Metorid Dread Discussion/Impression

[Florete]

On 10/14/2021 at 11:31 AM, Jotari said:

*Like I said, Cross Bombs are a really cool idea that I wish you got earlier in the game. But oh wow did I not realize on finishing before exactly how late you get them. They're the third last power up, before only the Wave Beam and Power Bombs. That's after the Screw Attack. You get them after the Screw Attack! They should have been before the Space Jump at the very least.

While not on the "main" path, you actually can get them earlier, and this is probably intended considering there are tougher shinespark puzzles for basic expansions in the game:

On 10/14/2021 at 11:31 AM, Jotari said:

*It's not the first game to do it, but I think Super Missiles just being a straight upgrade to regular missiles is lame. It's not like you get a new item at all really, it just feels like missiles have to receive a mid game upgrade to stay relevant more than Super Missiles being their own thing with their own identity. I get they want to streamline the controls, and that worked pretty well on the GBA, but we have a few more buttons here, I think Super Missiles as a separate weapon could have worked. Maybe by pressing both right shoulder buttons at the same time (in other words pressing the missile and grapple beam toggles on).

This is likely an intentional reference/carry-over from Fusion. Others include "Wide Beam" (Spazer in other games) and Ice Missiles.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Florete

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

 

This is likely an intentional reference/carry-over from Fusion. Others include "Wide Beam" (Spazer in other games) and Ice Missiles.

I know that, like I said it's the the first game in the series to do so. But it being done before doesn't mean I'll like it as a design decision  now, or even then. Truth be told missiles were pretty useless in general outside of the early game of Metroid Fusion.

Re: The video (which I can't get rid of on mobile), interesting method. How early can they be gained then? Because the speed booster seems like literally the only requirement. Namely I'm wondering if you can get there before the X are released, ie at a time that doesn't make canonical sense.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Zapp Branniglenn]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Speaking if "secret techniques" (which the shin spark sort of was in the beginning), why do you think they gave a dedicated button in put for the speed booster? Seems a bit inconvenient to have a button for something like that which was automatic before.

Well in the three games where it's automatic, the player only has 3-4 buttons at their disposal so buttons had to share the burden of all the actions. Dread and Super Metroid had a lot more buttons, so they gave everything a unique function. I do wish Dread had either controller remapping or separate control types to choose. My USB controller for Switch has a gamecube face button layout, meaning that the B and Y buttons can't be pressed together without holding down A. If I could swap A and B's functions, that would have solved all my issues. Controller remapping may not be a standard feature of Metroid games, but it was there all the way back in Super. Hopefully they can add it in an update. Maybe even add advanced settings like Auto Speed booster when running. 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Re: The video (which I can't get rid of on mobile), interesting method. How early can they be gained then? Because the speed booster seems like literally the only requirement. Namely I'm wondering if you can get there before the X are released, ie at a time that doesn't make canonical sense.

There's a fire hazard you need to blow away in order to wind up that shine spark. So you need early ice missiles from the same area:

But, I'm pretty sure that room with the skip is only accessible from the train ride into Ghavoran (normally your third visit of this area), which itself isn't reachable until after Elun (where the X escape). I can see the player in both videos has plasma beam confirming that they've been there before recording this. 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Well in the three games where it's automatic, the player only has 3-4 buttons at their disposal so buttons had to share the burden of all the actions. Dread and Super Metroid had a lot more buttons, so they gave everything a unique function. I do wish Dread had either controller remapping or separate control types to choose. My USB controller for Switch has a gamecube face button layout, meaning that the B and Y buttons can't be pressed together without holding down A. If I could swap A and B's functions, that would have solved all my issues. Controller remapping may not be a standard feature of Metroid games, but it was there all the way back in Super. Hopefully they can add it in an update. Maybe even add advanced settings like Auto Speed booster when running.

I see no argument against the belief that controller remapping should come as standard for every game. Games should be made with a design philosophy of "every game has controller remapping, but no game should need it". And controllers themselves could do with a remap function. I also have a Game Cube USB controller, but I don't think it's official because the L1/R1 and L2/R2 buttons are swapped (so that the lower of them on the Joy Con is the higher of them on the Game Cube) which is pretty frustrating when swapping between controllers and having to adjust muscle memory.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

So far I like it. The game is undeniably great and there are moments where it really hooks me.

But Dread also reminds me of why I typically don't play Metroidvania's and why all the Prime games remained unfinished by me. I don't particularly enjoy getting lost in large labyrinthian worlds and the back tracking involved with it. The game is at its best when I move Samus around countless obstacles with a clear goal in mind, but when I'm lost with no clue on what to do and it turns out I've got to travel back two entire areas after a new power up then I'm not really enjoying myself.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Jotari]

Okay, so that's kind of lame. You can't unlock the full gallery on one save file. You get three pictures for clearing normal mode under 4 hours, and another three for clearing hard mode in under 4 hours, so the hard mode one doesn't unlock the normal mode one. So no matter how fast you beat the game, you'll always be missing three pictures 😕

Other scattered thoughts, I kind of feel like the names of Metroid Fusion and Dread kind of should be swapped. This game is altogether more about Samus's fusion with Metroid DNA than Fusion was. Meanwhile there's no real Dread here, unless it's in reference to the Emmis. But in Fusion the whole concept of the X and the SA-X stalking Samus conveys the feeling of Dread much more. That being said this is purely an observation, obviously they didn't have all these concepts and storylines planned out 20 years in advance.

You know I kind of feel a bit let down that we didn't really get to use the Metroid powers of the Metroid suit. It's just the hyper beam blasting away at the end, I'm talking the energy absorption powers. In terms of gameplay Raven Beak is a satisfying final boss who doesn't need another phase to be challenging, but they could have squeezed in another phase of the fight that's more cinematic in design while still being more than a single shot of hyper beam. Namely what I'm talking about is, as I said, the energy absorption. If the final phase of the fight involved Samus constantly absorbing energy to restore her HP then you could have had an extra phase of the boss fight that's basically impossible to lose, but still really fun for having this new OP suit and mechanic.

In general I'd like to have energy absorption be a gameplay trait in a Metroid game. I think there's a little bit of this with the grapple lasso in Metroid Prime 3, but I mean making use of the Metroid abilities within Samus as a gamepaly function and not just a plot element. Say if they make a sequel and the Metroid Suit comes back at times like the Hyper mode in Metroid Prime 3. I guess I'm saying steal all the ideas from Metroid Prime 3 and put them into a 2D game. I think they said this is the end of the saga or some sort? At least I think I seen someone say it in this thread, but I reckon that's just advertising to try and bring hype. They obviously will make more Metroid games (eventually) and sequels seem like the obvious path to go. Where else in the timeline can games go? I guess there is a break between Super Metroid and Other M (outside of Other M's opening), but Other M only managed to include Metroids in it by ripping off the plot of Fusion. The other gap in the timeline would be between Zero Mission and Samus returns, there's a reason why all the Prime games are set  in that time frame, it's the only time you can use elements from the series, namely that the Space Pirates and Metroids still exist (they kind of shot themselves in the foot making the Metroids extinct in the second game in the series, providing they want to stick to the actual title of the series and not leave it as an artifact, but thus far they have managed to keep Metroids relevant). But if they want to make the Prime games canon, something Ridley's appearance in Samus Returns suggests, then between Zero Mission and Samus Returns is already a bit bloated a part of the timeline. The only other option is a prequel before the series starts. Maybe showing the pirates actually successfully managing to use the Metroids as a bioweapon and showing why the Federation is so intent on destroying (and later secretly using) them. Ultimately though it seems titles after Dread is still where the most potential is. Aside from the Metroid Suit and the Metroid DNA in Samus mutating just being an under explored topic, there's also the initial thing that made a Fusion sequel interesting that this game just sidestepped, how Fusion's ending has changed Samus's relationship with the Federation.

[Florete]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Okay, so that's kind of lame. You can't unlock the full gallery on one save file. You get three pictures for clearing normal mode under 4 hours, and another three for clearing hard mode in under 4 hours, so the hard mode one doesn't unlock the normal mode one. So no matter how fast you beat the game, you'll always be missing three pictures 😕

You can, actually. You have to select the cleared save file and choose to start a new game on it instead of deleting or playing on the other difficulty in a different save file.

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, Florete said:

You can, actually. You have to select the cleared save file and choose to start a new game on it instead of deleting or playing on the other difficulty in a different save file.

Oh dang. Well I guess I have a file for my low % run. Does getting a game over and restarting count towards your play time? Because I'll probably have to take several attempts at those bosses. On my first playthrough I found Raven Beak the most difficult by far, but now I have much more trouble with the Storm Missile boss. The actual storm missile ability it uses is pretty hard to dodge and it's invincible half the time. There isn't something I'm missing, like a way to remove it's shielding other than just waiting it out, is there?

[Florete]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Does getting a game over and restarting count towards your play time?

To my knowledge, no, but don't quote me on that.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The actual storm missile ability it uses is pretty hard to dodge and it's invincible half the time. There isn't something I'm missing, like a way to remove it's shielding other than just waiting it out, is there?

Not really anything you're "missing," but you can speedboost into the room and shinespark into it from below. Knocks out more than half its health.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

To my knowledge, no, but don't quote me on that.

Not really anything you're "missing," but you can speedboost into the room and shinespark into it from below. Knocks out more than half its health.

I did try that, but never successfully pulled it off. The fact that you need to wait a few seconds for it to appear throws me off, as it also starts moving immediately. I have managed it with the Cross Bomb boss though.

[Jotari]

On 10/22/2021 at 12:50 AM, Florete said:

To my knowledge, no, but don't quote me on that.

So I did a test. Ran from a save point and waited a few minutes and got killed by an enemy in the same room. When I re spawned I immediately saved and virtually no time had passed. So I did a pretty regular playthrough, only unlike my previous under four hour runs I didn't bother resetting after dying. And since this was a low % run I died pretty frequently. Now I just beat the the big X boss in the magma place that's freezing the planet. And I was shocked to see that my playtime was 3 hours 40 minutes. My second run of the game, on normal mode, was 3:14 at the end of the save file and my third, on hard mode, was 3:02, so suffice to say 3:40 when I'm not even at end game is pretty significantly different, yet the only thing I did differently was stop resetting. I should have saved time even since I never went out of my way to even get the odd missile upgrade. But I can theorize what the cause is. I think while the time spent fighting a boss isn't counted towards the play time (I just spent like an hour and a half trying to beat this magma boss guy alone, it has predictable patterns, but it's pretty tough on zero energy tanks when a single hit will kill you), the time from where you respawn and when you enter the boss's room is counted. And there's only been a noticable jump with this boss because you have to climb a bit and go into morph ball through a loop before reaching the boss. It's only a few seconds each time, but if you're fighting the boss a lot, then that's going to build up. Unfortunately I don't reckon I'll be able to beat the game in another 20 minutes now. Still have the Cross Bomb boss and the chozo mech fights before Raven Beak, who alone will be pretty damn difficult with low %. I guess I'll just have to chalk this run up to a low % completion and then just do another quick one witht power ups to finally get all the save file pictures. Ce la vie.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Dr. Tarrasque]

GameXPlain made a video regarding the in-game timer:

 

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

GameXPlain made a video regarding the in-game timer:

 

Pretty much what I expect the case to be. Not something new for the series either, I recall Super Metroid even paused its timer when loading the transition between rooms! I even noticed myself that cutscenes seemed to be part of the timer, which also surprised me.

And just to clarify what I said above, while the timer resets to the last spawn point when you die, I don't think the spawn point is actually created until you enter the boss room, even though the spawn position lies outside the boss room (just in case you want to run around a bit more and prepare further for the boss). So if you keep on dying against a boss, seconds keep on getting added to your timer as you respawn, run into the boss room and create a new checkpoint, and then die and repeat. So while it's minor, time will be added if you do keep dying a lot (the same would be true with entrances to Emmi rooms, but not entrances to new areas, as the spawn point and position would be the same in those cases). This means, unless you're really, really good at the game, it'll be difficult to go for a sub 4 hour run simultaneously with low %. Though, while I think I'll fail, I probably will end up quite close to the four hour mark. So players a bit better than me (or where my skill levels currently are, I'm definitely  still improving) will be able to manage it.

[Florete]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

So I did a test. Ran from a save point and waited a few minutes and got killed by an enemy in the same room. When I re spawned I immediately saved and virtually no time had passed. So I did a pretty regular playthrough, only unlike my previous under four hour runs I didn't bother resetting after dying. And since this was a low % run I died pretty frequently. Now I just beat the the big X boss in the magma place that's freezing the planet. And I was shocked to see that my playtime was 3 hours 40 minutes. My second run of the game, on normal mode, was 3:14 at the end of the save file and my third, on hard mode, was 3:02, so suffice to say 3:40 when I'm not even at end game is pretty significantly different, yet the only thing I did differently was stop resetting. I should have saved time even since I never went out of my way to even get the odd missile upgrade. But I can theorize what the cause is. I think while the time spent fighting a boss isn't counted towards the play time (I just spent like an hour and a half trying to beat this magma boss guy alone, it has predictable patterns, but it's pretty tough on zero energy tanks when a single hit will kill you), the time from where you respawn and when you enter the boss's room is counted. And there's only been a noticable jump with this boss because you have to climb a bit and go into morph ball through a loop before reaching the boss. It's only a few seconds each time, but if you're fighting the boss a lot, then that's going to build up. Unfortunately I don't reckon I'll be able to beat the game in another 20 minutes now. Still have the Cross Bomb boss and the chozo mech fights before Raven Beak, who alone will be pretty damn difficult with low %. I guess I'll just have to chalk this run up to a low % completion and then just do another quick one witht power ups to finally get all the save file pictures. Ce la vie.

Coincidentally, I've also been doing a 0% run. I'm at the save point just before Raven Beak with 3:21 on the timer, which is higher than I had on hard where I was actually collecting items, didn't have the route committed to memory as well, and didn't know some of the quicker boss kill methods.

Raven Beak is a real pain in 0% btw, his shine spark attack in the final phase one-shots, is huge, and moves way too fast.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Mmm, maybe it's best to pick up a few items here or there. This game drops a lot of energy tanks directly in your path. No shame in grabbing them. Even in Metroid speedrunning, there are typically recommended energy tanks for beginner runners that may be having trouble staying alive. After all, once you get good at the run you can gradually take off the safety wheels. I remember super metroid paused the game timer for item pickups (any scenario in which you cannot currently control Samus), but I can't speak confidently on Metroid Dread's timer. Adding the time for skippable cutscenes is pretty lame. Other M had that same issue, but Samus Returns did not which was made by the same developer, so it's surprising to see it resurface here.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Jotari]

On 10/23/2021 at 5:41 AM, Florete said:

Coincidentally, I've also been doing a 0% run. I'm at the save point just before Raven Beak with 3:21 on the timer, which is higher than I had on hard where I was actually collecting items, didn't have the route committed to memory as well, and didn't know some of the quicker boss kill methods.

Raven Beak is a real pain in 0% btw, his shine spark attack in the final phase one-shots, is huge, and moves way too fast.

His Speed Booster attack is indeed lethal. Still, I think I find his second phase more difficult than the first or final phase as it's just much more difficult to damage him while avoiding his attacks. The opportunity to countr to restore health/missiles and deal more damage is also non existent. The lack of missiles in particular hurts. However I discovered that, surprisingly, he doesn't require the charge beam to damage. You can damage him just shooting regular old beams. So in lieu of a storm missile barrage, just rapidly tapping the regular beam attack is the most effective way to take him down. You can actually take out his first phase really quickly doing so, maybe even quicker than using storm missiles.

On 10/23/2021 at 6:34 AM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Mmm, maybe it's best to pick up a few items here or there. This game drops a lot of energy tanks directly in your path. No shame in grabbing them. Even in Metroid speedrunning, there are typically recommended energy tanks for beginner runners that may be having trouble staying alive. After all, once you get good at the run you can gradually take off the safety wheels. I remember super metroid paused the game timer for item pickups (any scenario in which you cannot currently control Samus), but I can't speak confidently on Metroid Dread's timer. Adding the time for skippable cutscenes is pretty lame. Other M had that same issue, but Samus Returns did not which was made by the same developer, so it's surprising to see it resurface here.

That'd kind of defy the point of a low% run. The whole conceit is to play the game without picking up any power ups (or as few as possible, there are some missiles close to low ceilings that I'm sure you can avoid by very carefully jumping over them, but I didn't have the skill or patience to do so, so it ended up being a 2% run).

[Zapp Branniglenn]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That'd kind of defy the point of a low% run. The whole conceit is to play the game without picking up any power ups (or as few as possible, there are some missiles close to low ceilings that I'm sure you can avoid by very carefully jumping over them, but I didn't have the skill or patience to do so, so it ended up being a 2% run).

Oh, I didn't realize it was a self imposed challenge run. I thought you were unlocking gallery images like before.

[Jotari]

32 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Oh, I didn't realize it was a self imposed challenge run. I thought you were unlocking gallery images like before.

I was trying to do both simultaneously, and failed as a result. I actually have unlocked all the gallery images. Just not on the same save file -_-

[Etrurian emperor]

I wonder if the budget started running a bit thin at the end. The second to last boss is basically a generic enemy with more health and a lightning gimmick attached. And the last area when you hit the surface is really short.

Speaking of that. How does ZDR work exactly? When you reach the very last area Adam congratulates you on finally reaching the surface but I've been seeing sunshine quite a long time before that. Ferenia and Elun for instance both seem to be Chozo palaces, and if you look outside the window you can see.....outside. You literally see the sun shine through the windows. And in Burenia you can see the coast and I think it even rains in the spots where you can look outside the facility.

This hardly looks subterranean to me

Edited October 24, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I wonder if the budget started running a bit thin at the end. The second to last boss is basically a generic enemy with more health and a lightning gimmick attached. And the last area when you hit the surface is really short.

Lightning gimmick? I don't remember the last chozo soldier having any extra lightning attack. Unless you're talking about the cross bombs boss which does use the said cross bombs. But personally I think that, while the design of the boss does lean to the rather generic, as an actual boss it functions pretty well in terms of when it's available to damage and the difficulty in evading its attacks. Though it does feel quite neutered as a boss by being introduced as a suped up regular enemy and lacking any cutscene to go along with it.

[Etrurian emperor]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Lightning gimmick? I don't remember the last chozo soldier having any extra lightning attack. Unless you're talking about the cross bombs boss which does use the said cross bombs. But personally I think that, while the design of the boss does lean to the rather generic, as an actual boss it functions pretty well in terms of when it's available to damage and the difficulty in evading its attacks. Though it does feel quite neutered as a boss by being introduced as a suped up regular enemy and lacking any cutscene to go along with it.

Well, mister goldface doesn't entirely indicate a strong budget since aside from an extra move to get his shield away he's the same as the last few Chozo warriors. 

But I meant the Cross bomb boss yeah. Mister goldface is more of a mini boss. The boss felt very cheap. No introduction cutscene, the model of a generic enemy, the same melee attacks of said generic enemy and the cross bombs which felt more like an additional gimmick than a true boss fight mechanic.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The Cross Bomb boss? I love that guy. The first version of him is what Samus clowns on in the opening tutorial that teaches you about parrying. And now look at him, serving as one of the bigger gatekeepers for first time players that don't think they need to respect all of his attacks. You're not parrying this big boy.

38 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Speaking of that. How does ZDR work exactly? When you reach the very last area Adam congratulates you on finally reaching the surface but I've been seeing sunshine quite a long time before that. Ferenia and Elun for instance both seem to be Chozo palaces, and if you look outside the window you can see.....outside. You literally see the sun shine through the windows. And in Burenia you can see the coast and I think it even rains in the spots where you can look outside the facility.
 

Ah yes, "the Blaster Master question". Why is the game telling me we're going underground yet the first level is as bright and sunny as world 1-1 of Super Mario Bros.

For this game I just chalk it up to altitudinal and climate differences. You get around the planet on high speed bullet trains and teleporters, so the exact distance between them is impossible to gauge. I actually like that you do start seeing glimpses of the outside as you go higher up. But I imagine it's just a weakness of language that they can't call it anything other than "the surface". It's like when somebody calls the basement in your home "underground". It's technically correct, but it's also a distinction without a difference. It's still part of your house.

[vanguard333]

I've been considering whether or not to get this game. I am brand new to Metroidvanias: my first, and so far only, experience with them was playing Super Metroid for the first time a couple weeks ago via the Switch Online free trial. My thoughts on it were that it didn't make me an instant fan of Metroidvanias, but I can see why Super Metroid is considered a classic.

[Florete]

23 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I've been considering whether or not to get this game. I am brand new to Metroidvanias: my first, and so far only, experience with them was playing Super Metroid for the first time a couple weeks ago via the Switch Online free trial. My thoughts on it were that it didn't make me an instant fan of Metroidvanias, but I can see why Super Metroid is considered a classic.

I will only recommend Dread as your first if you don't mind the current price for it. It's a great game, but it is rather short (someone new to the genre will probably take ~15 hours to complete one run).

I also wouldn't recommend Super Metroid as someone's first unless you're currently living in 1995. It's great and the game does hold up well in many aspects, but there are still places where its age can be seen.

Instead, I'd recommend either Zero Mission or Fusion as a starting point. Zero Mission is a more natural metroidvania experience with only some basic hints, while Fusion is much more guided but I also think is a good way to ease into the genre. Fusion's story also directly leads into Dread, so there's that, although that isn't super important. I think both games hold up very well, but I also played them back when they were new, so I'm biased in that regard.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

I will only recommend Dread as your first if you don't mind the current price for it. It's a great game, but it is rather short (someone new to the genre will probably take ~15 hours to complete one run).

I also wouldn't recommend Super Metroid as someone's first unless you're currently living in 1995. It's great and the game does hold up well in many aspects, but there are still places where its age can be seen.

Instead, I'd recommend either Zero Mission or Fusion as a starting point. Zero Mission is a more natural metroidvania experience with only some basic hints, while Fusion is much more guided but I also think is a good way to ease into the genre. Fusion's story also directly leads into Dread, so there's that, although that isn't super important. I think both games hold up very well, but I also played them back when they were new, so I'm biased in that regard.

It won't be my first; it'll be my second. As I said, Super Metroid is already my first.

I thought that it held up fairly well overall aside from some smaller stuff like the limited aiming, some cramped boss rooms (not cramped in a "makes the player feel claustrophobic" way, but in an annoying, "There's nowhere to go to dodge this attack" way), the red doors requiring five missiles to open without anything to tell you that it takes five missiles, and that one optional section where you have to learn how to wall jump to escape.

I can't really play either of those; I don't have a working Gameboy Advance or emulators.