Now that the DLC is over, which characters do you wish got in?

[Fire Emblem Fan]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I think I've made it clear that's not a conversation I actually want to have. As has been said, this isn't a thread for, nor have I ever attempted to make it one about, debating how mediocre The Last Story is or isn't.

Eh...

On 10/19/2021 at 3:01 AM, Jotari said:

just comes from a much better and even more under appreciated game.

 

On 10/20/2021 at 12:48 AM, Jotari said:

because you are wrong, The Last Story is mostly trash, though with a great final boss

 

On 10/20/2021 at 11:46 AM, Jotari said:

Still a bad game whether you like it or not though.

 

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

It is though.

You really did, though.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

No, it is. Like I literally say putting that issue aside. I'm being genuine.

No, it isn't. You can claim it all you want, but it's pretty clearly not true based on your own words that have been quoted more than once. You wanna actually back up your claim? Don't mention it again, at all, even as a rebuttal.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I would say the chain is far more of an associated weapon of his.

That's simply false, the literal gameplay of Pandora's Tower proves that. That's like saying the Holy Water bottle is more associated with Simon Belmont than his whip.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Piranha Plant I wouldn't gauge as an example of a fundamentally unworkable character. So long as you can accept it moving left to right. I think the most fundamentally unworkable character they implemented would be Duck Hunt as the dog has basically nothing going for it, but if the concept of the character is Duck Hunt Duo then it becomes quite a bit more workable, and that's kind of what they ended up with, trying to simulate somewhat the experience of playing Duck Hunt rather than playing the dog (with a minor smattering of summoning some characters from a completely unrelated game). And I guess thinking more on the idea, Fox and Captain Falcon right at the bengning were pretty unfamentally unworkable. And to a certain extent they aren't accurate representations of the characters, more so in Captain Falcon's case. I'm not sure if even would have gotten into Smash if they didn't already have a moveset made from him from when they were designing the game before making it a Nintendo All Stars Crossover. He kind of got Ganondorfed into the game just like Ganondorf did in Melee.

Well, there you go, then! More proof that Zael is absolutely possible and not too hard at all. As demonstrated, you can quickly come up with something basic but fitting, and the possibilities are open for more complicated things.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Like I said man, chill. There's no need to be emotional. We don't want Eclipse coming down on us.

I am chill. You haven't seen me un-chilled. You just didn't like being called out.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Now you've chosen to continue this conversation when you could have just as easily ignored me by talking about Zael and his potential, if that's something you seriously want to do, we can do it. If it's something you're actually not remotely interested in talking and you're just responding out of some form of illogical pride, then you can just stop responding. I'm not forcing you to do anything.

There goes that blame-shifting again. "You're wrong, but don't take it personally, you're also illogical, but don't reply!" No. You don't get to do that. It's beyond ridiculous now, to the point of edging that flaming line.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And there's where I have my issue. Gathering is completely absent, and that is a very fundamental trait for Zael. Not only is it the main conceit of the gameplay in The Last Story, but it's the main focus of the story too (albeit I don't think integrated too well, as the story doesn't seem to care what the power does, just that it's special, while it's literal function isn't all that amazing in practical reality, being that it encourages people to attack you). If Zael gets in without Gathering in some form then I see it as an illfit representation of both the character and The Last Story as a whole. Gathering is as fundamental to Zael as the Monado is to Shulk.

Gathering is as fundamental to Zael as costumes are for Mario, but you don't see Mario running around in the tanooki suit, or the yellow cape. And like I said...

14 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

a basic partially-thought out moveset:

And none of that even goes into any of the other weapons in the game, such as the aforementioned Joke ones, or the Mark of the Outsider, or any magic, or any team-based mechanics, or anything else that could easily be utilized by the Smash team.

...I willfully did not get into anything beyond basic.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well like, you're telling me to piss off, so you're not really acting otherwise.

I told you to bug off and piss off in specific sections that are pretty justified, as you kept telling me I'm wrong, as well as emotional, illogical, and trying to change the narrative to make it out like I'm attacking you or something. That's not gonna fly. Stop it.

[King Marth 64]

I think I got some that I would like to cover that I do think they should have been in Ultimate, but I do wish that I do hope that they might make it to appear in the next installment:

1. Mike Jones from StarTropics as the Newcomer Retro Fighter in Ultimate after Duck Hunt
2. Ms. Pac-Man as the Echo Fighter of Pac-Man
3. Funky Kong as Donkey Kong's Echo Fighter
4. Black Shadow as Captain Falcon's Echo Fighter or the newcomer since we did get three Villain Newcomers in Ultimate
5. Ninten as Ness's Echo Fighter
6. Impa as the next Zelda Newcomer
7. Shantae
8. 2nd SNK Franchise Fighter that I feel like it should have been included in Fighter Pass Vol. 2 since Kazuya did get in as the 2nd Bandai Namco Franchise Rep and even Steve is the 2nd Microsoft Franchise Rep. (I usually thought that SNK would get the similar treatment for Challenger Pack 11 like Sakurai adding every 3rd Party Companies' two Franchises each in the roster - This was before Sora was revealed)

Edited October 21, 2021 by King Marth 64

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Eh...

You really did, though.

No, it isn't. You can claim it all you want, but it's pretty clearly not true based on your own words that have been quoted more than once. You wanna actually back up your claim? Don't mention it again, at all, even as a rebuttal.

My own words that you also keep quoting say that I don't want to discuss the issue. You're the one pushing it. Even after other users and an admin have told you to stop. Do you even know what you're trying to achieve by arguing this point? Do you just want to hear me say The Last Story is a bad game repeatedly? Because I'm not going to say it's a good game just to satisfy your ego, and, while I'm open minded enough to allow someone to change my mind, I'm not willing or interested in having a debate about it's quality in this topic with you. So with those two points clarified, what are you trying to achieve?

Quote

That's simply false, the literal gameplay of Pandora's Tower proves that. That's like saying the Holy Water bottle is more associated with Simon Belmont than his whip.

Yes, the literal gameplay of Pandora's Tower that has you using the whip all the time, and doesn't even require you to use the sword (personally I favored the scythe, best coverage as a weapon).

Quote

Well, there you go, then! More proof that Zael is absolutely possible and not too hard at all. As demonstrated, you can quickly come up with something basic but fitting, and the possibilities are open for more complicated things.

I don't think you're consciously doing it (because I think I have riled you up despite your claims to the contrary, because you're acting like someone who's been annoyed), but you're strawmanning my argument. I never said Zael was impossible to implement. I said that Aeron has more potential and that adapting Zael's main gimmick would be challenging.

Quote

Gathering is as fundamental to Zael as costumes are for Mario, but you don't see Mario running around in the tanooki suit, or the yellow cape. And like I said...

That's not true of Mario though. The core gameplay focus of Mario games are platforming. The suits aren't in many of the games and only serve to visualize the power ups. Which Mario does have in Smash. You specifically mention his Yellow Cape, but have you not seen that it's his side special?

Quote

I told you to bug off and piss off in specific sections that are pretty justified, as you kept telling me I'm wrong, as well as emotional, illogical, and trying to change the narrative to make it out like I'm attacking you or something. That's not gonna fly. Stop it.

 

Quote

There goes that blame-shifting again. "You're wrong, but don't take it personally, you're also illogical, but don't reply!" No. You don't get to do that. It's beyond ridiculous now, to the point of edging that flaming line.

What am I blaming you for? I'm not blaming you for anything. I'm not laying any fault at your feet. I haven't insulted you or said you're wrong for liking the things you like. Those are things you derived from my words that I didn't actually say. Now think carefully about what I'm going to say next. Why are you replying to me? Seriously, consider it, I'm not trying to be condescending or antagonistic. Are you getting any form of enjoyment by replying to me and talking about Zael or Aeron? Or is it just pride? That's not a diversion or shifting blame (remember, there is no blame, I'm not saying you're at fault for anything). Because for me it's the former, yes, I am enjoying this conversation as both characters have interesting reasons to be implemented into Smash. I think Aeron would be the easier of the two and comes from the superior game, that's my stance. I don't hate Zael or have any bias for him, and I'm not some kind of shill for Aeron. He probably wouldn't even make my top 10, I only brought him up because the two characters are connected through Operation Rainfall. So that's my stance, my actual stance. I didn't say Zael is impossible to implement, I didn't say you're wrong for liking the things you like or that your wrong for wanting certain characters in the game.  I did say The Last Story is a bad game (and I stand by that statement), but why should you care what I think about it? I don't care if you think it's a good game, I'll voice my disagreement on the topic, and might even make a discussion about it at the appropriate time and place, but if you think it's the greatest game ever crafted by mortal hands then good for you. It doesn't effect me in the slightest. And despite thinking it's trashy, I did enjoy the game, there are things to like in it.

So, if you can't disseminate that and just see me as insincere shit poster who's out to get you, then you can stop responding. Literally no one is going to think less of you if you choose to ignore me. If, on the other hand, you can meet me half way with what I am saying, and you have any interesting ideas as to how Zael could function while retaining the core concept of his game, then great, I want hear what you have to say.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Fire Emblem Fan]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

You're the one pushing it.

I absolutely am not, if you go back and look you'll see that I've only been responding to you.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Even after other users and an admin have told you to stop.

This is another bug off moment with your refusal to own up to your own crap. Other users also told you to stop, yet here you are.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Because I'm not going to say it's a good game just to satisfy your ego

And not once have I asked you to, I only disagreed. Don't you dare try putting yet another bogus spin to try and make this an ego thing. The only thing I said was that I, I think it's good, and disagree about it being bad. Bug right the ever-living cheese off with that one.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

(because I think I have riled you up despite your claims to the contrary, because you're acting like someone who's been annoyed)

I'm acting like someone calling you out, nothing more. I'll repeat: You just didn't like it.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

but you're strawmanning my argument. I never said Zael was impossible to implement. I said that Aeron has more potential and that adapting Zael's main gimmick would be challenging.

I most certainly am not. You said that Zael would be too difficult to implement, in fact your exact words were "Thats' not something you really can do outside of building a character designed for team battles." I pointed out that that simply isn't true, and that's supported by several other characters that would also have been thought of as too difficult to implement that did end up making the roster. Like Duck Hunt, as you yourself mentioned. That's not strawmanning anything.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's not true of Mario though.

It is, though. The costume power-ups fundamentally change the way you progress, and are even used as the only way to progress in some games.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

The suits aren't in many of the games

This is false. The only main Mario platformers that don't have a costume of some kind are Super Mario Bros. 2 (which is Doki Doki Panic anyway) and Sunshine (at least that I can recall). SMB, SMB3, World, 64, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, 3D Land, 3D World, the New Super Mario games, and Odyssey ALL have some form of costume, even if Odyssey's is more possession (and even then, you can buy cosmetic outfits).

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

and only serve to visualize the power ups.

That isn't really true and is far too much of a reduction. The Frog suit gives him frog-like abilities, for example. The Wing Cap literally gives you wings to fly, and the Yellow Cape gives you a cape like a superhero to fly. The Cloud outfit in Galaxy gives you clouds to hop on. You aren't gonna roll around as a big rock with the Hammer suit, you get to roll around as a big rock because you got the Rock power-up. It's specifically themed.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

You specifically mention his Yellow Cape, but have you not seen that it's his side special?

I didn't say he didn't use it, I said he didn't run around in it. Does he have an alternate outfit with his cape? No. The Frog or Tanooki suits? No. As for gameplay itself, does he spin the cape for damage or fly with the cape like he does in World? No, he does not. He swings it at you like a bull fighter, which does not give a good or accurate representation of the cape. The only power-up that's really represented is the Fire Flower, and FLUDD if you really wanna stretch it.

This is something they do with just about every character and the abilities they have. It's worth applause when they can really accurately portray a power-up or ability in the moveset, like with the Belmonts, but they're clearly gonna be heavily modified as needed. Zael's and Aeron's abilities wouldn't be any different.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

but why should you care what I think about it? I don't care if you think it's a good game

I don't care if you think it's a bad game, and...

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'll voice my disagreement on the topic

...this is literally all I did. My exact words were "I'd disagree, Pandora's Tower is good but I'd say The Last Story is a much better game. Zael trumps Aeron, for me." That was it, that was the entire post! You're exact reply in regards to that was "because you are wrong, The Last Story is mostly trash, though with a great final boss".

If you still can't see the problem with that, if you still can't own up to your own fault, if you still can't see how you are the one who kept pushing that topic, then I dunno what else to say. It's mind-boggling.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

What am I blaming you for?

I've gone over this in every single one of my posts, and not just for the off-topic "is TLS good or bad" stuff, but for the other topics of this conversation as well. You literally quoted part of the problem. I'm not repeating myself again and again and again for your ego (to use your own words). If you still aren't seeing the problem, then you really are just tone deaf to your own voice.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I absolutely am not, if you go back and look you'll see that I've only been responding to you.

This is another bug off moment with your refusal to own up to your own crap. Other users also told you to stop, yet here you are.

And not once have I asked you to, I only disagreed. Don't you dare try putting yet another bogus spin to try and make this an ego thing. The only thing I said was that I, I think it's good, and disagree about it being bad. Bug right the ever-living cheese off with that one.

I'm acting like someone calling you out, nothing more. I'll repeat: You just didn't like it.

I most certainly am not. You said that Zael would be too difficult to implement, in fact your exact words were "Thats' not something you really can do outside of building a character designed for team battles." I pointed out that that simply isn't true, and that's supported by several other characters that would also have been thought of as too difficult to implement that did end up making the roster. Like Duck Hunt, as you yourself mentioned. That's not strawmanning anything.

It is, though. The costume power-ups fundamentally change the way you progress, and are even used as the only way to progress in some games.

This is false. The only main Mario platformers that don't have a costume of some kind are Super Mario Bros. 2 (which is Doki Doki Panic anyway) and Sunshine (at least that I can recall). SMB, SMB3, World, 64, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, 3D Land, 3D World, the New Super Mario games, and Odyssey ALL have some form of costume, even if Odyssey's is more possession (and even then, you can buy cosmetic outfits).

That isn't really true and is far too much of a reduction. The Frog suit gives him frog-like abilities, for example. The Wing Cap literally gives you wings to fly, and the Yellow Cape gives you a cape like a superhero to fly. The Cloud outfit in Galaxy gives you clouds to hop on. You aren't gonna roll around as a big rock with the Hammer suit, you get to roll around as a big rock because you got the Rock power-up. It's specifically themed.

I didn't say he didn't use it, I said he didn't run around in it. Does he have an alternate outfit with his cape? No. The Frog or Tanooki suits? No. As for gameplay itself, does he spin the cape for damage or fly with the cape like he does in World? No, he does not. He swings it at you like a bull fighter, which does not give a good or accurate representation of the cape. The only power-up that's really represented is the Fire Flower, and FLUDD if you really wanna stretch it.

This is something they do with just about every character and the abilities they have. It's worth applause when they can really accurately portray a power-up or ability in the moveset, like with the Belmonts, but they're clearly gonna be heavily modified as needed. Zael's and Aeron's abilities wouldn't be any different.

I don't care if you think it's a bad game, and...

...this is literally all I did. My exact words were "I'd disagree, Pandora's Tower is good but I'd say The Last Story is a much better game. Zael trumps Aeron, for me." That was it, that was the entire post! You're exact reply in regards to that was "because you are wrong, The Last Story is mostly trash, though with a great final boss".

If you still can't see the problem with that, if you still can't own up to your own fault, if you still can't see how you are the one who kept pushing that topic, then I dunno what else to say. It's mind-boggling.

I've gone over this in every single one of my posts, and not just for the off-topic "is TLS good or bad" stuff, but for the other topics of this conversation as well. You literally quoted part of the problem. I'm not repeating myself again and again and again for your ego (to use your own words). If you still aren't seeing the problem, then you really are just tone deaf to your own voice.

Okay instead of reading any of that, because at this point I don't much care about addressing your points if you're going to act like this, I'm just going to repeat that one question. Are you genuinely enjoying this conversation, or are you replying out of a misplaced sense of pride?

[Perkilator]

Okay, I think we need to stop this side conversation to avoid derailing the thread.

[Jotari]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:08 PM, Perkilator said:

Okay, I think we need to stop this side conversation to avoid derailing the thread.

Agreed. And to get my posting off topic, I'll list some other characters I'd like to see in addition to Pig Beast Ganon.  In no particular order.

*Malos from Xenoblade 2 as a Shulk Echo. He has a nice enough design and voice actor, and just in general I think it's be cool to make an Echo who is a villain of a hero. In terms of making him distinct from Shulk, I think you could just replace Shell's neutral special with a powerful offensive attack, like Monaco Eater. So he could exist as an option for players who like Shulk's moveset, but haven't quite gotten the hang of using the Monaco Arts.

*Kamek from the Yoshi series. It's minor and pointless, but it sort of bothers me that Yoshi reps his own series and isn't just considered a Mario character. Yoshi as a series has been around in Smash since the beginning yet has never received a second rep. I think Kamek would do well to right that incongruity. He's a pretty important character  not only in the dedicated Yoshi games, but just in the Mario series overall. Plus more magic users is always nice. There's actually shockingly few mages in Smash.

*Balder from Bayonetta. I seem to be the only one who wants this. Balder is a great character for Smash. He wields a spear (technically a glaive). He has has telekinesis. He has super speed, light magic, fire magic and a whole bunch of other things. He's a hero, he's a villain and he's just generally pretty cool.

*Jeanne, also from Bayonetta, as a Bayonetta Echo. This one is so obvious I'm actually somewhat surprised they didn't do it. Because in the Bayonetta games themself, Jeanne pretty much is the exact idea of an Echo of Bayonetta. No suggestions for making herbdifferent to Bayonetta (as she plays pretty identically in game), so I would accept an Alf style alternate costume instead.

*Phoenix Wright, from Ace Attorney. A pretty common pick and for good reason. I hope if he does get in they don't just post over his Marvel vs Capcom moveset like most fan made moveset tend to do.

*Travis Touchdown from No More Heroes. The character himself would just generally love the idea of being in Smash. His moveset might be a bit on the boring side though.

*Saki from Sin and Punishment. I really, really like the Sin and Punishment series (if you can call two games a series) and Treasure as a company overall has eternally deserved more affection. They're retired now, unfortunately, so that probably puts their IPs into questionable territory. Some might say Isa has a more chance to get in as he has the jet pack and charge attack, making him a more interesting fighter, but Saki has a superior design imo, so I'd be more interested in seeing him. Though and Isa (and Airan and Kachi and partial ruffian Saki) alt wouldn't go astray.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Jotari

[Fire Emblem Fan]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

if you're going to act like this

Piss off, this is part of the problem. This is exactly the kind of bs blame-shifting I'm talking about. You're being an ass and continuously trying to shift it to someone else. Own up to your shit and stop acting like you're some blameless saint. I simply will not stand for this kind of toxic, manipulative bull.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

a misplaced sense of pride?

I'll repeat:

14 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Don't you dare try putting yet another bogus spin to try and make this an ego thing.

 

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Okay instead of reading any of that, because at this point I don't much care about addressing your points

You don't care to address anything because of how tone deaf you are to yourself. You've refused to take any responsibility for your crap and continuously tried pushing me down, and you hate being called out on it.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Piss off, this is part of the problem. This is exactly the kind of bs blame-shifting I'm talking about. You're being an ass and continuously trying to shift it to someone else. Own up to your shit and stop acting like you're some blameless saint. I simply will not stand for this kind of toxic, manipulative bull.

I'll repeat:

 

You don't care to address anything because of how tone deaf you are to yourself. You've refused to take any responsibility for your crap and continuously tried pushing me down, and you hate being called out on it.

I don't hate anything. I'm completely fine. But I think from you're refusal to answer and insistence on just trying to attack me that the answer is that it is just some kind of pride thing for you. Because if you were enjoying it you would just come out and say it, there'd be no reason to side step or deflect. So I'll give you the out you're probably looking for at this point, because you're obviously not deriving any pleasure from talking to me and probably want it to end. So that's it, the end. Conversation over. I won't respond any more. You can tell yourself you win if that matters to you. Either way neither of us have anything to say on the matter. At least I don't. I expect you'll probably make another comment of some sort because at this point you just won't abide me having the last word. All I can say in pre-response to that is "Fair enough. I'm not who you think I am, but if that's how you feel, I won't try to change your mind. Have a nice day." And yes, I mean that sincerely, I wish you well, though I know you likely won't believe me. Either way we both spend time here so we'll see each other again. I won't be holding anything against you, I hope you can do the same.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Fire Emblem Fan]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

But I think from you're refusal to answer and insistence on just trying to attack me that the answer is that it is just some kind of pride thing for you. Because if you were enjoying it you would just come out and say it, there'd be no reason to side step or deflect.

I did answer, you even quoted some of the answers, you just aren't liking the answers you're getting. And you straight up would not read other answers, by your own admission. There was no attack, you just will not take a step back and read your own words to see the problem you keep side-stepping. I literally only responded to what you said and I was very justified in doing so; you were the one refusing and side-stepping and deflecting. There is no pride or ego thing despite your insistence on trying to deflect it into that. You simply are not listening. As I said, you're being tone deaf to your own words.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

You can tell yourself you win if that matters to you.

There is no winning, no one wins this, it isn't a contest. You're either genuinely not understanding it or refusing to.

[eclipse]

@Jotari @Fire Emblem Fan cut it out.  If I see either of you in this topic again, it had best be to answer the topic itself.  Otherwise, the next warning you'll both receive is a very long suspension.  Do I make myself clear?

[Fabulously Olivier]

Dante

Any Nihon Falcom rep (Adol, Estelle, Rean, Olivert, Dana)

Yuri Lowell

 

 

I was just plain unhappy with FP2 as a whole, tbh.