Triangle Strategy Thread

[Neoleo21]

28 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I think Decimal might be the best unit in videogames.

Arithmetician Class from FFT except rad af. 

They're also adorable and has an explanation in the story. Amazing.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Neoleo21

[Sasori]

On 3/21/2022 at 11:45 PM, vanguard333 said:

I recently reached chapter 9. I figured based on the dialogue that the decision to try to report the salt transport was the obvious solution that goes poorly while transporting the salt is the seemingly bad idea that ends up a great idea; something that reinforced that idea in my head was that the three people in opposition of it all had "it would be easier to convince a brick wall".

Unfortunately, I also figured this from (spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

Having accidentally spoiled myself on the existence of the secret fourth route and knowing that choosing to transport the salt is required to unlock that route.

So, I tried to go for that one, and not only did all three of them reject my persuasion despite being "deep in thought", but even the originally-undecided Anna voted against it despite having certainly sounded thoroughly convinced (though she also said "deep in thought").

So, a little googling revealed that I said the right words to persuade Anna but my Utility must've been too low (I only unlocked a character that apparently requires 275 utility at the start of the previous chapter and I need 400 to convince Anna).

First of all, what's the point of listing her as "undecided" if she's going to side against a particular decision by default; isn't that basically lying to the player?

Second, there have been extremely few opportunities at this point in the game to significantly raise utility through votes and such, so demanding 400 utility is basically telling the player "we don't want the player to do this until new game plus".

Third, the site said I could farm utility points by doing a couple of mock battles and making sure to grab loot, exploit weaknesses, and use quietuses. After doing that for a long time, I still didn't reach 400 (I know because I didn't unlock two characters that are unlocked by having 400 utility), so I checked another site, and it said that doing that stuff only raises utility by one or two points. So, I'm basically stuck: I can't have the vote go the way I want it to go unless I farm points for hours if not days; sarcastic "Yay!".

EDIT: After multiple hours of farming utility points, I got just enough to be able to persuade Anna, and only Anna.

 

I also learned that, apparently, for every losing vote made, the player loses ten points in that vote's conviction. …What?! That doesn't make any sense.

 

Anyway, is it clear that I really don't like choice systems in games where the game assigns arbitrary numerical values to those choices? If they really wanted this conviction system, then they should've kept the scales and ditched the numbers.

Spoiler

I would't base too much of your descisions on getting the golden ending on your first route. Its designed in such a way that you want to have a lot of characters leveled and recruited, which works best in new game plus.

But I have to say I never quite had that trouble with the voting system. Occasionally a character or two did't pick my side, but there always seemed to be a way to get the majority on board. Then again I did't go aesfrot where you are so maybe that one is a bit more tricky. I do agree that the points should't have mattered in descision making though.

[Saint Rubenio]

In other news, I must say that I've been quite enjoying myself in my hard NG+ run. Maybe I'm just bad, but it's been REALLY tough. Chapters 1 and 7 were hellish. I'm still finding ways to put the entire cast to use where I can, though. I love them all too much.

I'd like to take a moment to appreciate the NG+ mock battles. Super challenging, but so good. Beating No Soldier Left Behind by routing the enemy was the most difficult thing I've done in the game, but also some of the most fun I've had with it. The game has managed to stay fresh even though I jumped straight to NG+. I don't know if I'll do all four routes, but I can see myself finishing this second one.

2 hours ago, Neoleo21 said:

Arithmetician Class from FFT except rad af. 

They're also adorable and has an explanation in the story. Amazing.

It whacks people over the head with a telescope! How awesome is that!?

[Neoleo21]

7 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

In other news, I must say that I've been quite enjoying myself in my hard NG+ run. Maybe I'm just bad, but it's been REALLY tough. Chapters 1 and 7 were hellish. I'm still finding ways to put the entire cast to use where I can, though. I love them all too much.

I'd like to take a moment to appreciate the NG+ mock battles. Super challenging, but so good. Beating No Soldier Left Behind by routing the enemy was the most difficult thing I've done in the game, but also some of the most fun I've had with it. The game has managed to stay fresh even though I jumped straight to NG+. I don't know if I'll do all four routes, but I can see myself finishing this second one.

It whacks people over the head with a telescope! How awesome is that!?

I thought chapter 1 in Hard NG+ was really poorly tuned, but then the difficulty curve afterward immediately made more sense in tandem with the new mock battles. The game has more than enough varied fights with different approaches I'd say. So many tricks, so many ideas put to use. Intensely creative game, probably the most delightful mechanical thing out of SE since SaGa Scarlet Grace.

That it also has a cast with some great character writing and a rather thrilling set of plotlines to boot is a cherry on top. The genre rarely gets games this consistently good all around.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Neoleo21

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, Sasori said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I would't base too much of your descisions on getting the golden ending on your first route. Its designed in such a way that you want to have a lot of characters leveled and recruited, which works best in new game plus.

But I have to say I never quite had that trouble with the voting system. Occasionally a character or two didn't pick my side, but there always seemed to be a way to get the majority on board. Then again I did't go aesfrot where you are so maybe that one is a bit more tricky. I do agree that the points shouldn't have mattered in descision making though.

Spoiler

Even without the golden ending, I still would've gone for the "transport the salt" option as every storytelling/video game instinct told me that the "report the salt" option is the seemingly good option that backfires.

I see. Interesting. I expected that there would be choices that would be harder to make, but I figured that they'd be the kinds where you have to find the right info beforehand to sway the majority towards them. Thanks for agreeing that points shouldn't really matter for the persuasion.

 

By the way, in chapter nine, did anyone else try to pick "transport the salt"? How hard did you find it to persuade people to that choice? I'm genuinely curious.

 

EDIT: I just completed the version of chapter 10 that happens if the player chose to transport the salt in chapter 9. Mercifully, it was much easier to persuade everyone in this chapter to go with the choice I wanted; namely:

Spoiler

Reveal Roland's identity to Dragan's Uncle to help convince him that you're telling the truth about how Dragan died.

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by vanguard333

[Saint Rubenio]

11 hours ago, Neoleo21 said:

I thought chapter 1 in Hard NG+ was really poorly tuned

This is true. I had to cheese is pretty hard just to beat it. I have no idea how you're supposed to do it on hard without bugging out Trish's AI.

11 hours ago, Neoleo21 said:

but then the difficulty curve afterward immediately made more sense in tandem with the new mock battles. The game has more than enough varied fights with different approaches I'd say. So many tricks, so many ideas put to use. Intensely creative game, probably the most delightful mechanical thing out of SE since SaGa Scarlet Grace.

That it also has a cast with some great character writing and a rather thrilling set of plotlines to boot is a cherry on top. The genre rarely gets games this consistently good all around.

I agree with this. Quite the awesome game, right here.

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, in chapter nine, did anyone else try to pick "transport the salt"? How hard did you find it to persuade people to that choice? I'm genuinely curious.

I did. In fact, I spent my entire first run going for the most obviously evil options, just to see how the game would react. Of course, this meant my utility and liberty were consistently quite high (surprisingly enough, liberty more so - to the point where I managed to get Giovanna near the end of my first run, no NG+ required), so I always got the vote to go my way on the first try. I'll admit I often I had to rely on the Anna clutch, though. Closest call was chapter 8 part 2, which ended on a tie. Thankfully I was given the choice to break the tie myself.

[Etrurian emperor]

I never had much trouble convincing my party members. In my first playthrough there wasn't a single instance the scales decreed anything other than I wanted and new game plus kinda trivializes the scales mechanics. 

That's probably my main complaint about the game. That I never felt I needed to work hard to get my preferred outcomes. The team is always in a draw and there's always at least one undecided member so its very easy to just convince one person and win the vote.

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I did. In fact, I spent my entire first run going for the most obviously evil options, just to see how the game would react. Of course, this meant my utility and liberty were consistently quite high (surprisingly enough, liberty more so - to the point where I managed to get Giovanna near the end of my first run, no NG+ required), so I always got the vote to go my way on the first try. I'll admit I often I had to rely on the Anna clutch, though. Closest call was chapter 8 part 2, which ended on a tie. Thankfully I was given the choice to break the tie myself.

I see. For me, it's my morality and liberty stats are probably my two highest stats. I had to rely on Anna for the vote in chapter 9 as well, but she would always side against me every time I tried the chapter 9 vote until I narrowly managed to farm enough utility points.

Chapter 8 was a close call for me as well, though largely because of my own indecisiveness for that one (I ultimately chose to reject that noble's offer since it was an obvious trap).

 

20 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I never had much trouble convincing my party members. In my first playthrough there wasn't a single instance the scales decreed anything other than I wanted and new game plus kinda trivializes the scales mechanics. 

That's probably my main complaint about the game. That I never felt I needed to work hard to get my preferred outcomes. The team is always in a draw and there's always at least one undecided member so its very easy to just convince one person and win the vote.

I see. Out of curiosity, what did you choose to do in chapter 9?

[Etrurian emperor]

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. Out of curiosity, what did you choose to do in chapter 9?

I set out to expose Sorsley. I went with the ''give up Roland route'' where Sorsley invades Wolfford after which Exharme gives both your castle back, and gives daddy medicine in exchange for help exposing Sorsley. As such I didn't think it made much sense narratively to smuggle salt. I also think its just the more interesting scenario.

In my second playthrough I did peddle the salt since that's what you need to do for the golden ending. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Etrurian emperor

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I set out to expose Sorsley. I went with the ''give up Roland route'' where Sorsley invades Wolfford and where Exharme gives daddy medicine and gives you your castle back in exchange for help exposing Sorsley. As such I didn't think it made much sense narratively to smuggle salt. I also think its just the more interesting scenario.

In my second playthrough I did peddle the salt since that's what you need to do for the golden ending. 

I see. For me, one of my reasons for choosing to smuggle the salt (besides accidentally knowing it's required for the golden ending) was that every storytelling instinct in me was screaming, "trying to expose the salt will go wrong"; the same storytelling instincts that told me Sean Bean's character in season 1 of Game of Thrones was going to die. Even if I didn't know about the golden ending, I probably would've chosen to smuggle the salt for that reason.

[Etrurian emperor]

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. For me, one of my reasons for choosing to smuggle the salt (besides accidentally knowing it's required for the golden ending) was that every storytelling instinct in me was screaming, "trying to expose the salt will go wrong"; the same storytelling instincts that told me Sean Bean's character in season 1 of Game of Thrones was going to die. Even if I didn't know about the golden ending, I probably would've chosen to smuggle the salt for that reason.

I might have thought the same if my route didn't give me the pretty explicit backing of Exarme who always seemed destined to win that particular power struggle. 

The salt smuggling option does give you scenes with Svarog who seems among the best characters but who in my first route rarely appeared due to the choices I took.

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I might have thought the same if my route didn't give me the pretty explicit backing of Exarme who always seemed destined to win that particular power struggle. 

The salt smuggling option does give you scenes with Svarog who seems among the best characters but who in my first route rarely appeared due to the choices I took.

I see. That makes sense.

Yeah; Svarog is definitely an interesting character.

Funny enough, when I played the demo, I decided to do both of the choices in chapter 3 and then pick one of the save files for playing the full game. I ultimately chose the save file where I went to Hyzante and recruited the ice mage, but I remembered what happened in chapter 3 so I remembered both Svarog being genuinely kind to Frederica and I remembered the law man that becomes the boss of chapter 10, so I spent chapter 10 thinking, "I wonder how the dialogue would differ if I had chosen to use my 'went to Aesfrost in chapter 3' save file?"

[Saint Rubenio]

Svarog was one of the characters I wished was playable the most. The man is a good character, has a badass design and he uses a big warhammer to fight. I mean, how cool is that? I guess Jens uses a hammer too, but it's not the same kind of cool hammer.

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I remembered the law man that becomes the boss of chapter 10, so I spent chapter 10 thinking, "I wonder how the dialogue would differ if I had chosen to use my 'went to Aesfrost in chapter 3' save file?"

Well, if you wish to know...

Spoiler

Nothing much in the main plot, but Rudolph has a short conversation with Sycras if he approaches the constable, which I thought was pretty cool.

 

[vanguard333]

11 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Well, if you wish to know...

  Reveal hidden contents

Nothing much in the main plot, but Rudolph has a short conversation with Sycras if he approaches the constable, which I thought was pretty cool.

 

Ah, I see. Neat that there's dialogue between Rudolph and Sycras. Kind-of disappointing that there isn't much else.

[Etrurian emperor]

As for the best NPC's I think Kamsel was kind of a dark horse winner for me. Despite his ''Fire Emblem bandit'' design he's both very soft spoken and actually kinda nice. He's a good cop who even goes the extra mile to ensure foreign civilians don't suffer too much from the war. As long as you're not a Roselle he's a nice guy.

 

[Saint Rubenio]

I just beat General Avlora's Assault without using the fire traps. It was a bit like the No Soldier Left Behind rout. Extremely long, intense and difficult battle, but man was it fun. Decimal continues to prove it is the most important character in the game, thanks to the huge range on its abilities. I employed his ability that decreases enemy movement to great effect, together with Corentin freezing half the map, Hughette's immobility arrows, Jens's spring traps, Ezana's paralysis bolts and Lionel's many tricks. It all allowed me to keep enemies isolated and deal with a few problems at a time as I slowly retreated to the gates of Castle Wolffort. By the time I got there, I only had a few dumb armor knights left to contend with. I even managed to get use out of Giovanna! Imagine that!

Ah, excuse the rambling. I'm just so happy I managed it. Heck, if anything, it was easier than No Soldier Left Behind!

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

As for the best NPC's I think Kamsel was kind of a dark horse winner for me. Despite his ''Fire Emblem bandit'' design he's both very soft spoken and actually kinda nice. He's a good cop who even goes the extra mile to ensure foreign civilians don't suffer too much from the war. As long as you're not a Roselle he's a nice guy.

I don't think I've ever seen him expressing any particular distaste for the Roselle. He's not jumping to their defense either, of course, but I don't know. The guy's generally surprisingly kind, I can't imagine he's too thrilled about the treatment of the Roselle, even if he keeps it to himself for... really, the same reasons Exharme does.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, though. He could very well act overtly racist in another route and I've just not seen it.

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I just beat General Avlora's Assault without using the fire traps. It was a bit like the No Soldier Left Behind rout. Extremely long, intense and difficult battle, but man was it fun. Decimal continues to prove it is the most important character in the game, thanks to the huge range on its abilities. I employed his ability that decreases enemy movement to great effect, together with Corentin freezing half the map, Hughette's immobility arrows, Jens's spring traps, Ezana's paralysis bolts and Lionel's many tricks. It all allowed me to keep enemies isolated and deal with a few problems at a time as I slowly retreated to the gates of Castle Wolffort. By the time I got there, I only had a few dumb armor knights left to contend with. I even managed to get use out of Giovanna! Imagine that!

I completed that a few days ago without using the fire traps either, though I did so on my first playthrough, rather than I'm guessing new game+?

My strategy was basically to have Serenoa and Erador (and occasionally Benedict) standing on the leftmost stairs tanking damage while having everyone else support them, with both Frederica and Hughette on the roof of the nearby building. It was a slog, but a fun slog. When a bunch of enemy reinforcements appeared on the left side of the map and in range to attack my units at the back, I had Corentin create a wall of ice to temporarily block them until I could get enough of my more fragile units ready to fight them. It was fun.

[Saint Rubenio]

Just now, vanguard333 said:

I completed that a few days ago without using the fire traps either, though I did so on my first playthrough, rather than I'm guessing new game+?

Yeah, I'm on NG+ hard.

Just now, vanguard333 said:

My strategy was basically to have Serenoa and Erador (and occasionally Benedict) standing on the leftmost stairs tanking damage while having everyone else support them, with both Frederica and Hughette on the roof of the nearby building. It was a slog, but a fun slog. When a bunch of enemy reinforcements appeared on the left side of the map and in range to attack my units at the back, I had Corentin create a wall of ice to temporarily block them until I could get enough of my more fragile units ready to fight them. It was fun.

That's such a perfect way to describe it, yes. Took me 50 minutes, but every single minute was super fun.

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I don't think I've ever seen him expressing any particular distaste for the Roselle. He's not jumping to their defense either, of course, but I don't know. The guy's generally surprisingly kind, I can't imagine he's too thrilled about the treatment of the Roselle, even if he keeps it to himself for... really, the same reasons Exharme does.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, though. He could very well act overtly racist in another route and I've just not seen it.

Kamsel's not overtly cruel to them like some others are but he's very ''the goddess says it so it must be right'' about it. He seems kind of a victim of Hyzante in the sense that he's a good man but a true believer and thus deceived and brought low by their religion.

I think he's actually the only saint who's a real believer rather than a fraud or opportunist. 

[Saint Rubenio]

18 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Kamsel's not overtly cruel to them like some others are but he's very ''the goddess says it so it must be right'' about it. He seems kind of a victim of Hyzante in the sense that he's a good man but a true believer and thus deceived and brought low by their religion.

I think he's actually the only saint who's a real believer rather than a fraud or opportunist. 

Ah, I understand... Yes, that'd make him another victim of Hyzante's brainwashing, higher up or not. Shame.

[vanguard333]

Speaking of Hyzante, I just went through chapter 12 after choosing

Spoiler

to protect the Rosellians in chapter 11.

I must say, it was weird going through a chapter that had neither a decision nor a battle; just cutscenes and an exploration phase. Don't get me wrong; it came right after a somewhat grueling battle in chapter 11, but still; an entire chapter without a battle is rather bizarre; why not just make it part of a chapter then?

So, I have to ask out of curiosity, is there a battle in chapter 12 if, instead of what I chose, the player chooses

Spoiler

To hand over the Rosellians?

 

Also, it's kind-of funny that the big reveal in this chapter is that

Spoiler

Salt can be found outside of the Source in the form of underground salt crystals. I guess I just find it funny because it strikes me as rather strange that, after all the mining that Glenbrook and Aesfrost have presumably done for decades if not centuries to obtain iron and other metals, they didn't find salt until Dragan's mine? I'll admit I'm not a mining expert, but that strikes me as a bit implausible.

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by vanguard333

[Dark Holy Elf]

24 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Also, it's kind-of funny that the big reveal in this chapter is that

 

It's more reasonable than you think.

Spoiler

Salt is not distributed randomly in our world, either - see where we get salt from... at a quick glance there are several large countries like Algeria and Kazakhstan that have almost none. I believe, though I'm not an expert on the subject, that most salt deposits are found at the sites of former ocean bed / salt lakes. e.g. much of North America was once underwater.

So with that in mind, it's very reasonable that Glenbrook + Aesfrost might have very little natural salt... and thus that them discovering a new, significant source of it would be a big deal. And since the Grand Norzelian Mines are implied to be deeper than any others in the area, it's reasonable that they'd tap into a stratum that previous mines had not reached.

For myself, I finished my first run a few days ago. Very enjoyable game! Some gameplay notes:

Spoiler

I played on Hard until I walled against the bridge fight against Erika and Thalas in Chapter 13... from what I understand this fight is considered unusually difficult; it certainly was for me. Even setting the game down to Normal it still showed teeth. After that I mostly cruised the rest of way.

One odd thing is that I felt like bosses stopped scaling up later in the game? The final boss of Benedict's path had barely 100 more HP than freaking Silvio Telliore in Chapter 11, for crying out loud. Obviously the difficulty mode switch made this even more stark (Hard vs. Normal changes how much damage you deal, while leaving raw enemy stats untouched), but it's an odd choice.

 

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's more reasonable than you think.

  Reveal hidden contents

Salt is not distributed randomly in our world, either - see where we get salt from... at a quick glance there are several large countries like Algeria and Kazakhstan that have almost none. I believe, though I'm not an expert on the subject, that most salt deposits are found at the sites of former ocean bed / salt lakes. e.g. much of North America was once underwater.

So with that in mind, it's very reasonable that Glenbrook + Aesfrost might have very little natural salt... and thus that them discovering a new, significant source of it would be a big deal. And since the Grand Norzelian Mines are implied to be deeper than any others in the area, it's reasonable that they'd tap into a stratum that previous mines had not reached.

 

Ah; fair enough. I suppose it is fairly reasonable then.

[Alastor15243]

One of my biggest voice acting complaints is that Benedict never, ever, EVER emotes, even when his lines are paired with pounding fists and spiky text boxes.

[Etrurian emperor]

I completed my second playthrough today and it was the golden route. As I figured it was the least interesting of the bunch by virtue of being the golden ending. It all feels a bit too clean. All in all its just a combination of the Benedict and Frederica route without any of the drawbacks that makes the others more interesting. 

Spoiler

 

-Roland becoming king doesn't really strike me as a golden ending. He's not particularly fit to rule and doesn't want the throne either. That he sees the error of his ways and abandons his stupid Hyzante plan is good and all, but Cordelia's probably far better suited to rule than he is. 

-I like Svarog but I really think making him the new Archduke wasn't an interesting choice. Gustadolph suddenly going ''lol no!'' when offered an alliance to achieve his goal of toppling Hyzante felt out of character and mostly there to make the ending more golden by virtue of the player not needing to dirty their hands by allying with Gustadolph. It felt a bit like pandering to the player by giving them both their Aestfrost alliance while also allowing Roland to avenge himself on Gustadolph. 

-Idore's a fine enough villain. Since he's the pope its not at all surprising that he's evil but he feels less like a typical evil pope and more like a political leader who just happens to be the pope. He's perfectly able to discuss politics without being a zealot about it. 

 -With Lyla they took the ''less is more approach'' where they trusted the player to figure out she's Quahog's mom without directly spelling it out to the player. That's fine enough but I think them having an actual scene together would have been nice. I also think that they perhaps needed to give an explanation as to why she was Idore's right hand to begin with. Does her service to him predate Quahog or did she chain herself to Idore just to protect him?