Worst unit in each game?

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Bows are one of the best ways to deal with ninja hell in Conquest, aren't they? Unless I'm misremembering the weird six pointed triangle they have going on.

I misread it as you saying Takumi is a good unit in CQ, my bad.

6 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

In Birthright she doesn't really have either of those niches, but a level 1 Hayato literally comes later than she does, so its hard to rank her worse for that level deficit than you do Hayato.

Honestly I am surprised there isn't more talk about my own pick of Hayato in this Birthright discussion.

Hmmm, on the other hand, as Cysx has stated funnelling Mozus paralogue to Hayato would give you a more competent mage, who can either go Omnyoji for max dps or Oni Chieftain for a Horse Spirit induced tanking spree. He does hit Res and your "only" other options would be MagCorrin, Flame Shuriken Felicia/Saizo and Orochi. There´s Mitama but she a kid as well as Rhajat who well, if you are getting her, you are probably using Hayato. Oh yeah Great Master Azama with Bolt Naginata but weapon ranks. And Omnyoji Sakura I suppose.

Mozu on the other hand, I mean you are getting Setsuna (meh), Takumi and Reina for Archery purposes and the latter two would seem to me to be better units than the relatively wonky ones named above. And if we are being really cheeky with our reclasses I´d put up Kagero and Hana for Sniper candidates - the latter for survivability and the former for a bit of the same but greater accuracy - which if we have ´em S-Rank Takumi gives us Kiragi, who is Sniper Nr.2. Neither of them will perform much worse than Mozu. 

Quote

Whether she's good or not matters "less" when she's around either way, most of the crew's stats are predictable and you have so few combat units. You said the word puzzle and that's pretty much exactly what it is; a low reward puzzle that you can easily skip.
There was so much hyperbole around the character early on that I did put myself to the task, and all it really takes is to stay ahead of Ryoma in ch 4(specific but fully doable), and yeah, not use her as a pairup in ch 5 since it rids her of almost any exp/wexp gain. You don't retreat, or pair Kaze up with her either, that'd just be worse, instead you figure out a way to make things dead with her and Kaze attack stancing as much as possible. If done successfully, this is positive even for Kaze, but especially so for her (obviously). And the less you use "Corrin", the better.

You have to be proactive in both chapters so there's no major turn loss, the method is one turn slower in ch 5 iirc. There's not much of a reason not to do it from what I've seen, but at the same time, it really is just about making a mediocre -and route locked- unit slightly less mediocre, everyone else will be fine either way.

@Cysx This be your post- I managed to post this one before being finished and I can´t seem to go back to correctly quote you.

In respect to the bolded: Or you make the units that would still be fine even better - setting Corrin up to immediately promote with Dragon Fang at their disposal, for whatever class shenaningans you intend and it´s no like Kaze isn´t scrounging for a Str level up every time - granted Saizo and Kagero both exist. The fact that you have to bend over backwards to this degree to make a unit not good - because at that point why Mozu - but just sightly better is why I´d call her bad.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Imuabicus

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

In respect to the bolded: Or you make the units that would still be fine even better - setting Corrin up to immediately promote with Dragon Fang at their disposal, for whatever class shenaningans you intend and it´s no like Kaze isn´t scrounging for a Str level up every time - granted Saizo and Kagero both exist. The fact that you have to bend over backwards to this degree to make a unit not good - because at that point why Mozu - but just sightly better is why I´d call her bad.

Corrin I believe is considered promoted and cannot get much of any exp in ch5 on luna(aka 1exp on everything 'cept by killing the boss, which by all means they should), and Kaze, Sakura and Azura get nothing less by going with the "Rinkah" method; Kaze gets more wexp, in fact, because he attacks a lot more.
Corrin can build Dragonstone wexp to be fair, but they start at D and the highest rank dragonstone, is rank... C. And it comes much later.

Many puzzles are only complex until they're solved,  especially with the internet and all. We're also talking about a part of the game you can skip, reapplying the same results again and again the moment you've done it once.
Ch4 is a bit of a different story because someone has to visit the village and that person, who cannot be Kaze because you need the +1 mov pairup as often as possible, won't get to participate all that much in the first half, and if we're being honest, shouldn't be Corrin. So there's that. Rinkah starts one space ahead though, I don't remember if that mattered or not.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Cysx

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

Many puzzles are only complex until they're solved,  especially with the internet and all. We're also talking about a part of the game you can skip, reapplying the same results again and again the moment you've done it once.

The issue is that in general, it's better just to start a new game, especially if you're hoping to play another route instead. Which is to say, even if you went out of your way to have Rinkah do something in chapter 5, it's all for naught if you go to Conquest instead.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Cysx]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The issue is that in general, it's better just to start a new game, especially if you're hoping to play another route instead. Which is to say, even if you went out of your way to have Rinkah do something in chapter 5, it's all for naught if you go to Conquest instead.

I do restart every time myself, but it's not unavoidable tedium, and easier to re-do once you've figured it out once. So overall it's not that bad.

[Shadow Mir]

On 11/10/2021 at 2:05 AM, Cysx said:

I do restart every time myself, but it's not unavoidable tedium, and easier to re-do once you've figured it out once. So overall it's not that bad.

It may not be unavoidable tedium, but it's probably unrewarding tedium.

[Cysx]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It may not be unavoidable tedium, but it's probably unrewarding tedium.

Absolutely, and I've said as much. Then again, let's be real, this is generally not a major factor in how we as a community evaluate... Fire Emblem things. It doesn't make you miss out on more valuable resources, and it doesn't waste many turns. That's usually the bar, isn't it?

Just to put things back on the context track, this was to prove that Rinkah isn't reasonably doomed to be at E-rank in Ch 7. That's it. If the question has now switched to "is there a way that'd be fun to me to accomplish that?", then idk maybe not? Doing it will not magically repair your 3DS's R button, either.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Cysx

[brigandinefan]

Bastion is worse than both Shinon and Rolf in Path of Radiance. Seriously. In situations where Shinon/Rolf would take some damage, survive, and not counterattack, Bastion just dies instead. And he has nothing going for him in any way. His availability is worse than both Shinon and Rolf. He can't use staves. He can't even open chests/doors like weakling Sothe. Bastion is the absolute worst in the game, hands down. He has nothing going for him. No temporary usefulness like Shinon, no utility like Sothe, no potential okayness like Rolf. Nothing.

Did everyone just forget about Bastion? I'm stunned no one mentioned him.

[Shadow Mir]

8 minutes ago, brigandinefan said:

Bastion is worse than both Shinon and Rolf in Path of Radiance. Seriously. In situations where Shinon/Rolf would take some damage, survive, and not counterattack, Bastion just dies instead. And he has nothing going for him in any way. His availability is worse than both Shinon and Rolf. He can't use staves. He can't even open chests/doors like weakling Sothe. Bastion is the absolute worst in the game, hands down. He has nothing going for him. No temporary usefulness like Shinon, no utility like Sothe, no potential okayness like Rolf. Nothing.

Did everyone just forget about Bastion? I'm stunned no one mentioned him.

I would disagree because Rolf exists. Shinon at least has his early contributions, but Rolf has nothing going for him, especially since Path of Radiance is one of the worst games for archers.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, brigandinefan said:

Bastion is worse than both Shinon and Rolf in Path of Radiance. Seriously. In situations where Shinon/Rolf would take some damage, survive, and not counterattack, Bastion just dies instead. And he has nothing going for him in any way. His availability is worse than both Shinon and Rolf. He can't use staves. He can't even open chests/doors like weakling Sothe. Bastion is the absolute worst in the game, hands down. He has nothing going for him. No temporary usefulness like Shinon, no utility like Sothe, no potential okayness like Rolf. Nothing.

Did everyone just forget about Bastion? I'm stunned no one mentioned him.

I think people just forget about him because he comes at the end of the game in a bunch of other characters. Even if he were good he'd be competing for a new deployment slot with the underwhelming but okay Lucia, the probably-better-than-Astrid Geoffrey and the man-I-wish-she-came-sooner Elincia. I don't think people view him as bad because basically no one ever uses him to experience his theoretical suck.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Jotari

[FailWood]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Even if he were good he'd be competing for a new deployment slot with the underwhelming but okay Lucia, the probably-better-than-Astrid Geoffrey and the man-I-wish-she-came-sooner Elincia. I don't think people view him as bad because basically no one ever uses him to experience his theoretical suck.

I'd use Bastion over Lucia, but Geoffrey over both of them (except for the boulder map, which hits cavalry with a massive movement penalty).  You forgot Largo who also joins immediately after the 3 retainers.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, FailWood said:

I'd use Bastion over Lucia, but Geoffrey over both of them (except for the boulder map, which hits cavalry with a massive movement penalty).  You forgot Largo who also joins immediately after the 3 retainers.

I was thinking Calill and Largo came around the same time, but wasn't sure of their exact timing. I was also going to mention the dragons who you get pretty soon after too.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I was thinking Calill and Largo came around the same time, but wasn't sure of their exact timing. I was also going to mention the dragons who you get pretty soon after too.

Calill comes in chapter 20 (the Talrega chapter). Largo joins in chapter 25.

[Dark Holy Elf]

While Bastian is bad, he absolutely does not "just die instead" to things that Rolf/Shinon aren't countering.

Comparing the HM enemy stats of Chapter 24 (Bastian's joining chapter) to Bastian's base stats...

Bastian has 35 HP and 12 def. Enemies in this map have Atk stats ranging from 20 to 32. The weakest enemies 5HKO Bastian, the strongest 2HKO him. The most common figure appears to be around 27-28, which kills him in three hits. Not a single enemy on the map doubles him. His own offence back is bad in general, but notably he's great at killing wyverns (both unpromoted and promoted), who are actually slow enough for him to double AND easily 2HKOed by his wind spells. Since one of the only things Rolf/Shinon have going for them is their ability to kill wyverns, being matched by Bastian at this is embarrassing, since of course he can counter things and they can't.

He's pretty bad of course, and certainly one of the worst, but I don't think he's the outright worst.

[FailWood]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

While Bastian is bad, he absolutely does not "just die instead" to things that Rolf/Shinon aren't countering.

Comparing the HM enemy stats of Chapter 24 (Bastian's joining chapter) to Bastian's base stats...

Bastian has 35 HP and 12 def. Enemies in this map have Atk stats ranging from 20 to 32. The weakest enemies 5HKO Bastian, the strongest 2HKO him. The most common figure appears to be around 27-28, which kills him in three hits. Not a single enemy on the map doubles him. His own offence back is bad in general, but notably he's great at killing wyverns (both unpromoted and promoted), who are actually slow enough for him to double AND easily 2HKOed by his wind spells. Since one of the only things Rolf/Shinon have going for them is their ability to kill wyverns, being matched by Bastian at this is embarrassing, since of course he can counter things and they can't.

He's pretty bad of course, and certainly one of the worst, but I don't think he's the outright worst.

He also has the weapon ranks needed to use all of the siege tomes (besides Purge), so if you have them just sitting in your convoy he could use them, although Calill can do the same... while having higher base Speed and Magic... and joins 4 chapters earlier... and is 7 levels lower then him so she has more time to grow... wow, he really isn't good by comparison is he?  I still think Rolf is Path of Radiance's worst unit.  If you want to use bows just use (and later promote) Boyd, Astrid, or Geoffrey.  Astrid also has the potential to not grow well like Rolf, but unlike him, she has Paragon to make it known quick if you'll stick with her, has a horse for utility, and gains an additional weapon type upon promotion.

[Jotari]

Bastian has a high strength growth, I think not just for a mage but in general (it's 40% from what I can recall, and I think Path of Radiance is still at an era where 40% is quite decent overall). So I think they were intending for him to have the niche of knife mage. But putting knives on sages was just a really weird decision that failed so hard to be useful that I genuinely question what the reasoning was (which I made a thread about). Knives on sages was a silly idea, but it seems they were somewhat committing to it with Bastian, even if the end result was basically no enemy in the game he's not better off using a tome against.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 12/24/2021 at 1:32 AM, FailWood said:

Astrid also has the potential to not grow well like Rolf, but unlike him, she has Paragon to make it known quick if you'll stick with her, has a horse for utility, and gains an additional weapon type upon promotion.

And she can use the Knight Ward, both for extra bulk in the moment, and more speed in the long-run. Path of Radiance gave its cavalry lots of love, huh? Now, where was that attitude in the sequel...

[drattakbowser]

After I play all PAL games he is finally my worst unit in each game :

 

- Blazing Blade : Karla

- Sacred Stones : Marisa

- Path of Radiance : Ena

- Radiant Dawn : Lyre

- Shadow Dragon : Radd

- Awakening : Donnel

- Fates (Birthright) : Azama

- Fates (Conquest) : Mozu

- Fates (Revelation) : Odin

- Echoes : Est

- Three Houses : Anna

[Alastor15243]

3 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

- Fates (Conquest) : Mozu

Mozu is not even close to being the worst unit in Conquest. She's your sole means of access to the best player-phase class line in the game (archer/sniper/kinshi knight), she can give it to two other characters, one of whom is the offensive juggernaut known as Effie, and her rough start isn't nearly as much of a setback as it appears, even in optimal play:

 

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

10 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Mozu is not even close to being the worst unit in Conquest. She's your sole means of access to the best player-phase class line in the game (archer/sniper/kinshi knight), she can give it to two other characters, one of whom is the offensive juggernaut known as Effie, and her rough start isn't nearly as much of a setback as it appears, even in optimal play:

Yeah but checks notes LTC.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Mozu is not even close to being the worst unit in Conquest. She's your sole means of access to the best player-phase class line in the game (archer/sniper/kinshi knight), she can give it to two other characters, one of whom is the offensive juggernaut known as Effie, and her rough start isn't nearly as much of a setback as it appears, even in optimal play:

 

I'm amazed that THAT is what you decide is worth calling out. Anyhow, I'd disagree because Mozu is a massive resource sink that doesn't pay off well enough for me to care. Which, sadly, tends to be the case more often than not when it comes to underleveled characters.

6 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

- Path of Radiance : Ena

I hard disagree here - Rolf is worse, largely because he has nothing going for him whatsoever. Path of Radiance being one of the lowest points for archers doesn't help his case.

[Alastor15243]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm amazed that THAT is what you decide is worth calling out.

There was nothing else Drattak said that was a hotter take.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyhow, I'd disagree because Mozu is a massive resource sink that doesn't pay off well enough for me to care. Which, sadly, tends to be the case more often than not when it comes to underleveled characters.

She really, really isn't. Like that first video demonstrates, you barely have to slow down to get her off the ground. And more importantly, the reward is pretty damned huge in a game that has a big niche for player phase nukes.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I hard disagree here - Rolf is worse, largely because he has nothing going for him whatsoever. Path of Radiance being one of the lowest points for archers doesn't help his case.

Rolf has quite a few things going for him, actually:

- High availability, from chapter 9 onward;

- A +10 Crit Bond support with Boyd and Oscar;

- A monopoly on Bows until Astrid shows up (Chapter... 14, I believe?) or Oscar/Boyd promotes;

- Effective damage against Ravens, and later Wyverns; and

- Being necessary to re-recruit Shinon

Now, I don't think this adds up to much; he's probably still a "bottom 5" unit. I'd say Ena beats him out, purely by her ability to damage Ashnard. But there's a case for putting Rolf ahead of the likes of Sothe, Lucia, and Nephenee.

9 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

- Sacred Stones : Marisa

Finally, a man of taste.

9 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

- Shadow Dragon : Radd

Aw c'mon, he's not that badd.

...Okay, he's pretty bad, but I'd still call Tomas, Dolph, and Macellan worse.

[Jotari]

50 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Aw c'mon, he's not that badd.

...Okay, he's pretty bad, but I'd still call Tomas, Dolph, and Macellan worse.

Obviously the worst Shadow Dragon characters are Frey and Norne, because they don't exist on anything above normal, and normal isn't worth talking about.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

There was nothing else Drattak said that was a hotter take.

She really, really isn't. Like that first video demonstrates, you barely have to slow down to get her off the ground. And more importantly, the reward is pretty damned huge in a game that has a big niche for player phase nukes.

I disagree there too. I'd consider that much more believable than thinking Rolf is better than Ena in PoR.

At the cost of a Heart Seal that coulda been put to better use. Also, I have better things to do with my time than to babysit someone who ain't worth it anyhow, thank you very much.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- High availability, from chapter 9 onward;

I don't prize availability that much, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned Arthur much earlier in this thread. Hell, a lot of the other characters I mentioned as being among the worst units in their games also have high availability, so you really oughta have seen this coming.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- Effective damage against Ravens, and later Wyverns; and

Except it's x2. Also, that's not unique to him, as Laguzslayers also do effective damage vs ravens (coincidentally, you get at least one right before the chapter where you start being harassed by ravens).

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- Being necessary to re-recruit Shinon

He doesn't need to be trained for that.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- A +10 Crit Bond support with Boyd and Oscar;

That's nice, but not good enough to justify blowing a unit slot on a level 1 archer, especially when a lot of other units that put those unit slots to better use start coming along at this point in time too.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- A monopoly on Bows until Astrid shows up (Chapter... 14, I believe?) or Oscar/Boyd promotes;

Astrid comes in chapter 13. Also, I don't consider a monopoly on bows much of a point in his favour when he sucks that badly, and isn't even that good in the one situation where he might have helped because, once again, x2 effectiveness.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But there's a case for putting Rolf ahead of the likes of Sothe, Lucia, and Nephenee.

Hard disagree on all of those.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Obviously the worst Shadow Dragon characters are Frey and Norne, because they don't exist on anything above normal, and normal isn't worth talking about.

Literally zero availability. 

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't prize availability that much, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned Arthur much earlier in this thread. Hell, a lot of the other characters I mentioned as being among the worst units in their games also have high availability, so you really oughta have seen this coming.

I mean, I'm not accountable for your rating criteria. I assume you're referring to CQ Arthur? The notion that he could be the worst unit in Conquest is downright laughable. Even if he's never your lead unit, he offers a sizable Strength boost to literally anyone else via the Pair-Up system.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except it's x2. Also, that's not unique to him, as Laguzslayers also do effective damage vs ravens (coincidentally, you get at least one right before the chapter where you start being harassed by ravens).

2 effective weapons are better than one!

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

He doesn't need to be trained for that.

True, but a Rolf who can at least take a hit makes the re-recruitment slightly less tricky to pull off.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Astrid comes in chapter 13. Also, I don't consider a monopoly on bows much of a point in his favour when he sucks that badly, and isn't even that good in the one situation where he might have helped because, once again, x2 effectiveness.

Ah good catch on the chapter number. Point is, at least he's not competing for his weapons with anyone else. In the sense that, say, Brom and Nephenee require Lances that someone better (Oscar, Marcia, Titania) could be using.