Let's talk about Rallies

[lenticular]

Over in the thread about the best character for each class, Ignatz and his rallies came up in conversation and I kinda want to talk about that, but I also don't want to go even further off-topic for that thread than it already is, so let's  go with a new topic instead.

How do you feel about rallies in Three Houses?

Personally, I get very little use out of them. I'll use Annette's inate Rally Strength in the very early game, partly because an extra +4 strength matters more early on when enemy HP and Def are that much lower than they get later on but partly also because spell uses run out super fast before hitting level 5 and reclassing to Monk, and rallying can give her something to do.

Beyond that, I also value Rally Charm on Dorothea and Manuela and will likely keep that equipped for a long while, especially if I'm running Dorothea as a Dancer, since she doesn't need many skills to be able to dance effectively. Rally Charm can give a huge boost to gambit hit rates, I think potentially up to 40% depending on the attacker and defender relative charm, and being able to reliably hit with gambits can often make a huge difference. I've certainly had situations where Rally Charm has been the difference between completing a level safely and having to Divine Pulse back multiple turns.

Outside of those three characters, I don't really get much use out of Rallies. I can certainly imagine situations or playstyles which might use them, especially for strategies where a single unit is especially important like one turn kills or enemy phase builds, but neither of those are my playstyle.

If you use Rallies, which ones do you find useful, which characters are you using them on, and how are you using them? Or are you more like me and find them mostly useless?

[LoneStar]

Rallies are neat. The extra support that units like Annette and Ignatz can provide makes the early game for their respective in-house routes easier, but after a while they fall off. Rally Strength isn't too needed when you have Death Blow, and can farm stat boosters to push your units further over the edge.

It's nice for characters that have rallies as personal skills, so that you don't have to use up a skill slot for it. Annette, or anyone else can still Rally if nothing else that turn, but usually the 30+ damage chip they can provide is better.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Rallies are super important in Maddening early game. They're still good later on, especially as you can slap more Rallies onto someone to make them a Rallybot. But early game it really helps you close the gap between you and the super buffed enemies. In my Maddening run of GD (which I still haven't finished actually), the first time I encountered the Death Knight I decided to bait him out to me since he moves from his tile, and my Byleth only managed to not get doubled because of Ignatz's Rally Speed. Promptly deleted him with a group effort so that I could control the center.

I also like to Rally when I'm doing Warp shenanigans. Helps the warped unit hit thresholds for ORKOing the thing I want removed, or the boss itself.

Edited October 3, 2021 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Barren]

I’m going to pretty much echo what everyone else said about rallies. They are great early on pending on what house you pick, then they become somewhat less useful as you go but can still be viable in part 2. I want to try to see if I can buff Edelgard via rally and special dance to turn her into a super unit for the final boss on maddening. Because I’m pretty sure that she can score some insane damage with a crit chance.

[lenticular]

47 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

It's nice for characters that have rallies as personal skills, so that you don't have to use up a skill slot for it. Annette, or anyone else can still Rally if nothing else that turn, but usually the 30+ damage chip they can provide is better.

Of the characters who have Rallies as their personal skills, Annette is the only one I've found at all useful. Hanneman and Alois both join too late to get nearly as much use from theirs as Annette does from hers. Not to mention that Rally Magic and Rally Luck aren't as useful as Rally Strength in the first place.

14 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Rallies are super important in Maddening early game. They're still good later on, especially as you can slap more Rallies onto someone to make them a Rallybot. But early game it really helps you close the gap between you and the super buffed enemies. In my Maddening run of GD (which I still haven't finished actually), the first time I encountered the Death Knight I decided to bait him out to me since he moves from his tile, and my Byleth only managed to not get doubled because of Ignatz's Rally Speed. Promptly deleted him with a group effort so that I could control the center.

Can't say I've found them important or even particularly useful, even in Maddening early game. I'd usually prefer to do chip damage instead of Rallying. Both can potentially lead to an easy kill for the second unit, but doing chip damage gives experience as well. Yeah there are edge cases like the first Death Knight encounter, but even on Maddening, it's easy to just ignore him and go around him. It's an alternative way to approach the level, for sure, but I don't think it's a better one or an easier one.

I'm also not really a fan of stacking multiple Rallies on a single unit, partly because of how much it compromises their combat performance but also because hardly anyone has multiple worthwhile Rallies that they gain at a reasonable Authority level. I think that Annette with Rally Strength and Speed is the only character who does. I just can't get excited about the likes of Rally Dex, Rally Res and Rally Luck, nor about any Rallies that are only available at S Authority.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

41 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Can't say I've found them important or even particularly useful, even in Maddening early game. I'd usually prefer to do chip damage instead of Rallying. Both can potentially lead to an easy kill for the second unit, but doing chip damage gives experience as well. Yeah there are edge cases like the first Death Knight encounter, but even on Maddening, it's easy to just ignore him and go around him. It's an alternative way to approach the level, for sure, but I don't think it's a better one or an easier one.

I'm also not really a fan of stacking multiple Rallies on a single unit, partly because of how much it compromises their combat performance but also because hardly anyone has multiple worthwhile Rallies that they gain at a reasonable Authority level. I think that Annette with Rally Strength and Speed is the only character who does. I just can't get excited about the likes of Rally Dex, Rally Res and Rally Luck, nor about any Rallies that are only available at S Authority.

Probably just because you just didn't Enemy Phase as much. It's definitely not an "edge case" thing, if you're doing so.

It's certainly faster to clear the Death Knight out, I'm pretty sure. Just a bit riskier.

Rally Luck is mostly useless, but thinking Rally Def/Res is useless is... huh? Even if you don't like playing Enemy Phase, it just seems like common sense that they would be good, considering it's 4 less damage taken per combat, and you're likely to fight multiple enemies in one EP. Rally Dex isn't super duper important, but it does make hit rates better, which can be shaky vs some enemy types such as Pegasus Knights.

Making a unit a Rallybot doesn't really compromise their utility that much, imo. For a unit like Ignatz, who has mediocre combat in general and really no EP to speak of, he will have absolutely nothing to do if his debuffing shots aren't needed on that PP, so may as well give him something to do.

Edited October 3, 2021 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Cysx]

To me (disclaimer, I don't use them at all either, not in 3H anyway), their utility lies in either enabling key ORKOs(duh, I guess), or genuinely boosting the output of an unit that will see more than one encounter before the effect expires, which is why they work particularly well with enemy phase builds, and why dancers and dancing battalions bring said utility up a little.

Another small quality they have is that they make things simpler, as you only have to worry about the performance of one unit instead of two. Rally strength can also make gauntlets much stronger during the early game.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Cysx

[lenticular]

2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Rally Luck is mostly useless, but thinking Rally Def/Res is useless is... huh? Even if you don't like playing Enemy Phase, it just seems like common sense that they would be good, considering it's 4 less damage taken per combat, and you're likely to fight multiple enemies in one EP. Rally Dex isn't super duper important, but it does make hit rates better, which can be shaky vs some enemy types such as Pegasus Knights.

I didn't mention Rally Def at all and I'm not sure why you're bringing it up? It's only available on two units, Gilbert who has no other rallies and Seteth who only gets a second rally at S rank Authority, so it isn't something you can put on a dedicated rallybot. As for Rally Res, I don't care for it mainly because magical attackers aren't as common as physical attackers so it does a whole lot less than Rally Def does. It also seems completely irrelevent for most dedicated enemy phase builds, since they are largely built around never getting hit in the first place. I guess that if you're facing multiple mages and running some sort of res tank then it might be useful? That seems weird and niche, though. What's more, for the rare cases where it does come up, Ward and Pure Water both exist, both do the job better, and don't take up a skill slot.

I'm not saying it's completely useless. Obviously, if I have the choice between 4 points of Res and not having 4 points of Res, then I'll take the 4 points of Res. I just don't find it sufficiently useful to significantly change my opinion of builds that have it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Not really a huge fan of Rallies here, either.

Rally abilities have been badly nerfed from Awakening and Fates in two different ways: one obvious (they're singletarget and range 1 when they used to be multitarget and range 2-3) and one less obvious (Three Houses is a very player-phase-focused game, so rallies last fewer combats than they would in a more enemy-phase-focused one). Now, a skill being nerfed does not mean it is bad, and Rally abilities are not useless... but IMO they're not that great, either.

I think some people overrate them a bit because they'll see things like "Dimitri could not kill this enemy. But then I used Rally Strength on him, and then he could! Clearly Rally Strength is good". But what is often not considered here is the opportunity cost of using the Rally; that is, the character who used it didn't take any other action that turn. And of course, if they had, they likely could have attacked an enemy for chip damage, and thus set up the kill just the same way that the Rally did. Rally has advantages in this situation (this hypothetical second attacker doesn't have to move as far forward) but also disadvantages (they can't move as far forward even if they wanted to, it takes a skill slot, and the action does not grant exp, skill exp, or class exp). At best, it's a very lateral choice.

I do think Rally abilities have some value early, but never a huge amount (I definitely disagree with the characterization of them as "super important"). They're nice to have but far from essential (e.g. it's reasonably common for players to bench Raphael and Ignatz quickly, they don't seem to suffer for this). The longer the game goes on, the more rally abilities get further outclassed by any old archer and mage who can throw damage from higher range, and the higher the cost of keeping the abilities set as you get more and more good options.

For the specific abilities...
-These days I probably have a bit more respect for Rally Charm than the others. While still mostly an earlygame skill it really does let you do something that "just do chip damage" can't, by enabling accurate gambit use. The difference between 40% (actually 32%) and 80% (actually 92%) chance to rattle 2-3 enemies is big.
-Rally Strength has a niche use later in the game if you have an enemy phase build which isn't killing multiple targets but would with +4 str (= +12 damage if you're trying to use criticals), because this allows a greater action economy than Rallies have on player phase. Minor shoutout for Alois stacking it with Rally Luck so you also get +4 hit and +4 crit for those builds.
-Rally Defence would totally have been useful if you got it well before Chapter 12. As is, my dodgetanks are online by then so I basically never care, but I guess it could synergize with a concrete tank well if you're using one.
-Rally Speed... honestly, as much as I think speed is a great stat, really doesn't feel great. I struggle to find uses for this and usually shuffle it off of Ignatz as soon as I have more useful skills. (Sometimes I keep it on Annette a bit longer since at least it's stacking with her personal there.)
-Rally Magic... well I did an all-mage run and I still found it nearly worthless, I think that sums up my opinion of it. I know it has some use for +1 Warp range but that very much feels into "for LTC use only" to me and I don't care about such strategies.
-Rally Res is an inferior Ward (already an incredible niche skill), Rally Dex is just garbage.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Dark Holy Elf

[Anathaco]

Of the rallies, the ones I’ve actually used were Charm and Luck, the latter for a meme build so I’ll concede that it’s still practically useless.

But Dark Holy Elf pretty much beat me to the punch for Rally Charm- the utility of more accurate gambits is something legitimately worthwhile on early game Maddening, considering even Byleth will be having shaky hit rates of about 50-60%. Limited Divine Pulses means that missing a gambit actually has consequences early on, so any chance to mitigate that becomes very helpful. And when you struggle to kill as much as you do on Maddening, having a way to lock down multiple enemies at once becomes key to surviving early game. IMO, Dorothea’s access to it is the best part about her, at least early on- she wasn’t getting into many critical combat situations, but Rally Charm was pretty much always critical for me.

As for the others, I’ve at least gotten some situational uses out of most of them. Rally Strength or Magic are useful for scenarios where the unit with the rally either can’t reach the target or do less than 4 damage to them, for example, which is unlikely, but something I’ve still needed from time to time. Speed is a rally where I’ve basically only used it for early game, but if you want to steal stuff then it can be helpful for that. The others I’ve basically never used.

[Jotari]

Never use em at all. The stats just by and large aren't worth the cost of a units turn. Especially when the game make it so you can't effectively stack rallies. I can see the logic in the OP behind the use of Rally Charm, but really I've never seen fit to use it. Sure hitting with gambits is great and all, but gambit use itself is often situational enough as it is. Lining up another character to be in the right place beside another character, in addition to actually fielding one of the pretty mediocre characters that have rally charm and then devoting a skill slot to it, I'd rather take my gamble on the gambit and then use Divine Pulse to undo the failed attempt. If every unit in the game could do it it could actually make some interesting use of gambits, but as is, nah. I'll throw a rally on a character if a unit's ending their turn without doing anything and happens to have a rally, but it's not something I ever feel the need to strategize.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Rallies are neat. Not as broken as their Fateswakening incarnations, but still situationally useful.

Rally Speed can be nice for getting a "borderline" ally into doubling thresholds, or for dodgetank builds.

Rally Strength increases damage output, especially with brave weapons and arts. It can also increase Attack Speed via weight offset.

Rally Magic similarly aids Mages, but the limited brave options and lack of weight offset make it less impactful.

Rally Dexterity offers welcome marginal boosts to Hit and Crit rates. That said, you can't really know whether it made a difference outside of Divine Pulsing.

Rally Luck is another "hard to tell if it does anything", excepting cases where it turns single-digit crit risk into 0.

Rally Charm is very solid for hitting with gambits (and dealing a little more damage), or for avoiding enemy gambits.

Rally Defense is actually great when applied to a physical tanking build, especially when facing gauntlet classes.

Rally Resistance is similar for magic tanking builds, but those are less useful in general.

Rally Movement comes too late to be relevant. If you have it, though, it can enable reaching the target more readily.

If I had to rank the Rallies, I'd say:

Strength > Speed > Charm > Magic > Defense > Dexterity > Luck > Resistance > Movement

As for Rally users, Annette has the strongest showing, combining innate Strength with Speed at C+. Resistance at D is more niche, while Movement at S is nigh-unobtainable. Ignatz is also of value, giving earlier Speed at D, then Dexterity at C+, but Strength demanding a hefty S. Dorothea/Manuela deserve credit for Charm as early as C, while Alois has the interesting niche of combining Luck with Strength from the get-go. Hubert gets three to his name, but Magic at D and Res at C+, combined with waiting until S for Speed, is pretty lackluster.

EDIT: There is, I will concede, a frustrating irony where many Rally-givers would prefer to be the one receiving said rally. Hanneman, Hubert, and Constance would all appreciate Magic +4 on their powerful spells, while Raphael, Balthus, and Alois would each enjoy Strength +4, especially when striking it out with gauntlets. So for the rally-giver to enjoy said rally, you essentially have to "double up" on similarly-designed units.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Added irony.

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

thinking Rally Def/Res is useless is... huh? Even if you don't like playing Enemy Phase, it just seems like common sense that they would be good, considering it's 4 less damage taken per combat, and you're likely to fight multiple enemies in one EP.

For what it's worth, the only units that get Defense are Seteth and Gilbert, both of whom join midgame. And the latter is route-exclusive.

Anyways, I find it pretty hard to get much use out of rallies in this game, aside from the earlygame. At least, unless you're Annette, who gets to combine strength and speed on one unit (you don't count, Ignatz, because you get one of them at S). Rally Charm gets honorable mention, as it can make for a huge swing in gambit hit rates. Other than that... ehhhh. Using a turn for a stat boost to one ally doesn't really feel worth it most of the time. The cruel irony that most of the units that get to use them would prefer to benefit from the rallies they get doesn't help matters.

[lenticular]

20 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Rally abilities have been badly nerfed from Awakening and Fates in two different ways: one obvious (they're singletarget and range 1 when they used to be multitarget and range 2-3) and one less obvious (Three Houses is a very player-phase-focused game, so rallies last fewer combats than they would in a more enemy-phase-focused one). Now, a skill being nerfed does not mean it is bad, and Rally abilities are not useless... but IMO they're not that great, either.

A third pretty major nerf is moving them from being class skills to character skills. In Fates and Awakening, if you want a specific combination of rallies on a single character, then you can probably pull it off. I tmight take some convoluted class paths or inheritance options, but it's usually possible. In Three Houses, if you want a specific combination, then tough. You get what you're given. And what you're given is usually not very good.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

For what it's worth, the only units that get Defense are Seteth and Gilbert, both of whom join midgame. And the latter is route-exclusive.

SS/VW/AM fans - "Wait, we can't get Rally Defense until halfway through the game?"

CF fans - "You guys are getting Rally Defense?"

5 minutes ago, lenticular said:

A third pretty major nerf is moving them from being class skills to character skills. In Fates and Awakening, if you want a specific combination of rallies on a single character, then you can probably pull it off. I tmight take some convoluted class paths or inheritance options, but it's usually possible. In Three Houses, if you want a specific combination, then tough. You get what you're given. And what you're given is usually not very good.

IMO the tying of Rallies to specific units was kind of a mixed bag for design. It made individual units stand out more, but in turn, it cut down on freedom when it comes to building a character. It would've been neat if there were a way to find or purchase "Rally Scrolls", that could permanently assign a particular rally to a unit's skill set. So I could add Rally Speed to Alois, or introduce Rally Dex to Dorothea. Best of both worlds, perhaps?

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

IMO the tying of Rallies to specific units was kind of a mixed bag for design. It made individual units stand out more, but in turn, it cut down on freedom when it comes to building a character. It would've been neat if there were a way to find or purchase "Rally Scrolls", that could permanently assign a particular rally to a unit's skill set. So I could add Rally Speed to Alois, or introduce Rally Dex to Dorothea. Best of both worlds, perhaps?

I don't think that it's bad design, just that it's one of the contributing factors to making Rallies less powerful. I think that one interesting thing they could have done would have been to give everyone a Rally list, same as everyone gets a white magic list and a black or dark magic list. Some of the lists could have been terrible, of course, but if everyone had at least one Rally and most units had at least two, then the question wouldn't be "who has Rallies?" but rather "which combination of Rallies do I want?"

[SumG]

The Rally abilities are an interesting idea, but I don't think they are as well-executed as they could be.  As mentioned by other people, they have the most utility on Maddening in the early game.  This makes up the majority of Annette's (Blue Lions) and Ignatz's (Golden Deer) utility on their respective house's runs.

The big problem with the Rally abilities to me is that they do not scale over the course of the game.  Picking up 4 SPD when one of your fringe level units has 10 base speed is a huge improvement.  Picking up 4 speed when your unit has 25 base matters much less, particularly when going against enemies with 40+ speed.  Picking up 4 STR is nice when your units are dealing 8-12 damage per hit and you're terrified of facing even 1 extra enemy counterattack.  Picking up 4 STR when your units are dealing 30-50 damage per hit and may be using builds that make enemy counterattacks non-threatening is much less useful.

This is a long way to say that I wonder how useful the Rally abilities would be if they periodically got upgraded over the course of the game by reaching increasingly high proficiency levels of authority.  For example, if Ignatz learned Rally Speed (+4 speed) at D, Rally Speed Lv.2 at B (+8 speed), and Rally Speed Lv.3 at A+ (+12 speed).

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

I don't think that it's bad design, just that it's one of the contributing factors to making Rallies less powerful. I think that one interesting thing they could have done would have been to give everyone a Rally list, same as everyone gets a white magic list and a black or dark magic list. Some of the lists could have been terrible, of course, but if everyone had at least one Rally and most units had at least two, then the question wouldn't be "who has Rallies?" but rather "which combination of Rallies do I want?"

I kind of disagree, insofar as a unit who only gets one Rally isn't going to be useful on that front - at least, not relative to those who get that same Rally, plus another one. I'm fine with not everybody getting Rallies, because I don't think everybody needs to offer that same support utility. At the same time, I would swap some skill placements around (i.e. Ignatz getting Rally Strength at A and Battalion Vantage at S, which is opposite of present), while spreading around some underutilized rallies (i.e. Rally Movement on Hanneman at D, Rally Defense on Constance at A).

4 hours ago, SumG said:

This is a long way to say that I wonder how useful the Rally abilities would be if they periodically got upgraded over the course of the game by reaching increasingly high proficiency levels of authority.  For example, if Ignatz learned Rally Speed (+4 speed) at D, Rally Speed Lv.2 at B (+8 speed), and Rally Speed Lv.3 at A+ (+12 speed).

I know that the failure to scale is often held against Rallies, but I think it's somewhat overstated. Brave weapons and arts, which become more widely available in the late pre-skip onward, tend to magnify the effect of Strength +4. Meanwhile, Hit rates aren't necessarily worse in the early-game, so Rally Dexterity doesn't become particularly worse. And depending on the target unit, Rally Speed can have doubling implications against enemies who aren't Sword or Gauntlet infantry.

If there is a scaling scheme, it should be much gentler than this. +12 Strength would manifest as a whopping 24 damage with brave weapons and arts, or 36 with a single critical hit. But I could see 4/6/8 (or 8/12/16) as being more reasonably balanced.

[lenticular]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I kind of disagree, insofar as a unit who only gets one Rally isn't going to be useful on that front - at least, not relative to those who get that same Rally, plus another one. I'm fine with not everybody getting Rallies, because I don't think everybody needs to offer that same support utility. At the same time, I would swap some skill placements around (i.e. Ignatz getting Rally Strength at A and Battalion Vantage at S, which is opposite of present), while spreading around some underutilized rallies (i.e. Rally Movement on Hanneman at D, Rally Defense on Constance at A).

I don't think it would really be a problem if not everyone is useful. After all, Petra (for instance) is pretty terrible as a magic user but that doesn't mean that she shouldn't learn any spells. For practical purposes, the game would be the same if she had empty spell lists, since pretty much nobody is putting her into magic classes, but I like that the option is there if you want it. It's the sort of thing that makes the game richer by existing even if I never actually use it. (Plus, it allows for the occasional surprise like how spellcaster Dedue is actually briefly used on the Azure Moon speedrun.)

There are also nine different Rallies in the game and nine units on the starting team for each house. That would potentially allow for everyone to get a unique Rally in the early game, even if some of them would later fall off in utility as other units picked up the same Rally later on. As an example for what I'm thinking, let's consider the Golden Deer. Other units could follow a similar pattern, but this is mostly just intended as a proof of concept.

• Byleth: Rally Move (D), Rally Defense (C+), Rally Resistance (B+).
• Claude: Rally Dexterity (D), Rally Charm (C+), Rally Speed (B+).
• Hilda: Rally Charm (D).
• Lorenz: Rally Luck (D), Rally Magic (C+).
• Raphael: Rally Strength (D).
• Lysithea: Rally Magic (D), Rally Speed (C+), Rally Dexterity (B+).
• Ignatz: Rally Speed (D), Rally Dexterity (C+), Rally Strength (B+), Rally Spectrum* (S).
• Leonie: Rally Defense (D), Rally Strength (C+).
• Marianne: Rally Resistance (D), Rally Luck (C+).

* I am imagining Rally Spectrum as replacing all other Rallies rather than stacking with them.

I've given three Rallies to everyone with an authority boon, kept Ignatz as the best Rallier in the house by giving him Rally Spectrum at S (which I don't think would be at all overpowered by the time you get to S rank authority and given that it would still only be single target), put Rally Move as a Byleth exclusive (but made it available much sooner), and made sure that the characters who only get one Rally are at least getting one of the good ones.

[Smokie1437]

Didn't find them very useful. Waste a character's turn (and skill slot) to slightly buff another when said rallybot could just be attacking (or doing whatever else) to begin with never felt like a great trade-off to me. I'm sure there are situations where it can help one-shot an enemy in early game, but on average I'd rather take another strong unit. The one use I could see past early game would maybe be Rally Magic for the long-range nukers Dorothea and Constance, since they can often run into situations of just barely missing a oneshot.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Smokie1437

[Jotari]

Personally ever since they were introduced I've thought rallying should be something that's dedicated to a support class. Ie  only one class can rally, but they're really good at it. That would fit pretty well with a whole "every unit has a rally list". Every unit has a spell list, but only certain classes can use spells. Every unit has a rally list, but only one class chain (plus maybe lord class and Enlightened One) can use rallies. You can also then have skills that increase the range or power of rallies, or let the rallybot rally themselves when using it. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

don't think it would really be a problem if not everyone is useful. After all, Petra (for instance) is pretty terrible as a magic user but that doesn't mean that she shouldn't learn any spells. For practical purposes, the game would be the same if she had empty spell lists, since pretty much nobody is putting her into magic classes, but I like that the option is there if you want it. It's the sort of thing that makes the game richer by existing even if I never actually use it. (Plus, it allows for the occasional surprise like how spellcaster Dedue is actually briefly used on the Azure Moon speedrun.)

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the metaphor is particularly apt. If a unit has no spell list, then raising their Faith or Reason is essentially worthless. However, even if a unit has no Rallies, there is ample motivation to raise their Authority stat. I view it as more like providing Physic support - not all units can do it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

• Byleth: Rally Move (D), Rally Defense (C+), Rally Resistance (B+).
• Claude: Rally Dexterity (D), Rally Charm (C+), Rally Speed (B+).
• Hilda: Rally Charm (D).
• Lorenz: Rally Luck (D), Rally Magic (C+).
• Raphael: Rally Strength (D).
• Lysithea: Rally Magic (D), Rally Speed (C+), Rally Dexterity (B+).
• Ignatz: Rally Speed (D), Rally Dexterity (C+), Rally Strength (B+), Rally Spectrum* (S).
• Leonie: Rally Defense (D), Rally Strength (C+).
• Marianne: Rally Resistance (D), Rally Luck (C+).

The list isn't inherently a bad one, and I can agree with some of the points (how does Lysithea have an Authority boon, yet only get one Authority-related skill? She should probably get a couple Rallies). At the same time, Claude's list is... whew. In conjunction with his current skills, he'll learn 6 Authority-based skills by A-rank, which seems absurdly dense (Ignatz, by comparison, learns 5 by S-rank). And he's already a strong unit, so it's not as though he needs to stand out on the "Rally" front. I think we agree on making Rallies more abundant and/or earlier in units' layouts, but I don't see a comprehensive change as necessary. 

39 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Personally ever since they were introduced I've thought rallying should be something that's dedicated to a support class. Ie  only one class can rally, but they're really good at it. That would fit pretty well with a whole "every unit has a rally list". Every unit has a spell list, but only certain classes can use spells. Every unit has a rally list, but only one class chain (plus maybe lord class and Enlightened One) can use rallies. You can also then have skills that increase the range or power of rallies, or let the rallybot rally themselves when using it. 

"One class chain" comes across as too limiting. Why not allow Rallies in any class, but give them a boost in certain Rally-oriented classes? One I had in mind is called "Color Guard", an Intermediate class that requires C-Authority. It would offer a class skill that boosts rally range (target 1 ally up to range Cha/4), with Rally Spectrum (+1/+2 in each stat) as a mastery skill.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the metaphor is particularly apt. If a unit has no spell list, then raising their Faith or Reason is essentially worthless. However, even if a unit has no Rallies, there is ample motivation to raise their Authority stat. I view it as more like providing Physic support - not all units can do it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The list isn't inherently a bad one, and I can agree with some of the points (how does Lysithea have an Authority boon, yet only get one Authority-related skill? She should probably get a couple Rallies). At the same time, Claude's list is... whew. In conjunction with his current skills, he'll learn 6 Authority-based skills by A-rank, which seems absurdly dense (Ignatz, by comparison, learns 5 by S-rank). And he's already a strong unit, so it's not as though he needs to stand out on the "Rally" front. I think we agree on making Rallies more abundant and/or earlier in units' layouts, but I don't see a comprehensive change as necessary. 

"One class chain" comes across as too limiting. Why not allow Rallies in any class, but give them a boost in certain Rally-oriented classes? One I had in mind is called "Color Guard", an Intermediate class that requires C-Authority. It would offer a class skill that boosts rally range (target 1 ally up to range Cha/4), with Rally Spectrum (+1/+2 in each stat) as a mastery skill.

One could say the same thing about magic, why not let every unit  (especially Emperor) use it? Instead they went with two (sort of three) class chains that are pretty indistinguishable at most levels.

[lenticular]

24 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The list isn't inherently a bad one, and I can agree with some of the points (how does Lysithea have an Authority boon, yet only get one Authority-related skill? She should probably get a couple Rallies). At the same time, Claude's list is... whew. In conjunction with his current skills, he'll learn 6 Authority-based skills by A-rank, which seems absurdly dense (Ignatz, by comparison, learns 5 by S-rank). And he's already a strong unit, so it's not as though he needs to stand out on the "Rally" front. I think we agree on making Rallies more abundant and/or earlier in units' layouts, but I don't see a comprehensive change as necessary. 

That's a fair criticism, but if I had my druthers then all the other authority skills would see a big shake-up as well. Model Leader and Defensive Tactics are both basically trash and I don't think anything of significant value would be lost by getting rid of them entirely. Then there are the Battalion [Whatever] skills which are, frankly, a mess. They mostly fall into either "allows you to break the game" or "completely worthless" depending on how you're using them, without covering much of the in-between ground. I also dislike the fiddly micromanagement of "I want to fully replenish all of my battalions except for the one that Dimitri is using" after every battle. I suspect this will be somewhat controversial, but I'd be in favour of getting rid of the Battalion skills entirely. And while we're at it, can we also add a bit of accuracy with gambits to the "Authority Lv n" skills to make them less terrible?

[SumG]

14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

f there is a scaling scheme, it should be much gentler than this. +12 Strength would manifest as a whopping 24 damage with brave weapons and arts, or 36 with a single critical hit. But I could see 4/6/8 (or 8/12/16) as being more reasonably balanced.

That's a fair opinion.  I merely took a stab at some numbers that would tempt me into using the abilities; they certainly would need to be playtested/balanced.

That said, by the endgame I do think the benefits have to be pretty darn substantial in order to justify sacrificing the entire turn of one of your units in order to use a Rally ability.  By end game, most units you're liable to be using will have some means of either attack a normal enemy in such a way as they can't be countered (3+ range magic, 3+ range archery, Combat Arts), can kill a large portion of enemies prior to counterattacks (Swift Strikes, FIF, Brave weapons), or can attack while having enough evasion to maintain safety (dodgetanks).  Even a middling unit should be able to attack for 20-30 damage safely on player phase (otherwise why are you using them), while a good unit will be more like 40+.  To sacrifice that much damage on player phase, the benefits of a Rally has to be pretty darn large.

When I threw out those numbers, I was initially thinking of the speed stat.  On Maddening, the speed stat of enemies scales so quickly and is so much higher than player units in the same classes that a dramatic stat increase is necessary in order to have any impact at all.  And there isn't any reason that the different stat categories could have different sized benefits.  As it is, Rally Luck is already a +8 instead of +4.  There's no reason Rally Speed couldn't go up to +12 while Rally Strength might be capped at +8.

I also think that incentivizing Rally based builds could introduce an interesting bit of tension in terms of the routing some units might take in terms of class progression.  Bigger Rallies would incentivize rushing Authority proficiency, but Authority is not needed as a prerequisite for any class qualification.  Should a unit rush Authority (getting access to really strong Rallies in the midgame) at the expense of not getting into an Advanced/Master tier class until a few levels later?  Additionally, the units which have the best suite of Rally abilities already have limited things to do in terms of learning weapon proficiency (Annette really only needs Reason and enough Faith to get Heal unless you're doing Magic Wyvern, Ignatz really only need Bows); it would be nice to give them some extra benefit to training up authority aside from just being a tier ahead of the rest of the army in terms of battalions that can be equipped.