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What would be your ideal Avatar system for a new FE game?


Faellin
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Assuming the next main line entry has one. What would your ideal way of implementing them be, in terms of gameplay, unit feel, and character design, and plot relavence?

For me. This is how I feel a proper avatar should be done in this series.

-Story: Very minimal direct impact on the main story. Maybe shows up for a few scenes when called for. But doesn't actually take anything away from it. Or any drastic changes by them existing. Just stuff like the main lord occasionally asking for their input on something in a situation they would know about. Like "how best to proceed in this area" since said avatar character's main village could be in that general area and they'd be familar with things.

-Gameplay: Something close to Kris. Just at the start of a save file. You pick their base class. Get some vague questions that modify base stats and growths slightly. Combined with a more fleshed out class system at the core of the game in terms of class options. Stuff like branching promotions and more unique class types in general. Don't give them some broken unique class like Robin or Corrin. But have them choose from the regular ones available in said game. Basically making them feel like just a normal unit, just one you can customize.

-Character: Ties in with the Story point I mentioned. But have them basically be the star of completely optional side chapters. Ones that don't directly affect the main story in any form. Basically giving them their own time to shine outside of the main story. And of course giving them proper support conversations with the rest of the cast to make them feel like a natural part of the army.

And lastly. Keep them out of remakes. I'm fine with them in brand new entries if done well and don't warp the entire game around their existence.

Edited by Faellin
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I'm pretty antithetical to you, sadly.

 

I'm more of the Robin-for-the-first-two-thirds-of-Awakening category. 

I like having an Avatar that's integral to viewing the story and more than just a background character. If they're going to be in the story, then they should actually be in the story. That being said, I don't like them being the Lord of the game, as was the case with Corrin.* I like how Robin was Chrom's avatar and friend, but never overshadowed Chrom or Lucina's journey. They had a connection with every character, but characters' arcs, personalities, or improvement wasn't depended on that character. (That being said, for Byleth it worked, as they are a teacher, and teachers do have to be therapists to their students at times, and safe-spaces for their students always.)

In terms of gameplay, Robin is still the best example. If I have an Avatar, then I want to be able to customize what class and boons as well. I didn't like how bulky Byleth was when I tried a Magic build, or how paradoxical Corrin was either. And don't get me started on Kana! That being said, I think Corrin and Fates by proxy had the best class customization aspect. Let players choose what their Secondary Class will be, and then find creative ways for them to gain other classes. However, THIS ALSO MUST BE MATCHED AMONGST GENDERS. I'm still annoyed at how the only ways for me to get Oni Savage as M!Corrin was to either choose it for a Secondary Class and forego something like Wyvern Rider (which is then locked behind marriage on Birthright) or marry Rinkah, who is NOT someone I'd choose in most circumstances** and is only available in Birthright and Revelation.***

Characterization should probably depend on the game itself, but I'm fine with Avatars having preset characterization, or at least preset quirks. Would I love a Mass Effect style Avatar, whose entire identity and personality you get to build? ABSOLUTELY! But it also took THREE games to fully get that, with quirks and charms appearing along the way, and three games of an Avatar as the main character. I can't imagine that being a popular decision here...

 

Lastly, Avatars in Remakes...I think it depends on the game, TBH. I would be fine with an Avatar appearing in a Genealogy or Elibe Duology remake. (Or at least a beefed up role for Mark in 7, and then Mark's child in 6.) Being completely honest, part of me prefers it. I think Mark is perfectly situated in FE 7 for a larger role overall that doesn't disrupt the story. In FE 4, I think there are characters that could serve the same role, but overall I don't think an Avatar would damage anything important: You still can't marry Sigurd, Deirdre, Arvis, Quan, or Ethlyn. Your character would still probably be replaced by a child unit in the second half of the game.**** Sigurd and Seliph would still be the MCs of the story. So yeah, I'm not against it. Granted, I'm also a fan of the controversial opinion of adding more OC women into an FE 4 remake so that you can have Substitute Characters be playable in the main game, as I find the idea of Substitute Characters existing solely as such to be outdated. 

In an FE 9/10 Remake...probably not. I can't imagine how an Avatar would cleanly fit into Greil's Mercenaries without looking like a self-insert. Oh I'm sure there's a way, but I just haven't thought of a nice clean way yet.***** FE 10 is probably more doable, assuming you just add an extra character to the Dawn Brigade or something like that.***** Still, Radiant Dawn has so many underutilized characters that I'd rather they spend time beefing those characters and roles up than introducing another character. 

 

Overall, I'm definitely not against Avatars, as I've liked most of them. Fire Emblem doesn't really need them for the games to be great; on the flip side, having them doesn't mean that the game is inherently bad either. The Avatar, like every other trope, is nothing more than a tool. Use it well and your story will flourish. The problem is that what constitutes as "well" depends on the individual. 

 

*To me, Corrin's problem is less that they were an Avatar and more that they were the Avatar, Lord, and Manakete all in one. Had they been two of the three, I think the character would have been fine. All three had Corrin stumble under the weight of the character. 

**Don't get me wrong, I really like her design! I just don't like her as a unit. 

***And yes, if I'm playing Fates, I'm playing Revelation; but still, I'd like some flexibility here too, without having to beat the entire game to gain it.

****Or you could pull a Finn/Oifey, and have the Avatar survive along with his/her child. The story stays the same either way, and cool things can be done with characterization in both cases. Depending on how messed up you want to make the game, maybe male Avatars die while female Avatars live and can remarry a second gen unit? ...weirder things have happened in FE games after all...

*****I'd honestly prefer that IF an Avatar was going to be in a Tellius duology, then I'd prefer to have the choice of choosing the species of character. Are you a Beorc? From there, you get to choose the starting class and boon/bane. Are you a Laguz? Then you get to choose which tribe you originally came from. The problem with this is that it introduces the Laguz well before they should be introduced in the game. Sure, you could have Laguz avatars join later on...but then that would make the more like a regular character and less like an Avatar. This doesn't matter as much in RD, but it is something to keep in mind for PoR. Ironically, I think an Avatar like Kris would actually work well in PoR - a new recruit that becomes good friends/best friends with the main lord of the game? Yeah, that could work. 

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I know this is a bit of a non-answer, but I would much rather if they stopped making avatar characters in FE games. In a weird sort of way, it completely breaks the feeling of immersion in the story for me. When I'm reading a fantasy story, I like hearing about the heroic tales of other people and putting myself into the equation through a self-insert avatar just doesn't cut it for me. If feels like it defeats the purpose.

Though if I had to play along, I'd pretty much agree with all 4 of your points. A character that's Kris-like in terms of gameplay, but that story-wise doesn't feel intrusive and doesn't have that much impact in the main plot sounds great. And yes, for the love of god keep them out of remakes. I would find the idea of an avatar getting shoehorned into the Tellius saga utterly revolting (to give an example).

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I want the avatar to be the central figure of the whole story, in both new games and remakes.

...

Okay, that's not serious, but since the "None" response was inevitable, I figured I might as well provide the opposite.

That said, my answer is much closer to that than "none" as I actually do like having an avatar. For all I criticize Three Houses, I like Byleth a lot and think that is a good blueprint for how to do an avatar; a central character, but not always the leading one, with dialogue choices. I would also like to see customization options from previous games make a return, though I do understand the issue with appearance customization and prerendered cutscenes, and if it comes down to it I'd prefer to see cutscenes with freedom to show what they need even if it means no appearance customization.

I also don't mind having an avatar in remakes, though it's fine if they're left out there. Genealogy and Radiant Dawn (and PoR by extension) would be difficult to include avatars in, but really no reason not to have one in the others.

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8 hours ago, Florete said:

I want the avatar to be the central figure of the whole story, in both new games and remakes.

...

Okay, that's not serious, but since the "None" response was inevitable, I figured I might as well provide the opposite.

And I want to make it clear that my answer is serious. 

In a game series that is heavily story & character driven, screw the worthless avatar character. If IS was to remake a game that had an avatar character, my ideal remake would to replace the avatar character with an actual character with pre-establish traits, behaviors, and history. [Note: This means nothing about reducing the overall customization of my army composition or characters] 

I'm in general in favor of not having any kind of avatar character, and considering FE's history and writing around the avatar, I definitely don't want any of it. It's not that I just don't like the avatar character, it's usually also because of how they cause other character to behave. I like Edelgard and Lyn overall, but one thing that annoys me about those characters is how much they obsessive over the avatar character. They just happen to have other traits that I can pay attention to ignore that aspect.

At no point when playing the Sacred Stones, Path or Radiance, or Echoes do I think about wanting an avatar character. Meanwhile, games like Three Houses, New Mystery of the Emblem and Conquest, I get so annoyed by the avatar and just want the avatar gone so the story can actual focus on the actual interesting characters, in additional, so those actual characters can focus on other stuff that isn't about the stupid/bland avatar.

I would rather play Three Houses as Edelgard and be the leader she is supposed to be, encouraging all the students to do well in school, and taking charge of her goals regardless of the damage it will cause and how misguided it maybe, than the mute Belyethe who is just there.

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2 hours ago, Clear World said:

And I want to make it clear that my answer is serious. 

In a game series that is heavily story & character driven, screw the worthless avatar character. If IS was to remake a game that had an avatar character, my ideal remake would to replace the avatar character with an actual character with pre-establish traits, behaviors, and history. [Note: This means nothing about reducing the overall customization of my army composition or characters] 

I'm in general in favor of not having any kind of avatar character, and considering FE's history and writing around the avatar, I definitely don't want any of it. It's not that I just don't like the avatar character, it's usually also because of how they cause other character to behave. I like Edelgard and Lyn overall, but one thing that annoys me about those characters is how much they obsessive over the avatar character. They just happen to have other traits that I can pay attention to ignore that aspect.

At no point when playing the Sacred Stones, Path or Radiance, or Echoes do I think about wanting an avatar character. Meanwhile, games like Three Houses, New Mystery of the Emblem and Conquest, I get so annoyed by the avatar and just want the avatar gone so the story can actual focus on the actual interesting characters, in additional, so those actual characters can focus on other stuff that isn't about the stupid/bland avatar.

I would rather play Three Houses as Edelgard and be the leader she is supposed to be, encouraging all the students to do well in school, and taking charge of her goals regardless of the damage it will cause and how misguided it maybe, than the mute Belyethe who is just there.

Uh huh...congratulations? For whatever it's worth, that statement of mine wasn't a direct response to you. I knew upon seeing the title that people would come in and say "None." You just happened to be the first one. It doesn't take being in FE fandom very long to see this coming. You didn't have to go on this huge rant because of a little joke I made.

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Story: I'd like the Avatar to not be involved in the story. Don't make him a main character and don't make him a strategist. Each of those roles just detracts from the real main character. The worst case scenario is Kris pretty much running the show half the time but letting Marth take all the credit for that. I think perhaps them being a bodyguard is the best way to go. It allows them to be present in key events, but leaves all the decisions to the lord. 

Character: They should keep in mind that its an Avatar character so they can't create a disconnect between the avatar and the player they're supposed to represent. This means they can't create an Avatar like Corrin because he's got such a pronounced personality that he isn't one. But having a complete mute like Byleth means that no conversation with the Avatar can ever be interesting so that's not ideal either. For their personality the Avatar needs a middle ground. They can deliberately create an understated and mellow character like Robin. Someone with enough personality, to be able to talk with people, but without him having a defined personality the player can't imprint on. Another option is to let you chose the personality. Have the game ask in advance whether you want a wuss like Corrin, a more aggressive figure like Hector or something in between.

 

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In terms of story, I want the avatar to be like Rook from Xenoblade Chronicles X: a nobody and a witness to the events of the story with the main lord being the protagonist. At most in terms of story involvement, I would want them to be a low-ranking tactician, and that's it.

In terms of appearance customization, again, I would want it to be like Rook from Xenoblade X, with an extremely wide range of options. No more just having a small selection of faces and hair colours/styles.

In terms of class customization, I want them to be like Kris in that the player selects their starting class. I don't like the avatar characters having unique classes.

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I would also prefer there not to be one, but one I wouldn't mind as much would be an avatar with no involvement in the story/characters, and that you could choose a class line and make stat adjustments. Basically like a customisable generic unit.

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Story: Ideally I would want them to have next-to-no involvment. Either just have them be generic nobody who joins the army or give them a role that keeps them out of influencing major plot events. The Lord can talk to them, but the plot should be able to move on without the avatar present.

Gameplay: Pick their class, boon and bane. Appearance customisation would also be ideal.

Character: Something more understated so as to avoid player and avatar ideals clashing as much as possible

I would them not add an avatar to a remake, expect for an expanded Mark in FE7 maybe. But even then, you could easily remove them from said remake and I wouldn`t lose any sleep over it.

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I'm gonna say that FE:Heroes had the best implementation of the avatar/Summoner.

story-wise, it's ... a gacha game ... it's the one place to toss the believability book out the window and be as guilty-pleasure happy about creating your self insert in a world where your husbandu/waifu exists as you want to be. folks can pretend the Summoner only exists in the story mode if they want it, but then there's events like, shit, the heroic journey where it's tailored-made to be as indulgent as can be.

character design is actually nicely done because there's the detailed art versions for those who like 'em, and likewise the "blank slate" version for those who don't.  To the latter point, you can get across a ton of personality through the weapon, accessories, and skills even with the base art.  (edgy blue raventome vs lance paladin-esque player-phase machine).

Otherwise, nah, not a fan of avatars in the series at all, even FE7 "Mark".

if tellius remake gets an avatar imma kill it with fire.

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On 10/1/2021 at 5:23 AM, kradeelav said:

I'm gonna say that FE:Heroes had the best implementation of the avatar/Summoner.

story-wise, it's ... a gacha game ... it's the one place to toss the believability book out the window and be as guilty-pleasure happy about creating your self insert in a world where your husbandu/waifu exists as you want to be. folks can pretend the Summoner only exists in the story mode if they want it, but then there's events like, shit, the heroic journey where it's tailored-made to be as indulgent as can be.

character design is actually nicely done because there's the detailed art versions for those who like 'em, and likewise the "blank slate" version for those who don't.  To the latter point, you can get across a ton of personality through the weapon, accessories, and skills even with the base art.  (edgy blue raventome vs lance paladin-esque player-phase machine).

Otherwise, nah, not a fan of avatars in the series at all, even FE7 "Mark".

if tellius remake gets an avatar imma kill it with fire.

You're Ike's Adopted Step-Sibling but you only find out you're adopted if you S-Rank him.

Also you can wield Ragnell and Alondite together dual-wield like that one Heroes character.

Even in FE:H I do find it annoying with characters like Faye, who pretty much betray how they should act for the sake of adding praise to the player. (Granted, I don't have any standards for FE:H writing so it bothers me less than mainline titles but it's still a roll of the eyes at least.)

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The only avatar I particularly want to see is one for a Genealogy remake, and that's almost entirely slfor the purpose of breeding shenanigans. And just in general part 1 of Genealogy focuses around Signed enough that it wouldn't be east to have an avatar fuck up the story, while part 2 is flat enough that an avatar would actually be a welcome addition to stop it being the Lewyn Selioh show.

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19 hours ago, Samz707 said:

You're Ike's Adopted Step-Sibling but you only find out you're adopted if you S-Rank him.

Also you can wield Ragnell and Alondite together dual-wield like that one Heroes character.

Even in FE:H I do find it annoying with characters like Faye, who pretty much betray how they should act for the sake of adding praise to the player. (Granted, I don't have any standards for FE:H writing so it bothers me less than mainline titles but it's still a roll of the eyes at least.)

oh god my eyes are bleeding at that first idea, thanks a lot /s  :D

i will say Altina was a canon RD character (her dual-wielding Ragnell/Alondite was in a RD cutscene art) so that bothers me a lot less given she's more of a mythical character.  But yeah, something like that would be way too much for somebody in the player's army unless if it was the final endgame chapter or two where shit gets serious.

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Ideally, I'd prefer Fire Emblem to forego avatars completely as I think they add next to nothing of substance to the games they're included in; I'd rather the actual main character(s) get all the focus with their role in the story and the way they're written.

But if one is included in the next game, I'd say one with non-existent plot relevance and the inability to support anyone is ideal. Literally just a personal unit you can customize to your liking for the heck of it, in both class/stats and physical appearance.

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I have a suggestion:

Either (A) a fully customizable avatar (like Pathfinder or Mass Effect etc)or (B) no avatar at all.

Previous Fire Emblem games only limit us to selection in gender, birthday or a random stat. However, if we were to go with (A), 

Story
The avatar should be more of a strategist, rather than a main lord. He/She assists the main lord in the objectives, rather than be a main player in the series. The story can be told through his/her eyes, rather than the main lord's.

As long as the story is good, I also do not mind divergent paths depending whether you are lawful good or chaotic good. (It might be too risky to be an evil avatar.)

Gameplay
The avatar should not be too powerful, but be similar to Leif in Thracia 776 -- buffing nearby allies. This keeps the avatar in a supportive role, rather than the one driving the party.

I would also like if the game allows us to customise our character more. Perhaps we can choose our starting class (instead of being just another sword-user), weapon specialty and even the voices.

Character
Hopefully the game lets the avatar make meaningful choices (other than choosing who to romance). Similar to Knights of the Old Republic or the upcoming Triangle Strategy, let us make decisions that will cause our party members to support or oppose us based on their relationship with the avatar or the main lord. 

Thus when we inevitable clash with our former party, they would be equally levelled up (making them viable to be recruited again).

That's my take.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I wouldn't mind if we went back to the third-person narrative with Lords with personality. At the same time, I didn't have a problem with Byleth either. I didn't see it any different from when I was playing as Yu or Minako from Persona 3-4, as they're also complete self-inserts too. If anything, I liked that I myself had a sense of agency and had the sense that I actually made some difficult choices in who I allied with, and stuck with that choice, thanks to things being genuinely greyer.

This is unlike a certain someone else from a previous entry sides with a country that is Saturday-Cartoon levels of obviously evil and acts all spineless to the obviously evil king, yet constantly whinges about it until the last two chapters.

Edited by henrymidfields
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no avatar at all... or at least an avatar thats not "Lead on the nose" by the plot generally.

Basically an avatar thats not a "yes-man" in the whole conflict if he/she/they are in the center of conflict/ have important role to it. And yes i consider byleth too in that "yes-man" category since 90% of dialogue choice doesnt change anything except a few lines. the strength of the avatar should be higher than average, but should still surpass-able by some high-tier unit. rather than giving them absurd power, give them more flexibility.

the character customization should be plentiful, but i never trust a JRPG or anime-like artstyle to have good customization let alone a nintendo game with its lacking hardware. give me a several preset that can be tweaked and can be equipped with accesories mid-game, then that is passable i guess? i wont be satisfied like creating a MMORPG char anyway

NO avatar worship. or even stealing Lord character love interest either. period

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I have two conceptual ideas for handling an avatar character.

The first is as a rank-and-file character who joins in the first chapter with some ties to the protagonist. You can customize them and have them start as an infantry with any weapon type of your choosing, but they are not given any special treatment (spoiled in bases/growths, free training, Paragon lite, etc). If they die in the gameplay it's not the end of the world, they'll either retreat or you can go on without them entirely.

The second is to make them your tactician who can join later into the game as an Est character. You'll probably get a bit of special treatment with this option but it comes at the cost of joining late and underleveled. If they die they'll probably retreat and revert to being a full-time tactician.

Either way, one of your options is to pick a basic personality type. This affects your dialogue/dialogue options and part of your support pool; no more one character to support them all nonsense. Most if not all characters should be supportable between the full spectrum of personalities. I don't care for marriage but keep it on the backburner and give both genders equal treatment if the lord(s) is an option, unlike a certain game.

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Playable Mark would be the sweetspot for me. Just grab Mark and make them playable. Minimal impact on the story while still being acknowledged and respected by other characters but not worshipping the ground they walk on.

I honestly prefer supports like those that Byleth had over Robin/Corrin. Maybe elaborate on those to make it like more like hangouts in Genshin where different dialogue choices lead to different outcomes. Of course, the number of outcome would have to be trimmed down since making 5 different outcomes for all characters would be a ton of work for a large cast Fire Emblem typically has.

Their appearance would be customizable like Corrin/Robin with an option for "obscured" that keeps their face covered by like a hood or whatever. Maybe even options for covering it up with a helm or a mask or with their hair. Also, options for skin color. Seriously, three avatar creators and none have that option.

The classes is a bit trickier to handle because it works differently in every game but I'm going act as if they work like FE7 (1 base class + 1 promoted class. No reclassing or branching promotions) for no reason other than mentioning Mark got me in an FE7 mood.

You get the choice of 1 weapon and either infantry or armored movement for your base class options. After confirming your base class options you will now be able to choose what you're promotion will be like. Now the option for gaining a mount will be available and you can pick 1 extra weapon to wield for a total of 2 weapons.

Weapons can be anything as long as it's not impossible due to the lore. For example, if it's like Awakening where there's a character who is the last of their kind (Panne) then beast stones (or whatever they happen to use in this hypothetical game) will not be available, but dragons, although rare, are not one of a kind, so dragon stones are fair game.

Any conflict between chosen weapons and mount will be treated as if they have no mount but will still be able to move the same amount of spaces as if they did. For example, choosing dragon stone and cavalry will make it so that they have no horse, and therefore no horse weaknesses, but will still able to move the same amount of spaces as other cavalry units and they still retain their dragon weaknesses. Flying movement types will always retain their flying weaknesses despite not using a Pegasus/Wyvern but will not retain their secondary weaknesses.

Completing the game at least once will unlock the option for mounts and 2 weapons as part of the base class and promoted classes will now be able to wield up to 3 weapons. Lore-unfriendly weapons will also be available to use now.

Stats will be handled using bonus points. You will be shown the base max stats of the avatar, which are subpar across the board, and will use your bonus points to increase them to acceptable levels. You will be limited to how many bonus points you can use on any one stat to prevent players from dumping everything to just one or two stats. The amount of bonus points you get is dependent on chosen movement type. Presets and a randomize option will also be available to prevent overwhelming players.

Growth rates are determined by movement type and using the usual boon and bane system. Nothing too in-depth here, cause I fear this would break the game more than having something like a max stat of 99 atk. After all, you wouldn't be able to actually use that if growth rates don't allow it.

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-Story: Mostly like Mark from FE7, a Tactician or at most a soldier/mercenary who's also trained in Tactics, they aren't super important to the plot and are more of a side-character in the story.

They aren't the big chosen one to defeat the villains but they are the ones giving the orders when it comes to battle.

-Gameplay:  Maybe like Kris where you can pick your class? I've not played his game yet but the player should be able to pick any class they want with the exception of maybe Dancer. (And that could always be new game plus.), no unique fancy weapons since those end up discouraging the player from not using that weapon type. (Such as 3H, where the game really wants Byleth to use Swords.)

Since we could always use good choices, maybe we essentially get the choices between several maps at a time, like for instance, we need to rescue someone who's been captured recently (such as a Prince for instance) but we get the option to do a side-map of hunting down some bandits, we could maybe get a recruit out of it (Some Villager who can fight, similar to Rebecca) but then when we actually arrive to rescue that person, the squadron of troops who were going to transport them away have shown up, so the map of actually rescuing them gets harder because you have harder and more well-trained enemies to deal with.

However if you gun straight to them, rescuing them is actually very easy since there's alot less forces but that Villager joins later because they're a traveller you stumble across now, because their village actually got wiped out since we didn't help them, perhaps a good few supports/dialogue changes to be alot more bitter and angry due to this, We had a much easier time but we let a village get destroyed due to leaving them to the bandits.

So the choices would be in a single route story with some branches (and maybe effecting the ending) depending on if we make things harder for ourselves by stopping to help with issues but we get the choice to also disregard people in need to make our lives easier, maybe we can even do some awful things in decision moments, like poisoning the enemies water supply before attacking a settlement they own (Like what happened to the Lorca), so you get a much easier map since the enemies had permanent stat-debuffs for that map in exchange for poisoning civilians and probably getting on the wrong side of a few members of your army.

So you'd get choices that effect what maps you get in your playthrough as well as how difficult they are.

-Character: 

Fixed Name: Every Avatar has their name canonized anyway with Heroes anyway, I'd rather the other characters actually use it in-game instead of awkwardly dancing around it.

Appearance customization would be nice but isn't required.

IMO, actual dialogue choices that let us shape our character should matter the most, 3H sometimes did this well, it wasn't great but it's more than Corrin/Robin ever got, so improving on that would be good.

As I suggested on the gameplay section, a decent chunk of the Avatar's character could be dealing with when to be utterly ruthless or trying to be a hero but usually making things harder for themselves in the process.

 

Edited by Samz707
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