What would be your ideal Avatar system for a new FE game?

[Sasori]

I would say something of a combination of Kris and Byleth, but both with some adjustments. Robin was pretty alright, but I don't think he or Corrin work well as Avatars. They are just characters and there is little to make them represent the player.

To start with Kris. The rest of that character can go back into the dumpster, but being able to decide on your own backstory is a good start. Have the choice to be a noble, peasant or mercenary and have that affect how the characters in the story view you. I don't think it has to be a massive thing. A altered support here and there, some optional events or maybe just some slightly different intro cutscenes with other characters.

I'd take the silent protagenist part of Byleth, but expand on it. Byleth might be a silent protagenist, but they never felt more then some boring brick wall. Because there was very little interaction. If I have my own  avatar, then I would want to have actual conversations with the other characters. Be a part of the world. Multiple response options and those options being able to cause other characters to form a opinion of you. It might even end with them not worshipping you. For example if you make something mad in their C support, then you get a different B support based on that. I think dragon age 1 would be a good place to start.

And finally I think there is very little chance that a FE6 remake won't feature a avatar. The ending of Fe7 would make it real easy to slide one back in. So my ideal Fe6 avatar would NOT! steal Roy's moments. I know Mark is a Tactician in FE7, but Roy being able to think quick on his feet is something that sets him apart from the other lords. A 'Kris' scenario would only end up making Roy worse as a character.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sasori

[SSbardock84]

I would mostly prefer them to be non-existent, I don't like how much attention and focus they have gotten. The idea of them doesn't bother me, but the surge of popularity and amount of influence they have on the plot does. In all honesty, I wouldn't even want something as little involved as Blazing Sword. Maybe like a regular story where you have a customizable character but they have zero impact on the plot whatsoever. Idk, there's concepts about custom characters I like, but there are far more things about them that I dislike. Idk why they can't buckle down and just make them an actual character. Like what was so hard about doing that with Byleth? You were already halfway there and you couldn't customize them anyway, aside from gender and name. Just choose a gender, doesn't matter which, and give them more character.

[Etrurian emperor]

Should Mark return for a Binding Blade Remake then I think the best thing they could do is to kill him off. 

At a glance Mark really doesn't belong in Roy's story. The whole point is that Roy goes to battle without a safety net. His father is ill, his advisor is worthless and his uncle figure/national leader dies very early on. Roy's a kid leading an army because Lycia has essentially no one left. But Mark could reinforce this story by introducing him as Roy's safety net and then yanking him away. Have you customize him, have him be a kinda broken unit, have him take some amount of spotlight and then have Bern kill him off. It could both reinforce the theme as well as serve as a very bold narrative step to shock the player. 

[Jotari]

52 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Should Mark return for a Binding Blade Remake then I think the best thing they could do is to kill him off. 

At a glance Mark really doesn't belong in Roy's story. The whole point is that Roy goes to battle without a safety net. His father is ill, his advisor is worthless and his uncle figure/national leader dies very early on. Roy's a kid leading an army because Lycia has essentially no one left. But Mark could reinforce this story by introducing him as Roy's safety net and then yanking him away. Have you customize him, have him be a kinda broken unit, have him take some amount of spotlight and then have Bern kill him off. It could both reinforce the theme as well as serve as a very bold narrative step to shock the player. 

What point in the story could you do that while still maintaining exactly that independent Roy angle?

[Samz707]

7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Should Mark return for a Binding Blade Remake then I think the best thing they could do is to kill him off. 

At a glance Mark really doesn't belong in Roy's story. The whole point is that Roy goes to battle without a safety net. His father is ill, his advisor is worthless and his uncle figure/national leader dies very early on. Roy's a kid leading an army because Lycia has essentially no one left. But Mark could reinforce this story by introducing him as Roy's safety net and then yanking him away. Have you customize him, have him be a kinda broken unit, have him take some amount of spotlight and then have Bern kill him off. It could both reinforce the theme as well as serve as a very bold narrative step to shock the player. 

As a Mark fan.

Yes.

If they ever do joint-remakes, having the option to import your FE7 Remake Data could work here. (Since you'd have your Mark and maybe a few lines referencing supports.)

Granted, my idea was more having him die in the backstory (Such as during the intial Bern invasion of Elibe.) though I did see a fanfic which had him dying in the battle that kills Hector due to meeting and trying to help Hector just before the attack happened. (Which could also work.)

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Samz707

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Samz707 said:

As a Mark fan.

Yes.

Granted, my idea was more having him die in the backstory (Such as during the intial Bern invasion of Elibe.) though I did see a fanfic which had him dying in the battle that kills Hector due to meeting and trying to help Hector just before the attack happened. (Which could also work.)

 

Would kind of take away from Hector's own death too (which is already a bit underwhelming in retrospect).

Edited November 12, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

29 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

though I did see a fanfic which had him dying in the battle that kills Hector due to meeting and trying to help Hector just before the attack happened. (Which could also work.)

Hey I remember that one 😄

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Would kind of take away from Hector's own death too (which is already a bit underwhelming in retrospect).

To be fair, Hector was practically a throw-away character in FE6, dude has practically no screentime.

I'm not sure where to do it, but I do think Mark dying would be cool, I like how FE6's war retroactively has alot more weight and emotions behind it thanks to FE7.

 

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

To be fair, Hector was practically a throw-away character in FE6, dude has practically no screentime.

Kind of? It's weird. Like yes, functionally he was a throw away character who's impact on the narrative was pretty minor. But at the same time he kind of still gets his dues by the story with a lot of references to how big a loss his death is, and they even make him playable in trial mode. It's like, he was a throwaway character, but the told us he wasn't, and then they made a prequel with him that actually meant he wasn't. Leading to less of a throw away character and more a weirdly underfocused death for a major character.

[Metal Flash]

20 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Should Mark return for a Binding Blade Remake then I think the best thing they could do is to kill him off. 

Agreed 100%. Mark dying would be the best thing they could do for them.

In a similar vein, if Lyn has to play a role in a FE6 remake, it should be to die during the Sacean massacare. She can put up a fight, but she should still end up dead. And I am saying this as someone who likes Lyn. What a FE6 remake needs is to expand on the characters exclusive to that game, not try to insert FE7 characters who don`t fit in there. I wouldn`t mind a few cameoes here or there, but only as NPCs. Maybe they could be playable in trial maps, but not in the main game. 

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Metal Flash said:

Agreed 100%. Mark dying would be the best thing they could do for them.

In a similar vein, if Lyn has to play a role in a FE6 remake, it should be to die during the Sacean massacare. She can put up a fight, but she should still end up dead. And I am saying this as someone who likes Lyn. What a FE6 remake needs is to expand on the characters exclusive to that game, not try to insert FE7 characters who don`t fit in there. I wouldn`t mind a few cameoes here or there, but only as NPCs. Maybe they could be playable in trial maps, but not in the main game. 

For Lyn I would have said her popping up at the end as a random Gotoh type unit would be a suitable way to include her, but as it happens, Karel already fits that bill completely. And as a swordmaster no less (you know making Blazing Blade about Karel and not Lyn could have actually been really interesting). Personally I think it's best to leave Binding Blades script alone as far as Blazing Blade characters and content is concerned (though maybe give Eliwood a few more scenes, since he's there already and just does absolutely nothing). The likes of Lyn and Mark's stories are better told as stand alone DLC or Trial Map like content, rather than forcing them into Roy's story. The world would look bigger and more fleshed out if they were Gaidens (in the original sense of the word).

[Metal Flash]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

For Lyn I would have said her popping up at the end as a random Gotoh type unit would be a suitable way to include her, but as it happens, Karel already fits that bill completely. And as a swordmaster no less (you know making Blazing Blade about Karel and not Lyn could have actually been really interesting). Personally I think it's best to leave Binding Blades script alone as far as Blazing Blade characters and content is concerned (though maybe give Eliwood a few more scenes, since he's there already and just does absolutely nothing). The likes of Lyn and Mark's stories are better told as stand alone DLC or Trial Map like content, rather than forcing them into Roy's story. The world would look bigger and more fleshed out if they were Gaidens (in the original sense of the word).

That could also work.

[Use the Falchion]

4 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Agreed 100%. Mark dying would be the best thing they could do for them.

In a similar vein, if Lyn has to play a role in a FE6 remake, it should be to die during the Sacean massacare. She can put up a fight, but she should still end up dead. And I am saying this as someone who likes Lyn. What a FE6 remake needs is to expand on the characters exclusive to that game, not try to insert FE7 characters who don`t fit in there. I wouldn`t mind a few cameoes here or there, but only as NPCs. Maybe they could be playable in trial maps, but not in the main game. 

I'm more in-line with what @Jotari said for Lyn, although my reasoning is a tad different. I think that Lyn joining the party allows for all three Blazing Blade lords to fit into a Binding Blade remake: Hector is the Lord that dies before he can join, and acts as a warning to how serious this event is. Eliwood is the Lord that wants to join, but can't. Lyn then becomes the Lord who wants to join and does. 

As an alternative solution to Mark dying - and as a contrast to Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector above - maybe Mark ends up working for the antagonists and Bern? As a pure "mercenary" type of archetype, we could see our previous Avatar finally become the bad guy, and in a twist of most Avatar-Child relationships in FE, this one could be painted as super antagonistic. Or maybe just loving but still antagonistic, a not uncommon Fire Emblem trope. In FE7, we see Mark wanting to (and in several epilogues, succeeding in) become a famous tactician. I can see a more jaded, cynical version of our Avatar joining Bern because it was the most lucrative option, and how they saw the tides of war rolling in, and wanted to make themselves useful. Or maybe they joined in order to end the war quickly, trying to save their potential child from a prolonged war. And then imagine how that fight would be, if Lyn lived and Mark was with Bern - imagine how heartbreaking that boss dialogue would be for people. For two completely different generations, Mark and Lyn might have been players first Fire Emblem characters* EVER...and to have them face off and try to kill each other at the end of this game...this would be heartbreaking, but if pulled off well...yeah, I want that. (Bonus heartbreak points to those who have shipped Lyn and Mark together for years, and having a combined FE 6/7 remake that allows them to marry and have a child/children...only to have one potentially kill the other at the end of the game. Or maybe they can pull a Radiant Dawn, and if certain conditions are met, Mark can join the army and everyone gets a happy ending.)

Also, I completely disagree with FE6 not inserting FE7 characters. Remakes are rare chances to not only recreate a game matching how fans imagined/viewed it in its ideal state, but also to fix problems with the previous version, be it gameplay mechanics or continuity problems. Ignoring all of the stuff from FE7 just because it was created after and didn't original fit looks like a giant waste of a second chance to me. Why NOT say "hey, we intended these two things to go together, but we didn't nail it perfectly the first time. Let's try to make them fit together more intentionally this time, alright?"**

As for expanding the FE6 characters, I definitely agree with you in that they could use some expansion and more depth. The great thing is, though, that Fire Emblem as a whole has been gaining that expansion of characters with nearly every release since the GBA games. I firmly believe that in an FE6 remake, there will be more than enough room to expand the characters already there while still making room for new characters and/or FE7 characters. 

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

you know making Blazing Blade about Karel and not Lyn could have actually been really interesting

I'm not sure Karel's character would have worked with the standard FE method of recruiting allies, since he was all about killing strong enemies at the time and such. But I can imagine Lyn and Karla's spots being switched. Karla could have been left along on the Sacean plains, lost without her brother or family, until she found Mark and the two find out Karel and Karla's heritage. From there, Karla's arc could be about saving her grandfather and then trying to find a clue of where her brother is, in order to make the rest of her family "whole." When Karel and Karla met, I would like it to go with Karla recognizing she doesn't need her brother anymore, as she has found a new family and an independence birthed by trials and allies; nevertheless, she would like her brother join her. 

Meanwhile, Lyn's arc would have been about finding a purpose to live after the slaughter of her tribe. She would find herself alone and adrift in arenas until she is beaten one day, and someone asks for her help in saving someone else who is not lost. This would ignite something in Lyn, and she would soon find a purpose in saving those who haven't lost everything, not yet. This would culminate in Lyn being the one to bond with Karel, as she would be strong enough to hold her own against him, and she'd be the one to smack some sense about friendship, family, and strength into his head, as the Sword Demon still only sees his sister as something weak (despite joining her cause at this point). 

 

 

 

*Outside of Smash Bros of course.

**Which is hypocritical of me, as I would probably rip the Children Units out of Fates and plant them in a different game, like Three Houses, if given the chance. But again, remakes are second chances, and features roughly implemented the first time can be expanded upon the second time without taking up space for new things. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

I'm more in-line with what @Jotari said for Lyn, although my reasoning is a tad different. I think that Lyn joining the party allows for all three Blazing Blade lords to fit into a Binding Blade remake: Hector is the Lord that dies before he can join, and acts as a warning to how serious this event is. Eliwood is the Lord that wants to join, but can't. Lyn then becomes the Lord who wants to join and does. 

As an alternative solution to Mark dying - and as a contrast to Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector above - maybe Mark ends up working for the antagonists and Bern? As a pure "mercenary" type of archetype, we could see our previous Avatar finally become the bad guy, and in a twist of most Avatar-Child relationships in FE, this one could be painted as super antagonistic. Or maybe just loving but still antagonistic, a not uncommon Fire Emblem trope. In FE7, we see Mark wanting to (and in several epilogues, succeeding in) become a famous tactician. I can see a more jaded, cynical version of our Avatar joining Bern because it was the most lucrative option, and how they saw the tides of war rolling in, and wanted to make themselves useful. Or maybe they joined in order to end the war quickly, trying to save their potential child from a prolonged war. And then imagine how that fight would be, if Lyn lived and Mark was with Bern - imagine how heartbreaking that boss dialogue would be for people. For two completely different generations, Mark and Lyn might have been players first Fire Emblem characters* EVER...and to have them face off and try to kill each other at the end of this game...this would be heartbreaking, but if pulled off well...yeah, I want that. (Bonus heartbreak points to those who have shipped Lyn and Mark together for years, and having a combined FE 6/7 remake that allows them to marry and have a child/children...only to have one potentially kill the other at the end of the game. Or maybe they can pull a Radiant Dawn, and if certain conditions are met, Mark can join the army and everyone gets a happy ending.)

Also, I completely disagree with FE6 not inserting FE7 characters. Remakes are rare chances to not only recreate a game matching how fans imagined/viewed it in its ideal state, but also to fix problems with the previous version, be it gameplay mechanics or continuity problems. Ignoring all of the stuff from FE7 just because it was created after and didn't original fit looks like a giant waste of a second chance to me. Why NOT say "hey, we intended these two things to go together, but we didn't nail it perfectly the first time. Let's try to make them fit together more intentionally this time, alright?"**

As for expanding the FE6 characters, I definitely agree with you in that they could use some expansion and more depth. The great thing is, though, that Fire Emblem as a whole has been gaining that expansion of characters with nearly every release since the GBA games. I firmly believe that in an FE6 remake, there will be more than enough room to expand the characters already there while still making room for new characters and/or FE7 characters. 

 

I'm not sure Karel's character would have worked with the standard FE method of recruiting allies, since he was all about killing strong enemies at the time and such. But I can imagine Lyn and Karla's spots being switched. Karla could have been left along on the Sacean plains, lost without her brother or family, until she found Mark and the two find out Karel and Karla's heritage. From there, Karla's arc could be about saving her grandfather and then trying to find a clue of where her brother is, in order to make the rest of her family "whole." When Karel and Karla met, I would like it to go with Karla recognizing she doesn't need her brother anymore, as she has found a new family and an independence birthed by trials and allies; nevertheless, she would like her brother join her. 

Meanwhile, Lyn's arc would have been about finding a purpose to live after the slaughter of her tribe. She would find herself alone and adrift in arenas until she is beaten one day, and someone asks for her help in saving someone else who is not lost. This would ignite something in Lyn, and she would soon find a purpose in saving those who haven't lost everything, not yet. This would culminate in Lyn being the one to bond with Karel, as she would be strong enough to hold her own against him, and she'd be the one to smack some sense about friendship, family, and strength into his head, as the Sword Demon still only sees his sister as something weak (despite joining her cause at this point). 

 

 

 

*Outside of Smash Bros of course.

**Which is hypocritical of me, as I would probably rip the Children Units out of Fates and plant them in a different game, like Three Houses, if given the chance. But again, remakes are second chances, and features roughly implemented the first time can be expanded upon the second time without taking up space for new things. 

I tossed around the idea of making Mark a villain in my head as well. I recall someone made a thread a while back picking up the clues about Mark and noticing that they're (wait, Mark isn't a girl's name at all!?) probably from Bern, though defecting at the time of Blazing Blade. To add you have Mark's best ending where people start wars to recruit the tactician, which just doesn't fit into the canon at all, but getting involved in the war that's happening anyway, that can loosely, at a squint, tie into Mark's Blazing Blade ending. And just in general I find making them a villain would be a more interesting move to pull rather than shoving them somehow into a playable character role and then ignoring. The issue is that Zephiel is absolutely nuts and it'd kind of stain Mark's character to ally with him, though that isn't much of an issue for the likes of Galle who is one of the most liked des Camus in the series for some reason. Just make it so Mark only sees the dragons as a weapon of war and doesn't know about the plan to eradicate humanity, they're just fighting for their country. In addition, having Mark argue with Narcian would probably be pure gold. Only question would be what chapter to fight them in. I think maybe either the last chapter before the gaiden of Sacae and Ilia. Roartz, while important to the plot, really lacks the charisma to cap off those arcs.

[Use the Falchion]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think maybe either the last chapter before the gaiden of Sacae and Ilia. Roartz, while important to the plot, really lacks the charisma to cap off those arcs.

Oh I like that!

 

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

To add you have Mark's best ending where people start wars to recruit the tactician, which just doesn't fit into the canon at all, but getting involved in the war that's happening anyway, that can loosely, at a squint, tie into Mark's Blazing Blade ending.

I think revising that but working it into Mark's story is a potentially good way to go. Imagine having wars started for your sake, because of your skills and powers. That would either drive people to god complexes, or completely and utterly destroy their faith in humanity. If Mark fell into the latter category, they could be fully on-board with Zephiel's plan. I'd rather they'd go with something akin to Yen'fay in Awakening, where it's one character looking out for someone else, but doing it in a way that actively and tragically harms that person more than it helps. 

 

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Zephiel is absolutely nuts and it'd kind of stain Mark's character to ally with him, though that isn't much of an issue for the likes of Galle who is one of the most liked des Camus in the series for some reason.

Mark could trying to be an "angel" to Jahn's "devil," trying to convince Zephiel to rule instead of annihilate. 

[Metal Flash]

As fun of an idea as Mark being a villain sounds, I can`t see them handling it all that well. Either they would be a botched attempt at a Camus, or they`re just on the villain side for "reasons". Besides, I can`t see them doing something as risky as making the avatar character an antagonist. 

While Lyn being playable in FE6 isn`t something I would hate, I can`t help but feel they would try to force her into an important role to capitalize on her popularity. 

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Also, I completely disagree with FE6 not inserting FE7 characters. Remakes are rare chances to not only recreate a game matching how fans imagined/viewed it in its ideal state, but also to fix problems with the previous version, be it gameplay mechanics or continuity problems. Ignoring all of the stuff from FE7 just because it was created after and didn't original fit looks like a giant waste of a second chance to me. Why NOT say "hey, we intended these two things to go together, but we didn't nail it perfectly the first time. Let's try to make them fit together more intentionally this time, alright?"

In that case, I would rather they alter details from Blazing Sword to fit better with Binding Blade. Then again, maybe doing the reverse would be easier, I have little knowledge of what continuity between the two games is either shaky or just incorrect.

[Use the Falchion]

3 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

In that case, I would rather they alter details from Blazing Sword to fit better with Binding Blade. Then again, maybe doing the reverse would be easier, I have little knowledge of what continuity between the two games is either shaky or just incorrect.

I think altering both to fit the other is the key. Blazing Sword has details that it needs altered to fit Binding Blade, but Binding Blade shouldn't be uncompromising in its change either. They're both working together to tell a generational story, regardless of the original intent was - they now should focus on doing so. 

 

3 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

While Lyn being playable in FE6 isn`t something I would hate, I can`t help but feel they would try to force her into an important role to capitalize on her popularity. 

That's a valid concern. Still creating a role where she fits properly is better than ignoring her entirely or killing her off, IMO. 

 

3 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Besides, I can`t see them doing something as risky as making the avatar character an antagonist. 

I think that could work so long as Mark has a child, but it's a very valid concern. 

 

 

[Metal Flash]

11 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I think altering both to fit the other is the key. Blazing Sword has details that it needs altered to fit Binding Blade, but Binding Blade shouldn't be uncompromising in its change either. They're both working together to tell a generational story, regardless of the original intent was - they now should focus on doing so. 

Fair point.