starting to understand how you feel. But that makes it even clearer to me that we can never fully understand each other.
  • Dimitri: I feel the same. I finally understand...what you believe is right.

 

Just now, henrymidfields said:

I'll have to continue this on some other day as I am in the middle of work.

No problem! Work hard, and we'll continue this another time. 

*Although there is a bit of fun fridge logic - Dimitri is probably VERY aware of Sylvain's situation when it comes to women viewing him as something of a social stepladder. As the next king, he probably has to deal with dozens more marriage proposals and women looking for a child-bearing Crest. But Dimitri doesn't seem to hate women as a result. He simply doesn't deal with the issue at all. Felix also seems to be aware of this, as his supports with Dorothea are somewhat based around this assumption. But he also doesn't care, since he views nearly anything that isn't improving his sword skills as a distraction. 

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1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:
In VW and AM, all three things you've said have occurred: Rhea is captured, Dimitri is missing, and Cornelia is put in charge of Faerghus while the rest of the kingdom is either waging civil war or resisting IIRC. But Edelgard doesn't enact any changes, she just lets Cornelia do what the tyrant wants. Edelgard's war did NOTHING for the people of Faerghus, and she didn't even have time to impact any changes on the Alliance either, since they were 50/50 on obeying her in AM, and fully against her in VW.

To be fair to Edelgard, she probably didn't have much say in the matter, but it's still important to know for this discussion.

Right. That would be something I'll change if I ever do an AM LP fanfic similar to Fates, and something I'd happy to see changed in a remake. Make Edelgard actually rule parts of Faerghus, and rule it well. Since 3H's conflict is much less black and white unlike other FE games, I'd like to see this pushed further in a hypothetical remake or retelling (like what's done in for example Pokemon Ultra SM as opposed to original SM).

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:
Why don't you think other countries wouldn't allow the same thing, particularly the Alliance? The Golden Deer have more commoners in their class than BE and BL, and none of the members seem to say anything about NOT having chances in the military. I mean, isn't one of the points of Garrag Mach to give everyone who comes an equal chance at becoming a knight and achieving their potential? The only problem is the high entry price - something Leonie complains about. But it's also not the only school in Fodlan - Fhirdiad has a Magic Academy (that Annette, Mercedes, and Lorenz all went to), and several of Annette's endings involve her creating a new school of magic. I think this is more egalitarian than many changes, as access to education for all goes a LONG way in achieving equal opportunities for all. 

That should also be something that should be further brought up if there's ever a remake or an update.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:
The two DO care about Sylvain, but to them, he's always been a flirt. (He was flirting with Ingrid's GRANDMOTHER as a child.) Why should there be anything else linked to it? At first, why should WE think there would be anything else linked to it, given characters such as Sain and Gatrie in the past?

Or you could just view it as all of them being emotionally unhealthy and these are yellow flags. That's fair too, because 99% of the Blue Lions ARE emotionally unhealthy. 

That's indeed my point. BL reminds me of unpleasant toxic conservatism and honor-based culture in Japan that has difficulty in actually improving society and instead continues with its obsession of honour. And I'd like to see this more explored in a remake.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

But Edelgard never mentions anything about Crests being a problem to Dimitri. The two's talk at the end of the game never even brings up Crests. This is information we know because in one version of the story Edelgard told Byleth, but this information isn't openly available to all. Edelgard can't be justified as right for waging war on the basis of changes she never made for reasons she really never explained outside of "I don't like the church, let's rebel and create a better future."

See, I think that conversation between Dimi vs Edie was botched. I would have Edie bring out the question of crests, and I'll even bring out her manifesto, not only in CF but also in AM. And alongside how she grivances she does have of the church. And I would add further dialogue between Rhea and Dimi/Byleth afterwards and reflect how she also (unintentionally) had a hand in causing the conflict in the first place, and decides to entrust Byleth who at least have more interactions with people across Fodlan. TLDR, as with above, I'd rewrite this entirely and add extra dialogue, so that Dimi and Rhea realises their shortcomings - and this goes back to how BL is emotionally unhealthy as you pointed out. And how they need to change if they and their society wants to survive.

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22 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Make Edelgard actually rule parts of Faerghus, and rule it well.

But why does Edelgard feel like the only good ruler in your version? Why can't Dimitri, someone who has been raised by birth to rule, who cares about his friends, peers, and the problems of his nation, who sees multiple perspectives to arguments that others see in black-and-white, be a good ruler? Besides, it's not like Dimitri's father and regent were bad rulers. The whole Tragedy at Duscur was a retaliation for a beloved ruler - the whole plot of the king dying was because he was going to improve (already smooth-going) relations to the people of Duscur.

I think that's the crux of the problem between you and me - it feels very much you want to make Edelgard out to be a saint to the detriment of the characterization of others, and I'm not a fan of that. If you want Dimitri to put a more egalitarian rule into place, then it can be added without Edelgard, because as I quoted already, it's a desire of the character himself. Egalitarian features are a core desire of all three house leaders, but for different reasoning. But if you look at Dimitri's endings, you'll realize that the changes desire are already more or less there.

 

22 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

like what's done in for example Pokemon Ultra SM as opposed to original SM

I understand what you're saying here, but the example falls flat to me. I did NOT like USUM. It was one of the very few Pokémon remakes/reboots/sequels to a mainline game I never finished (alongside B2W2, but for different reasons). I felt like the villains were stronger, more sadistic and more overall evil in SM, and that made them fun to take down. It's the friend-ification  of antagonists in the Pokémon franchise, and it's something I consider a problem. But that's a tangent for another time and thread; and I do understand your point, even if I don't agree with it. 

 

22 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

That's indeed my point. BL reminds me of unpleasant toxic conservatism and honor-based culture in Japan that has difficulty in actually improving society and instead continues with its obsession of honour. And I'd like to see this more explored in a remake.

They explore it in multiple supports here, especially through Felix and Dimitri. Both of them have seen firsthand how much chivalry and knighthood have destroyed the lives of those they love, and how endemic it is to their society as a whole.

Just look at Dimitri and Ingrid's support B-Supports, and Felix & Seteth's Supports (emphasis mine):

 

Quote
  • Dimitri: In a just world, you would be happily married to Glenn. He...he truly loved you. And it's clear that you cared deeply for him as well. But on that awful night, he died right before my eyes. I could do nothing to prevent it. In a way, I'm responsible for you losing the joyous future that should have been yours. I know my words can change nothing but... I'm so sorry, Ingrid.
  • Ingrid: No, Your Highness. There's...there's no need to apologize. Glenn's death... It still doesn't feel real. I always looked up to Glenn. He was the very picture of a perfect knight—noble and virtuous. In the end, he laid down his life—the ultimate sacrifice. I feel proud of him in ways that words can't quantify.
  • Dimitri: Proud? Truly?
  • Ingrid: That's right. I feel proud that he died for those he was sworn to protect. Proud that he passed from this realm to the next as a perfect knight.
  • Dimitri: Are you really trying to turn his needless death into an ideal to uphold? Gah, you and he are so alike.
  • Ingrid: Needless death? How can you say that? Glenn gave his life for you—for everyone—and this is how you speak of his sacrifice?
  • Dimitri: You weren't there. You didn't witness his last moments. If you had, you wouldn't feel that way.
  • Ingrid: I don't care to hear your interpretation of his final moments! He was and will always be an ideal knight!
  • Dimitri: You would do well to rethink that ideal, my friend.
  • Ingrid: Pardon me? He served in your guard! He took great pride in what he did—in protecting you! The very least you can do...is not spit on his memory! If you'll excuse me.

(Ingrid leaves)

  • Dimitri: What is the matter with me?
Quote
  • Ingrid: Your Highness. I've come to apologize. I mismanaged my feelings and got carried away. I've been thinking about what might have made you say the things you did... I was so caught up in the moment, and in my own feelings, that I didn't think of what yours might be.
  • Dimitri: No... I should be the one to apologize. I did not intend to say such things. I lashed out like a child. You were right to rebuke me. I am disgusted by my own inability to express myself. Will you allow me to explain?
  • Ingrid: Of course.
  • Dimitri: At the Tragedy of Duscur, I saw countless corpses. Of course, I saw his too...Glenn's. Ingrid, I doubt you would have been able to see him. They were unable to bring his body back, after all. He must have died an agonizing death, full of pain and regret. That is what I saw in his face.
  • Ingrid: …
  • Dimitri: In that wasteland, there were no beautiful, proud deaths that could have been written about in heroic tales. Not one. I do not want you to die a death like that. Not even for the sake of loyalty or duty.
  • Ingrid: A king must, at times, order his soldiers and knights to fight and die on his behalf. Their lives must be used for the greater good—this is something any good king understands innately. Any king who doesn't allow people to die on his behalf is too soft to rule well.
  • Dimitri: You leave me little room for argument. Have I disappointed you?
  • Ingrid: No. I chose to serve you because of how you are. As a knight, I will stand by your side and uphold our soft–hearted ideals.
  • Dimitri: What has changed, Ingrid? You were so obstinate the other day...
  • Ingrid: I've realized that I haven't been facing a very important truth. Because of you, I can finally move on. Thank you.
  • Dimitri: Hm...

 

Quote
  • Seteth: It is not my intention to spy. I am merely concerned about you. I do not think you have been keeping your friends at a distance because you dislike them personally. Rather, I think what bothers you is their concept of proper knighthood. Is that not so?
  • Felix: Hmph. You really have been watching me closely. You're correct. I don't understand why they revere knighthood. I won't be friends with anyone who believe in that nonsense.
  • Seteth: Do you feel that way because of what happened in the Tragedy of Duscur? I have heard the story. Your brother was one of the royal knights. He gave his life to defend the prince.
  • Felix: My brother was doing his job. My father is the real problem. When my brother's armor was brought back to the castle, do you know what he said? "He died like a true knight." Chivalry begets the worship and glorification of death. Am I alone in finding that grotesque? I suppose you'll excommunicate me for blaspheming like this.
  • Seteth: Not at all. I am not a knight, so I have no intentions of lecturing you about chivalry. So long as one's conduct is consistent with the teachings of the goddess, it is up to the individual to decide right from wrong.
  • Felix: In that case, I'd like you to formally pardon me for not having friends.
  • Seteth: You require no such pardon. This is merely advice from an old man to a younger one. As unwavering as your convictions may be, the others also feel strongly about their beliefs. If you hate all those whose beliefs are different from yours, you will hate everyone eventually. People with exactly the same beliefs as you simply do not exist.
  • Felix: ...
  • Seteth: You do not have to change your beliefs, of course. But you do have to accept that others feel differently. That is my advice to you. I will speak no more of it.
  • Felix: Seteth. Can I ask one thing? Why are you going out of your way to tell me this? Why bother with me at all?
  • Seteth: Because I trust you. Now that I have heard what you have to say, I trust you even more. I am also a rather eccentric person. I thought you and I might get along.
  • Felix: I see. You've gone to so much trouble, I may have to start making an effort as well.
  • Seteth: Good. Do not take this the wrong way, but I hope you will surpass my expectations.

 

But the problem with what you're proposing is tangentially linked to egalitarian efforts at best. Knighthood and Sacrifice don't mean that no one can become a knight. It's really the opposite for them, as a commoner who was adopted (but never expected to inherit) a noble house and a girl who is expected to marry for her family both dream and work towards becoming knights. People can rise up and becoming these glorious figures found only in stories. That's how Faerghus works. 

But even with all that, Dimitri desired change before the story - he was doing his best to find proof that the people of Duscur weren't behind his parents' murder. He brought someone from Duscur in as a retainer. He constantly tries to be the peacekeeper to his fellow house leaders and accepts them as comrades and friends as much as possible. Dimitri sees both sides to the Crest problem and desires a middle outcome. He - like Claude and Edelgard - simply wants a world where everyone is accepted and valued. While Dimitri's plan on doing so was going to be a path of peace, Edelgard's was a path of war. 

 

22 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

See, I think that conversation between Dimi vs Edie was botched.

I don't blame you there. But I think it captures the heart of these characters: 

Edelgard was a person who was externally tortured, abused, and put in a nearly impossible to escape from situation, and she found salvation in her internal strength. Thus, her path is a reflection of that, believing that if she can tear down the external world as it is, then those with the internal strength to survive and forge on will create a new world. 

Dimitri is externally fine but was internally tortured (and for nearly ten years probably insane). His salvation was found in the grace, sacrifice, and love of those around him. That's why his desire is to create a world where people don't have to deal with too many external pressures, because he knows how debilitating the internal ones they may be facing already are. 

That mindset is present, even if the words are a little wonky to us. 

 

22 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

I would have Edie bring out the question of crests, and I'll even bring out her manifesto, not only in CF but also in AM.

That wouldn't change anything, because at this point, Edelgard wouldn't stop on her path* and Dimitri doesn't agree with any of her philosophies.

She could say "I want to make an egalitarian world," and Dimitri would counter with "I agree with respecting everyone equally too, but waging war isn't the way to get there - did you think about those who will be persecuted by whoever LOSES the war?"

Edelgard could say "the Crests are to blame, and the church is behind the creation of Crests and has been lying to us by manipulating our lives." Dimitri could easily counter with "Yeah, I know the church has been lying - Count Lonato was from my kingdom and was the adoptive father of my friend. I know all about what the Church did because Ashe is my friend. But how much power does the Church actually have over the Empire, Edelgard? Have you read any of their scriptures recently? Because it's stated pretty clearly that the Goddess - and the Church by proxy - isn't okay with the sway the Crests have over this world. Do you truly think that the Church would not help you change the world so that Crests are not a focus? Do you truly think that you could not have done this without waging a war and destroying the lives of countless innocent people?"

Edelgard could say "I want to create a world where the strong can rise up without the shackles of this vile society oppressing them because of their status," and Dimitri could say "great, so do I, but by using your Crest, aren't you just reinforcing the status quo?" Edelgard could respond with her intentions of stepping down after it's set in stone, and Dimitri could counter with how there are no guarantees that her replacement would keep the changes. Edelgard could state how she would prepare and groom her apprentice, and then Dimitri could state how that's really not much better than grooming one's child for the throne.* 

They'd go in circles and ultimately end up not agreeing much like how they don't agree in the version they got, because they have different views and their personal lines of acceptability cross. Edelgard can hate the Church, but the Church has done good by people Dimitri can personally support such as Mercedes, Marianne, and Catherine. Edelgard can hate Crests, but she's actively using hers; she isn't propping up those who come from lesser backgrounds as leaders in her war outside of maybe Ladislavia, who is no different from Dedue in that regard. 

 

22 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

And I would add further dialogue between Rhea and Dimi/Byleth afterwards and reflect how she also (unintentionally) had a hand in causing the conflict in the first place, and decides to entrust Byleth who at least have more interactions with people across Fodlan.

Rhea doesn't have anything to do with the current Crest culture though. Her hand in the conflict is entirely due to TWSITD. Had they not been involved, then Rhea's issues would be all Part 1 stuff. Besides, Rhea's retirement in AM is entirely because of how guilty she feels over everything that's happened. She even states this in her S-Support. 

Quote
  • Rhea: I am not qualified to continue leading the people... Though my intention was to keep the peace in Fódlan, I still propagated a false history and deceived my faithful followers. I also took advantage of my position as archbishop to further my own selfish goal of seeing my mother again. If my foolish actions had anything to do with the war, I-
  • Byleth: We're all happy you returned to us.
  • Rhea: I wonder... After all I have done...is it truly acceptable for me to go on living my life? You are aware that it is my fault your fate has been so cruel, are you not? You have become so strong... You and I...we were brought together by the flow of time, and bound by the hands of fate. I took you on as a professor, and ever since... Well, I believe with all of my heart that this outcome was meant to be. Oh... Perhaps it is disrespectful of me to say that.
  • Byleth: How is it disrespectful?
  • Rhea: Because it gives all of the credit to time and to fate, and doesn't pay you due honor for all of the choices you made that brought us to this moment. For all that you have done... For all the joy that you have brought me... Thank you. Ever since the tragedy at the Red Canyon, I have lived a solitary life. In an effort to fill the hole left by that solitude, I took up the challenge of reviving the progenitor god... I wished for you to become the progenitor god... I wished desperately to be held in my mother's arms once more...

 

22 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

TLDR, as with above, I'd rewrite this entirely and add extra dialogue, so that Dimi and Rhea realises their shortcomings

They both do in their epilogues, particularly Dimitri's Single Ending and Rhea's Paired Ending. Heck, Dimitri's Single Ending explicitly mentions him reforming Fodlan and making it more egalitarian, no Edelgard required:

Quote

After his coronation, Dimitri spent his life reforming and ruling justly over Fódlan. He focused particularly on improving living situations for orphans and improving foreign relations. He was known for listening intently to the voices of all, and for instituting a new form of government in which the people were free to be active participants. He lived for his people and alongside them, and was thusly dubbed the Savior King.

 

23 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

and this goes back to how BL is emotionally unhealthy as you pointed out. And how they need to change if they and their society wants to survive.

They need a society that isn't constantly at war with their enemies and can have good harvests to survive. Most of the lack of emotional health is due to trauma and a lack of mental health awareness, not just societal problems. If they weren't at war with the Sreng, then Sylvain wouldn't need to be valued only for his Crest - something his ending achieves by either having him achieve peace with the Sreng or have him convince the nobles near him. But guess when Dimitri and Sylvain and others make all of these changes? After the war, not during the war, because there wasn't time. Not because of the war, because most of these issues were theoretically or explicitly brought up before the war. After the war, because that's when people had time to make the changes, assuming they survived to make them. (Which is an assumption I think we can both agree on.)

Oh, and we can't forget to blame TWSITD. If King Lambert wasn't assassinated, then Felix, Dimitri, Dedue, Annette, and Ingrid would all be in better shape - Felix wouldn't hate the knight culture (probably), Ingrid would be happily married and not too into the knight culture, Dedue would have his family, Dimitri wouldn't suffer Survivor's Guilt, and Gilbert would still be with his family.

The Church can only really be blamed for Ashe's trauma, and only for the stuff that's mostly happened onscreen during the game. 

 

Ultimately, it sounds like you want things to be shown in a game that tells us about them, and for more emphasis to be put on something that doesn't need emphasis on, just so you can say a character you liked "won" in the end. And I totally get it! But I do think it's unnecessary in several circumstances.

I do think, however, an expansion in to Sreng by giving us a character or two from there and another character or so from Almyra, Brigid, and Duscur would be really cool for a remake. Then again, I'm almost always of the mindset of "the more characters, the better." (This isn't true of course, as Fates proved, but it's something I resonate with despite the flaws.)

 

*a problem she has with Claude too - her ideas aren't entirely wrong, but she doesn't trust others to put them in place. She believes she's the ONLY one who can change the world for the better, and that creates mistrust among those who would help her...unless Byleth is at her side. Then she's more trusting, more hopeful, and more open. Again, the idea that Byleth brings out the best in all of the house leaders comes back)

 

 

Now onto a different remake idea: 

An Awakening Remake should have the Valm arc played in the style of Genealogy. I think that'd be a really fun change-up for fans of the game, reinforce the Genealogy DNA within Awakening, and really demonstrate the scope of this arc. Players could have some pretty fun side-quests, such as the Liberation of Roxanne (in my remake idea, Say'ri would switch places with Virion, so Virion is now leading the rebellion and Say'ri is a political refugee), visiting Chon'sin, and seeing some of the ruins of the more iconic places from Alm and Celica's game. Also, Players would visit Thabes before fighting Grima.

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So over in General Gaming, @Lord_Brand put some of his ideas for an Awakening remaster out there. While I don't like it as a business or a series move, I'm always one to play ball on theorycrafting. So what would I want to see out of it?

All DLC included in the base game. This is what makes a definitive edition, well "definitive", and sweetens the pot both for series newbies and fans of the original release.

Full voice acting. The base game could only let Chrom exclaim "Gods!" so many times. Full voicework was one of the biggest presentation improvements Echoes brought us, and Three Houses proved that it can exist in a game with lots of supports.

Adjusting Pairup system to be Fates-like. There's no question that Awakening's Pair-Up system is absolutely broken mechanically. Love it or hate it, there's nary a reason not to be paired-up. Fates, though, in differentiating Attack and Guard Stances, not only provided a motive to leave units unpaired at times, but also made their activations deterministic (and, thereby, something to strategize around).

Adjusting Reclass system to be Fates-like. The Second Seal was a really cool innovation of Awakening, but Fates took it further with the Partner and Buddy Seals. By letting units reclass to match their support partners, suddenly most characters can make it into nearly any class!

A few new supports for Robin-sexuals. Stuff that would make sense, like Say'ri-Virion and Lon'qu-Lucina. Maybe some with the FreeLC units, like "Yenfay"-Say'ri and Walhart-Chrom, too. These could just cap at A-rank, I'm not demanding any new romances. Or am I?

Same-sex romantic options for Robin. I'm thinking two bisexual characters each from the "Corrinsexuals", the "big breeding pool", and the "junior generation". I'm not specifying who because, well, I don't want to start a shipping war.

Skin tone options for Robin. Light/Medium/Dark. Maybe more if they feel like it. This seems like such a no-brainer for an intended "Avatar" character, particularly one whose "canon" skin color differs significantly from that of their biological father.

These are the main changes that came to my mind. Bad ideas, or good? Asking too much of IS/Nintendo, or too little? Lemme know!

On 12/12/2021 at 11:29 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Now onto a different remake idea: 

An Awakening Remake should have the Valm arc played in the style of Genealogy. I think that'd be a really fun change-up for fans of the game, reinforce the Genealogy DNA within Awakening, and really demonstrate the scope of this arc. Players could have some pretty fun side-quests, such as the Liberation of Roxanne (in my remake idea, Say'ri would switch places with Virion, so Virion is now leading the rebellion and Say'ri is a political refugee), visiting Chon'sin, and seeing some of the ruins of the more iconic places from Alm and Celica's game. Also, Players would visit Thabes before fighting Grima.

This would be a rather radical change. By "Genealogy style", do you mean "it's just the kids doing the fighting now", or "big old multi-castle maps"? In a game that never asks you to Sieze anything, a map that wants you to Sieze multiple castles in a row would feel kind of jarring.

TBH a "Thabes map", or even sequence of maps, as one of the FreeLC Paralogues would be pretty cool.

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29 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All DLC included in the base game. This is what makes a definitive edition, well "definitive", and sweetens the pot both for series newbies and fans of the original release.

Full voice acting. The base game could only let Chrom exclaim "Gods!" so many times. Full voicework was one of the biggest presentation improvements Echoes brought us, and Three Houses proved that it can exist in a game with lots of supports.

Adjusting Pairup system to be Fates-like. There's no question that Awakening's Pair-Up system is absolutely broken mechanically. Love it or hate it, there's nary a reason not to be paired-up. Fates, though, in differentiating Attack and Guard Stances, not only provided a motive to leave units unpaired at times, but also made their activations deterministic (and, thereby, something to strategize around).

Adjusting Reclass system to be Fates-like. The Second Seal was a really cool innovation of Awakening, but Fates took it further with the Partner and Buddy Seals. By letting units reclass to match their support partners, suddenly most characters can make it into nearly any class!

A few new supports for Robin-sexuals. Stuff that would make sense, like Say'ri-Virion and Lon'qu-Lucina. Maybe some with the FreeLC units, like "Yenfay"-Say'ri and Walhart-Chrom, too. These could just cap at A-rank, I'm not demanding any new romances. Or am I?

Same-sex romantic options for Robin. I'm thinking two bisexual characters each from the "Corrinsexuals", the "big breeding pool", and the "junior generation". I'm not specifying who because, well, I don't want to start a shipping war.

Skin tone options for Robin. Light/Medium/Dark. Maybe more if they feel like it. This seems like such a no-brainer for an intended "Avatar" character, particularly one whose "canon" skin color differs significantly from that of their biological father.

These are the main changes that came to my mind. Bad ideas, or good? Asking too much of IS/Nintendo, or too little? Lemme know!

Great ideas, and theoretically all easily implemented into a Remaster - look at how much Persona 5 Royal included and improved from the base game. Despite that I still play the base game so I don't feel guilty about not romancing Kasumi.

Now whether or not Nintendo would do that is another question entirely. I'd like to think that they would, but I'm not sure that faith would be rewarded...

Granted, I LIKE how broken the Pair-Up is. Maybe it could be treated as a setting? So you could either have the Remaster-style which is akin to Fates, the Classic-style, and the Omit version, where those who don't like Pair-Ups can choose to have it turned off? 

Also, adjusting reclassing may mean that inheritance may also need to be fixed, since the two are pretty linked in both 3DS games where they show up. 

 

32 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This would be a rather radical change. By "Genealogy style", do you mean "it's just the kids doing the fighting now", or "big old multi-castle maps"? In a game that never asks you to Sieze anything, a map that wants you to Sieze multiple castles in a row would feel kind of jarring.

"Big old multi-castle maps" I think this would be a really interesting change of pace, and also help differentiate the settings as well as objectives. I think it will also only be jarring if we keep the original objectives from the first game, something I'd like to see changed in a remake. 

One of the major complaints I hear about Awakening - outside of the art style, Lunatic+ annoyance, characterization, pair up, and pretty much every single aspect - is that the maps are pretty monotonous - they always ask players to defeat all opponents or defeat the boss, relying on reinforcements to complicate things rather than strategy most times. I think a remake is the perfect time to address that. Have some levels bring back the turn survival objective. Have other maps involve destroying parts of the environment to gain a tactical advantage. Have yet other maps be about raiding enemy supplies before their reinforcements arrive (reinforcements too strong to beat at the player's current level). Maybe even the reverse can be true by having maps where players defend supplies against Risen.

But back to the big maps thing, I just really like that idea as a way to sort of explore the scope of Walhart's conquest. I want players not only to see how much he's taken over, but also to feel his oppression by the sheer amount of objectives (it looks like) they need to accomplish in order to get close to the Conqueror. Maybe the same thing can be true for the second act of the game with Grima. Maybe once Grima rises, the land is now struggling against multiple Risen attacks, and the Shepherds have to deal with that while also dealing with the plot. It's a way to keep units useful without having to grind too too much, I think.

 

39 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

TBH a "Thabes map", or even sequence of maps, as one of the FreeLC Paralogues would be pretty cool.

Thanks! In my head I see this as a Dante's Divine Comedy sort of trio of maps or something similar. The Shepherds would travel there after Validar and Aversa bring back Grima in order to see if there's something in Grima's past that can kill the beast. They might find a potential weapon but nothing certain, or they may find nothing at all, and the quest only gave them information that can't be used...except to recreate Grima...* From there, they head to the Naga's holy place in the chapter "Awakening," and Chrom receives the Exalted Falchion.  

 

 

 

*Now I'm thinking of there being a third generation where Lucina and/or several of her allies travel back to their own world, and try to use this information to revive Naga. However, they create a blight that only someone with Grima's blood can cure....someone like a child of Robin (or Robin themself if they have no child). So Robin and/or Morgan is brought to this world, romanced over a few chapters, and we skip to the next generation that has to fix things once and for all. Yes, I know it's thematically similar to ideas I had for a Third Generation/Epilogue for a Genealogy Remake, but I just really like the thematic twisting of roles - but only briefly! 

Lucina, Severa, Inigo, and Odin clearly wouldn't be in this version of the game, if I had a say in things, as I'd like all four to be in Fateslandia. But I could see at least Soleil and Ophelia showing up here. ...I'm going to noodle on this idea a little more...

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Same-sex romantic options for Robin. I'm thinking two bisexual characters each from the "Corrinsexuals", the "big breeding pool", and the "junior generation". I'm not specifying who because, well, I don't want to start a shipping war.

Just admit you want to see gay Basilio.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

TBH a "Thabes map", or even sequence of maps, as one of the FreeLC Paralogues would be pretty cool.

Awakeing actually already has a Thabes map. Morgan's paralogue. It's on the same place in the world map, and unlike most Awakening geography I think this one might be intentional as they talk about how weird a place it is and you get Naga's Tear there.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

*Now I'm thinking of there being a third generation where Lucina and/or several of her allies travel back to their own world, and try to use this information to revive Naga. However, they create a blight that only someone with Grima's blood can cure....someone like a child of Robin (or Robin themself if they have no child). So Robin and/or Morgan is brought to this world, romanced over a few chapters, and we skip to the next generation that has to fix things once and for all. Yes, I know it's thematically similar to ideas I had for a Third Generation/Epilogue for a Genealogy Remake, but I just really like the thematic twisting of roles - but only briefly! 

Lucina, Severa, Inigo, and Odin clearly wouldn't be in this version of the game, if I had a say in things, as I'd like all four to be in Fateslandia. But I could see at least Soleil and Ophelia showing up here. ...I'm going to noodle on this idea a little more...

Are we even certain Odin, Selena and Laslow are the same characters as the playable ones in Awakening. Couldn't they be the versions of them that grew up in the Grima defeated timeline? Wait, no, I think they do say something about saving the world in the DLC. But I'm on mobile so I can't delete this quote even though I've just rendered my comment meaningless (unless the trio that are babies in Awakening saved the world from some other unknown threat).

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Awakeing actually already has a Thabes map. Morgan's paralogue. It's on the same place in the world map, and unlike most Awakening geography I think this one might be intentional as they talk about how weird a place it is and you get Naga's Tear there.

Ah gotcha! Thanks for the info. I doesn't really change what I'd want out of it, but I can rework that into what I'd like to see in a remake in some way. The Naga's Tear part always came out of the blue for me though. I don't remember it being relevant anywhere else or mentioned anywhere else, and I can't find any real info outside of its stat boosting properties on the Wiki. Maybe tying it into Thabes' lore would be a solid step in rectifying this (if it is a problem in the first place).

 

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Are we even certain Odin, Selena and Laslow are the same characters as the playable ones in Awakening. Couldn't they be the versions of them that grew up in the Grima defeated timeline? Wait, no, I think they do say something about saving the world in the DLC.

They mention their parents in present tense a couple of times IIRC, and Odin and Laslow explicitly mention one of the DLC scrambles. Odin also considers the past he and all of the other children go to separate than the one he came from. If there's some DLC about a tiara and a bear, then you're right in that they mention that as well.

 

Quote
  • Laslow: I suppose so. I just can't shake this feeling lately. We've nothing left of our old lives except each other and our fading memories. I can't help but wonder if my memories of our old world are just a dream of sorts.
  • Odin: Don't be silly. We're the same people. We existed. That world existed. And when we're done here, we're going back. You're just overthinking things. I know we're in over out heads, but that's no reason to start doubting your reality. Besides, if anything is part of a dream, it's this world.
  • Laslow: *sigh* Now I'm starting to wonder if anything is real.
  • Odin: ...
  • Laslow: Do you ever think of our original world anymore? The on we were born in?
  • Odin: I do. Mostly at night. I...have trouble sleeping sometimes because of it.
  • Laslow: Ah. So you too, then.
  • Odin: I also think of the other world. Of seeing my mother for the first time since... Gods, it was wonderful seeing her alive and well after what happened in our time. Oh, and helping our parents and the others defeat the dragon!
  • Laslow: That was a wonderful world. It was such a happy place, too. I mean, after Grima fell. Ah, remember looking for that tiara and then getting chased by a bear? Ha! We made some good memories there, didn't we?
  • Odin: Aye. And none of them were dreams. So cheer up!
  • Laslow: Yeah. You know, when we talk like this, it's hard to deny it was all real. I'm glad we didn't get separated this time. If you guys weren't here, I don't think... I don't think I could bear it.
  • Odin: Laslow...
  • Laslow: Thank you for being here for me. You've made good on your promise.
  • Odin: No problem! But, erm...what promise was that?
  • Laslow: Well, it was a long time ago. Remember that harvest festival we went to? When I was troubled about how we were fighting real people instead of Risen. You said you'd always be a shoulder for me to lean on. And you have been.
  • Odin: Ah, I remember that! Well, I meant every word. In any case, we'll be moving out any minute now. Let's get going, Inigo.
  • Laslow: Wh-what did you just call me?
  • Odin: What's wrong, Inigo of the Indigo Skies? Did you miss hearing your real name? Haha, calm down. It's fine, just this once. No one else is here. Severa can't get mad about something she doesn't know, right? Er. Probably.
  • Laslow: Haha! I guess not. Thank you Owain. I feel much better now.
  • Odin: Ah, he smiles! Perfect! I love seeing my archrival happy.
  • Laslow: Haha. I feel the same, old friend. That, at least will never change.

 

Yeah, Lucina and Co traveling back in time didn't happen with the Future Past kids either, so Odin and Co are definitely the same ones from Awakening.

Quote
  • Odin: Ophelia, listen. You may not have special powers, but you are unique. Heroic blood flows through your veins. It is the blood of the Exalt, who raised his sword against the world eating fell dragon. It is the blood of a woman whose courage led her to cross the bounds of time itself. And it is the blood that flowed out of two heroes who died to protect me.
  • Ophelia: Exalt? Fell dragon? Father, I don't understand. Why do you look like you're going to cry?
  • Odin: I'm sorry...it doesn't matter whether you understand or not right now. But eventually, a day will dawn when you can be proud to bear that mark. I knew a princess once who desired that mark, you know. But it never appeared. I believe she would be very happy that it has appeared on you, though. Someday I will tell you the whole story, Ophelia. But not today.

 

 

And in the below quote, Laslow (in his S-Support with Corrin) can be referring to either his friends or the family that's alive in the past. I think he means the latter, but I'm honestly not sure. 

Quote
  • Laslow: *sigh* The things one does for love... This reminds me though. Lady Corrin, I have a request. There are some people I'd like for you to meet as well. People from a place I once called home. They'll love you. I know it. I want more than anything to laugh and smile with them once more...

 

And then Laslow confuses us AGAIN in his A-Support with Soleil! When he says "original world," does he mean the future he came from, or the past he was summoned from? Or do they both count as one and the same to him, with Ylisse's world being the "original" and Fateslandia being the "other" world? Regardless, he does mention seeing his mother again, and he does reference their A-Support rather than their Future Past dialogue. 

Quote
  • Soleil: Hi! So yeah, you were great. You fell out of your turns a little, though. Watch that. And it might be prettier if you stretch your arms a bit higher during that middle part.
  • Laslow: ...
  • Soleil: Is something wrong, Dad? Oh, am I being way too harsh?
  • Laslow: Ha ha, not at all. Sorry, you just reminded me of someone very dear to me. A girl not unlike yourself used to give me similar feedback not too long ago.
  • Soleil: A girl? Who was it?! Was it Mom? Or some other girl you dated? Oh! Or was it a mysterious damsel you totally rescued...? Or maybe-
  • Laslow: Nope! Wrong on all counts. Like I said, you look a lot like her. She was kind, and strong, and she loved me with all her heart. *sigh*
  • Soleil: Hmm, I'm not so sure Mom would like you talking about another woman like that...
  • Laslow: Ha ha, she wouldn't mind at all. I'm talking about my mother. In other words, your grandmother.
  • Soleil: Oh! Well, I guess that's OK then. I was worried for a moment! ... Wait... Um, didn't you say she passed away? I guess she told you about dancing before that?
  • Laslow: No, after. It's a long story...but I got to see her one more time after she passed. She was about the same age as you and me at the time.
  • Soleil: That makes...literally no sense. Ugh, I'm so confused right now.
  • Laslow: It's complicated, for sure. Someday I'll tell you everything. At that time, I'll need you to make a tough decision for me... About whether to remain in this world or return with me to my original world.
  • Soleil: Your original world...?!

 

 

Oh! Selena alludes to her talking to her mom in exchange for desserts in her Children's Festival convo with Caeldori! ...I think. We never got that DLC, so it's all off of memory here. Regardless, we have enough in-game examples to prove that these are the trio from Awakening. 

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2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Ah gotcha! Thanks for the info. I doesn't really change what I'd want out of it, but I can rework that into what I'd like to see in a remake in some way. The Naga's Tear part always came out of the blue for me though. I don't remember it being relevant anywhere else or mentioned anywhere else, and I can't find any real info outside of its stat boosting properties on the Wiki. Maybe tying it into Thabes' lore would be a solid step in rectifying this (if it is a problem in the first place).

I do think they mention it at the start of the paralogue as nebulous treasure, but the real reference comes from the fact that Thabes is where Naga died.

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

They mention their parents in present tense a couple of times IIRC, and Odin and Laslow explicitly mention one of the DLC scrambles. Odin also considers the past he and all of the other children go to separate than the one he came from. If there's some DLC about a tiara and a bear, then you're right in that they mention that as well.

 

 

Yeah, Lucina and Co traveling back in time didn't happen with the Future Past kids either, so Odin and Co are definitely the same ones from Awakening.

 

 

And in the below quote, Laslow (in his S-Support with Corrin) can be referring to either his friends or the family that's alive in the past. I think he means the latter, but I'm honestly not sure. 

 

And then Laslow confuses us AGAIN in his A-Support with Soleil! When he says "original world," does he mean the future he came from, or the past he was summoned from? Or do they both count as one and the same to him, with Ylisse's world being the "original" and Fateslandia being the "other" world? Regardless, he does mention seeing his mother again, and he does reference their A-Support rather than their Future Past dialogue. 

 

 

Oh! Selena alludes to her talking to her mom in exchange for desserts in her Children's Festival convo with Caeldori! ...I think. We never got that DLC, so it's all off of memory here. Regardless, we have enough in-game examples to prove that these are the trio from Awakening. 

Fates had Scrambles DLC? Was that the mentioned Japanese only one? Because I can't recall Scrambles being in Fates. Either way it seems pretty explicit in that first quote that yes, these are indeed the time traveling kids. They even mention Grima, it can't get much more explicit than that. Though just conceptually I think it could have been more interesting if they did definitively makes these the versions of the characters that grew up in the peaceful world. It'd be kind of interesting to see how the nature element of life would affect the characters, kind of like Trunks and Future Trunks in Dragon Ball being different in personality but still clearly the same person. Though I suppose doing that and characterising them differently would go against the whole grain of bringing them back for fan service (then again keeping their same personality in that and just making allusions to a decades later peaceful post Awakening world wouldn't be the worst thing either, as the personalities they have in Awakening barely tie to the massive trauma they underwent in their own timeline).

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13 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Granted, I LIKE how broken the Pair-Up is. Maybe it could be treated as a setting? So you could either have the Remaster-style which is akin to Fates, the Classic-style, and the Omit version, where those who don't like Pair-Ups can choose to have it turned off? 

In principle, I like more options for the player, but in practice it makes things more difficult for the designers. A skill that grants "+10% Dual Guard chance", for instance, only makes sense under the old system. Personally I think Fates system is an improvement in every way, but I realize that any mechanical changes will be controversial. 

13 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Also, adjusting reclassing may mean that inheritance may also need to be fixed, since the two are pretty linked in both 3DS games where they show up. 

Why, though? Units could have the same two "Second Seal" classes, or as many as five for child units, while also getting a "Partner Seal" and "Buddy Seal" option. The one big question mark is with gender-locked classes - if Chrom marries Sumia, should he get Pegasus Knight, or a substitute class? I'm honestly undecided as to what design I'd prefer. 

Oh, one more change:

The boss of Cynthia's paralogue should be named "Chrom". If she saw his unit screen, she'd know she's being defrauded. The name "Ruger" is never relevant, so why not let him be known as his alias? Also give him navy blue hair, since one of the Xenologues confirms that technology exists.

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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

In principle, I like more options for the player, but in practice it makes things more difficult for the designers. A skill that grants "+10% Dual Guard chance", for instance, only makes sense under the old system. Personally I think Fates system is an improvement in every way, but I realize that any mechanical changes will be controversial.

Conceivably the same skill could work in two different ways under the two settings. As I think it does exist in both games. In one being a straight % increase, in the other by filling the dual gauge bar faster. Though just generally speaking it would be really weird to have such an integral part of the gameplay be so variable with a setting.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Fates had Scrambles DLC? Was that the mentioned Japanese only one? Because I can't recall Scrambles being in Fates.

The Scrambles DLCs from Awakening are mentioned in Fates, which is what I meant; but Fates had some DLCs like the Children's Festival one that were never released outside of Japan as far as I know. 

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Hoshidan_Festival_of_Bonds

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Nohrian_Festival_of_Bonds

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Though just conceptually I think it could have been more interesting if they did definitively makes these the versions of the characters that grew up in the peaceful world. It'd be kind of interesting to see how the nature element of life would affect the characters, kind of like Trunks and Future Trunks in Dragon Ball being different in personality but still clearly the same person. Though I suppose doing that and characterising them differently would go against the whole grain of bringing them back for fan service (then again keeping their same personality in that and just making allusions to a decades later peaceful post Awakening world wouldn't be the worst thing either, as the personalities they have in Awakening barely tie to the massive trauma they underwent in their own timeline).

I wouldn't mind seeing that either, but I'd prefer those alternate versions to appear in separate games, ala Caeldori, Rhajat, and Asugi. Give me a Lucina who was born and raised in Fodlan, IntSys! Give me FodLucina!!

 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Why, though? Units could have the same two "Second Seal" classes, or as many as five for child units, while also getting a "Partner Seal" and "Buddy Seal" option.

A big part of inheritance in Fates comes down to the ability to choose. Who will marry who? Who will they Friendship Seal? What skills will they pass down? What stats will they gain? All of those factors play into how units look, what skills they have access to, and what roles they play. Do I want a Berserker Mitama that's pure strength or an Oni Chieftan Mitama that is good at magic and strength? Do I marry Saizo to Felicia or Orochi to shore up his and Asugi's magic stat, or do I go with Beruka to shore up defenses? From there, does Asugi marry Selkie for Tomefaire, or Soleil for Shurikenbreaker? Or do I just have Saizo pass that down? And that's not bringing up the fact that children can't inherit all the classes the parents have if they have a separate class themselves. Shiro can't inherit Sky Knight from Ryoma, even if Ryoma marries Sakura. Kaze can't pass down the Samurai line to Midori, no matter how much or how little she wants it.

Meanwhile in Awakening, the children gain all of the classes that their parents have that aren't gender-locked. The questions are simpler: Who will marry who? What skills/stats will they gain? How can I make grinding easier? Characters like Severa can have over five base classes with the right parents, meaning that she can have over ten Promoted Classes. That's FAR more than what any child in Fates has, and that changes how inheritance works and what its purpose is. 

In Fates, inheritance is a puzzle; in Awakening, inheritance is a pot you throw everything into. One isn't inherently better than the other to me (although I do gain more joy out of puzzling out Fates' style of inheritance), but both have slightly different functions - to make Fates' style work in Awakening, you'd either have to separate the classes into Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary classes (not unlike what Azura has going on), or you'd have to make it so that each unit only has two Base classes (their Primary and Secondary), and then add in Partner Seal and Friendship Seal. Neither is worse or better, but it is an adjustment. 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The one big question mark is with gender-locked classes - if Chrom marries Sumia, should he get Pegasus Knight, or a substitute class? I'm honestly undecided as to what design I'd prefer.

This applies for Olivia as well, unless you'd want her Secondary Class to be Myrmidon. Also, I'd say Pegasus Knight, but that's just me. I don't like gender-locked classes simply because I don't find them balanced fairly. If there was a male class that had access to Galeforce or was as awesome as Gremory, then maybe I'd feel differently.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

This applies for Olivia as well, unless you'd want her Secondary Class to be Myrmidon. Also, I'd say Pegasus Knight, but that's just me. I don't like gender-locked classes simply because I don't find them balanced fairly. If there was a male class that had access to Galeforce or was as awesome as Gremory, then maybe I'd feel differently.

I'm generally not a fan of gender-locked classes either, and I found gender-unlocking (almost) all classes to be one of the best things Fates brought to the table. That said, gender-locking classes like Pegasus Knight and Barbarian seems to have been a conscious design decision in the original Awakening, so I'm very much hesitant to overturn it.

Oh, and substitute classes would be necessary for whoever partners with a Manakete or Taguel, too.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

In Fates, inheritance is a puzzle; in Awakening, inheritance is a pot you throw everything into. One isn't inherently better than the other to me (although I do gain more joy out of puzzling out Fates' style of inheritance), but both have slightly different functions - to make Fates' style work in Awakening, you'd either have to separate the classes into Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary classes (not unlike what Azura has going on), or you'd have to make it so that each unit only has two Base classes (their Primary and Secondary), and then add in Partner Seal and Friendship Seal. Neither is worse or better, but it is an adjustment. 

IMO it can still work with "two backup classes", you'd just get more options. Like, suppose you do Tharja x Kellam. Then Noire gets Archer as her base class, plus Dark Mage and Armor Knight from her mother, and Thief and Cleric from her father. There are still a bunch of classes she doesn't yet have access to - if she wants to go Swordmaster, she could pair with Owain. As for the parents, Kellam could use his marriage to Tharja to go Dark Mage, while Tharja could get Thief (since she already has Knight) from the arrangement.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Conceivably the same skill could work in two different ways under the two settings. As I think it does exist in both games. In one being a straight % increase, in the other by filling the dual gauge bar faster. Though just generally speaking it would be really weird to have such an integral part of the gameplay be so variable with a setting.

Yeah, it'd be like the ability to turn off critical hits. Even if you challenge yourself by never pairing up, your units could still "accidentally" get a dual strike in merely by being adjacent to each other. It's inviting from a "player freedom" perspective, but would be a nightmare to design around.

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

IMO it can still work with "two backup classes", you'd just get more options. Like, suppose you do Tharja x Kellam. Then Noire gets Archer as her base class, plus Dark Mage and Armor Knight from her mother, and Thief and Cleric from her father. There are still a bunch of classes she doesn't yet have access to - if she wants to go Swordmaster, she could pair with Owain.

It still feels like too many classes per character to me. But that's just me. Thanks for demonstrating how it could work though!

 

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for the parents, Kellam could use his marriage to Tharja to go Dark Mage, while Tharja could get Thief (since she already has Knight) from the arrangement.

I am 1000% on board with this fix though. I HATED how characters couldn't gain access to their spouse's Secondary Class in Fates if they already came in the Primary Class. It's why I can't recommend Selena/Subaki outside of just the dialogue. (Although in a Fates Remake, I'd honestly say that Caeldori is Selena's kid and give Subaki a completely new child.)

 

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's inviting from a "player freedom" perspective, but would be a nightmare to design around.

True, but if you're remaking the game anyways, why not include it?'

 

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Oh, and substitute classes would be necessary for whoever partners with a Manakete or Taguel, too.

Of course. Them, Dancers, and the Lords would all need automatic Secondary Classes for their partners. 

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