Worst unit in each game?

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Sure, if you're not keen on getting Heal or Thoron ASAP. Rally Charm that early is an option, yes, but it means delaying all her other options.

 

Dorothea tends to be "choose two of Heal in C3, Thoron in C3, and Rally Charm in C2". (I've gotten all three, but it involves a bit of tutoring luck, not to mention tutoring her all three weeks in C3, which is favouritism given how limited slots are then.) Since she'll probably only have two Thorons in C3, it's probably worth passing on that, but it depends how much you value Rally Charm, since those two Thorons can certainly be decisive. I'd never want to pass on Heal (in part because the act of getting it tends to speed you towards Physic, which I consider amazing for C5 in particular, and in part because Heal in C3 = more actions = more exp and class exp), but you can.

 

5 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

I do want to defend Gilbert a bit though, because Dedue does leave between chapter 13 - 16 and that's where Gilbert really comes in useful. Once you finish ch13, he can certify Paladin at base to bump his base speed to 14; that prevents him from being doubled by armor enemies. Chapter 14 is a map where you want an armor to safely bait and tank the pegasus knights and assassins, and since Dedue is gone he's one option. He can become a Great Knight or Wyvern Rider by chapter 15 too; he's only 4 levels away from Great Knight certification and very close in riding rank to attempt the exam fwiw. And honestly, as a Wyvern Lord he is at worst a flying Smite-bot which at least is something that could be useful later in the game for positioning shenanigans.

I dunno if I'd put Gilbert near the likes of Anna or Ashe tbh because at least he's got some merits. I still think that the latter two are probably the worst units in the game due to just being so underwhelming in either an offensive or supportive role.

I find armours very underwhelming in C14 myself, at least the way I play it, because the thickets slow them down so much, they basically need movement support to get to somewhere useful. C15... fair I suppose. I generally don't think about performance in that map much because I find it almost trivial outside of a rather nonsensical reinforcement spawn. I also tend to have an AS+ dodgetank online by this point, which reduce the need for concrete tanking - IMO concrete is more useful in Part 1 - but I'll acknowledge that's a playstyle thing. 

I definitely think Ashe is better, his boons allow him to easily become a Hunter's Volley bot which will be more useful in C14-16 than anything Gilbert can do. Or, heck, he could rather trivially be a Wyvern with Smite, too, if you value that more - B armour, C flying, D+ authority (lmao), B axes is all he needs to match Gilbert at this, and those are ranks he can achieve by Gilbert's join time with barely any tutoring at all. As a bonus, he'll naturally build up supports with his fellow Blions as you play through White Clouds (even if he spends time as an adjutant) and thus be much more able to offer (and benefit from) link support than Gilbert.

Honestly Hunter's Volley is such a good "fix this character" skill (and Sniper is just so much easier to reach with a boon, needing a B+ by Level 20) that I have a hard time seeing a character with a bow boon as truly in the running for worst. Anna manages because "no supports" is pretty awful.

[Ari Chan]

15 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd say it's Gilbert, myself. D+ authority / E bows with no standout combat arts is just terrible at that point in the game. His ranks are in all the wrong places for using most of the best Advanced classes... except Wyvern Rider, admittedly, but unfortunately he's locked on the worst route for "yet another wyvern rider", due to the battalion situation. Even if you're Fortress Knight fan? Too bad, shares a route with #1 Fortress Knight Dedue. Anything I can think of that might give him some use via his late join, Alois or Seteth (already not exactly top-tier units) do better.

There's definitely a good case for Anna, but Shanty Pete notes some of the very niche uses she actually has.

Tbh I used to think Gilbert is the worst unit in the game until I saw how players like Mekkah made full use of him, he makes a good emergency Wyvern/Paladin filler that is decently bulky, can do damage with Brave Weapons, use smite/rally defense so he does have a place in LTC and he's certainly better than Ashe or Caspar who does nothing at base and requires resources to become usable later on.

Anyway worst unit in each game I've played imo:

FE6: Wendy/Gwendolyn: Joins late in the worst class in the game with unusable bases.

FE7: Karla: Ridiculous recruitment condition, horrible base level performance, only available for like 3-4 chapters.

FE8: Amelia: at least Ewan has 1-2 range, hit res and can eventually heal/summon, I certainly do not need a 5th Paladin that takes forever to promote and is unusable at base.

FE9: Rolf: Shitty archer in a game where archer is one of the worst classes, no thanks.

FE10: Lyre: gets outclassed by like every other Laguz units in the game.

FE11: Bantu: like many people here said he recruits Tiki for you but that's kinda it.

FE13: Donnel: starts off too weak and requires too much babying to become usable.

FE14: RV!Odin: Joins too late and underleveled to be of any use, CQ!Mozu: a villager unit in a difficult game with limited resources, BR!Hayato: Join late with worse bases than Orochi who is already a meh unit herself.

FE15: Forsyth: 5 base speed and 4 mov are just pathetic, no reason to use him when you get a large number of strong mounted/flying units in Alm route.

FE16: Ashe: At least Anna can be recruited late as a filler and have Flying Rescue utility, Caspar will eventually become a decent Warmaster/Wyvern. Ashe however just sucks from start to finish, bad bases/growths, no good Combat Arts/Skills, and he also leaves your army for 3 chapters in 3 out of 4 routes in the game

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Ari Chan

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Subaki, as others have noted, there's no "1 flyer max" rule so even though he's worse than Hinoka, he certainly puts in use.  (And heck, some people like to make Spear Master Hinoka cosplaying as Oboro for some extra stats, meaning you might need a new volunteer to get into Sky Knight anyway.)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that flight doesn't single-handedly redeem a unit. Just ask Juno. (However, she manages to dodge the discussion of worst unit in her game largely because the actual candidates for worst unit in Binding Blade are just that damn bad) Anyways, most of the time, outside of the earlygame, if you have a slot to blow on Subaki, you'd get more mileage using pretty much anyone else. Especially his daughter, who shares the perks of flight, but unlike him, she can actually fight worth a damn.

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, SnowFire said:

 

• Path of Radiance losers: Much as Rolf is very, very bad in PoR for the reasons everyone knows, I have to think that availability concerns combined with system issues make it at least somewhat competitive between Rolf and the Crimean latecomers.  An "optimal" playthrough won't use any of them and leave them moldering in the barracks.  But, given the way bonus XP works, if you really love Rolf, you can at least shower him with BEXP and have some overlevel super-kid run around feathering fools for most of the game.  On the other hand, an attempt for favoritism on Bastian/Lucia/Elincia is largely going to fall flat: even if you save up some BEXP for them as soon as they join, they won't be able to get as overleveled comparatively as super-Rolf was for the mid-game, and they only exist for just a few maps.  It's a tough call, but Rolf does have this minor redeeming quality over the late-joining cannon fodder.

If I remember rightly, Bastians stat spread is also just kind of bad. In a game with mages that are already underwhelming for the series average, he chooses to focus on strength to play into the bizarre design decision of knife sages, and he doesn't even do a good job of that.

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I'm of the opinion that flight doesn't single-handedly redeem a unit. Just ask Juno. (However, she manages to dodge the discussion of worst unit in her game largely because the actual candidates for worst unit in Binding Blade are just that damn bad) Anyways, most of the time, outside of the earlygame, if you have a slot to blow on Subaki, you'd get more mileage using pretty much anyone else. Especially his daughter, who shares the perks of flight, but unlike him, she can actually fight worth a damn.

How do you plan on getting his daughter without using him?

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, SnowFire said:

• Path of Radiance losers: Much as Rolf is very, very bad in PoR for the reasons everyone knows, I have to think that availability concerns combined with system issues make it at least somewhat competitive between Rolf and the Crimean latecomers.  An "optimal" playthrough won't use any of them and leave them moldering in the barracks.  But, given the way bonus XP works, if you really love Rolf, you can at least shower him with BEXP and have some overlevel super-kid run around feathering fools for most of the game.  On the other hand, an attempt for favoritism on Bastian/Lucia/Elincia is largely going to fall flat: even if you save up some BEXP for them as soon as they join, they won't be able to get as overleveled comparatively as super-Rolf was for the mid-game, and they only exist for just a few maps.  It's a tough call, but Rolf does have this minor redeeming quality over the late-joining cannon fodder.

I would disagree. Even ignoring the massive opportunity cost, Rolf just doesn't do anything of note. He cannot help chip enemies because unlike the likes of Rebecca, Wil, and Neimi, he joins too late, and thus enemies are too powerful for him to do more than a few points of damage to. His one opportunity to shine is ruined because Path of Radiance uses double effectiveness. Longbows are locked to archers and snipers in PoR, but that doesn't help that much because they, and the Double Bow, are pathetic.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

How do you plan on getting his daughter without using him?

Simple. Use him long enough to marry, then drop him.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Simple. Use him long enough to marry, then drop him.

Well then you are using him as a character and he's not a useless unit. He contributes something even if you're just using him in the first half.

[FailWood]

13 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Path of Radiance losers: Much as Rolf is very, very bad in PoR for the reasons everyone knows, I have to think that availability concerns combined with system issues make it at least somewhat competitive between Rolf and the Crimean latecomers.  An "optimal" playthrough won't use any of them and leave them moldering in the barracks.  But, given the way bonus XP works, if you really love Rolf, you can at least shower him with BEXP and have some overlevel super-kid run around feathering fools for most of the game.  On the other hand, an attempt for favoritism on Bastian/Lucia/Elincia is largely going to fall flat: even if you save up some BEXP for them as soon as they join, they won't be able to get as overleveled comparatively as super-Rolf was for the mid-game, and they only exist for just a few maps.  It's a tough call, but Rolf does have this minor redeeming quality over the late-joining cannon fodder.

I don't see Rolf as better then Elincia.  She joins with A Staves and can fly so she can mend/recover someone, then get back to safety.  Her being able to use Fortify at base is handy too, in a game where Sages can't reach A Staves.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

If I remember rightly, Bastians stat spread is also just kind of bad. In a game with mages that are already underwhelming for the series average, he chooses to focus on strength to play into the bizarre design decision of knife sages, and he doesn't even do a good job of that.

Statwise he's similar to Callil.  +3 HP, +4 Strength, Same Magic, +3 Skill, -2 Speed, -1 Luck, +4 Defense, and +3 Resistance... but joins 4 chapters later then her and is Level 13 compared to her Level 6.

[FailWood]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well then you are using him as a character and he's not a useless unit. He contributes something even if you're just using him in the first half.

You're talking to the same person who hates Conquest Niles.  What a back and forth that was.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I'm of the opinion that flight doesn't single-handedly redeem a unit. Just ask Juno. (However, she manages to dodge the discussion of worst unit in her game largely because the actual candidates for worst unit in Binding Blade are just that damn bad) Anyways, most of the time, outside of the earlygame, if you have a slot to blow on Subaki, you'd get more mileage using pretty much anyone else. Especially his daughter, who shares the perks of flight, but unlike him, she can actually fight worth a damn.

Being able to give any unit flying mobility and a Speed boost through the Pair Up system is pretty rad, though. That's a solid contribution, even if he's not directly seeing battle.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would disagree. Even ignoring the massive opportunity cost, Rolf just doesn't do anything of note. He cannot help chip enemies because unlike the likes of Rebecca, Wil, and Neimi, he joins too late, and thus enemies are too powerful for him to do more than a few points of damage to. His one opportunity to shine is ruined because Path of Radiance uses double effectiveness. Longbows are locked to archers and snipers in PoR, but that doesn't help that much because they, and the Double Bow, are pathetic.

Rolf has about as many chapters to go after joining as either Wil or Neimi do. And the comparison to Wil is fairly instructive, since he also gets 2x effectiveness. Rolf's bases are bad, granted, but enemy quality as of chapter 9 is still pretty low. He can do chip damage, and potentially secure crits through his bond supports with Boyd and Oscar (two excellent units). Speaking of which, later on he can enable a triangle attack with those two. So if you want to optimize Boyd's and Oscar's performance, then Rolf offers a niche to that end.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Rolf has about as many chapters to go after joining as either Wil or Neimi do. And the comparison to Wil is fairly instructive, since he also gets 2x effectiveness. Rolf's bases are bad, granted, but enemy quality as of chapter 9 is still pretty low. He can do chip damage, and potentially secure crits through his bond supports with Boyd and Oscar (two excellent units). Speaking of which, later on he can enable a triangle attack with those two. So if you want to optimize Boyd's and Oscar's performance, then Rolf offers a niche to that end.

The thing is, enemies in Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones are pretty pathetic. Also, those other archers I listed came early, when enemies, and my own units as well (crutch character aside), were still weak. On the other hand, Rolf comes at a time where my own units are starting to get rolling (at least two of Ike, Oscar, and Boyd are approaching double digit levels by then).

Anyway, here are the stats for the enemies in Rolf's joining chapter:

Spoiler

2x Lv 8 Fighter (steel axe)

30 hp, 20 atk, 0 AS, 79 hit, 2 avo, 6 def, 2 res 3 crit, 2 cev

2x Lv 11 Fighter (steel axe)

34 hp, 22 atk, 4 AS, 82 hit, 11 avo, 7 def, 3 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 11 Fighter (poleax)

32 hp, 20 atk, 0 AS, 77 hit, 3 avo, 7 def, 3 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 9 Bandit (venin axe)

33 hp, 15 atk, 7 AS, 70 hit, 16 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 2 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 9 Myrmidion (iron sword)

22 hp, 13 atk, 10 AS, 112 hit, 22 avo, 5 def, 2 res, 5 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 12 Myrmidion (iron sword)

24 hp, 14 atk, 12 AS, 115 hit, 27 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 13 Myrmidion (steel sword)

25 hp, 17 atk, 10 AS, 102 hit, 23 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 10 Soldier (steel lance)

28 hp, 17 atk, 2 AS, 88 hit, 6 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 11 Soldier (steel lance)

28 hp, 18 atk, 3 AS, 90 hit, 8 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

2x Lv 11 Knight (steel lance, 1 vulnerary)

28 hp, 20 Atk, 0 AS, 86 hit, 2 avo, 15 def, 5 res, 3 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 13 Knight (steel lance)

29 hp, 21 atk, 2 AS, 92 hit, 7 avo, 16 def, 7 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 10 Archer (steel bow)

24 hp, 15 atk, 5 AS, 96 hit, 12 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 11 Archer (steel bow)

24 hp, 16 atk, 7 AS, 97 hit, 17 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

4x Lv 6 Mage (thunder)

19 hp, 11 atk, 4 AS, 94 hit, 9 avo, 3 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev

1x Lv 9 Mage (wind)

20 hp, 10 atk, 8 AS, 118 hit, 17 avo, 4 def, 9 res, 3 crit, 1 cev

1x Lv 10 Mage (fire)

22 hp, 12 atk, 7 AS, 113 hit, 15 avo, 5 def, 9 res, 3 crit, 1 cev

1x Lv 3 Kotaff (knight killer, javelin, arms scroll [d])

37 hp, 21 atk, 12 AS, 108 hit, 34 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 10 cev

Turn 5 Reinforcements:

1x Bandit lv 10 (venin axe)

34 hp, 15 atk, 7 AS, 70 hit, 16 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 2 crit, 2 cev

1x Bandit lv 10 (hand axe)

34 hp, 17 atk, 5 AS, 65 hit, 12 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 2 crit, 2 cev

Nedata lv 18 (venin axe)

40 hp, 20 atk, 12 AS, 75 hit, 25 avo, 9 def, 5 res, 3 crit, 1 cev

Turn 6 Reinforcements:

2x Lv 9 Bandit (venin axe)

33 hp, 15 atk, 7 AS, 70 hit, 16 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 2 crit, 2 cev

Event (someone moves close to the boss):

2x Myrmidon lv 11 (steel sword)

24 hp, 17 atk, 8 AS, 100 hit, 19 avo, 6 def, 2 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 13 (iron sword)

25 hp, 15 atk, 13 AS, 117 hit, 29 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 13 (steel sword)

25 hp, 18 atk, 11 AS, 104 hit, 25 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Soldier lv 11 (javelin)

28 hp, 14 atk, 5 AS, 80 hit, 12 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

1x Soldier lv 12 (iron lance)

29 hp, 15 atk, 9 AS, 101 hit, 21 avo, 9 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 3 cev

1x Knight lv 13 (steel lance)

30 hp, 21 atk, 2 AS, 87 hit, 7 avo, 16 def, 6 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

Now these stats are actually prone to variance, but still, I'm not seeing Rolf doing damage that could be considered meaningful to most of these enemies (read as: pretty much everything that isn't a mage). Anyway, a bond support with Boyd and Oscar isn't enough to make him worth it, and the triangle attack definitely ain't. Hell, I consider the 3 brothers' triangle attack to be a joke that's almost as laughable as the armor triangle attack from Binding Blade. I mean, have Oscar pick the worst weapon type when he promotes, and actively deploy Rolf? And all I get for this is something that leaves me with three sitting ducks come enemy phase?? Are you fucking kidding me?!

Edited May 7, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, here are the stats for the enemies in Rolf's joining chapter:

Neat breakdown! In comparison to these, Rolf offers 13 Attack with 6 AS. Not the greatest, surely, but he can actually double a few of them (like the lv. 8 Fighters, or the lv. 10 Soldier). He can chip these foes, among other faster ones, for one of your better units (Boyd, Ike, Oscar) to secure the kill. Boyd and Oscar, as mentioned, benefit from the Bond support too, giving then a chance of saving a weapon use via crit. Being able to safely chip is something that, say, Mia is never going to be offering (except against enemy Archers). And that bond boost to two of the best units in the game is, again, unique to Rolf.

As for the triangle attack, yeah it's a bit of a gimmick, and Axes are overall better than Bows on Oscar. But it can enable some comfortable bosskills that the boys would otherwise miss out on, and otherwise turn a chance shot into a sure thing. Rolf won't be a huge contributor on his own, but he doesn't have to be. Sometimes it's worth fielding units based on the support they can provide to other units, rather than any independent combat ability they offer.

Is Rolf a "good unit", then? No. I'm acting as an apologist for him, and even I don't think I'd raise him above the "bottom 5" in the game. But he still has certain uses that no other units can replicate, which elevates his stock (ever so slightly) in my book. To the point where I'd say, he can contribute more over the course of a playthrough than someone like Lucia or Bastian.

[Mega Koopa]

FE1: Jake and Beck, for anyone who doesn't know, ballista in FE1 are two ranged locked like regular archers, and are stuck with 4 movement and worse terrain penalties than armor knights. 

 

FE2: Maybe Forsyth, Atlas, or Valbar. Forsyth is discount Lukas, which wouldn't be so bad, but Lukas' big niche is being helpful early on, so a late joining Lukas is redundant. Atlas is a villager who joins relatively late and can be made into something like a Dread Fighter, but he requires much more investment than the three other Dread Fighters gotten before. And Valbar is put in a unfortunate area, where you already had Saber as a good tank, and while he can tank decently, you're immediately greeted to harsh terrain in desert maps and swamp maps, plus countless magic users that result in him being a sitting duck.

 

FE3 (Book 2 in particular): Roshea, he's the second to last paladin in a game flooded with cavaliers and paladins,  he lacks the ability to use silver swords at base, he's immediately forced to dismount after recruited further nerfing his stats, and speaking of his stats, his stats are worse than Midia, Abel, and they're even just on par if not worse than Sirius who joined 15 maps ago.

 

FE4: Arden/Hannibal, there isn't much discussion here, low movement armors in a game that favors movement. 

 

FE5: Miranda, the only unpromoted mage who doesn't promote into a sage hurts her a lot. She doesn't have the advantage of high promo bonuses or staves, and when she has to dismount indoors she has less movement than her unpromoted class. She also joins halfway through the game and recruiting her means not recruiting Sleuf, Misha, or Amalda. 

 

FE6: Wendy/Sophia, The previous replies have already explained these two units in depth, I assume.

 

 FE7: Karla, Joins too late, is a swordmaster in a game that's bias against swords, and requires training up another underwhelming unit.

 

FE8: Amelia/Ewan: Both have the same issue of joining late with underwhelming performance, again, all the other replies in this thread have already went into detail about one or the other.

 

FE9: I'm not too familiar with FE9, but I'm inclined to say maybe Rolf or Sothe.

 

FE10: haven't played

 

FE11: Macellan. In chapter 8 you recruit Roger, who is supposed to be a replacement of Draug, when Draug isn't even that good to begin with. Then you get Dolph as a replacement of Roger, then Macellan as a replacement of Dolph. You can probably already visualize this, but Macellan is just worse than all the previous knights before in both bases and growths, and even when evaluating him in a vacuum, he has low weapon ranks for the time he joins in the game, and being stuck in class B, he doesn't have access to much classes to take advantage of the weapon rank he does have. 

 

FE12: Bantu. One thing that's true about all the previous units is that even if the payout isn't a lot, you can theoretically train and make them workable. That isn't the case for Bantu in FE12. Bantu on join have extremely low bases, notably his hp that would get him one rounded by chapter 1 enemies,  even with the dragonstone bonuses he gets one rounded in his join map by every enemy aside from Roger. His extremely low growths, so no matter how much you train him, he will most likely remain the same. No access to promotion or reclassing. And because you can't buy more firestones on H3 and up, if you do go through with trying to train him, if his firestone breaks, he quite literally cannot fight anymore. Bantu is the biggest nerf I've ever witnessed from a unit in a fire emblem remake. 

 

FE13-14: haven't played

 

FE15: See FE2

 

FE16: Have not gotten far enough to form an opinion.   

Edited May 7, 2022 by Mega Koopa

[The Roger The Paladin]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Rolf has about as many chapters to go after joining as either Wil or Neimi do. And the comparison to Wil is fairly instructive, since he also gets 2x effectiveness. Rolf's bases are bad, granted, but enemy quality as of chapter 9 is still pretty low. He can do chip damage, and potentially secure crits through his bond supports with Boyd and Oscar (two excellent units). Speaking of which, later on he can enable a triangle attack with those two. So if you want to optimize Boyd's and Oscar's performance, then Rolf offers a niche to that end.

In Rolf's joining chapter, Chapter 9, the deploy limit is 10, and at that time you have 10 characters. Which makes him a free deploy for chapter 9... but come chapter 10 he's not. You've now got 14 characters and a deployment limit of 9. Using Rolf after that point means actively not using someone else. Then chapter 11 it's 13... but you've now got 17 characters. Then 10... with 18 characters. 

Rebecca by comparison is a free deploy from chapter 12-14 of HHM. That's four maps (three if we skip 13x) where there's no reason not to use her, because it's either you use her or just have one less unit.
On Eliwood normal... she's available in chapter 11 as well, and because of Normal's deployment slots being more generous.. chapter 15. Chapter 16 of Hector normal also let's you use her free. This means she gets six maps in Eliwood normal, five in Eliwood Hard, and five in Hector normal. So depending on setting, Rebecca has four to six chapters to make herself useful at no deployment cost. Something Rolf almost entirely lacks. Wil on the other hand gets one if Lyn mode is skipped... but it should be noted he does technically have Lyn mode. Which gives him another 6 chapters (2-6 and 10) of free deployment. I'd argue that alone gives them a significant edge on Rolf.
 

17 minutes ago, Mega Koopa said:

 

FE9: I'm not too familiar with FE9, but I'm inclined to say maybe Rolf or Sothe.

Sothe's combat may be crappy, but he does have thief utility.. and his only competition is Volke. Calling him the worst unit in Path of Radiance is a lot like saying Rickard's the worst unit in Shadow Dragon because he's a thief with worse combat than Julian. Which seems like a mistake. Their selling point is not combat. It just happens Volke and Julian are better at combat than Sothe or Rickard.

[Mega Koopa]

1 minute ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

Sothe's combat may be crappy, but he does have thief utility.. and his only competition is Volke. Calling him the worst unit in Path of Radiance is a lot like saying Rickard's the worst unit in Shadow Dragon because he's a thief with worse combat than Julian. Which seems like a mistake. Their selling point is not combat. It just happens Volke and Julian are better at combat than Sothe or Rickard.

I see, I see. I take back what I said about Sothe then. 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, FailWood said:

Statwise he's similar to Callil.  +3 HP, +4 Strength, Same Magic, +3 Skill, -2 Speed, -1 Luck, +4 Defense, and +3 Resistance... but joins 4 chapters later then her and is Level 13 compared to her Level 6.

I think he actually has pretty decent  growths...just next to no levels to use them. If he did join at level 5 or 6 then you could probably pump him full of exp and he'd be pretty great (of course he'd be most advantages if he started lv20 mage so you could give him staves.

2 hours ago, FailWood said:

You're talking to the same person who hates Conquest Niles.  What a back and forth that was.

Yeah, seems I'll never learn.

38 minutes ago, Mega Koopa said:

FE1: Jake and Beck, for anyone who doesn't know, ballista in FE1 are two ranged locked like regular archers, and are stuck with 4 movement and worse terrain penalties than armor knights. 

Oh yeah. Hard agree. It's so weird going from Shadow Dragon DS to Shadow Dragon NES and seeing what ballisticians were originally conceived as. Because they actually work really well in Shadow Dragon, not broken, not useless, and it genuinely feels like the maps are designed around having such range as an option. But no, they were just originally designed to be confusingly useless.

38 minutes ago, Mega Koopa said:

FE2: Maybe Forsyth, Atlas, or Valbar. Forsyth is discount Lukas, which wouldn't be so bad, but Lukas' big niche is being helpful early on, so a late joining Lukas is redundant. Atlas is a villager who joins relatively late and can be made into something like a Dread Fighter, but he requires much more investment than the three other Dread Fighters gotten before. And Valbar is put in a unfortunate area, where you already had Saber as a good tank, and while he can tank decently, you're immediately greeted to harsh terrain in desert maps and swamp maps, plus countless magic users that result in him being a sitting duck.

Mercenary Atlas is still better than Jessie though. Despite Jessies great class, in every playthrough of the game and the remake I've played, he's just so under levelled compared to the rest of the class it's genuinely hard to get him involved in enough combat to hit promotion thresholds.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

In Rolf's joining chapter, Chapter 9, the deploy limit is 10, and at that time you have 10 characters. Which makes him a free deploy for chapter 9... but come chapter 10 he's not. You've now got 14 characters and a deployment limit of 9. Using Rolf after that point means actively not using someone else. Then chapter 11 it's 13... but you've now got 17 characters. Then 10... with 18 characters. 

All fair points. Chapter 10 is kind of weird - if you're playing for stealth, then combat and healing don't really matter, only mobility and Rescue utility. He can potentially help Oscar or Boysld get the bosskill, so that's... something. He's probably a better bring than your 5-move units (Rhys, Soren, Ilyana, Mist), and perhaps Mia. This calculus changes if you're playing conventionally, in which case you'll likely want a Mage and a Healer.

As for the next few chapters, Rolf could come before a second Healer or Mage. Mia is a pretty easy drop (since you get Zihark, who is just a better Myrm), while Brom and Nephenee's worth is definitely debatable. Neph can be better long-term, sure, but she wants the Knight Ward (which you don't have yet). Beyond that, he's a solid bring on the boat maps, where he has effective damage against the Ravens. Once you get to Begnion, his continued worthiness will depend on if he's gotten levels or started building a support, and whether you're planning to use both Boyd and Oscar long-term.

1 hour ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

Wil on the other hand gets one if Lyn mode is skipped... but it should be noted he does technically have Lyn mode. Which gives him another 6 chapters (2-6 and 10) of free deployment. I'd argue that alone gives them a significant edge on Rolf.

I'm assuming Wil is tiered according to his HHM performance, not his "full game" performance. Otherwise, I'd have to concede that Wallace is actually a decent unit.

Fair point about Rebecca having more availability. I tend to hold Wil in higher regard, even just on HHM, because he gets the Steel Bow from the start. She starts with just an Iron Bow, and is hardly doing any damage (but to her credit, she can use a Steel Bow once those become available). But Rebecca holds the "free deployment" advantage, and no one can take that away from her.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo. Accidental misinformation.

[The Roger The Paladin]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All fair points. Chapter 10 is kind of weird - if you're playing for stealth, then combat and healing don't really matter, only mobility and Rescue utility. He can potentially help Oscar or Boysld get the bosskill, so that's... something. He's probably a better bring than your 5-move units (Rhys, Soren, Ilyana, Mist), and perhaps Mia. This calculus changes if you're playing conventionally, in which case you'll likely want a Mage and a Healer.

As for the next few chapters, Rolf could come before a second Healer or Mage. Mia is a pretty easy drop (since you get Zihark, who is just a better Myrm), while Brom and Nephenee's worth is definitely debatable. Neph can be better long-term, sure, but she wants the Knight Ward (which you don't have yet). Beyond that, he's a solid bring on the boat maps, where he has effective damage against the Ravens. Once you get to Begnion, his continued worthiness will depend on if he's gotten levels or started building a support, and whether you're planning to use both Boyd and Oscar long-term.

My argument is more on the "Rolf would be a lot better off if he got another chapter or two as a free deploy". Other earlygame archers benefit a lot from that. When you look at Gordin for instance, his growths in Shadow Dragon aren't all that impressive. I mean, his personal speed growth is the same as Jagen's. His bases are 2HP and 4 luck off generic units. But he sure benefits from being free to use for the first three chapters. More so in Hard 5, where the early game is a bit of a "all hands on deck" situation. Doesn't make Gordin a good unit long term. But he's pretty useful if you want to get past the early game in the higher difficulties.

That said, in the context of Path of Radiance specifically, I'm hard pressed to think of anyone who is worse off than Rolf. And that's from someone who likes using the guy. Though I do prefer using him over other units who are better over-all. He's got no enemy phase in one of the most enemy phase oriented games in the series. Taking out one foe in player phase isn't much use if other characters are taking out multiple in enemy phase. His bases are low, his starting level is low so he takes longer to get to the point where promotion is an option. Having canto and knight ward bonuses really helps a unit in this game... and he has neither because of his class.

[Shadow Mir]

52 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's a serious chore to get Rebecca to D-Bows by that point, and her Iron Bow damage is astonishingly marginal.

Doesn't she already start at D rank?

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Neat breakdown! In comparison to these, Rolf offers 13 Attack with 6 AS. Not the greatest, surely, but he can actually double a few of them (like the lv. 8 Fighters, or the lv. 10 Soldier). He can chip these foes, among other faster ones, for one of your better units (Boyd, Ike, Oscar) to secure the kill. Boyd and Oscar, as mentioned, benefit from the Bond support too, giving then a chance of saving a weapon use via crit. Being able to safely chip is something that, say, Mia is never going to be offering (except against enemy Archers). And that bond boost to two of the best units in the game is, again, unique to Rolf.

As for the triangle attack, yeah it's a bit of a gimmick, and Axes are overall better than Bows on Oscar. But it can enable some comfortable bosskills that the boys would otherwise miss out on, and otherwise turn a chance shot into a sure thing. Rolf won't be a huge contributor on his own, but he doesn't have to be. Sometimes it's worth fielding units based on the support they can provide to other units, rather than any independent combat ability they offer.

Is Rolf a "good unit", then? No. I'm acting as an apologist for him, and even I don't think I'd raise him above the "bottom 5" in the game. But he still has certain uses that no other units can replicate, which elevates his stock (ever so slightly) in my book. To the point where I'd say, he can contribute more over the course of a playthrough than someone like Lucia or Bastian.

That bond boost is unique to him, but it isn't enough to justify fielding him over pretty much anyone else, especially in one of the worst games for archers.

How many bosses is the triangle attack even usable on? Because my gut is telling me that number is countable on one hand.

Sure, he has certain uses that are not replicable by anyone else, but imho, that doesn't make up for the fact that he's worse off than everyone else, even the Crimean late joiners.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't she already start at D rank?

...You know what, you're right, she does. I have no idea how I've labored under this false impression for so long. Good catch. Wil still has better Strength and Con to his credit.

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That bond boost is unique to him, but it isn't enough to justify fielding him over pretty much anyone else, especially in one of the worst games for archers.

True, it's a bad game for Archers and Bows in general. Not gonna contest that much.

13 minutes ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

That said, in the context of Path of Radiance specifically, I'm hard pressed to think of anyone who is worse off than Rolf. And that's from someone who likes using the guy. Though I do prefer using him over other units who are better over-all. He's got no enemy phase in one of the most enemy phase oriented games in the series. Taking out one foe in player phase isn't much use if other characters are taking out multiple in enemy phase. His bases are low, his starting level is low so he takes longer to get to the point where promotion is an option. Having canto and knight ward bonuses really helps a unit in this game... and he has neither because of his class.

Fair enough, it's not an easy game for Archers. And he's not very good on enemy phase. Still, I wonder how many EP-oriented units you want to raise up? You can probably funnel EXP into a few, then fill the remaining slots with support units with some PP presence. It's not like Mia or Astrid (pre-promotion) will have much to do on EP, for instance.

[FailWood]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I think he actually has pretty decent  growths...just next to no levels to use them. If he did join at level 5 or 6 then you could probably pump him full of exp and he'd be pretty great (of course he'd be most advantages if he started lv20 mage so you could give him staves.

He's a good option for having the long range tomes on him if you don't want them on your main Mages/Sages thanks to his high weapon ranks, same applies to Callil.  I sometimes deploy one of them for just that, and it's handy.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, FailWood said:

He's a good option for having the long range tomes on him if you don't want them on your main Mages/Sages thanks to his high weapon ranks, same applies to Callil.  I sometimes deploy one of them for just that, and it's handy.

Yea, I remember the agony of trying to train up Soren's weapon ranks to ger siege tomes. Do not try to go multi element in Path of Radiance. Stick to one if you want to have any hope of actually using high level magic.

[FailWood]

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yea, I remember the agony of trying to train up Soren's weapon ranks to ger siege tomes. Do not try to go multi element in Path of Radiance. Stick to one if you want to have any hope of actually using high level magic.

I already did one time, so I know the pain too.  Soren was my main Sage and wanted him to use Rexbolt in Endgame.  He reached B rank in Thunder in Chapter 26, then I used the two Arms Scrolls I saved to have him reach S rank.  I can imagine the agony of trying to get Tormod up to S Thunder, as he also starts with E Thunder like Soren does.

[SnowFire]

To talk a bit more on the Path of Radiance crew, I think Rolf vs. Bastian/Lucia/(combat Elincia) comes down to different scenarios.  If we assume that we are in some sort of scuffed Maniac Mode playthrough that's suffered unintended casualties and desperately needs to deploy fresh bodies from the bench, the Crimean knights (excluding Geoffrey, who's genuinely good) are okay as role-fillers (and for Elincia, as a staff user, as noted).  Meanwhile, Rolf will be a poor replacement for a dead Oscar indeed, and will not be a worthy investment of XP / forges if you're trying to fix a troubled playthrough.  Also, Maniac BEXP is quite reduced compared to Hard.  So Rolf is clearly worse in such a scenario.  On the other hand, in the scenario of a player who really knows their PoR, is not suffering surprise casualties, and just wants to see what a lesser-used unit can do...  Rolf has the advantage of simply existing in such a case, and being in a game where favoritism is reasonably powerful.  So sure, Rolf at least gets to do what little tricks he does have.  (Such a player can also save-scum some good BEXP level-ups in a way that late-joining prepromos can't...  granted, this kind of save-scumming BEXP level ups is even better on Knight Ward'd early joining cavalry with range-1 counters who can now crush entire armies, of course, but it's still something Rolf has that Bastian/Lucia don't.)  Meanwhile, such a skilled player likely has already built and protected better Sages / Swordmasters if they wanted them, so subbing in Bastian and Lucia is just a downgrade to what this skilled playthrough already has.  It's not like they can front-line on Clash! even with some favoritism.

As a side comment, while we're ragging on archers, FE7 Wil is pretty awful.  He normally evades worst-of lists because he joins early enough to offer some chip damage, but his early-game contributions are nowhere near as notable as Actually Important early-game units like Marcus or Oswin.  And if we look at mid-game and beyond, he's definitely one of the least rewarding characters to build.  There's some value in having one archer, but Rebecca is basically just better than him, and she's not even good, and then Louise joins later.  There's also stuff like Geitz or promoted Lyn to compete with.  Nino will at least have some payoff if you give her some favoritism (best candidate for Afa's Drops!!1!), but what's even the point of favoritism on Wil?  While I don't agree with Shadow Mir's logic about diminishing returns in having too many flyers in Fates, there's definitely diminishing returns in too many FE7 archers.  (Yeah, Karla still "wins" this for FE7 as a whole, but something to be said for the contest of "worst Eliwood mode character" between Wil, Nino, early-promoted Wallace, and friends.)

Edited May 7, 2022 by SnowFire

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I've been rating Rolf assuming Hard Mode, and an "I reset if they die" approach. If we were looking at Maniac Mode instead, or considering an Ironman playthrough, then Rolf's stock would fall. Probably. I've never played Maniac Mode.

"Worst unit on EHM" is an interesting one, although this bit

48 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

(Yeah, Karla still "wins" this for FE7 as a whole, but something to be said for the contest of "worst Eliwood mode character" between Wil, Nino, early-promoted Wallace, and friends.)

has me scratching my head. Wouldn't an unpromoted Wallace be worse than a promoted one? It's not as though he has time to gain more than 19 levels. Promoted, he gets better stats, more move, and Hand Axes. Unpromoted, he gains more EXP and is easier to Rescue-carry. I dunno, if I were trying to make Wallace "work" on EHM, I'd prefer getting the promoted version. Not that either version is at all good.

As for Rebecca vs. Wil, I've already revealed my own misconception about her starting ranks, so I should probably play FE7 again before definitively finding either one to be less trash than the other.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Rath should also be mentioned as an archer who is actually rewarding to build; not only do his raw stats tend to be better than Wil/Rebecca's (more speed than the former, more str than the latter), but the extra move and sword access are both nice. I agree that Wil/Rebecca both feel like earlygame-only units as such, and Wil's window of worth is extremely small unless we give him credit for Lyn Mode.

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All fair points. Chapter 10 is kind of weird - if you're playing for stealth, then combat and healing don't really matter, only mobility and Rescue utility. He can potentially help Oscar or Boysld get the bosskill, so that's... something. He's probably a better bring than your 5-move units (Rhys, Soren, Ilyana, Mist), and perhaps Mia.

The boss is a general with 14 def, which poses major problems for Rolf with his low Atk and lack of weakness-hitting weapons. And the difference between 5 and 6 move is largely moot; both need to be rescued to get anywhere if doing stealth, in my experience. I'd argue he's probably straight-up the worst unit to deploy on that map; at least Mia can do a little damage to him with the Armourslayer.

15 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

Tbh I used to think Gilbert is the worst unit in the game until I saw how players like Mekkah made full use of him, he makes a good emergency Wyvern/Paladin filler that is decently bulky, can do damage with Brave Weapons, use smite/rally defense so he does have a place in LTC and he's certainly better than Ashe or Caspar who does nothing at base and requires resources to become usable later on.

FE16: Ashe: At least Anna can be recruited late as a filler and have Flying Rescue utility, Caspar will eventually become a decent Warmaster/Wyvern. Ashe however just sucks from start to finish, bad bases/growths, no good Combat Arts/Skills, and he also leaves your army for 3 chapters in 3 out of 4 routes in the game

The issue is that anyone can be a paladin or wyvern with a brave weapon and a repositional skill by that point, and unlike Gilbert they can all have Death Blow and optionally Hit+20 as well. With the adjutant system and how much FE3H curves exp, you can't even claim "needs exp" as a negative; reaching Level 20 is pre-TS is an absolute given. The only meaningful resource that goes into characters is active instruction, but the thresholds needed to match Gilbert's base ranks is just so trivial that most characters can get there with relatively little of it. And even if you value a midgame joiner for AM who saves you a bit of training, Gilbert is already behind Seteth and Alois in line for this questionable niche. I'm sure you can find a video of getting use out of Gilbert; 'tis 3H, after all, and anyone can be useful.

Re Ashe, he only leaves your army on two routes. Not that you should use him out of house anyway - the only pure-gameplay reason to use lower-tier characters like this is for in-house support benefit and making Chapter 13 easier. That said, if you say "Caspar eventually becomes a decent Wyvern", I'm gonna reply with "so does Ashe". Due to Wyvern Rider's silly base Str, Ashe only trails Caspar by 0-2 Str (Level 20-40), and has 4-5 more speed during that same time frame (Wyvern Lord base helps Caspar a bit, but doesn't close the gap)... and doesn't have an authority bane or bow bane. And of course, there's a case that the best class for him isn't Wyvern, but Sniper, something Caspar (and Gilbert, for that matter) can't do nearly as easily.