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Buff and Nerf in Three Houses ?

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8 hours ago, lenticular said:

Mobility definitely is an issue and I'm not going to claim that it isn't, but I will say that Three Houses has a lot of decent mobility options. Through a combination of Stride, Warp, Rescue, Dancing, positional Combat Arts, and so on, it really isn't that difficult to get a Fortress Knight where you need them to be. Certainly, high movement is better than low movement and not needing to use these options is better than having to expend them, but low mobility doesn't make a unit completely worthless.

Adding on to this point, but if mobility is your biggest concern, there is always great Knight as well, which gives up 2 defence but has 3 more movement. It’s a more high investment option since you’ll have to train an extra rank of axes, two ranks of armour, and get your riding all the way to B+* from (likely) E, and I may be one of the few people who actually enjoys that trade off, but still.

*Though usually I prefer to only train riding to C just to make things easier on myself. 100% certification rate be damned.

 

Anyway, on the topic of the thread I generally agree with most of it. The most significant point I’ll reraise is dodgetanking, because at least from the games I’ve played it’s pretty much at its best here in 3H. Methods of stacking evasion are pretty easy to get going, and really effective as well. Gambits provide an issue since they ignore conventional avoid pretty much, but since it’s fairly simple to get charm in this game it’s not a massive dealbreaker IMO, dodgetanking is still really good.

Edited by Anathaco

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@lenticular said just about everything I would have in defense of Armors, except that she even brought numbers to the table. What seem to be just a handful of classes are actually quite common situationally - the infamous "Hunting by Daybreak", for instance, is entirely made up of Sword, Gauntlet, and Bow infantry classes. The Great Knight has been proposed as a mobility fix, but even aside from that, this is a game with a ton of tools to move units around (i.e. Rescue, Stride, Reposition). 4 move is a flaw of Armor and Fortress Knights, but not an insurmountable one. Finally, the lure unit doesn't need to do a ton of damage upon counter-attack - just enough to let an ally secure the kill next player-phase. But if you want to do player-phase damage with them, I highly recommend the Brave Axe, or Swift Strikes on those who get it.

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11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

@lenticular said just about everything I would have in defense of Armors, except that she even brought numbers to the table. What seem to be just a handful of classes are actually quite common situationally - the infamous "Hunting by Daybreak", for instance, is entirely made up of Sword, Gauntlet, and Bow infantry classes. The Great Knight has been proposed as a mobility fix, but even aside from that, this is a game with a ton of tools to move units around (i.e. Rescue, Stride, Reposition). 4 move is a flaw of Armor and Fortress Knights, but not an insurmountable one. Finally, the lure unit doesn't need to do a ton of damage upon counter-attack - just enough to let an ally secure the kill next player-phase. But if you want to do player-phase damage with them, I highly recommend the Brave Axe, or Swift Strikes on those who get it.

Plus sometimes Fortress Knights can be necessary on certain maps. I think particularly Azure Moon you’ll get Dedue’s battalion Duscat Heavy Soldiers for that juicy 10 protection. Combine that with a Silver Shield and maybe a March Ring incase you need to get into position. With the Silver Shield plus the battalion you’ll be rocking an additional 14 defense on top of whatever your base defense stat is. 

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There is also Armored Lord/Emperor for Edelgard, if we disregard the elephant in that room.

The only difference it has to Fortress Knight is having higher HP, a bit lower defense, mildly higher luck, and +1 movement. And Edelgard having Raging Storm.

Pretty sure most of the main stacking strategies can be applied to Edelgard, with the added bonus of Aymr wrecking things. But I am not sure how much value it has in post-skip CF.

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On 10/15/2021 at 3:36 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Prays in Miracle

fefates-icon-midoriko.jpg.89900afdecfa0fc23f38c9aa2de2e872.jpg
 

Don't have too much to add to what's been said already(in fact I went through a bit too quickly, sorry if I repeat anything), though I'm tempted to say Skill/Dex is at its absolute worst in this game. It's limited by the formula for accuracy(and even more so for magic), which there are multiple practical ways to stack more of to boot. A character having next to no dex at max level, while not an actual thing, would barely be a problem on a lot of builds.

A minor one but ice magic is usually reserved for high level anima/wind spell or siege. In this one while we have both namesakes at once, they're pretty terrible, and usually seem like filler for characters who clearly aren't meant to be mages but needed a spell list like everyone else. The concept of low hit, low mt, low uses, high crit spells is difficult to make good use of. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough.
Arguably wind magic is also close to the worst it's ever been, but it's typically quite good, so that's not saying as much.

"Pairup" is definitely at its worst, but only because it was broken before. It's still very useful here.

... finally there are the Hero and Lord classes, which aren't unusable nor necessarily at their worst ever(lord especially not), but bring so little to the table that they may as well not have been there.

Edited by Cysx

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Promoting is at it´s weakest in TH.

Potentially RNG dependant and you can only promote in a specific menu, never on a map, should you need a power boost right then and there. Or begin grinding away on another skill.

 

I don´t know if this counts but enemy equipment/inventory? I only really seem to remember the... Mace Armor Knight in Kronyas map? 

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14 hours ago, Cysx said:

fefates-icon-midoriko.jpg.89900afdecfa0fc23f38c9aa2de2e872.jpg
 

Don't have too much to add to what's been said already(in fact I went through a bit too quickly, sorry if I repeat anything), though I'm tempted to say Skill/Dex is at its absolute worst in this game. It's limited by the formula for accuracy(and even more so for magic), which there are multiple practical ways to stack more of to boot. A character having next to no dex at max level, while not an actual thing, would barely be a problem on a lot of builds.

A minor one but ice magic is usually reserved for high level anima/wind spell or siege. In this one while we have both namesakes at once, they're pretty terrible, and usually seem like filler for characters who clearly aren't meant to be mages but needed a spell list like everyone else. The concept of low hit, low mt, low uses, high crit spells is difficult to make good use of. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough.
Arguably wind magic is also close to the worst it's ever been, but it's typically quite good, so that's not saying as much.

"Pairup" is definitely at its worst, but only because it was broken before. It's still very useful here.

... finally there are the Hero and Lord classes, which aren't unusable nor necessarily at their worst ever(lord especially not), but bring so little to the table that they may as well not have been there.

Agreed on dex (though it's rarely good) and ice magic, and obviously Pairup (I thought Fates' version was decently well-balanced myself, but still a game-changer in a way that adjutants just aren't).

Wind magic... yeah it's often very good. I think this game's wind magic is comparable to that of Tellius in that it's less bad and more (a small lateral shift from fire/lightning), though of course it's largely moot because you don't choose what spells you get. In some ways I think wind suffers in this game not so much because of the spells themselves (which... do have higher hit/accuracy than their immediate competition), but because the game typically gives wind spells to the slowest and least offensively capable mage (Linhardt and Flayn in particular). I'm surprised the devs didn't make a mage with at least 9+50% (Ashe-level) speed and wind spells but they were probably wary of over-tuning them.

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12 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

(I thought Fates' version was decently well-balanced myself, but still a game-changer in a way that adjutants just aren't).

Fates' would be pretty close to balanced in my book if it didn't include dual guard. Complete invincibility every two or three fights, while difficult to plan around(which... isn't really a good thing either), is just way too strong.

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It's good obviously, just you give up a fair bit for it too - you lose a player phase action from your paired unit most obviously, but also it's a notable offensive hit in both accuracy and not being able to benefit from support attacks. I'm definitely struck by the fact that there are some challenges in the game (like the room full of sorcerers in Conquest 26) which are distinctly easier to overcome using unpaired units. Though, certainly, I'd still use it even without the dual guard for the crit avoid boost and enemy-support-attack immunity (not to mention stats), so point taken that dual guard might be a bit much.

 

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16 hours ago, Cysx said:

fefates-icon-midoriko.jpg.89900afdecfa0fc23f38c9aa2de2e872.jpg
 

Don't have too much to add to what's been said already(in fact I went through a bit too quickly, sorry if I repeat anything), though I'm tempted to say Skill/Dex is at its absolute worst in this game. It's limited by the formula for accuracy(and even more so for magic), which there are multiple practical ways to stack more of to boot. A character having next to no dex at max level, while not an actual thing, would barely be a problem on a lot of builds.

A minor one but ice magic is usually reserved for high level anima/wind spell or siege. In this one while we have both namesakes at once, they're pretty terrible, and usually seem like filler for characters who clearly aren't meant to be mages but needed a spell list like everyone else. The concept of low hit, low mt, low uses, high crit spells is difficult to make good use of. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough.
Arguably wind magic is also close to the worst it's ever been, but it's typically quite good, so that's not saying as much.

"Pairup" is definitely at its worst, but only because it was broken before. It's still very useful here.

... finally there are the Hero and Lord classes, which aren't unusable nor necessarily at their worst ever(lord especially not), but bring so little to the table that they may as well not have been there.

I would say wind magic is better here than it was in Path of Radiance, where the strongest wind spell had the might of an iron bow, and effective damage was only x2, meaning even when it was hitting a weakness, wind magic failed to significantly outperform thunder magic. I do agree that ice magic is pretty lousy here, though.

2 hours ago, Cysx said:

Fates' would be pretty close to balanced in my book if it didn't include dual guard. Complete invincibility every two or three fights, while difficult to plan around(which... isn't really a good thing either), is just way too strong.

I would say unlike was the case in Awakening, the opportunity cost is actually meaningful, which means there's less incentive to deploy units solely for the sake of being pair up bots.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say wind magic is better here than it was in Path of Radiance, where the strongest wind spell had the might of an iron bow, and effective damage was only x2, meaning even when it was hitting a weakness, wind magic failed to significantly outperform thunder magic.

Yeah, that's fair. Didn't have PoR in mind.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say unlike was the case in Awakening, the opportunity cost is actually meaningful, which means there's less incentive to deploy units solely for the sake of being pair up bots.

I think we can thank the nerf to 1-2 range for that. Either way, it definitely is less good than in Awakening, but it still enables some truly silly stuff. Ryoma in particular likely wouldn't be half as reliable without dual guard.
 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's good obviously, just you give up a fair bit for it too - you lose a player phase action from your paired unit most obviously, but also it's a notable offensive hit in both accuracy and not being able to benefit from support attacks. I'm definitely struck by the fact that there are some challenges in the game (like the room full of sorcerers in Conquest 26) which are distinctly easier to overcome using unpaired units. Though, certainly, I'd still use it even without the dual guard for the crit avoid boost and enemy-support-attack immunity (not to mention stats), so point taken that dual guard might be a bit much.

Part of why I lament this is that the choice between Pairup and Attack stance could genuinely have made Fates' general gameplay even better than it already is, if it was less one-sided. But I agree that it could definitely have been worse too.

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