Infantry Emblem

[FailWood]

Which Fire Emblem games would you say are the best (or worst) to be an Infantry unit in, ignoring Heroes and Warriors?

[Interdimensional Observer]

Off the top of my head, the best games would include Thracia 776, due to dismounting being present there and more potent than its FE3 incarnation. I'd also be inclined to say Awakening, as Pair Up lets you pair to a mounty, move using their move, and then swap to the infantry once you're done moving. One turn of cavalry or flier movement is often enough for Awakening too, the map design doesn't demand tremendous rushing nor is covered in icky terrain.

Genealogy and Path of Radiance rank among the worst for infantry. Huge maps explain Genealogy. And whereas some footies can be standout units in FE4, PoR's infantry aren't as spectacular against their cavalry and fliers.

[Shaky Jones]

Shadows of Valentia (aka Gaiden remake) has a lot of map tiles that slows down cavalry, like swamp tiles, desert tiles, or forests. This doesn't do anything to stop flying units from being really helpful, but I rarely (if ever) end up picking cavalry for villager units.

Three Houses definitely feels like it nerfed cavaliers. Canto+ helps, but Paladin doesn't feel too helpful, since most cavalier classes either make the unit slower, or just decrease their base stats all around from a previous class (Sniper to Bow Knight). And then they choose to make wyverns absurdly busted. 

Those are the only games I can think of where I avoid the Cavalier class. I can't think of a game where I dislike the flying classes. I guess Awakening has plenty of snipers, warriors, and assassins with forged silver bows in the late game that can obliterate your flying team, but that game has gale-force. Yeah I got nothing.

[Shadow Mir]

Worst game for infantry is Genealogy of the Holy War, no contest. The giant maps inflate the usefulness of cavalry units to a massive extreme, while most foot units get shafted (that being said, there are some good foot units, but when it takes the mounted units several turns before they start clashing with the enemy force...). Path of Radiance and Binding Blade get dishonorable mention because of the generally stellar mounted units in the former, while the latter has really big maps (not to Genealogy's extent, but still enough that it's noticeable).

For games that are more friendly to foot units, I'd say Three Houses off the top of my head, as between the nerfs to cavalry and the fact that a good deal of maps have terrain that is not friendly to cavalry units, I find it best to avoid cavalry classes for most characters, with few exceptions (there is the fact that fliers are great, but that's another issue entirely).

Edited October 10, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[-Moonlight-]

11 hours ago, Shaky Jones said:

Three Houses definitely feels like it nerfed cavaliers. Canto+ helps, but Paladin doesn't feel too helpful, since most cavalier classes either make the unit slower, or just decrease their base stats all around from a previous class (Sniper to Bow Knight). And then they choose to make wyverns absurdly busted.

i wouldn't know about the wyverns since the only wyvern classes i ever used was for felix, but i agree in remembering there being an abundance of many, many "stair/sand/cliffs" or some sort of floor tile disadvantaging the horses mounted units.
my experience with mercie as a holy knight, especially in "an ocean view" (flayn's paralogue), can really disadvantage purposefully mounted units.

[FailWood]

6 hours ago, -Moonlight- said:

i wouldn't know about the wyverns since the only wyvern classes i ever used was for felix

Give Seteth a go for one of your playthroughs, it's silly how good he is at base despite being one of the last units you can get.  Then there's Claude, who you could keep in his personal class after the timeskip, or reclass him into a Wyvern Rider(Lord) if you want him to focus on Axes more instead of Bows.

[defensedefumer]

Infantry is horrible in the Genealogy of the Holy War. The maps are super big, and it takes forever for infantry to go from one stop to another.

Three Houses is very partial to infantry and fliers. Especially if the infantry is named Felix or Dimitri.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I would say Awakening for where infantry is best. The most dominant strategy in the game is Nosfertanking, and Nosferatu can only be used in infantry classes (Dark Mage and Sorceror). They can also still have good movement, by pairing up with a mount/flier, moving, then switching the lead.

As for the worst game for infantry, yeah I agree that it's Genealogy. Your Dancers are excellent, and your Thieves and infantry staffers maintain a niche. But combat-oriented infantry really don't have a good time here, especially relative to your mounted forces.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hopefully this isn't considered too old a thread to post in, but:

I'm gonna go against the grain and say that Path of Radiance is the worst game for infantry, rather than Genealogy... though it depends somewhat how the question is defined. One thing about infantry in FE4 is that they usually do have better stats/combat than their mounted competition (with some notable exceptions)... for instance Jamke and Brigid have better stats (and in one case, a legendary weapon) than Midir, and Ayra has better stats than the various cavaliers like Alec, Noish, Beowulf, etc. It's enough to make those comparisons actually interesting, although of course the best mounted units (such as Sigurd) are the runaway winners.

PoR doesn't have this. The paladins and fliers have killer stats, frequently just as good or better than their infantry competition. Oscar and Marcia have comparable stats to Nephenee (and better supports), Kieran's stats are arguably better than Boyd's (better speed/durability), Astrid has better bulk/speed than the snipers AND gets a backup weapon on promotion, etc. I agree that if FE4 had made similar decisions with unit stats, that its infantry would be worse, but as is I think PoR takes the cake.

I think Fates, and Birthright in particular, is my vote for best infantry. Many infantry classes have clear combat niches, particularly ninjas with their access to 1-2 weapons which can double, but even other infantry classes typically have better stats than their mounted competition - I think Berserker, Swordmaster, Sniper, Spearmaster, and Sorcerer all have clear uses. Though it's worth noting that even in this case, I wouldn't say infantry are the best units necessarily, because the mobility offered by mounts is still a big deal. The case for it is strongest in Birthright, due to Ryoma and the ninjas.

Although Awakening should probably be considered just because it has exclusive access to Nosferatu (DLC Shadowgift aside) and that's one of the simplest ways to break the game. Outside that, though, I found infantry classes to have weaker niches than they did in Fates.

Three Houses should be mentioned because Sniper is really good, but otherwise I find infantry pretty underwhelming as usual. Just wow, Hunter's Volley sure is grand to have.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Dark Holy Elf
forgot Sniper, Quick Draw/Certain Blow/Bowfaire are cool

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

39 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

PoR doesn't have this. The paladins and fliers have killer stats, frequently just as good or better than their infantry competition. Oscar and Marcia have comparable stats to Nephenee (and better supports), Kieran's stats are arguably better than Boyd's (better speed/durability), Astrid has better bulk/speed than the snipers AND gets a backup weapon on promotion, etc. I agree that if FE4 had made similar decisions with unit stats, that its infantry would be worse, but as is I think PoR takes the cake.

All good points on Path of Radiance. Maybe it's because there are just fewer cavalry in that game than in Genealogy, that they seem less dominant. If there's one tiny balancing decision that FE4 deserves credit for, it's restricting the "sword skills" to infantry units.

45 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Three Houses should be mentioned because Sniper is really good, but otherwise I find infantry pretty underwhelming as usual. Just wow, Hunter's Volley sure is grand to have.

Also Grapplers with Fierce Iron Fist, and gauntlet-users in general, can be strong infantry choices. I'm of the mind that there's actually a pretty good balance between infantry and cavalry classes in 3H. Assassin, for instance, has more mobility through forests, and more speed, than cavalry can ever hope to achieve. Warlock/Bishop/Gremory all get more spell casts than Dark/Holy Knight. Fortress Knight has the highest raw physical bulk. Infantry classes get the cool, exclusive combat arts. On the flip side, cavalry classes have more movement in most terrain, and Canto provides additional versatility. Not to mention, Lancefaire for lance-builds. These two sides seem fairly balanced... until the flying classes show up and trivialize all efforts made at map design. Why would I ever use a Warrior, when Wyvern Rider is faster, more mobile, and easier to certify in?

[Shadow Mir]

50 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm gonna go against the grain and say that Path of Radiance is the worst game for infantry, rather than Genealogy... though it depends somewhat how the question is defined. One thing about infantry in FE4 is that they usually do have better stats/combat than their mounted competition (with some notable exceptions)... for instance Jamke and Brigid have better stats (and in one case, a legendary weapon) than Midir, and Ayra has better stats than the various cavaliers like Alec, Noish, Beowulf, etc. It's enough to make those comparisons actually interesting, although of course the best mounted units (such as Sigurd) are the runaway winners.

PoR doesn't have this. The paladins and fliers have killer stats, frequently just as good or better than their infantry competition. Oscar and Marcia have comparable stats to Nephenee (and better supports), Kieran's stats are arguably better than Boyd's (better speed/durability), Astrid has better bulk/speed than the snipers AND gets a backup weapon on promotion, etc. I agree that if FE4 had made similar decisions with unit stats, that its infantry would be worse, but as is I think PoR takes the cake.

I don't know why you say this; imho, the real issue here is that Genealogy has ginormous maps, and thus even the cavalry take several turns to reach enemies. It doesn't help matters that Canto is at its absolute peak, as unlike in other games, you can still switch weapons after attacking. Then there's the fact that roads multiply movement, making the already big movement gap even worse. Ayra might have better stats than most of her mounted competitors, but that doesn't help her much when unless you regularly slow down, she'd be lucky to see combat outside of the arena. 

50 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Three Houses should be mentioned because Sniper is really good, but otherwise I find infantry pretty underwhelming as usual. Just wow, Hunter's Volley sure is grand to have.

Bold: Funny you say that, because I found it the other way around - most cavalry classes are underwhelming, with the abundance of cavalry-hindering terrain eroding or at least blunting their movement edge. It's gotten to the point where I pretty much refuse to use any cavalry class that isn't Bow Knight or Paladin. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: Funny you say that, because I found it the other way around - most cavalry classes are underwhelming, with the abundance of cavalry-hindering terrain eroding or at least blunting their movement edge. It's gotten to the point where I pretty much refuse to use any cavalry class that isn't Bow Knight or Paladin. 

Let's not re-litigate Dark Knight here. Ignoring magic for a moment, you've just listed two of the game's three advanced/master cavalry classes, and I assume you agree that the fliers are great. (Remember, this conversation is "infantry vs. non-infanry", not "infantry vs. cavalry"... in 3H's case, fliers are on Team Non-Infantry!) If five out of the six physical mounted classes are strong classes, it's a bit strange to spin that as a good look for infantry.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ayra might have better stats than most of her mounted competitors, but that doesn't help her much when unless you regularly slow down, she'd be lucky to see combat outside of the arena. 

I play pretty fast and I still find that a slight exaggeration, in no small part because FE4 maps aren't straight lines. Is FE4 horse emblem? Absolutely. But I look at Ayra and I see a unit with more use than (PoR) Mia or Zihark, I look at Jamke/Brigid and I see units with more value than than Rolf/Shinon. They're not great units, but I see what they're going for, because they do have a legitimate advantage on their (ordinary) cavalry competition.

I just looked up a FE4 unit rating list to make sure I wasn't crazy (link), and it supports what I said: Ayra is rated (slightly) above Alec/Noish/Beowulf, and while Jamke/Brigid are rated below Midir, it's not by some huge margin. Aideen and Lewyn also got pretty good scores, because again, they have niches (in Aideen's case, Warp/Physic).

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also Grapplers with Fierce Iron Fist, and gauntlet-users in general, can be strong infantry choices. I'm of the mind that there's actually a pretty good balance between infantry and cavalry classes in 3H. Assassin, for instance, has more mobility through forests, and more speed, than cavalry can ever hope to achieve. Warlock/Bishop/Gremory all get more spell casts than Dark/Holy Knight. Fortress Knight has the highest raw physical bulk. Infantry classes get the cool, exclusive combat arts.

3H infantry vs cavalry isn't hopelessly lopsided in some games, but... well, look at it this way. Almost every mounted class in 3H is useful; while the list of "obviously subpar 3H classes" is just a parade of infantry classes: swordmaster, hero, warrior, and fortress knight are all common picks, while Holy Knight is the only commonly derided non-infantry class (and that's mainly because Dark Knight is better). In fairness, I suppose you can debate how much of this is due to the general weakness of infantry, and how poor the balance is within the infantry classes themselves; Swordmaster vs. Sniper is pretty pathetic. The best infantry classes IMO range from great (sniper) to respectable (assassin and the fistfaire classes), but the bad ones are quite bad indeed.

Edit: I realized I mostly sidestepped the issue of mages in 3H in this discussion entirely. I think mages are in an odd spot in this conversation because so much depends on availability as far as infantry vs non-infantry is concerned: if we don't have the DLC, or are discussing a male mage, then "infantry vs. not" isn't even an option for mages until Level 30, which doesn't result in a very useful conversation. I will say that broadly, I think the core 3H infantry magic classes are all at least respectably useful, though.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Dark Holy Elf

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

3H infantry vs cavalry isn't hopelessly lopsided in some games, but... well, look at it this way. Almost every mounted class in 3H is useful; while the list of "obviously subpar 3H classes" is just a parade of infantry classes: swordmaster, hero, warrior, and fortress knight are all common picks, while Holy Knight is the only commonly derided non-infantry class (and that's mainly because Dark Knight is better). In fairness, I suppose you can debate how much of this is due to the general weakness of infantry, and how poor the balance is within the infantry classes themselves; Swordmaster vs. Sniper is pretty pathetic. The best infantry classes IMO range from great (sniper) to respectable (assassin and the fistfaire classes), but the bad ones are quite bad indeed.

At the same time, let's look at Intermediate classes. Cavalier is almost never recommended for units, even though it's the most mobile class in that tier. Presumably because its mastery skill (Desperation) is viewed as lacking relative to others (Hit +20, Death Blow, Fiendish Blow, Darting Blow). For my part, I think Cavalier can be a good "second Intermediate" class, once they've secured a desirable mastery skill (i.e. get Cyril Death Blow, then go Cavalier for a mobile Vengeance/PBV).

As for the "endgame classes", I would contest that Fortress Knight belongs in the garbage bin. It's the most defensive class in the game, so if I want to construct a defensive tank on Maddening, it makes the most sense. 4 move is bad, but there are a lot of tools to linearly increase movement (i.e. Reposition, Stride). Great Knight loses some defense (but 3 move and Canto is a winning trade), albeit with really obnoxious certification requirements. I'd put Fortress Knight moreso in the "gray area" of utility, with the likes of Assassin and Warlock.

You touched on a point with infantry classes - there are a few bad ones, but mostly as viewed relative to other infantry classes. Dark Bishop is a worse Warlock for anyone not named Hubert, while Swordmaster and Hero don't make up for their lower mobility re: Assassin. The one exception is Warrior, who can just be seen as a worse Wyvern Rider, but no one's contesting that flying classes are OP in this game.

[Whisky]

On 10/10/2021 at 10:55 AM, Shaky Jones said:

Three Houses definitely feels like it nerfed cavaliers. Canto+ helps, but Paladin doesn't feel too helpful, since most cavalier classes either make the unit slower, or just decrease their base stats all around from a previous class (Sniper to Bow Knight). And then they choose to make wyverns absurdly busted. 

Paladin isn’t a bad class in 3H at all. Wyvern Rider is clearly better for most units but it’s also better than most other classes too. Paladin is a good class for a few units, most notably Ferdinand and Sylvain, also for those two the Spd penalty (which is only 10% anyway) doesn’t matter much since they can always double with Swift Strikes.

Bow Knight does not have decreased base stats from Sniper. It has +2 Dex and +2 Luc but that’s it. That amounts to only 3% extra Hit and 1% extra Crit. It’s a really negligible difference. Meanwhile, Bow Knight has +1 Spd while mounted and +3 Spd if you dismount. Movement could also be considered part of the base stats of a class and obviously Bow Knight has +3 Move along with Canto+. Even a dismounted Bow Knight still has more Move and Spd than a Sniper (and Bow Range too). Sniper is good because of Hunter’s Volley but aside from that Bow Knight is much better.

-

As for the topic, I still haven’t played quite a few of the games but from the games I have played, every game has at least a few good infantry units, and mounted units are always at an inherent advantage over infantry.

I think the worst game for infantry out of the ones I played is Path of Radiance. Maps are big and mounted units are really strong in that game, and they have Super Canto. Infantry is really at a huge disadvantage compared to mounted units in this game.

For the best games for infantry out of the ones I’ve played, I’m not sure but a few come to mind for different reasons. 3H does have a few good infantry classes like Sniper with Hunter’s Volley or Grappler/WarMaster with their unmatched killing power, but mounted units still have some huge advantages over them too. There are some strong infantry units in Echoes with Dread Fighters being really good and Mages being able to kill enemies from long range (that applies to 3H too actually).

I also want to give an honorable mention to Binding Blade and also give some push back to some other people bringing it up as one of the worst for infantry units. In what other game is a Sword locked infantry unit in debate for being the best unit in the game? In what other game will you see an infantry Priest generally tiered higher than the mounted Troubadour? Mounted units are still really good in FE6 as they always are, but there are quite a few good infantry units. The balance between the classes themselves is honestly among the best in the series in Binding Blade.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Whisky said:

I also want to give an honorable mention to Binding Blade and also give some push back to some other people bringing it up as one of the worst for infantry units. In what other game is a Sword locked infantry unit in debate for being the best unit in the game? In what other game will you see an infantry Priest generally tiered higher than the mounted Troubadour? Mounted units are still really good in FE6 as they always are, but there are quite a few good infantry units. The balance between the classes themselves is honestly among the best in the series in Binding Blade.

Birthright and Revelation, respectively. That said, I generally agree that infantry aren't that bad in FE6. Nomads and Wyverns still kinda busted though.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Whisky said:

I also want to give an honorable mention to Binding Blade and also give some push back to some other people bringing it up as one of the worst for infantry units. In what other game is a Sword locked infantry unit in debate for being the best unit in the game? In what other game will you see an infantry Priest generally tiered higher than the mounted Troubadour? Mounted units are still really good in FE6 as they always are, but there are quite a few good infantry units. The balance between the classes themselves is honestly among the best in the series in Binding Blade.

Bold: Birthright and Sacred Stones, respectively.

[Dark Holy Elf]

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

At the same time, let's look at Intermediate classes. Cavalier is almost never recommended for units, even though it's the most mobile class in that tier. Presumably because its mastery skill (Desperation) is viewed as lacking relative to others (Hit +20, Death Blow, Fiendish Blow, Darting Blow). For my part, I think Cavalier can be a good "second Intermediate" class, once they've secured a desirable mastery skill (i.e. get Cyril Death Blow, then go Cavalier for a mobile Vengeance/PBV).

As for the "endgame classes", I would contest that Fortress Knight belongs in the garbage bin. It's the most defensive class in the game, so if I want to construct a defensive tank on Maddening, it makes the most sense. 4 move is bad, but there are a lot of tools to linearly increase movement (i.e. Reposition, Stride). Great Knight loses some defense (but 3 move and Canto is a winning trade), albeit with really obnoxious certification requirements. I'd put Fortress Knight moreso in the "gray area" of utility, with the likes of Assassin and Warlock.

You touched on a point with infantry classes - there are a few bad ones, but mostly as viewed relative to other infantry classes. Dark Bishop is a worse Warlock for anyone not named Hubert, while Swordmaster and Hero don't make up for their lower mobility re: Assassin. The one exception is Warrior, who can just be seen as a worse Wyvern Rider, but no one's contesting that flying classes are OP in this game.

All fair points. I'm a bit more down on Fortress Knight than you, but it definitely has a niche. Intermediate tier is very odd in 3H because you spend most of it chasing masteries. Cavalier is obviously better than Brigand if you just want to be in the class, but because the Intermediate section of the game is considered relatively easy the general recommendation is that it's worth it to spend time in a weaker class to gain +6 base damage (so as much as +24 depending on the build you're going for) later. I'm not sure if Cavalier's poor mastery skill speaks poorly of cavalry in general in 3H... though you can make the case that yes, it's a factor.

[X-Naut]

On 11/7/2021 at 9:36 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm gonna go against the grain and say that Path of Radiance is the worst game for infantry, rather than Genealogy... though it depends somewhat how the question is defined. One thing about infantry in FE4 is that they usually do have better stats/combat than their mounted competition (with some notable exceptions)... for instance Jamke and Brigid have better stats (and in one case, a legendary weapon) than Midir, and Ayra has better stats than the various cavaliers like Alec, Noish, Beowulf, etc. It's enough to make those comparisons actually interesting, although of course the best mounted units (such as Sigurd) are the runaway winners.

PoR doesn't have this. The paladins and fliers have killer stats, frequently just as good or better than their infantry competition. Oscar and Marcia have comparable stats to Nephenee (and better supports), Kieran's stats are arguably better than Boyd's (better speed/durability), Astrid has better bulk/speed than the snipers AND gets a backup weapon on promotion, etc. I agree that if FE4 had made similar decisions with unit stats, that its infantry would be worse, but as is I think PoR takes the cake.

Adding onto this, there are two other things that help infantry out in Genealogy compared to PoR. The first is obviously that they have opportunities to train despite not being on the front lines. Arena, staff grinding, saving civilians... and unlike PoR BEXP you can't just funnel it all into one unit. (At least not arena...)

The second is that you have the means and incentive to capitalize on infantry's contributions. There's no rescue-dropping but Genealogy maps have multiple objectives that activate at different times, plus side objectives like saving villages. Infantry can move towards them while they're inactive so that the mounts can focus on the active objectives, and then get a cut of the pie when it does. This applies more to Gen 1 but Gen 2 still provides opportunities. Warp also helps them get around faster, particularly on the aforementioned Gen 1 maps.