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16 command Muarim and putting as many commands on the menu as possible


OriginalRaisins
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16 command Muarim:

I was theorycrafting with some people in a twitch chat about how to get as many commands on a unit in RD as possible. After some deliberation we came up with the following solution:

  • Needs to fit all of gamble, flourish, and parity skills for extra commands (3)
  • Needs to be able to shove and smite (2)
  • Needs to be able to rescue. If you stand next to a rescuable unit AND another ally holding a rescuable unit, you can get rescue and take (2)
  • Needs to be next to an enemy for attack commands and the aforementioned skills (1)
  • Needs to be next to a door with a door key in the inventory for both door and break door commands (2)
  • Needs to have a talk (1)
  • Needs to have a new support rank with a unit to get the converse command (1)
  • If a laguz, you have the ability to revert (1)
  • If you have items, you'll have items and trade commands (2)
  • You always have wait command (1)

This brought us to 16 commands. The only way I could contrive all of these together was Muarim on 4-4 standing on the exact tile shown in the picture, as he is not only a laguz unit, he is a laguz unit with a talk on a map with a door. I believe this is the most commands you can get on one menu in Radiant Dawn, but I challenge anyone here to either try to beat it OR find another place you can get 16 commands. And yes, you can navigate this menu using right and left on dpad.

Furthermore, what is the highest number of commands you can get in another game? I already have some theories crafted for the gba titles but I have nothing concrete yet.

Easter egg: Mist promoted on the ledge in this map so that she's trapped forever. I also threw out the rescue staff.

16 command Muarim.png

Edited by OriginalRaisins
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18 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

I'm pretty sure nothing beats what you got on Muarim here and no other games come even close to that. There is no convoy in RD during map right?

Yeah, the Tellius games have no convoy during the map. 16 might actually be the maximum possible number of commands. The only other command skill you could assign would be Wildheart, but for the half-shift command to appear you would have to be untransformed which removes the attack command. EDIT: You also lose the possibility to Beak Door so Wildheart would bring it down to 15 commands, as I just realized xd

Edited by GonzoMD1993
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You challenge us to get anything higher than that, but that's pretty much all the commands, right? Well I guess there's Staff and Galdr, but a staff unit loses resist and a Heron unit loses all the attack commands. I guess my point is how m any commands are there total? Because Galdr and Staff are the only things I can think of that exist in addition to those 16.

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24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You challenge us to get anything higher than that, but that's pretty much all the commands, right? Well I guess there's Staff and Galdr, but a staff unit loses resist and a Heron unit loses all the attack commands. I guess my point is how m any commands are there total? Because Galdr and Staff are the only things I can think of that exist in addition to those 16.

There's a few more but most of them are incompatible with having 4 command skills equipped at the same time.

  • Staff (Beorcs can't have more than 2 or so command skills equipped because of capacity)
  • Steal (same issue)
  • Sacrifice (same issue)
  • Galdr (Herons can't attack)
  • Half-shift (implies being untransformed so combat related commands are lost)
  • Glare (Nailah can only equip 2 more skills at most because she has 4 locked skills)
  • Drop (you can match the 16 commands because this means you can also Give, but you still can't exceed 16)
  • Give (same issue)
  • Open Chest (means giving up on being next to a door, which gives you 2 commands instead of 1)
  • Arrive/Seize/Escape (same issue, on top of having other problems)
Edited by GonzoMD1993
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6 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Furthermore, what is the highest number of commands you can get in another game? I already have some theories crafted for the gba titles but I have nothing concrete yet.

Here's my take on Three Houses:

  • Attack. Anyone with a weapon or spell can do this. (1)
  • Combat Art. Just have a proper combat art attached. (2)
  • Support. Using supportive white magic (i.e. Heal) (3)
  • Items. Anyone with Items can fiddle with them. (4)
  • Trade. Anyone with Items, adjacent to an ally, can do this. (5)
  • Gambit. Anyone with an equipped battalion and proper placement can do it. (6)
  • Rally. Anyone with a Rally skill can do this. (7)
  • Steal. Anyone with the Steal skill (either as a Thief, or via Thief Mastery) can do it. (8)
  • Door. Anyone with Locktouch or a Door Key can open an adjacent door. (9)
  • Talk. Anyone with a mid-map conversation can do this. (10)
  • Dance. Anyone in the Dancer class can do this. (11)
  • Convoy. Teach, or anyone adjacent to them, can do this. (12)
  • Wait. The universal command. (13)

Other commands:

  • Chest. I don't know of any places where a unit can either open a door or a chest, however.
  • Warp Tile. These are specific to one map, however.
  • Switch/Lever. Again, there aren't that many of these.

Uncertain commands:

  • Break Door. If I recall, breaking any breakable barriers is done through the Attack or Combat Art command.

So to my best knowledge and memory, you can get up to 13 commands on one unit in Three Houses. Who could actually do this, though, and where? Well, let's look to Reunion at Dawn. All returning students have a Talk with Teach on that map. And it also features quite a few unlockable Doors and Chests. Not to mention, enemies with items that you can Steal. Basically, make sure your Dancer is one of the in-house students who shows up, and make sure they've equipped the Steal skill, and at least one Rally (unless their personal skill is a Rally, i.e. Annette). They should be carrying either a Door Key or a Chest Key (Ashe would be the exception, but he learns no Rallies). Make sure they have at least one combat art (this can be offensive like Wrath Strike, or supportive like Shove), as well as a support spell like Heal (since Dancers can use magic). Give them a battalion, and save at least one gambit charge. Finally, make sure they have a weapon or offensive spell.

Now, in terms of actually executing it - try to draw in an enemy unit (with a stealable item) so that they're caddy-corner to either an unopened chest or door. Then, move an injured Teach in so that they're two spaces away from said enemy. Now, put your Dancer in between the two of them. Your Dancer should have the option to Attack (1) the enemy, use a Combat Art (2) on either Teach or the enemy, Support (3) the injured Teach with Heal, mess around with their Items (4), Trade (5) with Teach, use a Gambit (6) on either Teach or the enemy, Rally (7) their professor, Steal (8) from the enemy, open the Door or Chest (9) nearby, Talk (10) to Teach, Dance (11) for Teach, access the Convoy (12), or, finally, Wait (13). There are multiple candidates for such an operation - Dorothea on SS, Annette on AM, or Ignatz on VW all come to mind. It really comes down to showing up in Chapter 13, not being Teach (since they can't go Dancer), and learning at least one Rally.

How does this sound? Did I miss anything? Or, is there another scenario wherein this value would be exceeded?

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3 hours ago, GonzoMD1993 said:

There's a few more but most of them are incompatible with having 4 command skills equipped at the same time.

  • Staff (Beorcs can't have more than 2 or so command skills equipped because of capacity)
  • Steal (same issue)
  • Sacrifice (same issue)
  • Galdr (Herons can't attack)
  • Half-shift (implies being untransformed so combat related commands are lost)
  • Glare (Nailah can only equip 2 more skills at most because she has 4 locked skills)
  • Drop (you can match the 16 commands because this means you can also Give, but you still can't exceed 16)
  • Give (same issue)
  • Open Chest (means giving up on being next to a door, which gives you 2 commands instead of 1)
  • Arrive/Seize/Escape (same issue, on top of having other problems)

From memory, isn't there also Order and Direct? Using Micaiah, you could potentially have Order, Direct, Staff and Sacrifice. You'd lose out on Revert, and only be able to get a maximum of two command skills (from Smite, Gamble, Parity and Flourish), but that could potentially give you seventeen in total. However, that would require a chapter with yellow units and doors and a talk opportunity and it would have to be late enough for her to have two command skills. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't believe that any such chapter exists.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Other commands:

  • Chest. I don't know of any places where a unit can either open a door or a chest, however.
  • Warp Tile. These are specific to one map, however.
  • Switch/Lever. Again, there aren't that many of these.

There's also the Arms command for using a siege weapon. The Great Bridge of Myrdin map has a chest adjacent to a ballista which would be a net gain of one command (adding Chest and Arms but losing Door). Is there any talk option for any levels on that map? I don't remember any, but if there are then that could maybe net you one extra.

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3 hours ago, lenticular said:

There's also the Arms command for using a siege weapon. The Great Bridge of Myrdin map has a chest adjacent to a ballista which would be a net gain of one command (adding Chest and Arms but losing Door). Is there any talk option for any levels on that map? I don't remember any, but if there are then that could maybe net you one extra.

Ah, that's a good point - I forgot about the "Arms" command. That said, if there's no "Talk" instance on the Bridge map (and I don't remember any), then it would tie with the Reunion at Dawn record of 13.

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5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Now, in terms of actually executing it - try to draw in an enemy unit (with a stealable item) so that they're caddy-corner to either an unopened chest or door. Then, move an injured Teach in so that they're two spaces away from said enemy. Now, put your Dancer in between the two of them. Your Dancer should have the option to Attack (1) the enemy, use a Combat Art (2) on either Teach or the enemy, Support (3) the injured Teach with Heal, mess around with their Items (4), Trade (5) with Teach, use a Gambit (6) on either Teach or the enemy, Rally (7) their professor, Steal (8) from the enemy, open the Door or Chest (9) nearby, Talk (10) to Teach, Dance (11) for Teach, access the Convoy (12), or, finally, Wait (13). There are multiple candidates for such an operation - Dorothea on SS, Annette on AM, or Ignatz on VW all come to mind. It really comes down to showing up in Chapter 13, not being Teach (since they can't go Dancer), and learning at least one Rally.

How does this sound? Did I miss anything? Or, is there another scenario wherein this value would be exceeded?

This is kind of similar to my own except I used a mounted Dorothea to cast spells and have dismount. You lose one command from dance (-1) but then you get dismount for +1 so it all evens out. I forgot completely about steal.

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8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's my take on Three Houses:

  • Attack. Anyone with a weapon or spell can do this. (1)
  • Combat Art. Just have a proper combat art attached. (2)
  • Support. Using supportive white magic (i.e. Heal) (3)
  • Items. Anyone with Items can fiddle with them. (4)
  • Trade. Anyone with Items, adjacent to an ally, can do this. (5)
  • Gambit. Anyone with an equipped battalion and proper placement can do it. (6)
  • Rally. Anyone with a Rally skill can do this. (7)
  • Steal. Anyone with the Steal skill (either as a Thief, or via Thief Mastery) can do it. (8)
  • Door. Anyone with Locktouch or a Door Key can open an adjacent door. (9)
  • Talk. Anyone with a mid-map conversation can do this. (10)
  • Dance. Anyone in the Dancer class can do this. (11)
  • Convoy. Teach, or anyone adjacent to them, can do this. (12)
  • Wait. The universal command. (13)

Other commands:

  • Chest. I don't know of any places where a unit can either open a door or a chest, however.
  • Warp Tile. These are specific to one map, however.
  • Switch/Lever. Again, there aren't that many of these.

Uncertain commands:

  • Break Door. If I recall, breaking any breakable barriers is done through the Attack or Combat Art command.

So to my best knowledge and memory, you can get up to 13 commands on one unit in Three Houses. Who could actually do this, though, and where? Well, let's look to Reunion at Dawn. All returning students have a Talk with Teach on that map. And it also features quite a few unlockable Doors and Chests. Not to mention, enemies with items that you can Steal. Basically, make sure your Dancer is one of the in-house students who shows up, and make sure they've equipped the Steal skill, and at least one Rally (unless their personal skill is a Rally, i.e. Annette). They should be carrying either a Door Key or a Chest Key (Ashe would be the exception, but he learns no Rallies). Make sure they have at least one combat art (this can be offensive like Wrath Strike, or supportive like Shove), as well as a support spell like Heal (since Dancers can use magic). Give them a battalion, and save at least one gambit charge. Finally, make sure they have a weapon or offensive spell.

Now, in terms of actually executing it - try to draw in an enemy unit (with a stealable item) so that they're caddy-corner to either an unopened chest or door. Then, move an injured Teach in so that they're two spaces away from said enemy. Now, put your Dancer in between the two of them. Your Dancer should have the option to Attack (1) the enemy, use a Combat Art (2) on either Teach or the enemy, Support (3) the injured Teach with Heal, mess around with their Items (4), Trade (5) with Teach, use a Gambit (6) on either Teach or the enemy, Rally (7) their professor, Steal (8) from the enemy, open the Door or Chest (9) nearby, Talk (10) to Teach, Dance (11) for Teach, access the Convoy (12), or, finally, Wait (13). There are multiple candidates for such an operation - Dorothea on SS, Annette on AM, or Ignatz on VW all come to mind. It really comes down to showing up in Chapter 13, not being Teach (since they can't go Dancer), and learning at least one Rally.

How does this sound? Did I miss anything? Or, is there another scenario wherein this value would be exceeded?

The only thing I can think of is the Sothis Shield, which can be used by Byleth only, and I think needs the amiibo Gazebo.

We’d use a similar strategy to yours, of luring an enemy two spaces away to an unopened door/chest, and putting one of the students on another space. Byleth should be a mounted class with magic, such as Valkyrie or Dark Flier, to give them access to both magic and dismounting (which they’d need since you can’t have dancer Byleth). The only rally Byleth has is Rally Move at like S authority, which will probably need Ng+, but it can be achieved.

In this case, they can 

Attack (1) the enemy

Use a combat art (2)

Use healing magic (3)

Use an item (4)

Use the convoy (5)

Use a gambit (6)

Use Sothis Shield (7)

Rally Move (8)

Talk to their student (9)

Dismount (10)

Steal from the enemy (11)

Open sesame (12)

Trade with a student (13)

And, finally, wait (14)

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8 hours ago, lenticular said:

From memory, isn't there also Order and Direct? Using Micaiah, you could potentially have Order, Direct, Staff and Sacrifice. You'd lose out on Revert, and only be able to get a maximum of two command skills (from Smite, Gamble, Parity and Flourish), but that could potentially give you seventeen in total. However, that would require a chapter with yellow units and doors and a talk opportunity and it would have to be late enough for her to have two command skills. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't believe that any such chapter exists.

There's also the Arms command for using a siege weapon. The Great Bridge of Myrdin map has a chest adjacent to a ballista which would be a net gain of one command (adding Chest and Arms but losing Door). Is there any talk option for any levels on that map? I don't remember any, but if there are then that could maybe net you one extra.

From what I recall, order and direct aren't commands that show up on the units regular command window. You access it by selecting on the unit after they've .oved or by selecting an empty tile. Its been a while though.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

From what I recall, order and direct aren't commands that show up on the units regular command window. You access it by selecting on the unit after they've .oved or by selecting an empty tile. Its been a while though.

I'm pretty sure they do show up on the regular command window. They stand out by being listed in cyan and yellow. Selecting either one opens up a new window, however.

4 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Attack (1) the enemy

Use a combat art (2)

Use healing magic (3)

Use an item (4)

Use the convoy (5)

Use a gambit (6)

Use Sothis Shield (7)

Rally Move (8)

Talk to their student (9)

Dismount (10)

Steal from the enemy (11)

Open sesame (12)

Trade with a student (13)

And, finally, wait (14)

This looks right! I totally forgot about Dismount, possibly because it was mutually exclusive with Dancing. Also about the Sothis Shield command, but that's because I don't have access to it.

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53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

This is the first I'm even hearing of the Sothis Shield. Never knew about it at all. Can you get it using any Amiibo or just a Fire Emblem one?

I’ve never used it myself tbh, but from what I’ve read, you need to be on NG+ and have access to the holy tomb via the Gazebo, which I think does need an FE amiibo.

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For once something I can answer to, well, at least for the first 8 games, or at least FE8 for now.

In short, some years ago I started theorycrafting how long I could get the command menu in FE8 after I accidentally opened a huge one in the Scorched Sands EphR when I used my freshly promoted Summoner!Knoll to visit the village while Vanessa rescuing someone was baiting an enemy on top of it and at the same time with Ephraim Shielding him, resulting in a whopping 9 commands menu (Attack, Summon, Staff, Visit, Take, Item, Trade, Supply, Wait). So it sparked in me the curiosity to find which of of the first 8 games could have the longest menu: in short, aside from 5 and 8 all of the other have a kinda boring and expected answers, usually being a combination of thief/staffer plus a chest/village and some enemies in the vicinity. While I have to fully finish theory crafting 5, with 8 I did all I could do to find an answer but sadly even after all my work I realized I had pretty much the answer from the start. 

Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones

Preface

First, all the commands you can have in FE8 are:

-Attack

-Staff

-Summon

-Steal

-Dance

-Ride/Exit

-Visit/Shop/Chest (grouped because all of them require the unit to stand on a tile)

-Door

-Talk

-Support

-Rescue

-Take/Give (can only have either at a time, though Take is obviously the better one in this case)

-Trade

-Supply

-Items

-Wait

Out of all of these: Units always have Items and Wait, Dancers can't attack so it's out of the question, Ballistas are way too rare to matter, We can exclude Give since we want to be able to rescue, and have to decide between either Door or Visit/Chest as there's no adjacent village, shop, house or chest to a door.

The Strat

Simply put, the first strategy I accidentally found was already the solution. In the beginning I tried my trustworthy Thief/Rogue method, but as I said earlier, there's no door right next to a chest, so I quickly discarded this hypothesis. Next I get back to work with Summoners, which means either Knoll or Ewan. Using a summoner means it's easy to get at least 10 commands:

-Attack

-Staff

-Summon

-Support

-Rescue

-Take

-Trade

-Supply

-Items

-Wait

But it also means we give up Dance, as already said, and Steal. That leaves two commands left to figure out: Door/Visit and Talk. Door/Visit is relatively simple to figure out, so the only one giving trouble is Talk. Well, only Ewan can talk, and that's to recruit Marisa in Landing at Taizel, but since you recruit him in that chapter it's impossible to promote him to Summoner during said chapter, making it unfeasible. So we're stuck with 11 commands max.

The How To

You can do this set-up in basically almost all the chapter after Ewan joins, but I will describe it for Eirika Route ch16 Ruled by Madness.

Recipe:

-A promoted Summoner (either Knoll or Ewan) 

-An unpromoted Eirika

-A character that currently can support with the summoner and that's rescuing someone with less than 8 Con

-A Dark Tome

-A Saff

-A Door Key

Now play the level normally taking care not to kill the Druid on the upper left, or to open the door to his room. Bait him with the support character, than rescue the low Con unit and position them in a square adjacent to the one next to the door. Place Eirika in another one of these spots and finally place Knoll right in front of the Door, you should get a 11 commands menu.

Well that's it, I'm replaying it myself to get a screenshot and I should be able to post it tonight. Also forgive me If I made some mistakes, English is not my first language and today I'm kinda off.

Edited by Quell
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Commando-Muarim.png

Well, I think I've ALMOST hit the limit. Titania and Oliver are yellow units and that doesn't even want to show up anymore.  I'd have to preemptively change game code to make them partners from the start. Changing them from later on didn't work. 

Now, since we're not playing by the rules anymore there's a few commands we could add, I just don't know how atm. These are:
- Yellow units direct 
- Making a tile a unit adjacent to Muarim have a "Visit" flag and giving Muarim the bandit skill. This would add "Visit" and "Destroy"
- Doing the same for another tile next to Muarim, but making it a torch. this would add the command "Burn/Extinguish"
- Doing the same but making a tile a chest, this would add "Chest" and "Chest", yes, two times, since you can give Muarim Volke's 50 gold command. So two more commands to add.
That's all tiles around Muarim covered by units and objects. So no more things to add there. But there is one more;
Make Muarim stand on a ballista, for an additional command.

Adding onto the current list you'd get an additional 7 commands for a total of 29 Commands Muarim could theoretically use.

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4 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Commando-Muarim.png

The idea of an untransformed lagus using Gamble is just plain ludicrous.

Quote

- Doing the same but making a tile a chest, this would add "Chest" and "Chest", yes, two times, since you can give Muarim Volke's 50 gold command. So two more commands to add.

That's a thing in this game? There's like a single chest to use it on in Rebirth 1, after you recruit him and that's literally it (as far as I can remember). And to make it even more pointless, that one chest is passed the point where you can even spend money at all!

Edited by Jotari
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38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The idea of an untransformed lagus using Gamble is just plain ludicrous.

That's a thing in this game? There's like a single chest to use it on in Rebirth 1, after you recruit him and that's literally it (as far as I can remember). And to make it even more pointless, that one chest is passed the point where you can even spend money at all!


The command doesn't even have a description. It just says "dummy".
But yeah, they're two different forms of opening chests. So two commands. Giving Muarim both skills and then making the tile Ike is standing on a chest would allow for it to happen.

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3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

The command doesn't even have a description. It just says "dummy".

Does this mean if I equip Volke with a chest key and move him next to the chest he will have the 2 commands? I want to try this in my next run. It's likely just a distinction in the game code that would never manifest in the game itself.

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1 hour ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Does this mean if I equip Volke with a chest key and move him next to the chest he will have the 2 commands? I want to try this in my next run. It's likely just a distinction in the game code that would never manifest in the game itself.

Well like I said, there's all of one chest in Rebirth 1 for the player to try and use it on

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3 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

Does this mean if I equip Volke with a chest key and move him next to the chest he will have the 2 commands? I want to try this in my next run. It's likely just a distinction in the game code that would never manifest in the game itself.

Iirc chest keys take prio. But the skills don't have prio since they never overlap. That's what I remember at least.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well like I said, there's all of one chest in Rebirth 1 for the player to try and use it on

One is all you need ;)

I've definitely opened the chest with Volke before (And I've definitely had not enough gold to open the chest with Volke before XD )

Edited by OriginalRaisins
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