Comparing Miranda and Olwen

[MuteMousou]

I know that Ilios vs Olwen was a meme so I just had the idea of comparing Olwen to base F mage knight and base Miranda to see the difference, because at a glance olwen's stats don't seem that different from shanam's who is literally just 1 luck away from base M swordmaster stats.

So Olwen's base stats are
24 HP
5 STR
10 MAG
8 SKL
10 SPD
5 LCK
4 DEF
5 CON

base female mage knight
18 HP
3 STR
4 MAG
4 SKL
5 SPD
3 DEF
4 CON

the difference between Olwen and F mage knight is 6 hp 6 magic 2 str 4 skl 5 spd 1 def 1 con

Now, let's look at the funnier comparison. Miranda is widely regarded as the worst character or at least one of the worst characters in FE5, so I think this should put into perspective what this means
Miranda base:
19 HP
0 STR
7 MAG
2 SKL 
8 SPD
7 LCK
1 DEF
3 CON

at base Olwen only has 5 hp, 3 str, 3 magic, 6 skl, 2 speed, 4 defense over Miranda
However, keep in mind Olwen is promoted, Mage knight gives 3 STR, 2 MAG, 3 SKL, 1 SPD, 3 DEF and 1 CON
so, without the promo bonuses, the only difference between Olwen and Miranda is 1 MAG, 3 SKL, 1 SPD, 1 DEF, 5 HP
also keep in mind that base Miranda has 2 more luck than base Olwen
Average stats for Miranda if you promote her at 10 are 22 HP, 3 STR, 12 MAG, 7 SKL, 12 SPD, 8 LCK, 4 DEF, 4 CON
This doesn't take into account you could just use scrolls on miranda and increase her stat gains, but the fact that she on average is still better at the earliest promotion than Olwen in every stat except STR and HP and DEF without any scrolls is pretty funny. 

You could also say that Miranda's base stats are pretty alright and she also joins later so they're higher, but keep in mind that the only difference between base Miranda and base Asbel, who joins far before either Olwen or Miranda, is that Miranda has 3 MAG, 1 SPD, 2 LCK, and 1 DEF over base Asbel. Miranda has 3 less hp and 1 less skill than base Asbel also. 

So, the conclusion here should be pretty evident. Either Olwen is really terrible or Miranda is actually better than we thought she was, or maybe both. Of course, Miranda does join later, meaning her having equal stats to Olwen means less, but having 12 magic and 12 speed, in say, chapter 17B or 18 would let Miranda one round KO almost every generic enemy in those chapters aside from a few using a wind tome (which she can also use before promotion!) I know that Olwen has the direthunder and this pairs well with vantage, but the only utility I feel like this meaningfully offers to Olwen is that she can use it to capture enemies, possibly more effectively than anyone else in the game (but mostly only in outdoor sections of course). Otherwise, a brave tome does not offer much worth that can still be done by any other mage with a wind tome or something worse like a thunder or fire tome maybe, almost everything is going to die in one round of combat from every mage in this game provided they can double and have a decent tome (of course a lot of bosses can't be by Salem or Sara maybe,  but Asbel can ORKO every enemy in the game except 3 or so with the grafcalibur reliably). Ilios can also use the brave sword, master sword (which he joins with) or king sword to capture, and he has much great defenses than Olwen while only having 1 less base magic. So if Olwen's base stats are hardly better than who is largely considered the worst character in the game and the only unique thing she has is a tome that really doesn't offer much in terms of anything that almost every other mage can't already do, then what is the point of ever using her over Ilios?

[Seafarer]

On 10/28/2021 at 3:42 AM, MuteMousou said:

So, the conclusion here should be pretty evident. Either Olwen is really terrible or Miranda is actually better than we thought she was, or maybe both.

Or, you know, neither.

Your analysis kinda ignores that Olwen has a horse for 6 chapters before Miranda even exists, and probably has that over Miranda for a couple of chapters after that as well. FWIW, I got Miranda promoted (10/1) in chapter 20.

In other words, you're putting in 500 exp and a Master Seal to get a unit with slightly better offensive stats (but slightly worse bulk) compared to a unit you had ten chapters ago. (Also, if you give Olwen 4 levels over those ten chapters, Miranda's Mag/Spd lead is completely erased on average.)

Miranda's not bad because of stats. She's bad because she joins late, unpromoted, with no special utility or overkill combat. Olwen has cavalry and Dire Thunder utility, and joins midgame.

[MuteMousou]

4 hours ago, Seafarer said:

Or, you know, neither.

And so, your conclusion instead is what?

4 hours ago, Seafarer said:

Your analysis kinda ignores that Olwen has a horse for 6 chapters before Miranda even exists, and probably has that over Miranda for a couple of chapters after that as well. FWIW, I got Miranda promoted (10/1) in chapter 20.

I'm aware she joins earlier and with a thing Miranda doesn't have initially. Joining before someone else doesn't make you automatically better, Galzus is probably one of the most useful characters in the entire game despite only being around for 3 chapters max. Either way, it doesn't take very much effort to give Miranda 5 levels which you will also have scrolls for at this point to make her better if you want, compared to Olwen who will take forever to level up at all and has only 18 levels max with worse growth rates
 

4 hours ago, Seafarer said:

She's bad because she joins late, unpromoted, with no special utility or overkill combat.

She joins with the closest fire rank to meteor, she only needs 65 fire uses + promo to get it. Everyone else who uses fire needs about twice as much wexp to get there. She's also the only magic user who has wrath and a non-zero PCC, so she will always crit on enemy phase compared to Olwen who will never have more than 25 crit with dire thunder unless you somehow get her to double anything with it which requires at minimum 16 speed, and even then that would only double enemies with 0 AS who would be easily killed by basically anyone anyway. Olwen needs 25 magic to be able to ORKO gustav with dire thunder, unless she crits which can never be more than 25% (unless she has wrath which requires not using vantage).

4 hours ago, Seafarer said:

Olwen has cavalry and Dire Thunder utility, and joins midgame.

What utility does that even give that can't be done better by many other characters in the game for much less investment?

Edited December 5, 2021 by MuteMousou

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/27/2021 at 9:42 AM, MuteMousou said:

So, the conclusion here should be pretty evident. Either Olwen is really terrible or Miranda is actually better than we thought she was, or maybe both.

I find that to be a very hard sell when Miranda doesn't have anything to make her stand out.

On 10/27/2021 at 9:42 AM, MuteMousou said:

This doesn't take into account you could just use scrolls on miranda and increase her stat gains, but the fact that she on average is still better at the earliest promotion than Olwen in every stat except STR and HP and DEF without any scrolls is pretty funny. 

Olwen can use scrolls too, so that's not a point for Miranda.

1 hour ago, MuteMousou said:

Joining before someone else doesn't make you automatically better, Galzus is probably one of the most useful characters in the entire game despite only being around for 3 chapters max.

I don't value availability all that much, but... in this case, I'd consider Olwen better easy.

1 hour ago, MuteMousou said:

She's also the only magic user who has wrath and a non-zero PCC, so she will always crit on enemy phase

Wrath is only useful if you can actually survive to counter, which Miranda has issues doing against physical units.

1 hour ago, MuteMousou said:

She joins with the closest fire rank to meteor, she only needs 65 fire uses + promo to get it. Everyone else who uses fire needs about twice as much wexp to get there.

That's nothing special when Blizzard is better, mainly because it can put enemies to sleep. Which, in this game, means they're out of commission for the whole chapter, and can be easily captured.

1 hour ago, MuteMousou said:

Either way, it doesn't take very much effort to give Miranda 5 levels which you will also have scrolls for at this point to make her better if you want, compared to Olwen who will take forever to level up at all and has only 18 levels max with worse growth rates

Miranda's growths are about the only thing she has over Olwen... but since stats only cap at 20, that isn't as meaningful as you think. Also, Sara joins around the same time, but is much better due to being in a better class (oh, and as an extra kick in the face, Sara also has Wrath... along with Paragon and Miracle).

1 hour ago, MuteMousou said:

What utility does that even give that can't be done better by many other characters in the game for much less investment?

I could ask the same of Miranda, to be frank. What can a trained Miranda do that other, better mages cannot? Because when you start way behind everyone else and don't have any way to stand out (Wrath is great, but again, it only can be useful if you can survive to counter), using you is a hard sell.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Seafarer]

1 hour ago, MuteMousou said:

And so, your conclusion instead is what?

I'm aware she joins earlier and with a thing Miranda doesn't have initially. Joining before someone else doesn't make you automatically better, Galzus is probably one of the most useful characters in the entire game despite only being around for 3 chapters max. Either way, it doesn't take very much effort to give Miranda 5 levels which you will also have scrolls for at this point to make her better if you want, compared to Olwen who will take forever to level up at all and has only 18 levels max with worse growth rates
 

She joins with the closest fire rank to meteor, she only needs 65 fire uses + promo to get it. Everyone else who uses fire needs about twice as much wexp to get there. She's also the only magic user who has wrath and a non-zero PCC, so she will always crit on enemy phase compared to Olwen who will never have more than 25 crit with dire thunder unless you somehow get her to double anything with it which requires at minimum 16 speed, and even then that would only double enemies with 0 AS who would be easily killed by basically anyone anyway. Olwen needs 25 magic to be able to ORKO gustav with dire thunder, unless she crits which can never be more than 25% (unless she has wrath which requires not using vantage).

What utility does that even give that can't be done better by many other characters in the game for much less investment?

My conclusion is that Miranda and Olwen are both judged pretty well on their merits by the community.

More horses is almost always a good thing. A unit with 2-range and super-Canto is pretty much always going to be able to safely snipe something if you want them to. to say nothing of rescue-drop utility. And you mentioned yourself that Dire Thunder gives her a decent ability to capture things, which is backed up by her being mounted.

Meanwhile, by the time Miranda's off the ground, you're in the part of the game that's dominated by Warp. Suddenly, having 8 Mov is no longer amazing. Olwen's utility drops off a cliff here too, but at least she's had maps to contribute.

And... less investment? Olwen joins with both a horse and Dire Thunder. That requires zero investment! You get her in 11x, and then she does what she does.

(lol at Meteor being your argument for Miranda's "unique utility". Meteor is quite literally irrelevant.)

I'm not saying Olwen is as good as Asbel or Galzus or the actual good units in Thracia. But Miranda is worse, later-joining Olwen. There's no way that's ever going to be as good as actual Olwen.

[MuteMousou]

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Olwen can use scrolls too, so that's not a point for Miranda.

My point is that she levels up much more easily, and also you'll have more scrolls at Miranda's join time also.

 

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Wrath is only useful if you can actually survive to counter, which Miranda has issues doing against physical units.

She still has it though, it makes her a better combat unit than Sara who is easier to kill and has 0 PCC

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's nothing special when Blizzard is better, mainly because it can put enemies to sleep. Which, in this game, means they're out of commission for the whole chapter, and can be easily captured.

Being able to get any siege tome on its own is pretty good, meteor is much more common than blizzard and bolting also. Most characters who can use any siege tome ever take very long to get it unless you are Ilios, Olwen, or Ced.
 

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Miranda's growths are about the only thing she has over Olwen... but since stats only cap at 20, that isn't as meaningful as you think. Also, Sara joins around the same time, but is much better due to being in a better class (oh, and as an extra kick in the face, Sara also has Wrath... along with Paragon and Miracle).

They are two different characters who join with pretty similar stats but one has more levels to gain and higher growth rates. Olwen's starting stats are god awful for a pre-promoted unit, so I would say the growth difference is significant here. Also, yeah of course, Sara is one of the best characters in the game, but not because combat but moreso for staves, regardless the point of this was to compare two characters who are not even close to being the best in the game.  Miranda will still have about equal or better combat than Sara for having higher defensive stats and more than 0 PCC

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I could ask the same of Miranda, to be frank. What can she do that other, better mages cannot? Because when you start way behind everyone else and don't have any way to stand out (Wrath is great, but again, it only can be useful if you can survive to counter), using you is a hard sell.

The point of this comparison is to show that if we're comparing a character to what is largely considered a trash heap and find that they're not really that different, then it's not necessarily about one or the other being better, more that they're both trash heaps.

Edited December 5, 2021 by MuteMousou

[MuteMousou]

16 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

My conclusion is that Miranda and Olwen are both judged pretty well on their merits by the community.

Their merits being what? And how does the community judge it?
 

20 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

More horses is almost always a good thing. A unit with 2-range and super-Canto is pretty much always going to be able to safely snipe something if you want them to. to say nothing of rescue-drop utility. And you mentioned yourself that Dire Thunder gives her a decent ability to capture things, which is backed up by her being mounted.

I mean, it wouldn't take much for Miranda to have that also, and if not you can just pick her up with someone else afterward, I don't see this as being incredibly valuable.

23 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

And... less investment? Olwen joins with both a horse and Dire Thunder. That requires zero investment! You get her in 11x, and then she does what she does.

(lol at Meteor being your argument for Miranda's "unique utility". Meteor is quite literally irrelevant.)

lol at you saying that direthunder makes her better when I already said it was bad. Direthunder is quite literally irrelevant.

[Shadow Mir]

14 hours ago, MuteMousou said:

She still has it though, it makes her a better combat unit than Sara who is easier to kill and has 0 PCC

You said it yourself; Sara's combat ain't her main selling point, it's her having staves. And Paragon.

14 hours ago, MuteMousou said:

The point of this comparison is to show that if we're comparing a character to what is largely considered a trash heap and find that they're not really that different, then it's not necessarily about one or the other being better, more that they're both trash heaps.

Sounds like you just refuse to understand WHY Miranda is a trash heap. I mean, needing 5 levels and a Master Seal just to barely be better than base Olwen is embarrassing, considering that odds are Olwen is not at base by the time Miranda gets there. Simply put, Miranda is a worse Olwen that joins later and needs to be babysat first. I'd rather actually have Olwen than a worse Olwen that needs babying first and has nothing unique to her name, thank you very much. Anyway, my point isn't that Olwen is a beast, but rather that Miranda is just really really bad, considering that she needs to be babied just to... fail to significantly outclass a so-called (according to you) "trash heap" at base.

15 hours ago, MuteMousou said:

Olwen's starting stats are god awful for a pre-promoted unit, so I would say the growth difference is significant here.

And your point is?

[shanni20]

Miranda may be "bad" but this is Thracia if you want to use a unit they will be good if you just feed them. Olwen has better availability and comes with a mount so even disregarding dire thunder of course she's better, but the point of Miranda being better than we thought is true somewhat, obviously her availability is ass but she's not really hard to use or bad if you can get her to promotion

[Seafarer]

13 hours ago, MuteMousou said:

Their merits being what? And how does the community judge it?
 

I mean, it wouldn't take much for Miranda to have that also, and if not you can just pick her up with someone else afterward, I don't see this as being incredibly valuable.

lol at you saying that direthunder makes her better when I already said it was bad. Direthunder is quite literally irrelevant.

Okay, so you're ignoring the context you yourself provided and making bad-faith arguments. I'm going to leave this to Mir.

[MuteMousou]

1 hour ago, Seafarer said:

Okay, so you're ignoring the context you yourself provided and making bad-faith arguments. I'm going to leave this to Mir.

I mean, I literally just used the same argument as you.
 

Edited December 5, 2021 by MuteMousou

[MuteMousou]

2 hours ago, shanni20 said:

Miranda may be "bad" but this is Thracia if you want to use a unit they will be good if you just feed them. Olwen has better availability and comes with a mount so even disregarding dire thunder of course she's better, but the point of Miranda being better than we thought is true somewhat, obviously her availability is ass but she's not really hard to use or bad if you can get her to promotion

Eh, I would say that the "any unit can be good" is applicable to any FE game, it's just easier in this game than most. If you count recruitments factoring into how "good" someone is, I would say Olwen's is  more out of the way and tedious than almost any other character in the game, possibly more than Xavier, though I guess maybe you could say that also applies to B route depending on how you look at it? Olwen both requires you to go to an optional chapter and also requires you slowly walk the only character who can recruit her to recruit her (and he also joins away from your party, meaning you can't warp to make it faster) while messily fighting a bunch of soldiers in the way, during which time Olwen can just die if you're unlucky enough lol (also you save thunder sword uses if you don't recruit Olwen).

Not to mention that her being alive also prevents using a better character later (you could just use Olwen and then have her die later, though).But, Miranda doesn't require a kind of annoying gaiden chapter requirement or an annoying recruitment. However, I'm not really sure who I would say is better out of Olwen and Miranda, neither of them really provide much of anything that can't be gotten more easily in a better character, so the only real reason to use either of them over Asbel, Homer, Linoan, Sara, Macha, Halvan, Ralph, Dean, Fred, and so on, is just because you want to. I do guess Miranda has wrath which can be helpful at killing things she otherwise couldn't, so maybe that balances out whatever the direthunder would give Olwen.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Much as I like Miranda, and have used her (even on an ironman), she isn't very good, and when I did use her it was just for funsies. A few things to note here is that her availability is basically two chapters lower, as she not only comes weaponless fairly late into chapter 16B, but that chapter has some notable dangers to it that make babying her extra dangerous, and in 17B her magic starts low enough that the silence staff priests can leave her unable to attack. Sure there are ways of mitigating these issues, but only with costly staff that aren't worth the minimal gains. Her main benefit is being the unit closest to using Meteor at base, which is nice, especially with how available they are, but Olwen can reach bolting rank before Miranda even arrives. Also fire tomes in general are the most available around, and with 16 extra chapters to work with and only needing an extra 85 uses to catch up to her rank in that time, Asvel can reach Meteor rank if you really want to. Now she isn't the worst, put in the work and you get something useful, units like Shanam and Marty can't even claim that much...actually she reminds me a lot of Eda (another unit I used in my ironman, but for more practical purpose of all my other flyers dying), who is a lot of work to get anything out of, with some obviously better alternatives to her niche, but you do get something useful for all that work.

Olwen on the other hand may have terrible stats for her level, but Thracia 776 is the game where stats are least important thanks to the low cap and scroll abuse, meanwhile her personal weapons are much more valuable, especially with the Dire Thunder tome, which makes her one of the best units possible to use to capture bosses that get the monstrous +10 defense from thrones (or even just high defense enemies you want to capture...). Even her other personal weapon gives her a couple of niches, despite how late it comes, one of which being to send her into the middle of all the really late game dark mages (warping her in to deal with the group around the exit of 24x is particularly memorable to me) as the +10 magic and prayer skill makes her near invincible against then. This is all before mention her extra availability, and having a 4 PCC, and how incredibly easy it is to get her to Bolting rank.

[MasterJP28]

Ok so Miranda has growths and stats... no wait growths and potentially better stats. Being prepromoted, mounted, and have access to a brave tome spell that only Olwen can use is all you need to show that she's better than Miranda. Miranda also has Wrath but she's not a unit you want getting hit on enemy phase. You get Vantage on Chapter 12 which can be given to Olwen to go along with the brave tome. Oh and availability does matter to an extent.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 12/7/2021 at 9:14 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Now she isn't the worst, put in the work and you get something useful, units like Shanam and Marty can't even claim that much...actually she reminds me a lot of Eda (another unit I used in my ironman, but for more practical purpose of all my other flyers dying), who is a lot of work to get anything out of, with some obviously better alternatives to her niche, but you do get something useful for all that work.

I'm still in the middle of my first playthrough, and I realize "personal experience never is sufficient", but honestly? Marty is kicking ass for me. His high Con, in particular, makes him one of the best units for capturing heavy enemies. Sure, he doesn't double, but a Hammer is still usually enough to capture Armored enemies, and the Brave Axe is an option otherwise. His Hit rates are bleh, but having Charm and Dagdar nearby can compensate somewhat. Also just give him the Ced Scroll and Od Scroll and he'll suddenly have good Speed and Skill GG.

As for Miranda, she did an excellent job in chapter 18. She guarded that stairwell like it was nobody's business! No more punk-ass Soldiers got through on her watch, no-sirree!