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Just looking for some advice on doing an ironman run of Conquest on Hard mode. (In case you didn't know, ironman means no resetting under any circumstances, and if I get a game over due to my avatar dying or me failing a specific map objective, the run is over.)

 

Examples of things I'm looking for:

-Avatar builds

-Which characters are worth using and investing into

-How to deal with death/permanent injury

-Utilizing DLC items (only the free stuff like the Exalt and Hero Brands and the gifts from Anna)

-General strategy

-Good couples

-Building support

-When to recruit children

-Best generic units to capture and where to find them

-Forging

Edited by MagicalAlbino

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I don't think much of my advice changes too much with it being an ironman.

 

3 hours ago, MagicalAlbino said:

 

-Avatar builds

Going with Luck Bane is always a safe bet thanks to the Goddess icon you get in the pre-choice chapters. As for Boon, whichever you prefer, personally I like Speed Boon, Defense Boon might be nice since you are ironmanning, Magic boon is one of the more interesting options, and strength works fine as well. For Talent, pick one that you want, but would otherwise have a hard time getting on them, or their spouse. Its hard to make a bad Corrin.

 

3 hours ago, MagicalAlbino said:

 

-Which characters are worth using and investing into

You can get almost anyone to work if you want to. Arthur is probably a bad idea on an ironman, as his personal skill leaves him particularly vulnerable to crits (at least until he gets his son as a sidekick). Niles is a better idea, as his personal gives you access to recruiting generic enemies, which are particularly useful on ironmans.

 

5 hours ago, MagicalAlbino said:

 

-How to deal with death/permanent injury

If the plan is to ironman it, then I guess you have to find a way too make do without whoever dies. Having a Generic or two in the prison, or a child paralogue ready to get a replacement is probably a good idea to have ready.

 

3 hours ago, MagicalAlbino said:

 

-Utilizing DLC items (only the free stuff like the Exalt and Hero Brands and the gifts from Anna)

Sorry, I haven't really used them enough to have good advice to give. Plus while I am thinking about it

On 10/8/2021 at 2:39 PM, MagicalAlbino said:

-Forging

On 10/8/2021 at 2:39 PM, MagicalAlbino said:

 

-Building support

I don't have much extra advice to give on these two topics either.

 

3 hours ago, MagicalAlbino said:

 

-General strategy

Having an idea of where you will use your entrap, and rescue staff uses is a good idea. Figuring out which of the Level 15 promoted skills you want to go for, and which you want to shoot for as early as chapter 23, and which can wait for like chapter 25 is something else to consider. Sorry for being so vague here, but there are plenty of ways you can play Conquest, and what resources you still have available will make a big difference.

 

3 hours ago, MagicalAlbino said:

 

-When to recruit children

For a ironman run, it might be a good idea to save some for lategame replacements, as they get items to scale their level based on how far into the game you are. Although Ignacius's paralogue should not be done lategame, and the loot available in Ophilia's are so good, that doing it earlier might be a good idea as well.

 

3 hours ago, MagicalAlbino said:

 

-Best generic units to capture and where to find them

This thread might help with that

 

 

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On 10/8/2021 at 4:39 PM, MagicalAlbino said:

-Which characters are worth using and investing into

I would say Effie and the royals are ones you cannot go wrong with. On the other hand, I'd avoid Leo's retainers and Arthur like the plague, because they fucking SUCK. Same for Charlotte and Nyx.

On 10/8/2021 at 4:39 PM, MagicalAlbino said:

-When to recruit children

I'd generally say earlier is better. Especially for Ignatius, as his paralogue is one that is poorly designed for lategame.

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd avoid Leo's retainers and Arthur like the plague, because they fucking SUCK. Same for Charlotte and Nyx.

Hey now, while the majority of them are suboptimal, (and I know little about Nyx), all of them have major upsides, especially Leo's retainers.

Niles by himself is admittedly an underwhelming unit, but thanks to Capture, he gives you access to a bunch of phenomenal units- Haitaka, Rallyman, Kumagera, Gazak, etc. There are so many useful units you only have access to if you use Niles. He isn't going to carry you by any stretch of the imagination, but he gives you a lot of fun, strong tools to play with. Plus, if you lose a good unit from your team, Niles can always capture a strong enemy to fill in the gaps, lessening the blow.

I admittedly don't know much about Odin, but he's not so much bad as unusual for a mage. There are a lot of interesting things you can do with him, and some of them are extremely potent and unique to him. He needs investment, to be sure,  but he can be really fun if you so choose to use him. Plus, you're probably going to want to use him to get Ophelia regardless, and he's worth a deployment slot just for her.

Charlotte can be an absolutely phenomenal unit-Monstrously powerful offensively, but lacking in defense and can have hit-rate problems- The latter of which can be overcome through pair-up, tonics and rallies, or removal of Gamble from her skill pool. Plus, her skill and luck growths are pretty good. She can do ridiculous amounts of damage and reach fantastically high crit rates, and won't always need to use high might-low hit weapons to get the job done, and can be extremely nice to have for attack stance.

Arthur is not a very good unit, but he still has some decent uses-Reduction of enemy crit avoid can be extremely nice for some potent crit-based units like Ophelia, Odin or Charlotte, good offensive growths, decent defensive growths, mostly tolerable bases. Plus, his kid's very good. Arthur's not fantastic, especially for an ironman, but he's a far throw from the bubonic plague.

 

There is no reason not to use any these units if you're interested in seeing what they can do-None of them are truly that horrible and show major upsides or fulfill useful niches. Things will go wrong in an ironman, so you shouldn't feel like you have to avoid these units simply because they're not Camilla.

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On 10/8/2021 at 11:39 AM, MagicalAlbino said:

-Which characters are worth using and investing into

You'll want an early staffbot (whether it's your servant or Elise will depend on your roster).  Chapter 10 is a gigantic pain in the neck, and Freeze will help your sanity.  So will general healing, because who thought paired-up ninjas was a good idea?

Shura makes a decent staffbot with a side of making ninjas unhappy.

Camilla with an early reclass and an Arms Scroll for lances trivializes Chapter 19 (or whichever one is the horribly contrived kitsune chapter).

Bow Knights make ninja-heavy chapters slightly less annoying.

On 10/8/2021 at 11:39 AM, MagicalAlbino said:

-Best generic units to capture and where to find them

Haitaka is an early boss and serves as a pretty good filler unit until your roster properly fills out.

Grab an apothecary in Chapter 12, they can get more stats out of tonics, and you will be using a lot of those!

An early ninja might be useful if your units are struggling to deal damage.

On 10/8/2021 at 11:39 AM, MagicalAlbino said:

-Forging

Math it out.  Take a peek at a chapter, see if your units deal enough damage, and if they don't, go back and tonic/forge as necessary.  Cooking may help, but it's somewhat random.

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On 10/11/2021 at 9:30 PM, Benice said:

Arthur is not a very good unit, but he still has some decent uses-Reduction of enemy crit avoid can be extremely nice for some potent crit-based units like Ophelia, Odin or Charlotte, good offensive growths, decent defensive growths, mostly tolerable bases. Plus, his kid's very good. Arthur's not fantastic, especially for an ironman, but he's a far throw from the bubonic plague.

Okay then... answer me this: when in the name of Anankos would reducing enemy crit evade really prove worthwhile??? Because honestly, trying to find a use for that is like trying to find a use for tits on a bull, given that most enemy units have low crit evade to begin with, especially in the lategame when a good chunk of them nuke what little crit evade they have with silvers (FYI, crit evade in Fates is half luck). Also, I'd prefer a more reliable strategy than "pray for a critical hit", as that is not as effective in Fates as it was in prior games. So sorry, but this sounds like you're blatantly grasping at straws (as in, desperately trying to say ANYTHING to make Arthur not look as bad as he is).

On 10/11/2021 at 9:30 PM, Benice said:

Charlotte can be an absolutely phenomenal unit-Monstrously powerful offensively, but lacking in defense and can have hit-rate problems- The latter of which can be overcome through pair-up, tonics and rallies, or removal of Gamble from her skill pool. Plus, her skill and luck growths are pretty good. She can do ridiculous amounts of damage and reach fantastically high crit rates, and won't always need to use high might-low hit weapons to get the job done, and can be extremely nice to have for attack stance.

And at the same time, you're ignoring the Mondoragon in the room, that being she comes in underleveled with poor base stats. That's a really shitty joining situation, to be sure, especially when it's not too long after her joining that the game ditches unpromoted units entirely. I don't know about you, but an unreliable glass cannon is not exactly what I'd want - or recommend - in an ironman.

On 10/11/2021 at 9:30 PM, Benice said:

I admittedly don't know much about Odin, but he's not so much bad as unusual for a mage. There are a lot of interesting things you can do with him, and some of them are extremely potent and unique to him. He needs investment, to be sure,  but he can be really fun if you so choose to use him. Plus, you're probably going to want to use him to get Ophelia regardless, and he's worth a deployment slot just for her.

That's a very nice way of saying he sucks; if the only use a unit has is their child, that's a very damning indictment. And frankly, I could say the same of Arthur.

On 10/11/2021 at 9:30 PM, Benice said:

Niles by himself is admittedly an underwhelming unit, but thanks to Capture, he gives you access to a bunch of phenomenal units- Haitaka, Rallyman, Kumagera, Gazak, etc. There are so many useful units you only have access to if you use Niles. He isn't going to carry you by any stretch of the imagination, but he gives you a lot of fun, strong tools to play with. Plus, if you lose a good unit from your team, Niles can always capture a strong enemy to fill in the gaps, lessening the blow.

I know personal experience means nothing, but I find recommending Niles to be a hard sell when I have NEVER gotten good results from him. Ya ask me, the best thing you can do with Niles is use him long enough to get Nina, then bench him permanently. Capture doesn't do nearly enough to redeem him.

On 10/8/2021 at 4:39 PM, MagicalAlbino said:

-Forging

Forging effective weapons (Armorslayer, etc.) might be useful, as they get +6 extra damage against their relevant targets at +1.

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4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay then... answer me this: when in the name of Anankos would reducing enemy crit evade really prove worthwhile???

Gosh, I hate it when I have an additional 15 crit on enemy units.

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, I'd prefer a more reliable strategy than "pray for a critical hit", as that is not as effective in Fates as it was in prior games. 

Indeed, reliance on that is not a good plan-but having it as a back-up is extremely nice to have at times.

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

. So sorry, but this sounds like you're blatantly grasping at straws (as in, desperately trying to say ANYTHING to make Arthur not look as bad as he is).

Indeed, Arthur sucks, you are correct. I don't disagree with your assessment at all, in fact. However, my argument is not "Arthur good", when I don't believe that-I simply don't think that one should avoid a unit on an ironman just because they're bad, and it is not fair to Arthur to say that he's useless when he can bring something to the team. Everyone plays differently and selects units differently-If one is aiming to play optimal, Arthur is definitely good to stay away from. If, instead, you want to try units you've never used before or enjoy using bad ones, Arthur's not nearly so bad to deserve being cast into a pit.

6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And at the same time, you're ignoring the Mondoragon in the room, that being she comes in underleveled with poor base stats.

She's at a high enough level to be able to instantly promote if absolutely necessary, and her low joining level allows for quicker levels. And beyond that, she's only one or two points of speed away from doubling all the cavaliers and wyvern knights in her join chapter-Meaning that with a Speed Tonic and/or a defensive stance, she can reliably double, putting to use her good base strength to put out some pretty solid damage, and she only gets better thanks to her fantastic growths. Chapter 14 is a similar case for her, with lots of enemies at 11-12 speed that are ripe for doubling.

You are indeed correct that Charlotte has a very small window of time to pick up the momentum she needs to contribute, but with some investment, she can turn out phenomenally. There are definitely better units than her, but again, she can do a lot of really good things, even if at a bit of a higher cost.

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but an unreliable glass cannon is not exactly what I'd want - or recommend - in an ironman.

I already addressed the reliability part, and while being harder to kill is nice for an ironman, Conquest is extremely player-phase based, so it doesn't particularly matter that Charlotte can't tank very well since that's not her job. Not to mention, due in part to HP+5, she has a big enough HP pool to occasionally survive a little bit of punishment if push comes to shove.

18 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's a very nice way of saying he sucks; if the only use a unit has is their child, that's a very damning indictment.

That's not what I said, though. I said that he's a decently high investment and high reward unit who is extremely unique and can be worth using simply for how much fun it can be to mess around with his unusual stat spread and class pool. The fact that Ophelia is so good just makes Odin better- Most people would want to deploy him regardless, so you have the opportunity to use him to make him good while he's a shoo-in for a deployment slot.

24 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I know personal experience means nothing, but I find recommending Niles to be a hard sell when I have NEVER gotten good results from him.

One doesn't need to get good results from Niles in order to have him be insanely useful-you only need to do one damage to be able to capture. He can become good, (apparently) but even if he doesn't, you can essentially attribute every capturable unit's abilities to him, but I'll expand on that below.

26 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Capture doesn't do nearly enough to redeem him.

I disagree with this, especially in the case of an ironman. Having semi-disposable units is an incredible boon, especially when they join at an appropriate level. Beyond that, there are so many fantastic units to nab- Haitaka is ridiculous from start 'til finish, Kumagera is quite good for a while, Gazak is phenomenal, Rallyman is always a great boon, Zhara is good, and then there are the slew of generics you can pick up who can do extremely well with access to some classes you wouldn't otherwise be able to easily get. Niles himself may not pull his weight, but he has a knack for getting other people to do it for him.

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On 10/15/2021 at 7:13 PM, Benice said:

Gosh, I hate it when I have an additional 15 crit on enemy units.

Spoken like you didn't even so much as bother to read - or even put an iota of thought into - everything after what you quoted. Otherwise, you'd know why Arthur's personal doesn't affect enemy units that much. Ergo, -15 crit evade for enemy units is a lot better in theory than in actual practice. Just to prove my point, here are Cev scores for enemies in chapter 26 on hard mode:

Spoiler

Heroes: 2/7
Maids: 4 (All of them use silver daggers)
Sorcerers: 3/8 
Generals:2/7
Berserkers/Faceless/Stoneborn/Hans: 0
Iago: 11

Only 1 enemy out of 56 does NOT have a Cev score in the single digits... and it's the boss, who has a high crit chance. And note that this is in the lategame, when something like this is, in theory, supposed to be at its most useful. If it's barely doing anything then, then that says nothing good about it...

 

On 10/15/2021 at 7:13 PM, Benice said:

Indeed, Arthur sucks, you are correct. I don't disagree with your assessment at all, in fact. However, my argument is not "Arthur good", when I don't believe that-I simply don't think that one should avoid a unit on an ironman just because they're bad, and it is not fair to Arthur to say that he's useless when he can bring something to the team. Everyone plays differently and selects units differently-If one is aiming to play optimal, Arthur is definitely good to stay away from. If, instead, you want to try units you've never used before or enjoy using bad ones, Arthur's not nearly so bad to deserve being cast into a pit.

Even so, the risk of using Arthur far outweighs the reward, especially in an ironman run.

On 10/15/2021 at 7:13 PM, Benice said:

She's at a high enough level to be able to instantly promote if absolutely necessary, and her low joining level allows for quicker levels. And beyond that, she's only one or two points of speed away from doubling all the cavaliers and wyvern knights in her join chapter-Meaning that with a Speed Tonic and/or a defensive stance, she can reliably double, putting to use her good base strength to put out some pretty solid damage, and she only gets better thanks to her fantastic growths. Chapter 14 is a similar case for her, with lots of enemies at 11-12 speed that are ripe for doubling.

You are indeed correct that Charlotte has a very small window of time to pick up the momentum she needs to contribute, but with some investment, she can turn out phenomenally. There are definitely better units than her, but again, she can do a lot of really good things, even if at a bit of a higher cost.

Fantastic growths only really help you if you can actually leverage them (and if you don't start in a massive hole, which Charlotte does). And her initial unreliability is a huge turnoff, as it means she needs some serious luck if she's to even have a ghost of a chance to catch up. And the fact that her window of opportunity to catch up is rather narrow only makes things worse. As things are, I cannot see Charlotte being useful without either using Boo Camp, which benefits everyone else, or making everyone else worse because I have to spoonfeed her as many kills as possible to get her caught up. And I'm not sure the payoff outweighs the cost. Because of all these, and the fact that fighters are at their nadir in Fates, I find it hard to justify her presence or Arthur's on a team as anything other than a pair-up bot.

On 10/15/2021 at 7:13 PM, Benice said:

That's not what I said, though. I said that he's a decently high investment and high reward unit who is extremely unique and can be worth using simply for how much fun it can be to mess around with his unusual stat spread and class pool. The fact that Ophelia is so good just makes Odin better- Most people would want to deploy him regardless, so you have the opportunity to use him to make him good while he's a shoo-in for a deployment slot.

"Unique", huh? Well...

such-a-killjoy

Frankly, I'd rather recommend someone who can actually do the things I expect them to do without much investment needed than a high-investment unit who is likely to be inferior at what he does relative to someone else who doesn't need as much investment.

On 10/15/2021 at 7:13 PM, Benice said:

One doesn't need to get good results from Niles in order to have him be insanely useful-you only need to do one damage to be able to capture. He can become good, (apparently) but even if he doesn't, you can essentially attribute every capturable unit's abilities to him, but I'll expand on that below.

I wouldn't mind so much if he was good-ish, but as is, it feels like a half-hearted and half-assed attempt to redeem a lame unit. He's got great speed, but that's pretty much it, and high speed alone does not mean much when you suck pretty much everywhere else, which makes you a liability.

On 10/15/2021 at 7:13 PM, Benice said:

I disagree with this, especially in the case of an ironman. Having semi-disposable units is an incredible boon, especially when they join at an appropriate level. Beyond that, there are so many fantastic units to nab- Haitaka is ridiculous from start 'til finish, Kumagera is quite good for a while, Gazak is phenomenal, Rallyman is always a great boon, Zhara is good, and then there are the slew of generics you can pick up who can do extremely well with access to some classes you wouldn't otherwise be able to easily get. Niles himself may not pull his weight, but he has a knack for getting other people to do it for him. 

Well, unfortunately, most of those are assuming you use Niles for the long term - and in my book, he has trouble justifying his presence in the SHORT term. Besides that, I'd consider the fact that they don't get supports to be a major disadvantage that makes them a hard sell. Especially Gazak and Kumagera, who have the misfortune of being in bad classes.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Spoken like you didn't even so much as bother to read - or even put an iota of thought into - everything after what you quoted. Otherwise, you'd know why Arthur's personal doesn't affect enemy units that much. Ergo, -15 crit evade for enemy units is a lot better in theory than in actual practice. Just to prove my point, here are Cev scores for enemies in chapter 26 on hard mode:

  Reveal hidden contents

Heroes: 2/7
Maids: 4 (All of them use silver daggers)
Sorcerers: 3/8 
Generals:2/7
Berserkers/Faceless/Stoneborn/Hans: 0
Iago: 11

Only 1 enemy out of 56 does NOT have a Cev score in the single digits... and it's the boss, who has a high crit chance. And note that this is in the lategame, when something like this is, in theory, supposed to be at its most useful. If it's barely doing anything then, then that says nothing good about it...

 

It's a small bonus, but not an entirely insignificant one-Arthur at 15/10 with a killer axe, for example, would have approximately 60 crit on every enemy, as opposed to ~55, and while that is a small difference numerically, that's 5% chance more of having an OHKO. Not to mention, plenty of classes that appear prior to 26, such as Master of Arms, (~8 CEV) Kinshi/Falcon knights, (~10 CEV), Basara, (~10 CEV), Swordmasters, (~10 paired-up, 8 otherwise), not to mention that most bosses have 12 or so CEV-With all of the skills lategame bosses have, the extra 12-ish% chance to kill isn't tiny. A lot of really good units, such as Ophelia, a well-trained Sniper Mozu/Brave weapon user and generics like Gazak can become even stronger thanks to the extra bonuses brought by Arthur.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Even so, the risk of using Arthur far outweighs the reward, especially in an ironman run.

Well, that's the choice for OP to make, isn't it? His skill is not without its utility, so I don't think Arthur is a must-avoid if one likes his personality or doesn't mind a little high-stakes gambling.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

and if you don't start in a massive hole, which Charlotte does.

She can double quite reliably from the get-go with a speed tonic, and does really big damage anyways; take chapter 14, for example. Even if she can't double quite yet, she does a metric ton of damage to the foe, and can quite easily reach very high crit rates on them- 20 crit from unmask + 25 from Killer Axe + 5 from skill stat, + potentially 10 more from Gamble if you want to keep it on. Without, that's 50 crit rate on 20 enemies in that chapter, and 60 crit with-14 of whom she has WTA against. She can also swap to Iron axe, retaining a very respectable 25-35 crit, depending on gamble. Furthermore, she also gets +4 damage from Unmask, meaning that she has 28 attack against each female enemy and drains over half the health bar for quite the majority of 'em*. That's also assuming base level, with no pair-up or tonics. Plus, since most enemies are level 14, she will gain no small amount of experience.

*She can also OHKO the Shrine maidens with a steel axe, although her hit rate will be somewhat suspect.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

as it means she needs some serious luck if she's to even have a ghost of a chance to catch up.

With three levels, she will almost certainly reach 15 speed, allowing her to get to 17 with a tonic, which is good enough to double six enemies in chapter 15; with a pair-up granting her one speed or a somewhat lucky fourth level, she can bump that up to 20 enemies, with only the ninjas and boss avoiding that. With a defensive stance pair-up that grants at least one strength and one speed, she will ORKO every lancer in the level assuming the moderate investment of three average levels and a speed tonic. She can also do it by herself with both strength and speed tonics active.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because of all these, and the fact that fighters are at their nadir in Fates

I hard disagree with the notion that Fighters are at their worst- Berserker is a fantastic class, and while facing WTD against tomes doesn't matter too much since they really shouldn't be fighting mages with their nonexistant res, their WTA against Shurikens can be very nice.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

such-a-killjoy

Odin's unique stat spread allows him to do different things than being simply "better" or "worse" versions of other units-Unlike Noah or Treck simply being worse Alan or Lance, Odin does different things than Ophelia or Nyx. Some of them are really, really fun as well, and it's, in my opinion, better to lose units but try things on an ironman as opposed to simply playing optimally-part of the fun of ironmanning is using units in ways that you normally wouldn't, and Odin's comparatively decent durability with Nosferatu can make him an asset on an ironman in ways that more "typical" mages can't.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, unfortunately, most of those are assuming you use Niles for the long term - and in my book, he has trouble justifying his presence in the SHORT term.

Again, Niles only has to deal one damage to capture someone. His speed also lets him do it twice. At the very worst, Niles is a liability with a huge upside of being able to fill your roster out with new units, but at the best of times, he can actually pull his weight quite well in addition to Capture utility.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Besides that, I'd consider the fact that they don't get supports to be a major disadvantage that makes them a hard sell.

With the level of power some of these units have, they simply don't need supports. Plus, a perhaps slightly inferior unit is better than an empty deployment slot-And these units continually get better as you go on. Generic only runs are possible, even on Lunatic, so it's not like they're unviable at all.

(Sorry to drag you into this, @Saint Rubenio, but would you mind posting some pictures of funni generics?)

Regardless, @MagicalAlbino, as you can tell from our debate, you can use pretty much any unit you want-Good, bad, generic or normal. Whatever seems fun for you, you should try! The only real thing worth mentioning in terms of units is that this is generally a pretty good game for prepromotes, so you needn't shy away from using them when you want a little boost.

Edited by Benice

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7 minutes ago, Benice said:

Sorry to drag you into this, @Saint Rubenio, but would you mind posting some pictures of funni generics?)

I can't comfortably post pictures from my phone, but let me present a case for generics, since I love them so much.

In Conquest early generics are lackluster, I'll admit. Their stats aren't great and their skills, unremarkable. The later prepromotes, however? There's some insane stuff there in lunatic difficulty, and I'm not just talking about Rallyman here. He is amazing, but he's not the only one.

The adventurers in the boat map, for instance. They're straight up better than Shura, and I love Shura! Better weapon ranks, samey stats and seal defense and strength, which is basically a better version of Shura's personal. Pass pegasus from Hinoka's map break the finale in half. The one master ninja in Ninja Hell with Poison Strike and Grisly Wound deals an insane amount of damage just from entering combat. Those are just a few examples of generics who not only pull their weighr, but might even be worth deploying over more than a few proper characters.

And this isn't even bringing up the bosses. Haitaka is absolutely amazing, Kumagera eats ninjas in Ninja Hell for breakfast, Nichol is Camilla Lite (which is a pretty great thing to be when Camilla is basically the best unit in the game), Gazak's defense and offense are both ridiculous, Zhara is a merc with Pass which is neat... None of these people even need personal skills - their unique skillsets ARE their personals!

Honestly, the only real flaw that comes from their status as captured units is no supports, and I've found it is not a flaw that holds them back that much. Basic pair up bonuses are enough 99% of the time, in my experience. You don't need supports for +1 move, for instance.

Now, I'm no pro. I'm not about to get in an argument or pretend I know the objective truths here. But, since I was summoned, I figured I'd shill generics a bit. I really do love them, they're one of my favorite things about Fates.

One last bit of shameless self-promotion, if you'll excuse me. My first (and so far only) Rev run was generics only. I did it as a joke at first, to spite the game for pointlessly killing off one of my favorite characters. However, in so doing, I accidentally fixed the route's infamously awful unit balance. The stats of generics in that route are on point (barring luck), unlike real units who either suck something terrible (not Shura and the royals) or are hideously overpowered (Shura and the royals). I honestly believe I improved my experience by using only generics.

If you want, you can check out most of that run's army here. I'd post proper images, but I'm on my phone in bed, haha. If you pause, you can see most of the army in the video.

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11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fantastic growths only really help you if you can actually leverage them (and if you don't start in a massive hole, which Charlotte does). And her initial unreliability is a huge turnoff, as it means she needs some serious luck if she's to even have a ghost of a chance to catch up. And the fact that her window of opportunity to catch up is rather narrow only makes things worse. As things are, I cannot see Charlotte being useful without either using Boo Camp, which benefits everyone else, or making everyone else worse because I have to spoonfeed her as many kills as possible to get her caught up. And I'm not sure the payoff outweighs the cost. Because of all these, and the fact that fighters are at their nadir in Fates, I find it hard to justify her presence or Arthur's on a team as anything other than a pair-up bot.

Getting Charlotte caught up isn't as hard as you are acting, especially when she gets a +4 damage and +20 crit against every promoted enemy in her first two chapter (barring one in each) thanks to her personal skill. Once you catch her up she is a combat monster that is well worth the effort, and your weird insistence that 60+ health makes a unit a glass canon is as nonsensical as ever.

 

On 10/15/2021 at 4:25 PM, Shadow Mir said:

That's a very nice way of saying he sucks; if the only use a unit has is their child, that's a very damning indictment. And frankly, I could say the same of Arthur.

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

"Unique", huh? Well...

such-a-killjoy

Frankly, I'd rather recommend someone who can actually do the things I expect them to do without much investment needed than a high-investment unit who is likely to be inferior at what he does relative to someone else who doesn't need as much investment.

Odin is about the only unit with the stats to Nosferatu tank in this game, and its an incredibly useful trait. Just because a unit has a unique trait, doesn't mean they are garbage.

 

On 10/15/2021 at 4:25 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I know personal experience means nothing, but I find recommending Niles to be a hard sell when I have NEVER gotten good results from him. Ya ask me, the best thing you can do with Niles is use him long enough to get Nina, then bench him permanently. Capture doesn't do nearly enough to redeem him.

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I wouldn't mind so much if he was good-ish, but as is, it feels like a half-hearted and half-assed attempt to redeem a lame unit. He's got great speed, but that's pretty much it, and high speed alone does not mean much when you suck pretty much everywhere else, which makes you a liability.

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, unfortunately, most of those are assuming you use Niles for the long term - and in my book, he has trouble justifying his presence in the SHORT term. Besides that, I'd consider the fact that they don't get supports to be a major disadvantage that makes them a hard sell. Especially Gazak and Kumagera, who have the misfortune of being in bad classes.

Having used Niles into the lategame on multiple runs, even on Lunatic, take Shadow Mir's complaint with a massive grain of salt. Also Gazak is great, Shadow Mir just hates Axes in this series.

 

On 10/11/2021 at 11:24 AM, Shadow Mir said:

they fucking SUCK. Same for Charlotte and Nyx.

Nyx is fine, nothing too special, but it you want a traditional earlygame mage, she is your option.

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14 hours ago, Benice said:

It's a small bonus, but not an entirely insignificant one-Arthur at 15/10 with a killer axe, for example, would have approximately 60 crit on every enemy, as opposed to ~55, and while that is a small difference numerically, that's 5% chance more of having an OHKO. Not to mention, plenty of classes that appear prior to 26, such as Master of Arms, (~8 CEV) Kinshi/Falcon knights, (~10 CEV), Basara, (~10 CEV), Swordmasters, (~10 paired-up, 8 otherwise), not to mention that most bosses have 12 or so CEV-With all of the skills lategame bosses have, the extra 12-ish% chance to kill isn't tiny. A lot of really good units, such as Ophelia, a well-trained Sniper Mozu/Brave weapon user and generics like Gazak can become even stronger thanks to the extra bonuses brought by Arthur.

The thing is, I wouldn't know if having him there made a difference or not when enemies oft have low enough CEv that my units have listed crit on them without the need for weapons with boosted crit, short of using weapons that just cannot crit period. And frankly, he's so much of a liability that I wouldn't consider a tiny boost to crit chance anywhere near enough to make up for it, let alone worth it. The few exceptions to this are the beast units that appear in all of one chapter, and Spear Masters, which aren't the most common of enemy classes. Also, I'd say brave weapons are at their worst in this game. Iron level might with much less accuracy at that point? Forget it.

14 hours ago, Benice said:

Well, that's the choice for OP to make, isn't it? His skill is not without its utility, so I don't think Arthur is a must-avoid if one likes his personality or doesn't mind a little high-stakes gambling.

I agree with you that it's ultimately a judgment call for the OP to make, but I'd still say that the utility it has is about as useful as tits on a bull. In my humble opinion, you need a really major advantage to make up for it when you have a downside as odious as being vulnerable to critical hits - and Arthur fails that miserably. If I really wanted to gamble, I'd rather play something like a poker game. 

14 hours ago, Benice said:

I hard disagree with the notion that Fighters are at their worst- Berserker is a fantastic class, and while facing WTD against tomes doesn't matter too much since they really shouldn't be fighting mages with their nonexistant res, their WTA against Shurikens can be very nice.

Sure - if you ignore the fact that any situation with a Berserker is a very volatile one with extremely high risk and very little reward, that is. Which is to say, their crit evade penalty is an automatic dealbreaker. Any advantages they might have offered are not worth something that odious, especially when I can get those advantages from other units and classes that don't have that crippling a downside attached to them.

14 hours ago, Benice said:

She can double quite reliably from the get-go with a speed tonic, and does really big damage anyways; take chapter 14, for example. Even if she can't double quite yet, she does a metric ton of damage to the foe, and can quite easily reach very high crit rates on them- 20 crit from unmask + 25 from Killer Axe + 5 from skill stat, + potentially 10 more from Gamble if you want to keep it on. Without, that's 50 crit rate on 20 enemies in that chapter, and 60 crit with-14 of whom she has WTA against. She can also swap to Iron axe, retaining a very respectable 25-35 crit, depending on gamble. Furthermore, she also gets +4 damage from Unmask, meaning that she has 28 attack against each female enemy and drains over half the health bar for quite the majority of 'em*. That's also assuming base level, with no pair-up or tonics. Plus, since most enemies are level 14, she will gain no small amount of experience.

*She can also OHKO the Shrine maidens with a steel axe, although her hit rate will be somewhat suspect.

With her accuracy being suspect, that brings all that into question, as it doesn't matter how hard you hit if you... well, don't hit instead. And that's likely to get really old really quickly. Not to mention that this is at a point where my units are likely starting to establish themselves and nearing promotion. At that point, I'd have to jump through a lot of mental hoops to justify kicking someone else out for Charlotte's sake. Which begs the question, who would YOU be okay with benching to use Charlotte...? Because at that point, I would find fielding her over anyone I'm using at that point to only make my team worse, both in the short run and in the long run. In the context of chapter 14, sure, she threatens sky knights, but so do archers, except they don't risk taking a massive hit in the event they don't connect.

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Getting Charlotte caught up isn't as hard as you are acting, especially when she gets a +4 damage and +20 crit against every promoted enemy in her first two chapter (barring one in each) thanks to her personal skill. Once you catch her up she is a combat monster that is well worth the effort, and your weird insistence that 60+ health makes a unit a glass canon is as nonsensical as ever.

And thinking that high HP makes up for having the defensive ability of wet toilet paper is nothing short of laughable. In my book, a glass cannon has two things - strong offense, but bad defense. That certainly describes Charlotte to a T, no?

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Having used Niles into the lategame on multiple runs, even on Lunatic, take Shadow Mir's complaint with a massive grain of salt. Also Gazak is great, Shadow Mir just hates Axes in this series.

That's a bold-faced lie. I just hate axe infantry, because many of them are mediocre at best to outright bad at worst. If I really did hate axes anywhere near as much as you think I do, I wouldn't give the green light to Camilla so readily, now would I?? 

Edited by Shadow Mir

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