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Emperor Hardin

A replacement for Shadow Dragon as a focus game

What should've replaced Shadow Dragon as a focus game  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. Replacement for SD as Focus game?

    • Binding Blade/Blazing Blade
      5
    • Sacred Stones
      1
    • Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn
      4
    • Genealogy of the Holy War/Thracia 776
      0
    • Nothing
      3
    • Other
      0


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Lets face it, Shadow Dragon was an afterthought in the final game with little presence, much less characters, no stage influence and often had inaccuracies the rare times it did appear. Not to mention, there wasn't alot of room for clones from the series given the abundance of major characters in it that are Lance Cavaliers and to a lesser extent, Knights. 

So with this in mind, what game do you think would've gotten more representation if it had been chosen as the focus game. You can come up with three new movesets to replace Marth and Linde's movesets.i

Me, I'd cover Tellius, mainly Path of Radiance but with a bit of Radiant Dawn (similar to how some of the only SD elements in FE:W were actually MoTe). I think that'd allow Ike with a new moveset and the Black knight and/or a Laguz like Ranulf or Tibarn as the next moveset. I'm thinking Titania (Frederick), Soren (Robin) and Mist (Elise) would work as clones. A stage based off the Tower of Guidance would be very cool.

Marth could still have appeared, just as a guest with a clone moveset like Lyn was in the final game. And I guess if you stretch it, Tiki could still appear as the Awakening version.

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Probably Elibe. It has several things going in its favor. Its the first FE continent in the west and its still highly regarded, Lyn's already around and if the devs would insist on one continent to play second fiddle then you don't really need much to make Elibe work. Just have Roy, Eliwood and Hector join Lyn and you've got a decent starting cast. Eliwood would be an easy clone of Xander due to being a sword pony, and Hector could be the first legitimate armor knight.

 

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One of the main reasons I even want a sequel is for Tellius characters, so I'mma go with that.

 

Blazing Sword is a strong contender, but if we're talking Elibe as a whole, Blazing carries Binding hard. People only generally care about BB for Roy and Lilina, with most of the rest of the cast being wildly obscure.

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That's assuming a different game wouldn't get the same treatment. It wasn't this way due to a lack of material, if that's what you think it is. If anything, the SD cast had slightly more significance in relation to the original story due to the parallels between them and the Kingdom Aytolis. Now, said story could absolutely use more expansion, but otherwise, unless you change the entire conceptualization of it, I don't think any other world would mesh very well with what is already there. You'd simply have to make a different FE Warriors game at that point

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The reality is that FEW's roster is quite large by the standards of licensed musou games. The quality and variety of character choices was poor, and it goes without saying that some of that quantity is due to clones, but there's no reason to think that different game choices would have lead to substantially more characters.

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49 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Probably Elibe. It has several things going in its favor. Its the first FE continent in the west and its still highly regarded, Lyn's already around and if the devs would insist on one continent to play second fiddle then you don't really need much to make Elibe work. Just have Roy, Eliwood and Hector join Lyn and you've got a decent starting cast. Eliwood would be an easy clone of Xander due to being a sword pony, and Hector could be the first legitimate armor knight.

Oh I forgot about Eliwood being a perfect fit for Xander's moveset.

Plus Axe Armored Knight could kinda fill the fighter void like in TMS.

49 minutes ago, Motendra said:

If anything, the SD cast had slightly more significance in relation to the original story due to the parallels between them and the Kingdom Aytolis.

This is complete nonsense, the only thing from Shadow Dragon in Warriors is the enemy army having Manaketes in it

Nearly the entire story is based wholly on Awakening with lords similar to the Sacred Stones siblings, even the Emblem is based off the vague Awakening incarnations. I can even do a long list of the close parallels between Awakening and WarriorsLandia.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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55 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

The reality is that FEW's roster is quite large by the standards of licensed musou games. The quality and variety of character choices was poor, and it goes without saying that some of that quantity is due to clones, but there's no reason to think that different game choices would have lead to substantially more characters.

True. Just going by the numbers the cast isn't particularly small. But due to the many bad choices it certainly feels small. It has has almost twice the amount of characters as BOTW characters and despite me having always known that it still feels surprising when you fully realize that.

The clones are definitely to blame to some extend. The characters feel similar to each others in ways that characters from Hyrule, One Piece or even Samurai Warriors don't. In Hyrule Warriors everyone seems to have a little gimmick that's entirety their own but FE Warriors mostly lacks that aspect. But I think mostly that the roster being so inefficiently put together is to blame. There's a lot of filler and not enough killer. Plenty of characters on the roster aren't required or share their space on the roster with characters overly similar to them, while many heavy hitters, archtype starters and villains are nowhere to be seen. There not even being any real villains beyond a trio of  dark mage losers(of which two are relatively minor villains to boot) further gives the roster a small feeling.  

On some level Fire Emblem was always more tricky to build a roster around but Koei and IS also seemed to have gone out of their way to make it even harder for themselves. 

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3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Oh I forgot about Eliwood being a perfect fit for Xander's moveset.

Plus Axe Armored Knight could kinda fill the fighter void like in TMS.

This is complete nonsense, the only thing from Shadow Dragon in Warriors is the enemy army having Manaketes in it

Nearly the entire story is based wholly on Awakening with lords similar to the Sacred Stones siblings, even the Emblem is based off the vague Awakening incarnations. Please go over Shadow Dragon before you say its represented. I can even do a long list of the close parallels between Awakening and WarriorsLandia.

Bear in mind that I'm not talking about it's basic plot. It's a more subtle thing with regards to the twin lords themselves growing into their roles that callback to the ideas of the original game; a deposed royal forms a ragtag army to reclaim their home and eventually save the world.

It's less opaque in comparison and most prolly won't even care, but its something I happen to really like about it. It's also what makes Rowan & Liana's supports with each gleamstone holder my favorites.

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Just now, Motendra said:

Bear in mind that I'm not talking about it's basic plot. It's a more subtle thing with regards to the twin lords themselves growing into their roles that callback to the ideas of the original game; a deposed royal forms a ragtag army to reclaim their home and eventually save the world.

That applies to nearly every game and Rowan/Lianna aren't even exiled, if anything twin lords is entirely Sacred Stones and nothing from Shadow Dragon. Now if they were exiled to an island nation, than you might have a point, but they weren't so you don't.

Think about the general plot.

  1. A singular Divine Dragon, instead of a bunch being known, that is worshipped as the Divine Dragon like a title instead of a species just like in Awakening.
  2. A Dragon without a Manakete form that possesses a human just like Awakening contrast the chatty Medeus who never possessed anyone.
  3. A table specifically just for reviving Dragon just like in Awakening and unlike in SD where the altar doesn't show up or MoTE where the Altar is for holding Dragons.
  4. A world tree just like Awakening's Mila tree, there are no locations based on anywhere from Shadow Dragon.
  5. A Shield that needs to be completed by the villains to revive the villain unlike the Binding Shield which needed to be kept apart by the villains.

The plot closely follows Awakening, not Shadow Dragon.

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16 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That applies to nearly every game and Rowan/Lianna aren't even exiled, if anything twin lords is entirely Sacred Stones and nothing from Shadow Dragon. Now if they were exiled to an island nation, than you might have a point, but they weren't so you don't.

Think about the general plot.

  1. A singular Divine Dragon, instead of a bunch being known, that is worshipped as the Divine Dragon like a title instead of a species just like in Awakening.
  2. A Dragon without a Manakete form that possesses a human just like Awakening contrast the chatty Medeus who never possessed anyone.
  3. A table specifically just for reviving Dragon just like in Awakening and unlike in SD where the altar doesn't show up or MoTE where the Altar is for holding Dragons.
  4. A world tree just like Awakening's Mila tree, there are no locations based on anywhere from Shadow Dragon.
  5. A Shield that needs to be completed by the villains to revive the villain unlike the Binding Shield which needed to be kept apart by the villains.

The plot closely follows Awakening, not Shadow Dragon.

Yes, however, every game thereafter has its own nuances to that idea that would be extremely out of place without, and if brought in, could likely detract from the idea that their trying to bring full circle.

For example, imagine if SD & Awakening switched roles in relation to the story. Given the relationship between the two, there's a lot to lose in this situation considering how Ylisse holds no significance at all to Archanea while the inverse serves as legacy to the other and seemingly provides the same reverence to them in the context of Warriors as it currently is.

I may have misworded my point initially, but if there is to be such characters to carry that kind of torch, I personally don't think any other game could have done it better. The short stick is still regrettable yes, but I at least am able to find value in what we have.

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14 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Yes, however, every game thereafter has its own nuances to that idea that would be extremely out of place without, and if brought in, could likely detract from the idea that their trying to bring full circle.

For example, imagine if SD & Awakening switched roles in relation to the story. Given the relationship between the two, there's a lot to lose in this situation considering how Ylisse holds no significance at all to Archanea while the inverse serves as legacy to the other and seemingly provides the same reverence to them in the context of Warriors as it currently is.

I may have misworded my point initially, but if there is to be such characters to carry that kind of torch, I personally don't think any other game could have done it better. The short stick is still regrettable yes, but I at least am able to find value in what we have.

I disagree, the three Shadow Dragon appears with no real story presence in chapter 14 which has no relation to Shadow Dragon and the next stage being an explicit reference to Awakening. Any FE characters would've worked there.

14 minutes ago, Motendra said:

For example, imagine if SD & Awakening switched roles in relation to the story. Given the relationship between the two, there's a lot to lose in this situation considering how Ylisse holds no significance at all to Archanea while the inverse serves as legacy to the other and seemingly provides the same reverence to them in the context of Warriors as it currently is.

That isn't correct either, Marth is referenced only with Lucina's disguise and one single piece of dialogue in a Tiki/Robin support, everything else they talk about the First Exalt.

They don't even remember what Marth did in Ylisse's time. 

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On 10/2/2021 at 7:22 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

True. Just going by the numbers the cast isn't particularly small. But due to the many bad choices it certainly feels small. It has has almost twice the amount of characters as BOTW characters and despite me having always known that it still feels surprising when you fully realize that.

The clones are definitely to blame to some extend. The characters feel similar to each others in ways that characters from Hyrule, One Piece or even Samurai Warriors don't. In Hyrule Warriors everyone seems to have a little gimmick that's entirety their own but FE Warriors mostly lacks that aspect. But I think mostly that the roster being so inefficiently put together is to blame. There's a lot of filler and not enough killer. Plenty of characters on the roster aren't required or share their space on the roster with characters overly similar to them, while many heavy hitters, archtype starters and villains are nowhere to be seen. There not even being any real villains beyond a trio of  dark mage losers(of which two are relatively minor villains to boot) further gives the roster a small feeling.  

On some level Fire Emblem was always more tricky to build a roster around but Koei and IS also seemed to have gone out of their way to make it even harder for themselves. 

The clones aren't as bad as people make them out to be, and I will absolutely take a roster of 32 clones with 15 or so movesets over a more normal 20 characters with unique movesets. Most new licenses hit around the 15-20 character range. With that in mind, FEW has as many unique movesets as most spinoffs have characters.

 

There's also the unstated benefit of clones. If you hate character x (I hate Elise), but like character y with the same moveset (I like Leo) you can still enjoy the moveset whereas you might have otherwise ignored it.

 

That said, all of the benefits of clones are also possible with costumes, without having to grind identical characters or cluttering the UI.

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9 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

The clones aren't as bad as people make them out to be, and I will absolutely take a roster of 32 clones with 15 or so movesets over a more normal 20 characters with unique movesets. Most new licenses hit around the 15-20 character range. With that in mind, FEW has as many unique movesets as most spinoffs have characters.

There's also the unstated benefit of clones. If you hate character x (I hate Elise), but like character y with the same moveset (I like Leo) you can still enjoy the moveset whereas you might have otherwise ignored it.

That said, all of the benefits of clones are also possible with costumes, without having to grind identical characters or cluttering the UI.

 The problem was they spread the clone movesets poorly, especially with the weapon triangle limitations and Shadow Dragon as a supposed focus game.

War Cleric and Great Knight don't leave alot of clone potential, especially the former. Fighter, Lance Cavalry and Armor would give so much more clone potential, its not even funny.

Lissa and Frederick also aren't notable enough to deserve 100% unique movesets in my personal opinion.

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Great Knight could have been a decent template for Walhart but for other options I'd draw a blank. There's Lex and Kieran of course but those two were never getting it. 

War Cleric is indeed rather tricky. The only other character that really fits with it would be Annette due to being similarly smol and axe focused. Take out the healing and tweak some animations, and maybe someone like Ross could work. 

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4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Great Knight could have been a decent template for Walhart but for other options I'd draw a blank. There's Lex and Kieran of course but those two were never getting it. 

War Cleric is indeed rather tricky. The only other character that really fits with it would be Annette due to being similarly smol and axe focused. Take out the healing and tweak some animations, and maybe someone like Ross could work. 

Duessel? Titania? Both solid and reasonable choices for a sequel.

 

War Cleric - Dorcas could fit the animations. Libra and Balthus of course fit the class. Annette is a great fit. And of course the healing staff can be removed. Healing staff availability is per character, not per moveset.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier

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1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Duessel? Titania? Both solid and reasonable choices for a sequel.

Titania would be a little weird as armor, but she and Lex could fit, as well as Kieran if Koei did a surprise pick.

No one in Archanea remotely fits Frederick's moveset, so a mounted lance really should've been chosen instead. It also could've allowed Xander and the other Cavalry class characters to have two movesets.

1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

War Cleric - Dorcas could fit the animations. Libra and Balthus of course fit the class. Annette is a great fit. And of course the healing staff can be removed. Healing staff availability is per character, not per moveset.

Libra and Balthus aren't popular enough I feel, and several of Lissa's non staff animations use magic from my recollection.

The War Cleric moveset really shouldn't have been in the game if there was that little room for movesets. Very few characters in the whole franchise can use it, let alone characters from the Archanea series.

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6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Titania would be a little weird as armor, but she and Lex could fit, as well as Kieran if Koei did a surprise pick.

No one in Archanea remotely fits Frederick's moveset, so a mounted lance really should've been chosen instead. It also could've allowed Xander and the other Cavalry class characters to have two movesets.

Libra and Balthus aren't popular enough I feel, and several of Lissa's non staff animations use magic from my recollection.

The War Cleric moveset really shouldn't have been in the game if there was that little room for movesets. Very few characters in the whole franchise can use it, let alone characters from the Archanea series.

I really don't think you need to tie weaknesses/armor types to moveset. Titania doesn't have to be an armored unit to ride a horse and swing an axe. The moveset functions the same whether she's called a Paladin or a Great Knight. The only classifications that should theoretically matter are movement types.

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